LDS Freedom Forum

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 12:17 pm

iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:50 am

Right, right, no argument about their qualifications. None at all, really. I suppose the irony is the "no purse or scrip" and "gold and silver have I none" arguments have been tossed out and in exchange, we have "stipends" equivalent to over 3x the median US salary and about 10x the poverty line. It's interesting for men of God to estimate themselves so much more valuable.

If the Prophet and apostles are equivalent to a corporate board of directors, their average salary would be $300,000 to $500,000. Not $160k.

There is a thread throughout Christ's ministry, and that of his apostles, wherein He placed Himself in physical want/need so that others could serve Him. When He sent His apostles out, he made that a requirement for them too - no extra cloak, no slush fund, no "stipend". The idea is for the servant to not be greater than the Master in terms of wealth or apparel. He made it this way in order that service would go both ways - the community would serve the apostles, and the apostles would serve the community. It's a mutual dependency kinda thing. Therefore, Peter et al "left their nets" and "became fishers of men". They didn't leave their nets for bigger nets or to open shopping malls and oversee real estate portfolios.

I don't think $160k is a big deal. But I think it misses the bigger picture, and it certainly misses the point of everything Christ taught during his ministry.

The Apostles did leave their nets and gave up high paying jobs to serve full time as prophets and apostles.

As for going without purse or script that was a custom of the time of Christ and even at the beginning of the restoration and is no longer practiced. Teachers would travel and ask to stay in homes of those thy taught, ask to be fed, and even ask for cloths from those they taught. We live in a totally different world today. The great majority of Church officials are part time and have not 'left their nets.' Bishops, Elder's Quorum presidents, and Relief Society Presidents put in 10, 20, or even 30 hours a week to fulfill their duties. Not to mentions Stake Presidencies and High Counselors. None have 'left their nets.' We work fulltime jobs and work part time for the Lord. Is that right? That's how it has been organized in our day.

One further note, and I apologize for the lengthiness of my reply. The widow and her 2 mites. That was a donation to the temple treasury - it was purely voluntary, not anything to do with tithing. The Savior noted that she put in every last cent she had. And what did he say next? Not one stone would be left upon another in that temple. Why not? Because the priestly caste was literally devouring widows' houses, and the priestly caste was entirely corrupt. In short, her contribution was given to her credit, but to the condemnation of those who received it because they literally starved her and her family for it. This should serve as a warning to any religious institution that would rather deprive the poor than give to them.

Well said.

No one forced the widow to give her last penny. She did it voluntarily and was blessed for it. The others gave of their wealth and received their 'reward' for that too. The reward of fame and the acclaim of men!

The Church does not 'deprive the poor.' The faithful poor give willingly of the little they have because they have faith that God will bless them. And He does! The Church looks after the faithful poor to make sure they do not go hungry or homeless.

If the Apostles had to go without purse or scrip today their influence would be largely limited to the USA.

Ain't no country going to let them in to their areas to preach the gospel without money.

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 12:26 pm

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 12:17 pm

iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:50 am

Right, right, no argument about their qualifications. None at all, really. I suppose the irony is the "no purse or scrip" and "gold and silver have I none" arguments have been tossed out and in exchange, we have "stipends" equivalent to over 3x the median US salary and about 10x the poverty line. It's interesting for men of God to estimate themselves so much more valuable.

If the Prophet and apostles are equivalent to a corporate board of directors, their average salary would be $300,000 to $500,000. Not $160k.

There is a thread throughout Christ's ministry, and that of his apostles, wherein He placed Himself in physical want/need so that others could serve Him. When He sent His apostles out, he made that a requirement for them too - no extra cloak, no slush fund, no "stipend". The idea is for the servant to not be greater than the Master in terms of wealth or apparel. He made it this way in order that service would go both ways - the community would serve the apostles, and the apostles would serve the community. It's a mutual dependency kinda thing. Therefore, Peter et al "left their nets" and "became fishers of men". They didn't leave their nets for bigger nets or to open shopping malls and oversee real estate portfolios.

I don't think $160k is a big deal. But I think it misses the bigger picture, and it certainly misses the point of everything Christ taught during his ministry.

The Apostles did leave their nets and gave up high paying jobs to serve full time as prophets and apostles.

