LDS Freedom Forum

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:30 am
I have been in leadership positions in the church most of my life. I have seen poor members faithfully pay tithing. If they lack food or rent, we are quick to help. I have never seen a faithful tithe payer go hungry or homeless in the church. That is one of the main responsibilities of a Bishop, Elder's Quorum President, and Relief Society President. To care for the needy and faithful members of the Church.

I too have served in some of these positions you refer to; and while I too have not seen them lack in food or rent, let's be clear about why. Poor members may be paying into the tithing pool, but their needs, if necessary, are being met from an additional contributions pool: the ward or stake fast offering pool (also the storehouse) or from other additional efforts of their local brothers and sisters, not tithing.

How were you able to pull from the tithing pool to meet their needs?

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 2:21 pm

Dusty Wanderer wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 2:10 pm
There are many members that would welcome $160k as much more than merely a "pittance".

So, your position is that taking up the cross shouldn't be a sacrifice... or not be that of great a sacrifice? Or is it that "their callings" are merely corporate positions deserving of greater compensation? It's unclear to me.

LOL. Gnat squinting must be a favorite pastime on LDAFF.

Do the Apostle and prophets sacrifice? Yes. All their time, talents, and past salaries. They give all their time to their callings. Only the blind do not see what they have sacrificed.

That much is obviously not necessary though.

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 1:50 pm "This statement from someone who knows isn't enough" is... an argument I guess. You simply don't want to believe it. I'm not sure there could be better evidence than a statement from Pres. Hinckley on the issue.

He wasn’t being strictly honest though.

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 2:23 pm

Have you got anything more constructive to add to LDSFF discussions, or pure mockery which feels like lashing out due to you being backed into a corner because of your weak position.

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 2:04 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 12:56 pm

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:52 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:43 am
These are men of God, not corporate businessmen.
And most of them gave up nothing because their careers we over. These are old men.
Why do they need anything in their 70's 80's and 90's? They certainly wouldn't be pulling down salaries of any figures at that age. It's indefensible.

How many men in their 70's 80's and 90's still work 10-12 hour days? If they did, they would still be making 7 figure incomes. Most men their age would be retired and play golf or sitting around enjoying their retirement rather than sitting in meetings all day long or traveling around the world teaching and witnessing of Christ on every continent, clime, or region.

Work!
Turning up at the odd stake conference and speaking for 20 minutes? Attending a meeting for a couple of hours once a week and attending general conference twice a year, and perhaps a temple dedication once in a while. Tough life.

If you think that's all that an apostle does you have another thing coming.

Elaborate then.

Luke wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 2:27 pm Have you got anything more constructive to add to LDSFF discussions, or pure mockery which feels like lashing out due to you being backed into a corner because of your weak position.

I love to illustrate absurdity with absurdity.

Dusty Wanderer wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 2:22 pm I too have served in some of these positions you refer to; and while I too have not seen them lack in food or rent, let's be clear about why. Poor members may be paying into the tithing pool, but their needs, if necessary, are being met from an additional contributions pool: the ward or stake fast offering pool (also the storehouse) or from other additional efforts of their local brothers and sisters, not tithing.

How were you able to pull from the tithing pool to meet their needs?

Huh, did I say that tithing was used or that their needs were met?

I wanna ask the TBMs out there. Set aside church history, the scriptures, prophetic utterances, etc., and ask yourself this question. Do you feel justified in requiring money for salvation from a person who lives below the poverty level?

Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 12:35 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 12:31 pm Also, tell me this, when Christ teaches we can receive Him and His salvation without money, without price, why is it required to enter the temple to receive "saving" ordinances?

God has commanded that we pay tithing. Can we be saved of we refuse to obey his commandments?

but there is still the question of how to tithe. Church Inc/policy side makes it black and white in their favor. IDK if that is God's actual intent. Today's policy is simply not the same as when the revelation was revealed.

So it is not a surprise that at the very least people feel like they are between a rock and a hard place concerning tithing.

I relate a personal story. Back in the day my wife and I had good jobs and salaries. Our combined income was equal to at least one of the brotheren's stipends (tru story). Then we moved to a new country with grand plans, Well, we hit a decent phase in our lives and humbly learned much. During that time it felt wrong to pay tithing when some months we had to borrow money to pay rent (and by borrow I mean borrow because we paid it back). Seriously I was receiving a whopping 600-700 bucks of unemployment a month with a wife and three kids. After we moved neither of us had jobs for the first year and a half. Then my wife (after being the president of a small business in the US) went to waitressing (and that's not the half of the lower lows). Anyhow, that went on for a couple of years. I stayed home with the kids (while also applying for jobs) while she would leave Monday afternoons and come back late Saturday nights. Fun times...you should try it. Anyhow, I'll say it again, paying tithes, under those circumstances, was not fulfilling, and feels wrong to this day thinking about now. But I bucked up like a good little camper and did my duty.

