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Probably. But I bet there’s a policy somewhere, too…Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 5:45 pmAre their tithing records available somewhere?iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 5:37 pmI invite you to find out. It might be a clue.Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 5:34 pmNo idea.iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 5:31 pm Simple question: do the Q15 pay tithing on their stipend?
Haven't you realized that the church leadership system is an absolute scam? Your not going to be invited to the party unless you have money or connections. I recall the lie I taught on my mission about the "unpaid ministry." Well, I guess if you can justify a stipend as isn't being paid then good for you. I for one have a responsibility to provide for my family. Not for the church's growing real estate empire. If God condemns me for buying shoes for my kids and food for my wife before paying for the church to build the umpteenth half empty temple in Utah county then so be it. That's a Good I don't really care to support of worship. It's not as if I'm using the money to make myself more and more wealthy as the church does with tithing. No, I'm actually using it to fulfill my god-givn responsibilities as a father.Atrasado wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 2:28 pm The money the brethren receive is called a stipend or living allowance so I think it's understood that it's not a salary and shouldn't be tithed on. For example, mission president do not pay tithing on their living allowance. We know this because their manual got leaked, besides I remember reading this in my mission president's manual (I was on the office staff and would read it when he was traveling). I am pretty sure it would be the same for a GA. So, if someone just works for the Church they pay tithing, but if they have a certain calling (GA or MP) they don't??? Or, when I was making $30,000 a year and we were paying a "full" tithe and blowing through our savings and then going into debt for necessary expenses they don't pay anything?!?! All while making a modest three or four times what I made!
I'm so sad right now I can't hardly stand it.
I quoted the savior about receiving the Lord's salvation (milk and honey) without price. The LDS church locks that behind 15 temple questions. Tithing being one of them.TheDuke wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 6:02 pm Reluctant: I have stated what I believe about how much tithing in several posts. A few back you suggested learning about tithing from Isaiah and Nephi (I assume Nephi the son of Lehi). I find nothing about tithes at all. I am not interested in understanding about other offerings or sacrifices or goat or lambs or doves, but please show me specifically what Nephi (the first Nephi) and Isaiah said about tithes. I find nothing in any of my searches. I'm happy to learn to ensure I understand correctly. I will await enlightenment. -- BTW not some fuzzy, touchy feely words about generalities, you asked for comments specifically about tithing from Nephi and Isaiah. Provide them and I will respond honorably to them.
They are less faithful and less obedient.DeathIsPartOfLife wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 6:05 pm So why are there LDS children dying of starvation? Property is useless if it isn't feeding children when there is hunger. They are acted upon, more often than not. They have no say in their lives.
For me, the law of tithing is about caring for the poor far more than sustaining the church or church leaders. Consecration, truly lived, even more. What I reference is a mindset of how to care for the poor. The church requires money for salvation. Nephi, quoting Isaiah Mesianically, said that what he offered does not require money. The LDS church requires payment of tithes for saving ordiances. If you don't like that answer, well, I'm not going to discuss it further.TheDuke wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 9:43 pm Reluctant: you said "I'm glad we don't listen to Nephi and Isaiah. I mean, it's not like three people in the BoM asked us to read Isaiah."
Then later you asked for a response about your question of Isaiah, relative to tithing.
I asked for clarification because I cannot find anything directly about tithing in either Nephi (Lehi's son) or Isaiah. You responded with quoting Jesus about milk and honey w/o price, which is neither Nephi or Isaiah, nor about tithing or even offerings. It is about receiving blessing of the atonement, free from Christ, as given in the context.
My request is simple, please provide something from Nephi or Isaiah or say that you were mistaken and there is nothing in them about tithing, or you could say I misunderstood the request (but I quoted you directly above), or just say you no longer wish to talk to me because I twist some scripture (but I haven't). Also, I don't feel this question (posed by you) has anything to do with the modern church (LDS, Catholic or other), but only OT time prophets and descriptions and commandments. BTW I already stated the basics of Moses initial implementation of the law, when the entered the promised land as a basis for the purpose, at least in the OT). thanks in advance for keeping this professional and viable for learning and understanding.