As for going without purse or script that was a custom of the time of Christ and even at the beginning of the restoration and is no longer practiced. Teachers would travel and ask to stay in homes of those thy taught, ask to be fed, and even ask for cloths from those they taught. We live in a totally different world today. The great majority of Church officials are part time and have not 'left their nets.' Bishops, Elder's Quorum presidents, and Relief Society Presidents put in 10, 20, or even 30 hours a week to fulfill their duties. Not to mentions Stake Presidencies and High Counselors. None have 'left their nets.' We work fulltime jobs and work part time for the Lord. Is that right? That's how it has been organized in our day.

One further note, and I apologize for the lengthiness of my reply. The widow and her 2 mites. That was a donation to the temple treasury - it was purely voluntary, not anything to do with tithing. The Savior noted that she put in every last cent she had. And what did he say next? Not one stone would be left upon another in that temple. Why not? Because the priestly caste was literally devouring widows' houses, and the priestly caste was entirely corrupt. In short, her contribution was given to her credit, but to the condemnation of those who received it because they literally starved her and her family for it. This should serve as a warning to any religious institution that would rather deprive the poor than give to them.

Well said.

No one forced the widow to give her last penny. She did it voluntarily and was blessed for it. The others gave of their wealth and received their 'reward' for that too. The reward of fame and the acclaim of men!

The Church does not 'deprive the poor.' The faithful poor give willingly of the little they have because they have faith that God will bless them. And He does! The Church looks after the faithful poor to make sure they do not go hungry or homeless.

If the Apostles had to go without purse or scrip today their influence would be largely limited to the USA.

Ain't no country going to let them in to their areas to preach the gospel without money.

You always provide the best worldly reasons for why the Lord's work couldn't happen without us being an extremely worldly church.

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:30 am How much is tithing on zero dollars? Zero.

So if you can't pay rent or put food on the table, why does the church ask you to pay tithing? You essentially have no money.

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:30 am I have been in leadership positions in the church most of my life. I have seen poor members faithfully pay tithing. If they lack food or rent, we are quick to help. I have never seen a faithful tithe payer go hungry or homeless in the church. That is one of the main responsibilities of a Bishop, Elder's Quorum President, and Relief Society President. To care for the needy and faithful members of the Church.

Asking poor people, as I described above, to pay tithing, yet still cover their basic cost of living, keeps them in a perpetual state of poverty to the church.

Also, tell me this, when Christ teaches we can receive Him and His salvation without money, without price, why is it required to enter the temple to receive "saving" ordinances? (I don't agree that they are "saving" ordinances btw, since the church changed AoF #4 after Joseph was murdered.)

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 12:31 pm Also, tell me this, when Christ teaches we can receive Him and His salvation without money, without price, why is it required to enter the temple to receive "saving" ordinances?

God has commanded that we pay tithing. Can we be saved of we refuse to obey his commandments?

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 12:17 pmWe live in a totally different world today. The great majority of Church officials are part time and have not 'left their nets.' Bishops, Elder's Quorum presidents, and Relief Society Presidents put in 10, 20, or even 30 hours a week to fulfill their duties. Not to mentions Stake Presidencies and High Counselors. None have 'left their nets.' We work fulltime jobs and work part time for the Lord. Is that right? That's how it has been organized in our day.

Why did you shift the argument away from those who get paid to those who DON'T get paid? We were discussing 70's and up, who get the $160k/yr.

I won't address the fact that bishops, stake presidents, and even patriarchs USED to get paid for their service. The early church actually looked a heckuva lot like a pyramid scheme, to be honest, and partly the cause of their perilous financial situation for many years. I wasn't even discussing that. But you shifted the focus mid-paragraph.

Bit of a straw-man, don't you think?

Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 12:35 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 12:31 pm Also, tell me this, when Christ teaches we can receive Him and His salvation without money, without price, why is it required to enter the temple to receive "saving" ordinances?

God has commanded that we pay tithing. Can we be saved of we refuse to obey his commandments?

You use this reasoning all the time, and IMO, you misapply Christ's teachings.

So, I'm a bit confused by both sides of the earliest parts of discussion on this forum (before it got into what exec salaries might be, and I'm sorry for those who think $160k/year would change their lives). Initially the discussion was how much tithe and who, then it seems ok since Thinker said LDS church is evil and money given there isn't to god) so add to who?

Tithing is a commandment to everyone. But the amount if tithing and determining what is a full tithe has always been left to the individual. If all you have to pay is a mite, pay it and move on. The LDS Church never checked on what you determined to pay.