Truthfully I never think about it, and only just reflected on it. I didn't think about before this post at all. But since the subject came up and now I have reflected back I think I paid it because of a what-if guilt trip. I have a testimony about the Gospel of Christ, the truthfulness of the BoM, of Joseph Smith as a prophet seer, and revelator, but I never got one about tithing that is true. I think I felt, what if this time I didn't pay and this was the time I needed to in order to receive some unrealized yet hoped-for blessing. I couldn't even really afford the gas for regular attendance to the Temple (FYI right now gas here is like $9 bucks a gallon, normally $6 or so) but I had to pay tithing to keep my recommend. I really didn't do anything. No new clothes for years, maybe a couple of movies a year, no new "toys", no vacations for years (I didn't see my family for over 6 years), etc. Man, you know how often I ate french toast? Almost daily because our neighbor had a child who worked at a grocery store and they'd give us the bread that the store was throwing out, hahaha. When you get dried out bread making pan french toast helps soften it up. As does soaking it in soup or breaking it into pieces in your oatmeal. I'm sure that you'll call that bread my blessing, my mana, but let's try to be serious.

I'm not looking for pity and I am also not complaining at all. For me, it was what it was, and today is what it is. I just think that after walking in those shoes for some years I had something to share on the matter. Usually, I'll just stick to doctrine though, and understanding data, information, patterns, etc.

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 2:16 pm

iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 12:38 pm Why did you shift the argument away from those who get paid to those who DON'T get paid? We were discussing 70's and up, who get the $160k/yr.

I won't address the fact that bishops, stake presidents, and even patriarchs USED to get paid for their service. The early church actually looked a heckuva lot like a pyramid scheme, to be honest, and partly the cause of their perilous financial situation for many years. I wasn't even discussing that. But you shifted the focus mid-paragraph.

Bit of a straw-man, don't you think?

How did I shift the argument. I explained how the times had changed from the early days of Christ where the apostles 'left their nets' and had "no extra cloak, no slush fund, no "stipend". The world is quite different today. Now most of God's servants do not 'leave their nets' and serve in the Church part time while working fulltime jobs.

How would apostles travel to the far corners of the earth if they still went 'without purse, and scrip' as the apostles of old. We don't lodge preachers in our homes anymore as was the custom in ancient times. The current prophet and apostles put in 50, 60, 70 hour a weeks. How would they support a household?

The Murmurers love to complain and have done so from time immemorial and will continue to murmur up until Christ's Coming in glory.

This gnat has been dissected and all it's hairs counted. Well done!

I think we're talking past each other somewhat, so gnats notwithstanding I guess we will agree to disagree. Suffice it to say I think there are a lot of "live by faith" messages re: God and His servants that could be applied to our day.

Cheers.
IWS

My testimony of tithing is simple. To meet my family’s needs while paying tithing I went into $30,000 in credit card debt. Within five years of not paying tithing our family’s credit card debt was eliminated. Instead of paying tithing after that we helped pay for church missions and college. I missed my kids temple weddings, but came to know more about Christ.

Dusty Wanderer wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 2:22 pm

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:30 am
I have been in leadership positions in the church most of my life. I have seen poor members faithfully pay tithing. If they lack food or rent, we are quick to help. I have never seen a faithful tithe payer go hungry or homeless in the church. That is one of the main responsibilities of a Bishop, Elder's Quorum President, and Relief Society President. To care for the needy and faithful members of the Church.

I too have served in some of these positions you refer to; and while I too have not seen them lack in food or rent, let's be clear about why. Poor members may be paying into the tithing pool, but their needs, if necessary, are being met from an additional contributions pool: the ward or stake fast offering pool (also the storehouse) or from other additional efforts of their local brothers and sisters, not tithing.

How were you able to pull from the tithing pool to meet their needs?

This ^^^^.

Anecdotal, but I recently served as a ward finance clerk. Compared to what was taken in from tithes and fast offerings, the amount paid out to provide for the poor was roughly 2.5% per year. If you include the ward budget, 3.5% of our expenses were from local activities and the remaining 96.5% went to SLC. As I was also a stake auditor, I can confirm we were by no means an unusual ward.

Granted, most people pay hefty tithing instead of hefty fast offerings (which actually go to the poor). Proportionally, I'd say fast offerings amounted to less than 10% of tithes. Why? Because not paying fast offerings doesn't disqualify you for a temple recommend.