You obviously either didn't understand what I was saying to ransomme or are twisting my words. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you just skimmed what I wrote and missed some important details. Please read very carefully this time.Serragon wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 11:03 amYou asked me previously for an example of a weak and deceptive argument that you had made. This is a prime example.Atticus wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 7:02 amWell, I mean since one of the definitions of interest in the 1828 dictionary is profit, and interest, income, and profit are actual synonyms of each other, I would say that I do have actual evidence that the 12 apostles were not changing the meaning of tithing.ransomme wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 1:55 amI have no evidence, you have no evidence. And...? That's why I am looking at the pattern, other scripture, harmony with principles of compassion, charity, & love, etc. I see a difference in approach here. I posit that I am looking more at the bigger picture and context, while you are appealing to authority and trying to focus more narrowly on a specific narrative.Atticus wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 11:51 pm
Again, the point is that you have no real evidence that the 12 were changing how tithing was interpreted. I get that you believe this is what was going on, but without a statement by Joseph Smith to compare it to, you don't really have a case. And it's still quite bizarre that you reject the idea that the 12 were merely reaffirming what Joseph had taught them about tithing in 1844, but then insist that Orson Hyde's 1847 statement was him reaffirming what Joseph had taught.
As for old Noah Webster's 1828 dictionary, one of his definitions for interest is:Regard to private profit.
Some common synonyms for profit are: income, earning, and interest. https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/profit
Which means that the 12 defining interest as income is completely reasonable, since the two are synonyms. https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/income
Lol, so now you don't want to look at the actual meaning of words but you want to shift outward to possible synonyms? How many degrees of separation do you want to go to find a branch that you can cling onto?
Also, it is more reasonable to look at the actual definition, to examine the practice to see how it was practiced and how it changed over time.
I must applaud you however on your persistence, your aptitude for rationalization and ability dismiss inconvenient facts and statements.
One of us is most certainly ignoring inconvenient facts and statements, but it's not me.
There are 10 definitions in the 1828 dictionary for the noun "interest". One of these 10 definitions does contain the word profit. The noun "profit" has 5 definitions. One of these definitions contains the word "income". You then conclude that because these 2 words are used in these various definitions that they are synonymous. You then begin replacing the word the Lord used with your new word that more closely matches the idea you are defending.
You have truncated the rest of the definition that contains the word "profit" to remove context. The full definition is "the profit in goods or money that is made on invested capital". The word "profit" is calculated off of the invested capital. The invested capital in the context of D&C 119 is the property left over after donating your surplus. So the "profit" in this case is the amount you have in excess to this investment at the end of the next year.
This means that the word income only refers to the amount of money or property gained since last year. It never includes the principal. So the words are not synonymous except in this very limited context. This is the weak part of the argument.
The deceptive part is when you decide to use the word income as synonym in the more broad sense. You do this because that is the word the brethren have used and you know that most people will be unaware of the narrow context and will understand the word as it is used by people today and how the church uses it today.
If you ask someone today what their income is, they will tell you their gross income. They will not understand that word to mean the difference between where they were last year and where they are today.
A man with 100 cows at the end of last year and 110 cows at the end of this year has an increase or interest of 10 cows, but he would likely tell you that he had no income unless he sells those cows. His tithe according to D&C 119 should be calculated on the 10 cow increase.
A man who has a salary of $100,000 last year and a salary of $110,000 this year has an increase or interest of $10,000, but he would likely tell you that his income was $110,000. His tithe according to D&C 119 should be calculated on the $10,000 increase but he will likely pay on the full $110,000 because of the deceptive use of the word income.
The deceptive practice of using income as a general synonym for interest is meant to justify this practice and understanding. It is contrary to the Lord's commandment on tithing.
Calm down there cowboy!TheDuke wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 10:06 pm Reluctant: again you make a case, don't answer a simple question, and then decide to walk away. I also believe it is important to care for the poor, I said DONT BRING UP LDS OR MODERN CHURCHES as we are discussing OT times (Nephi and Isaiah) but you haven't a pot ....... in on your claim. I agree there is no further need to talk as you may have information about offerings, but never even read tithing as implemented by Moses (referenced if anywhere by both Nephi and Isaiah). I see you want to put down LDS leaders and have a hammer, so every thread becomes a nail.
Do you really find it impossible to discuss a topic, that you started and (even requested input on and even put down others on the thread for) honorably? I guess NOT!
So, lets recap. Neither Isaiah nor Nephi talked about tithes. Tithes were instituted (outside of Abraham paying on his loot with no reference to why) by Moses to feed and care for the priests (one full tribe of 12 and one family of Aaron). It has nothing to do with the poor (that could be connoted from Jesus' teachings, but only indirectly). You are taking out of context an ancient discussion of Jesus' atonement which is without price (other than keeping the commandments, I guess Jesus' pay-to-play for repentance, but infirmities and original sin are free) and incorrectly calling it tithing for the express purpose of putting down LDS leaders (other than JS)! As YOU say, time is up, thank you for playing! or as I learned so long ago QED!