Take Abraham as the example. He paid 10% on the loot he retrieved from the drunken Syrian army (not his own money and cattle as he surely didn't carry that with him on his quest to save Lot's family) then he returned the remaining 90% to the 5 cities. He paid this to Melchizedek, not to god, and he was formally (who again?), King of Salem? Wandering HP?

Anyone on here, that is US and thinks gross is the value, is really, really stupid or lost or something, as anyone with any business knows this is impossible. Lets say I own a gas station, I make 2% on every gallon, and sell a million gallons, I have gross of $4M and useful take of $8K before paying anyone. Now these numbers are silly but point out what I'm saying that gross is a useless number. So, in this case you say, net of gross. Ok, that means you let the IRS decide your income (i mean it depends on what you're allowed to write-off after all). I know folks with small businesses that seem to make about what I made working for the man, and the IRS says they had much less net of gross or income that me, because I cannot write off damned thing any more, so god wants more from me on the same than from them. Anyway, the gross (or net of gross) is mostly BS number.

Now you can read all you want from LDS persons, but the official policy for as long as I've been paying tithing (65 plus years) is I get to determine what "increase" is, sure leaders throw out guidelines, personal opinions, etc.. but NEVER has any bishop EVER asked me how I determine my tithe. That is just a fact for both folks on Atticus' side that think it is gross or Reluctant's that think the poor must pay 10% of their nothing.

As to who to pay it. if you're a temple worthy LDS person, it is LDS church. Period. If you're LDS but don't want a recommend, or are not LDS, do like Biden would do and give it to your son and call it god, that is up to you. If you made a covenant with god and want those blessings then honor the covenant you made, it doesn't matter what the other-side does, not one tiny bit.

Lastly, I'm pretty tired of hearing about how the law of consecration was the original law. That is BS and LDS story telling. Only a few were in the original "united order", i.e. 14 if I recall. And it failed, the rules were not written, it was administered improperly, and no one was incentivized to continue, except those selling land to potential new investors. Further, there is no indication that either Enoch or Nephites lived such a method. the words are "no poor among them". Shoot, I can just kick out, kill or blackball every poor person and get the same results. I.e. the poor were compelled to contribute (when able) and those unable received, but for Enoch, what do you think the retirement age was anyway? 950 years old?

And where exactly did the $160k figure come from? Sorry, I missed the reference to a real figure?

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:52 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:43 am
These are men of God, not corporate businessmen.
And most of them gave up nothing because their careers we over. These are old men.
Why do they need anything in their 70's 80's and 90's? They certainly wouldn't be pulling down salaries of any figures at that age. It's indefensible.

How many men in their 70's 80's and 90's still work 10-12 hour days? If they did, they would still be making 7 figure incomes. Most men their age would be retired and play golf or sitting around enjoying their retirement rather than sitting in meetings all day long or traveling around the world teaching and witnessing of Christ on every continent, clime, or region.

Work!
Turning up at the odd stake conference and speaking for 20 minutes? Attending a meeting for a couple of hours once a week and attending general conference twice a year, and perhaps a temple dedication once in a while. Tough life.

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:52 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:43 am

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:14 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:17 am
I have no problem with expenses being met. For example, if an apostle is to visit another country the church should buy his plane ticket and pay for his accommodation etc. But why should he receive $160,000 stipend on top of that?
And these men are usually quite well off, having had successful careers etc, and are receiving pensions and other income as well.

$160,000 is a pittance compared to the salary they would receive in their past or future careers. Some gave up seven figure incomes to accept their callings.

Besides, which leader of a large corporation makes a paltry $160K?

These are men of God, not corporate businessmen.
And most of them gave up nothing because their careers we over. These are old men.
Why do they need anything in their 70's 80's and 90's? They certainly wouldn't be pulling down salaries of any figures at that age. It's indefensible.

They're old today. That doesn't mean they didn't give up careers. Elder Anderson was a GA at 42.

But who cares? They're not paid by tithing.

Of course they are, don't be so naive.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 12:57 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:52 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:43 am

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:14 am

$160,000 is a pittance compared to the salary they would receive in their past or future careers. Some gave up seven figure incomes to accept their callings.

Besides, which leader of a large corporation makes a paltry $160K?