It's tempting to conflate all tithes/offerings/humanitarian contributions as belonging to the same family, but really they're not. Tithing is for church operations; fast offerings are for the poor. That's just the way it works, doctrinally and all.

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 2:21 pm

Dusty Wanderer wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 2:10 pm
There are many members that would welcome $160k as much more than merely a "pittance".

So, your position is that taking up the cross shouldn't be a sacrifice... or not be that of great a sacrifice? Or is it that "their callings" are merely corporate positions deserving of greater compensation? It's unclear to me.

LOL. Gnat squinting must be a favorite pastime on LDAFF.

Do the Apostle and prophets sacrifice? Yes. All their time, talents, and past salaries. They give all their time to their callings. Only the blind do not see what they have sacrificed.

Nope, nice try. I'm hardly an apostate, even by your convenient appeal to it. If I were an apostate, then my stake president is doing a horrible job of discerning and extending callings typically reserved for non-apostates.

I'm not questioning their dedication or sacrifices, their past salaries or their current reductions in pay. What I questioned was your position only, to clarify it. Perhaps I should refrain from asking you uncomfortable questions in the future.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 2:46 pm I wanna ask the TBMs out there. Set aside church history, the scriptures, prophetic utterances, etc., and ask yourself this question. Do you feel justified in requiring money for salvation from a person who lives below the poverty level?

God requires sacrifice from everyone. Fortunately for the dirt poor, the sacrifice that is asked of them is less than that asked of the rich.

It's ironic that in a board that is against socialism, you demand that the Church accept socialistic practices.

Luke wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 2:26 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 1:50 pm "This statement from someone who knows isn't enough" is... an argument I guess. You simply don't want to believe it. I'm not sure there could be better evidence than a statement from Pres. Hinckley on the issue.

He wasn’t being strictly honest though.

Oh? What was he being dishonest about?

I would add that his statement is consistent with what was put in the financial disclosures, back when they included them in the conference reports.

The issue with many is that the meaning of tithing changed over the years and there was zero revelation to point out why. They just changed it and said move on. The apostles suddenly didn't have to pay because they voted on it. The meaning of increase changed from what it had meant when the Lord revealed the Law of Tithing. The understanding of surplus even changed. The Lord said it was a standing law. So, where is the new revelation from the Lord that said that it was to change? If we are a church of revelation, which I believe we are to be, then where is the revelation? If tomorrow the prophet or apostles were to say that they don't think the 10th commandment is a commandment anymore wouldn't we ask why and ask to see where the Lord said that he rescinded it? I get that things can change and we are a living church but if the commandment came directly from the Lord then He is the ONLY one that can change it. Inspiration doesn't work. They aren't prophets, seers, and inspirators. It has to be from revelation.

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 3:05 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 2:46 pm I wanna ask the TBMs out there. Set aside church history, the scriptures, prophetic utterances, etc., and ask yourself this question. Do you feel justified in requiring money for salvation from a person who lives below the poverty level?

God requires sacrifice from everyone. Fortunately for the dirt poor, the sacrifice that is asked of them is less than that asked of the rich.

It's ironic that in a board that is against socialism, you demand that the Church accept socialistic practices.

You've allowed yourself to be convinced that the sacrifice of the poor is monetary. You've completely overlooked one of Christ's greatest gospels in caring for the poor.

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 2:44 pm

Dusty Wanderer wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 2:22 pm I too have served in some of these positions you refer to; and while I too have not seen them lack in food or rent, let's be clear about why. Poor members may be paying into the tithing pool, but their needs, if necessary, are being met from an additional contributions pool: the ward or stake fast offering pool (also the storehouse) or from other additional efforts of their local brothers and sisters, not tithing.

How were you able to pull from the tithing pool to meet their needs?

Huh, did I say that tithing was used or that their needs were met?

Well, it's hard to see here what you were saying because you trimmed it out of the quote above. But, yes, tithing was the whole context of your post so I assumed you meant tithing.

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 1:55 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 12:56 pm
Work!
Turning up at the odd stake conference and speaking for 20 minutes? Attending a meeting for a couple of hours once a week and attending general conference twice a year, and perhaps a temple dedication once in a while. Tough life.

You obviously don't realize how much time, service, and preparation our church leaders put in on the ward, stake, or regional level. If this was your experience, then I'd say you were a poor and unvaliant servant.

I probably put in around 40+ hours a week on average as a serving bishop, on top of my full-time employment. Never received a penny. That's fine, no complaints. I guarantee the leading brethren of the church do not work harder or longer than a serving bishop or stake president. And I can definitely guarantee their roles are not nearly as emotionally draining either.
They do not need $160,000 stipend, nor to they need the rumoured $1million golden hello when they're called either.