Where are there LDS children dying of starvation, and how can it be exclusively proven to be because of tithing? Otherwise, you are falling into the same trick that many left-wingers use of using emotion to get people riled up against a policy, instead of stating the facts.DeathIsPartOfLife wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 6:05 pm So why are there LDS children dying of starvation? Property is useless if it isn't feeding children when there is hunger. They are acted upon, more often than not. They have no say in their lives.
You must like cherries.Atticus wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 10:47 pmYou obviously either didn't understand what I was saying to ransomme or are twisting my words. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you just skimmed what I wrote and missed some important details. Please read very carefully this time.Serragon wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 11:03 amYou asked me previously for an example of a weak and deceptive argument that you had made. This is a prime example.Atticus wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 7:02 amWell, I mean since one of the definitions of interest in the 1828 dictionary is profit, and interest, income, and profit are actual synonyms of each other, I would say that I do have actual evidence that the 12 apostles were not changing the meaning of tithing.ransomme wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 1:55 am
I have no evidence, you have no evidence. And...? That's why I am looking at the pattern, other scripture, harmony with principles of compassion, charity, & love, etc. I see a difference in approach here. I posit that I am looking more at the bigger picture and context, while you are appealing to authority and trying to focus more narrowly on a specific narrative.
Lol, so now you don't want to look at the actual meaning of words but you want to shift outward to possible synonyms? How many degrees of separation do you want to go to find a branch that you can cling onto?
Also, it is more reasonable to look at the actual definition, to examine the practice to see how it was practiced and how it changed over time.
I must applaud you however on your persistence, your aptitude for rationalization and ability dismiss inconvenient facts and statements.
One of us is most certainly ignoring inconvenient facts and statements, but it's not me.
There are 10 definitions in the 1828 dictionary for the noun "interest". One of these 10 definitions does contain the word profit. The noun "profit" has 5 definitions. One of these definitions contains the word "income". You then conclude that because these 2 words are used in these various definitions that they are synonymous. You then begin replacing the word the Lord used with your new word that more closely matches the idea you are defending.
You have truncated the rest of the definition that contains the word "profit" to remove context. The full definition is "the profit in goods or money that is made on invested capital". The word "profit" is calculated off of the invested capital. The invested capital in the context of D&C 119 is the property left over after donating your surplus. So the "profit" in this case is the amount you have in excess to this investment at the end of the next year.
This means that the word income only refers to the amount of money or property gained since last year. It never includes the principal. So the words are not synonymous except in this very limited context. This is the weak part of the argument.
The deceptive part is when you decide to use the word income as synonym in the more broad sense. You do this because that is the word the brethren have used and you know that most people will be unaware of the narrow context and will understand the word as it is used by people today and how the church uses it today.
If you ask someone today what their income is, they will tell you their gross income. They will not understand that word to mean the difference between where they were last year and where they are today.
A man with 100 cows at the end of last year and 110 cows at the end of this year has an increase or interest of 10 cows, but he would likely tell you that he had no income unless he sells those cows. His tithe according to D&C 119 should be calculated on the 10 cow increase.
A man who has a salary of $100,000 last year and a salary of $110,000 this year has an increase or interest of $10,000, but he would likely tell you that his income was $110,000. His tithe according to D&C 119 should be calculated on the $10,000 increase but he will likely pay on the full $110,000 because of the deceptive use of the word income.
The deceptive practice of using income as a general synonym for interest is meant to justify this practice and understanding. It is contrary to the Lord's commandment on tithing.
First of all, it's a fact that the words interest, income, and profit are all synonyms of each other. Look in any thesaurus. See here for example: https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/income
Now what is a synonym?
Synonym Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Websterhttps://www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › synon...
The meaning of SYNONYM is one of two or more words or expressions of the same language that have the same or nearly the same meaning in some or all senses.
So, it's a fact that when the appropriate definitions are used, interest and income "have the same or nearly the same meaning."
If that isn't convincing enough. Look at the 3rd listed definition of the noun interest in the 1828 Webster Dictionary:
3. Regard to private profit.
Then look at some of the ways the 1828 Webster dictionary defines profit:
1. In commerce, the advance in the price of goods sold beyond the cost of purchase. Net profit is the gain made by selling goods at an advanced price or a price beyond what they had cost the seller, and beyond all costs and charges. The profit of the farmer and the manufacturer is the gain made by the sale of produce or manufactures, after deducting the value of the labor, materials, rents and all expenses, together with the interest of the capital employed, whether land, machinery, buildings, instruments or money.