These are men of God, not corporate businessmen.
And most of them gave up nothing because their careers we over. These are old men.
Why do they need anything in their 70's 80's and 90's? They certainly wouldn't be pulling down salaries of any figures at that age. It's indefensible.

They're old today. That doesn't mean they didn't give up careers. Elder Anderson was a GA at 42.

But who cares? They're not paid by tithing.

Of course they are, don't be so naive.

Nope. The 15's salaries come from Desert Books and the like, not tithing.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 1:12 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 12:57 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:52 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:43 am

These are men of God, not corporate businessmen.
And most of them gave up nothing because their careers we over. These are old men.
Why do they need anything in their 70's 80's and 90's? They certainly wouldn't be pulling down salaries of any figures at that age. It's indefensible.

They're old today. That doesn't mean they didn't give up careers. Elder Anderson was a GA at 42.

But who cares? They're not paid by tithing.

Of course they are, don't be so naive.

Nope. The 15's salaries come from Desert Books and the like, not tithing.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

Prove it.
Spoiler alert: The link you posted doesn't.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 1:24 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 1:12 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 12:57 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:52 am

They're old today. That doesn't mean they didn't give up careers. Elder Anderson was a GA at 42.

But who cares? They're not paid by tithing.

Of course they are, don't be so naive.

Nope. The 15's salaries come from Desert Books and the like, not tithing.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

Prove it.
Spoiler alert: The link you posted doesn't.

"I should like to add, parenthetically for your information, that the living allowances given the General Authorities, which are very modest in comparison with executive compensation in industry and the professions, come from this business income and not from the tithing of the people."

I mean.....

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 12:52 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 12:35 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 12:31 pm Also, tell me this, when Christ teaches we can receive Him and His salvation without money, without price, why is it required to enter the temple to receive "saving" ordinances?

God has commanded that we pay tithing. Can we be saved of we refuse to obey his commandments?

You use this reasoning all the time, and IMO, you misapply Christ's teachings.

Please explain how you believe I'm miss applying Christ's teachings.

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 1:31 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 1:24 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 1:12 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 12:57 pm

Of course they are, don't be so naive.

Nope. The 15's salaries come from Desert Books and the like, not tithing.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

Prove it.
Spoiler alert: The link you posted doesn't.

"I should like to add, parenthetically for your information, that the living allowances given the General Authorities, which are very modest in comparison with executive compensation in industry and the professions, come from this business income and not from the tithing of the people."

I mean.....

That statement from 40+ years ago proves nothing. You're the one that demands proof all the time, so come on, you're going to have to do better than that.

But even if it was true, where did the church get the money to invest in these business ventures?

Whichever way you look at it, these are sacred funds.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 1:45 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 1:31 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 1:24 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 1:12 pm

Nope. The 15's salaries come from Desert Books and the like, not tithing.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

Prove it.
Spoiler alert: The link you posted doesn't.

"I should like to add, parenthetically for your information, that the living allowances given the General Authorities, which are very modest in comparison with executive compensation in industry and the professions, come from this business income and not from the tithing of the people."

I mean.....

That statement from 40+ years ago proves nothing. You're the one that demands proof all the time, so come on, you're going to have to do better than that.

But even if it was true, where did the church get the money to invest in these business ventures?

Whichever way you look at it, these are sacred funds.

"This statement from someone who knows isn't enough" is... an argument I guess. You simply don't want to believe it. I'm not sure there could be better evidence than a statement from Pres. Hinckley on the issue.

I'm not sure you understand how businesses work.... They may have borrowed to start the business, like most folk do. Or, more likely, it's from the discretionary donations from folk, usually when they die.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 12:56 pm
Work!
Turning up at the odd stake conference and speaking for 20 minutes? Attending a meeting for a couple of hours once a week and attending general conference twice a year, and perhaps a temple dedication once in a while. Tough life.

You obviously don't realize how much time, service, and preparation our church leaders put in on the ward, stake, or regional level. If this was your experience, then I'd say you were a poor and unvaliant servant.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 12:56 pm

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:52 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:43 am
These are men of God, not corporate businessmen.
And most of them gave up nothing because their careers we over. These are old men.
Why do they need anything in their 70's 80's and 90's? They certainly wouldn't be pulling down salaries of any figures at that age. It's indefensible.

How many men in their 70's 80's and 90's still work 10-12 hour days? If they did, they would still be making 7 figure incomes. Most men their age would be retired and play golf or sitting around enjoying their retirement rather than sitting in meetings all day long or traveling around the world teaching and witnessing of Christ on every continent, clime, or region.