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 2:04 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 12:56 pm

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:52 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:43 am
These are men of God, not corporate businessmen.
And most of them gave up nothing because their careers we over. These are old men.
Why do they need anything in their 70's 80's and 90's? They certainly wouldn't be pulling down salaries of any figures at that age. It's indefensible.

How many men in their 70's 80's and 90's still work 10-12 hour days? If they did, they would still be making 7 figure incomes. Most men their age would be retired and play golf or sitting around enjoying their retirement rather than sitting in meetings all day long or traveling around the world teaching and witnessing of Christ on every continent, clime, or region.

Work!
Turning up at the odd stake conference and speaking for 20 minutes? Attending a meeting for a couple of hours once a week and attending general conference twice a year, and perhaps a temple dedication once in a while. Tough life.

If you think that's all that an apostle does you have another thing coming.

What else do they do?

On an aside. The way we approach tithing is almost like bribery. IF I pay off God, God will pay me off in super nice dividends - I'm pretty sure that was not the intent of God. Again, it goes to my point that it was teh priests who were robbing God and the people through their use of tithes- they were using it for their own well-being (above and beyond what was expected, because to be clear, they were to receive sustenance from those tithes, it was a scriptural commandment). However, their use of the money or property was wrong. Back to the main point, thinking that paying tithing is "fire insurance" or "keeps us from the blessings of God" for the sake of paying tithing is a wrong and false tradition. Tithing is to be from the heart. As the scripture says if a man gives a gift but does not want to do so, it is as if he had never given the gift in the first place. The Lord mentions tithing as a surplus because it is to be voluntary, not to be forced or it is a tax on salvation. IF one gives from the heart, then they will receive blessings, but whatever they are, it isn't to "get gain." God does not enjoy when those in position of authority "devour the widows..." and the poor and the orphans. May the Lord ask you to do so even when you don't have, I believe He may, but it is almost always personal and is a test of faith, it is rarely or if ever initiated by another person. My two cents.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 3:35 pm

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 2:04 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 12:56 pm

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:52 am

How many men in their 70's 80's and 90's still work 10-12 hour days? If they did, they would still be making 7 figure incomes. Most men their age would be retired and play golf or sitting around enjoying their retirement rather than sitting in meetings all day long or traveling around the world teaching and witnessing of Christ on every continent, clime, or region.

Work!
Turning up at the odd stake conference and speaking for 20 minutes? Attending a meeting for a couple of hours once a week and attending general conference twice a year, and perhaps a temple dedication once in a while. Tough life.

If you think that's all that an apostle does you have another thing coming.

What else do they do?

Travel around the world as part of their ministerial responsibilities, plus all the costs associated with travel.
Oversee Church departments at home whenever they are at home (which is quite rare outside of July).
Preside over stake and area conferences.
Interview prospective stake presidents and counselors alongside 70s when they go to stake conferences. Interview prospective Area and General Seventies.
Prepare for and give General Conference talks once every six months.
Visit government officials around the world to talk about the Church's programs within the country.
Dedicate new lands for the preaching of the Gospel.
Attend (and sometimes officiate in) temple dedications and occasionally groundbreakings.
Minister unto Church members and non-members the world over in addition to their scheduled workdays.

Fortunately for the dirt poor, the sacrifice that is asked of them is less than that asked of the rich

This is incorrect.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 3:34 pm

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 1:55 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 12:56 pm
Work!
Turning up at the odd stake conference and speaking for 20 minutes? Attending a meeting for a couple of hours once a week and attending general conference twice a year, and perhaps a temple dedication once in a while. Tough life.

You obviously don't realize how much time, service, and preparation our church leaders put in on the ward, stake, or regional level. If this was your experience, then I'd say you were a poor and unvaliant servant.

I probably put in around 40+ hours a week on average as a serving bishop, on top of my full-time employment. Never received a penny. That's fine, no complaints. I guarantee the leading brethren of the church do not work harder or longer than a serving bishop or stake president. And I can definitely guarantee their roles are not nearly as emotionally draining either.
They do not need $160,000 stipend, nor to they need the rumoured $1million golden hello when they're called either.

I totally disagree. It's funny how an ex-bishop can criticize the service of another. I know members who lived in the same ward as one of the apostles and he related how much time they spend on their callings. It IS full time service. 50-70 hours a week. Which BTW is more than a bishop or stake president.

I'll pass on the rumor mill. Favorite pastime of murmurers.