LDS Freedom Forum

ransomme wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 3:55 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 3:25 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 2:23 pm You must like cherries.

hmm, side thought, Why are there so many medicines with bad cherry flavoring?

LOL

Accusing me of cherry picking? Seriously?

I mean, I literally proved that income and interest are synonyms, which means that they mean the same thing when the appropriate definition is applied.

Your entire argument that the 12 were instituting a new order of things and redefining tithing literally doesn't have a leg to stand on. Not only do you have ZERO evidence to support your claim, the evidence actually disproves your claim.

Case closed.

Proved? There was nothing to prove. No one did nor would challenge that those words are synonymous. It's not about possible synonyms it's about the definition. You didn't like the definitions, so you cherry-picked the one synonym that matches your preferred interpretation.

Just a suggestion, but you should go around telling everyone that you are gay, instead of saying happy. After all, they are synonyms.

Also, that was not my argument. That is a plausible explanation considering how tithing was practiced, as far as we can tell, before Joseph's death and the trend of its practice afterward. Add to that the spirit of the law and the Gospel.

Anyhow, I have paid my whole life on income. It's not that I was against it per se. But when actually weighing the evidence the current practice does not track with the spirit of the Gospel, nor with the law of consecration or tithing as it was revealed. It also doesn't seem to track with the practice before Joseph's death. And all changes have been policy changes, not revelatory ones.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 4:50 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 3:55 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 3:25 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 2:23 pm You must like cherries.

hmm, side thought, Why are there so many medicines with bad cherry flavoring?

LOL

Accusing me of cherry picking? Seriously?

I mean, I literally proved that income and interest are synonyms, which means that they mean the same thing when the appropriate definition is applied.

Your entire argument that the 12 were instituting a new order of things and redefining tithing literally doesn't have a leg to stand on. Not only do you have ZERO evidence to support your claim, the evidence actually disproves your claim.

Case closed.

Proved? There was nothing to prove. No one did nor would challenge that those words are synonymous. It's not about possible synonyms it's about the definition. You didn't like the definitions, so you cherry-picked the one synonym that matches your preferred interpretation.

Just a suggestion, but you should go around telling everyone that you are gay, instead of saying happy. After all, they are synonyms.

Also, that was not my argument. That is a plausible explanation considering how tithing was practiced, as far as we can tell, before Joseph's death and the trend of its practice afterward. Add to that the spirit of the law and the Gospel.

Anyhow, I have paid my whole life on income. It's not that I was against it per se. But when actually weighing the evidence the current practice does not track with the spirit of the Gospel, nor with the law of consecration or tithing as it was revealed. It also doesn't seem to track with the practice before Joseph's death. And all changes have been policy changes, not revelatory ones.

Yep... Atticus dropped a bit of a clanger there. Maybe he genuinely doesn't know the difference between synonyms and definitions; which would go some way to explaining the position he has adopted on this thread.

iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 5:12 pm I guess this war will now be fought with obscure dictionaries and thesauruses.

I admire all y’all’s’ patience but I wonder how fruitful a discussion can be when it’s more about parsing words than it is about the spirit of the law.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 5:47 pm .

Atticus wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 6:03 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 5:47 pm .

Accusing me of being blind for knowing what synonyms are, is just another tactic to distract from the fact that no one critical of the church's definition of tithing has solid answer for the fact that the words interest and income are synonymous.

And by the way, no dictionary anywhere defines interest as the amount of money left over after one has paid for all of one’s basic needs.

But, yeah, I'm the blind one here.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 6:34 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 6:03 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 5:47 pm .

Accusing me of being blind for knowing what synonyms are, is just another tactic to distract from the fact that no one critical of the church's definition of tithing has solid answer for the fact that the words interest and income are synonymous.

And by the way, no dictionary anywhere defines interest as the amount of money left over after one has paid for all of one’s basic needs.

But, yeah, I'm the blind one here.

You're welcome.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 8:30 pm One liners are more effective when they actually make sense. Just saying

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 8:56 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 8:30 pm One liners are more effective when they actually make sense. Just saying

You're welcome?

iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 6:48 pm We’re basing financial concepts on synonyms now? That seems a bit careless. I’m pretty sure we never did that in any of my accounting classes.

“Income” and “interest” may have some things in common but they are not the same thing. Might as well try saying “asset” and “credit” are the same things.

TheDuke wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 6:51 pm Profit, interest and income mean different things, don't care about definitions or synonyms or Webster or whatever. the just mean different things, like roads, freeways, tollways, trails, etc... maybe similar subjects but vastly different meanings. It would take some English speaking person much illiterate that me to think they mean the same thing. Sorry, Atticus, but while I don't wholey disagree with your concept, you are hanging your hat on straight fiction.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 11:07 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 8:56 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 8:30 pm One liners are more effective when they actually make sense. Just saying

You're welcome?

Don't quit your day job

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 12:15 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 11:07 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 8:56 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 8:30 pm One liners are more effective when they actually make sense. Just saying

You're welcome?

Don't quit your day job

At least he has one.