Work!
Turning up at the odd stake conference and speaking for 20 minutes? Attending a meeting for a couple of hours once a week and attending general conference twice a year, and perhaps a temple dedication once in a while. Tough life.

If you think that's all that an apostle does you have another thing coming.

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:14 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:17 am
I have no problem with expenses being met. For example, if an apostle is to visit another country the church should buy his plane ticket and pay for his accommodation etc. But why should he receive $160,000 stipend on top of that?
And these men are usually quite well off, having had successful careers etc, and are receiving pensions and other income as well.

$160,000 is a pittance compared to the salary they would receive in their past or future careers. Some gave up seven figure incomes to accept their callings.

Besides, which leader of a large corporation makes a paltry $160K?

There are many members paying a full tithe that would welcome the mere "pittance" of $160k.

So, your position is that taking up the cross shouldn't be a sacrifice... or not be that great of a sacrifice? Or is it that "their callings" are merely corporate positions deserving of greater compensation? It's unclear to me.

"Furthermore, I want to say to you, we may not be able to reach it right away, but we expect to see the day when we will not have to ask you for one dollar of donation for any purpose, except that which you volunteer to give of your own accord, because we will have tithes sufficient in the storehouse of the Lord to pay everything that is needful for the advancement of the kingdom of God." - Joseph F. Smith, General Conference April 1907

I guess $100 billion + isn't enough yet.

LDS Physician wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 2:12 pm "Furthermore, I want to say to you, we may not be able to reach it right away, but we expect to see the day when we will not have to ask you for one dollar of donation for any purpose, except that which you volunteer to give of your own accord, because we will have tithes sufficient in the storehouse of the Lord to pay everything that is needful for the advancement of the kingdom of God." - Joseph F. Smith, General Conference April 1907

I guess $100 billion + isn't enough yet.

No, the tithes are sufficient to pay everything. They don't ask for other donations the way they did 100 years ago (asking people to pay extra to build new local buildings, etc). The other donations are totally voluntary, just as Pres. Smith hoped.

iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 12:38 pm Why did you shift the argument away from those who get paid to those who DON'T get paid? We were discussing 70's and up, who get the $160k/yr.

I won't address the fact that bishops, stake presidents, and even patriarchs USED to get paid for their service. The early church actually looked a heckuva lot like a pyramid scheme, to be honest, and partly the cause of their perilous financial situation for many years. I wasn't even discussing that. But you shifted the focus mid-paragraph.

Bit of a straw-man, don't you think?

How did I shift the argument. I explained how the times had changed from the early days of Christ where the apostles 'left their nets' and had "no extra cloak, no slush fund, no "stipend". The world is quite different today. Now most of God's servants do not 'leave their nets' and serve in the Church part time while working fulltime jobs.

How would apostles travel to the far corners of the earth if they still went 'without purse, and scrip' as the apostles of old. We don't lodge preachers in our homes anymore as was the custom in ancient times. The current prophet and apostles put in 50, 60, 70 hour a weeks. How would they support a household?

The Murmurers love to complain and have done so from time immemorial and will continue to murmur up until Christ's Coming in glory.

This gnat has been dissected and all it's hairs counted. Well done!

LDS Physician wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 2:12 pm "Furthermore, I want to say to you, we may not be able to reach it right away, but we expect to see the day when we will not have to ask you for one dollar of donation for any purpose, except that which you volunteer to give of your own accord, because we will have tithes sufficient in the storehouse of the Lord to pay everything that is needful for the advancement of the kingdom of God." - Joseph F. Smith, General Conference April 1907

I guess $100 billion + isn't enough yet.

Not when you're announcing temples like they're on the clearance aisle. The church is growing leaps and bounds.

Dusty Wanderer wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 2:10 pm
There are many members that would welcome $160k as much more than merely a "pittance".

So, your position is that taking up the cross shouldn't be a sacrifice... or not be that of great a sacrifice? Or is it that "their callings" are merely corporate positions deserving of greater compensation? It's unclear to me.

LOL. Gnat squinting must be a favorite pastime on LDAFF.

Do the Apostle and prophets sacrifice? Yes. All their time, talents, and past salaries. They give all their time to their callings. Only the blind do not see what they have sacrificed.