Mamabear wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 5:35 am “And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give.
25 And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are condemned; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received.“ Mosiah 4:24-25

Chapter 4&5 are where King Benjamin’s people come to God with a broken heart and a contrite spirit and covenant with Him, then are baptized by the Holy Ghost. Where were they? Outside, not in a temple.
Notice what he said about the poor. I didn’t notice him say that the poor are required to give to the poor. He also makes it clear we should directly help the poor….not give it to him to give to them.
Interesting doctrine.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 5:25 am
It's like we completely forgot the story of the Zoramites in the Book of Mormon, which is a near perfect parallel to our day.

John Tavner wrote: ↑April 15th, 2022, 6:07 am Also, to be clear - looking up those definitions in 1828 it is not so "clearly" the meaning of the word as some individuals would like to make it out to be, I would argue it actually provides evidence against their argument. I made a post on it a while back. I will post the definitions here for others to decide. Words did not mean what they mean today. There were more nuances to them back then and when you follow the similar definitions you see exactly what they mean.

Income 1828: That gain which proceeds from labor, business or property of any kind; the produce of a farm; the rent of houses; the proceeds of professional business; the profits of commerce or of occupation; the interest of money or stock in funds. income is often used synonymously with revenue, but income is more generally applied to the gain of private persons, and revenue to that of a sovereign or of a state. We speak of the annual income of a gentleman, and the annual revenue of the state. (notice how we generally pay tithes ANNUALLY this comes from the tradition of what it meant and how it was applied if it is annual, I can look at all that I've done and determine if I've had a profit or loss, at that point I can see the "interest" I might have on the profits and pay that.

Interest 1828 : 3. To have a share.

We are not all interested in the public funds, but we are all interested in the happiness of a free government.

2. Share; portion; part; participation in value. He has parted with his interest in the stocks. He has an interest in a manufactory of cotton goods.

3. Regard to private profit.

4. Premium paid for the use of money; the profit per cent derived from money lent, or property used by another person, or from debts remaining unpaid. Commercial states have a legal rate of interest Debts on book bear an interest after the expiration of the credit. Courts allow interest in many cases where it is not stipulated. A higher rate of interest than that which the law allows, is called usury.

Simple interest is that which arises from the principal sum only.

Compound interest is that which arises from the principal with the interest added; interest on interest

5. Any surplus advantage.

Profit1828: PROF'IT, noun [Latin profectus, proficio, to profit literally to proceed forward, to advance; pro and facio. The primary sense of facio is to urge or drive.

1. In commerce, the advance in the price of goods sold beyond the cost of purchase. Net profit is the gain made by selling goods at an advanced price or a price beyond what they had cost the seller, and beyond all costs and charges. The profit of the farmer and the manufacturer is the gain made by the sale of produce or manufactures, after deducting the value of the labor, materials, rents and all expenses, together with the interest of the capital employed, whether land, machinery, buildings, instruments or money.

Let no man anticipate uncertain profits.

2. Any gain or pecuniary advantage; as an office of profit or honor.

3. Any advantage; any accession of good from labor or exertion; an extensive signification, comprehending the acquisition of any thing valuable, corporeal or intellectual, temporal or spiritual. A person may derive profit from exercise, amusements, reading, study, meditation, social intercourse, religious instruction, etc. Every improvement or advance in knowledge is profit to a wise man

PROF'IT, verb intransitive To gain advantage in percuniary interest; as, to profit by trade or manufactures.

1. To make improvement; to improve; to grow wiser or better; to advance in any thing useful; as, to profit by reading or by experience.

Gain 1828 : GAIN, verb transitive [Heb. to gain to possess.]

1. To obtain by industry or the employment of capital; to get as profit or advantage; to acquire. Any industrious person may gain a good living in America; but it is less difficult to gain property, than it is to use it with prudence. Money at interest may gain five, six, or seven per cent.
4. To obtain an increase of anything; as, to gain time.

GAIN, verb intransitive To have advantage or profit; to grow rich; to advance in interest or happiness.

Thou hast greedily gained of thy neighbors by extortion. Ezekiel 22:13.

1. To encroach; to advance on; to come forward by degrees; with on; as, the ocean or river gains on the land.

2. To advance nearer; to gain ground on; with on; as, a fleet horse gains on his competitor.

3. To get ground; to prevail against or have the advantage.

GAIN, noun Profit; interest; something obtained as an advantage.

But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Philippians 3:7.

1. Unlawful advantage. 2 Corinthians 12:17.

2. Overplus in computation; any thing opposed to loss.

Premium 1828: PRE'MIUM, noun [Latin] Properly, a reward or recompense; a prize to be won by competition; the reward or prize to be adjudged to the best performance or production.

1. The recompense or prize offered for a specific discovery or for success in an enterprise; as for the discovery of the longitude, or of a northwest passage to the Pacific Ocean.
4. It is sometimes synonymous with interest, but generally in obtaining loans, it is a sum per cent. distinct from the interest.

5. A bounty.

The law that obliges parishes to support the poor, offers a premium for the encouragement of idleness.