2. Any gain or pecuniary advantage; as an office of profit or honor.
3. Any advantage; any accession of good from labor or exertion; an extensive signification, comprehending the acquisition of any thing valuable, corporeal or intellectual, temporal or spiritual. A person may derive profit from exercise, amusements, reading, study, meditation, social intercourse, religious instruction, etc. Every improvement or advance in knowledge is profit to a wise man.
Now, lets look at how the 1828 dictionary defines income:
IN'COME, noun in'cum. [in and come.] That gain which proceeds from labor, business or property of any kind; the produce of a farm; the rent of houses; the proceeds of professional business; the profits of commerce or of occupation
These definitions show that even in 1828, interest, income, and profit were all synonyms of each other and had essentially the same meaning when the appropriate definition is applied.
Therefore the twelve stating that interest refers to income is completely reasonable.
There is a charity called Bountiful Children's Foundation (formerly called Liahona Children's Foundation) founded specifically because LDS children in South America, Asia and Africa were suffering from malnutrition - in some cases dying.Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 1:11 pmWhere are there LDS children dying of starvation, and how can it be exclusively proven to be because of tithing? Otherwise, you are falling into the same trick that many left-wingers use of using emotion to get people riled up against a policy, instead of stating the facts.DeathIsPartOfLife wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 6:05 pm So why are there LDS children dying of starvation? Property is useless if it isn't feeding children when there is hunger. They are acted upon, more often than not. They have no say in their lives.
Now that's just flat out a good laugh! (the post itself, not so much the context, the discussion, etc....those are great word choicesiWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 2:49 pm Personally, I'd like to know how many people consult their local Websters Dictionary before embarking on a formal conversation.
"Indubitably, my dearest confederate and confidante; it is beyond all contestation and cogitation! The defenestration of our esteemed colleague, Sir Atticus, was purely coincidental to his proximity relative the logomachy. Most unfortunate circumstance, indeed! Prithee instruct his next of kin of his whereabouts and condition."
)LOL
Robin Hood asked for an appeal to the 1828 Webster Dictionary and people were so confused, so I went ahead and took his advice and consulted the dictionary. And what to my wondering eyes should appear... but the 12 apostles definition of tithing was thoroughly cleared.iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 2:49 pm Personally, I'd like to know how many people consult their local Websters Dictionary before embarking on a formal conversation.
"Indubitably, my dearest confederate and confidante; it is beyond all contestation and cogitation! The defenestration of our esteemed colleague, Sir Atticus, was purely coincidental to his proximity relative the logomachy. Most unfortunate circumstance, indeed! Prithee instruct his next of kin of his whereabouts and condition."
Proved? There was nothing to prove. No one did nor would challenge that those words are synonymous. It's not about possible synonyms it's about the definition. You didn't like the definitions, so you cherry-picked the one synonym that matches your preferred interpretation.Atticus wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 3:25 pmLOL
Accusing me of cherry picking? Seriously?
I mean, I literally proved that income and interest are synonyms, which means that they mean the same thing when the appropriate definition is applied.
Your entire argument that the 12 were instituting a new order of things and redefining tithing literally doesn't have a leg to stand on. Not only do you have ZERO evidence to support your claim, the evidence actually disproves your claim.
Case closed.
For clarity's sake, it was not the definition, it was a synonym of one of the definitions that you cherry-picked.Atticus wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 3:34 pmRobin Hood asked for an appeal to the 1828 Webster Dictionary and people were so confused, so I went ahead and took his advice and consulted the dictionary. And what to my wondering eyes should appear... but the 12 apostles definition of tithing was thoroughly cleared.iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 2:49 pm Personally, I'd like to know how many people consult their local Websters Dictionary before embarking on a formal conversation.
"Indubitably, my dearest confederate and confidante; it is beyond all contestation and cogitation! The defenestration of our esteemed colleague, Sir Atticus, was purely coincidental to his proximity relative the logomachy. Most unfortunate circumstance, indeed! Prithee instruct his next of kin of his whereabouts and condition."
Income and interest are synonyms.ransomme wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 3:58 pmFor clarity's sake, it was not the definition, it was a synonym of one of the definitions that you cherry-picked.Atticus wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 3:34 pmRobin Hood asked for an appeal to the 1828 Webster Dictionary and people were so confused, so I went ahead and took his advice and consulted the dictionary. And what to my wondering eyes should appear... but the 12 apostles definition of tithing was thoroughly cleared.iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 14th, 2022, 2:49 pm Personally, I'd like to know how many people consult their local Websters Dictionary before embarking on a formal conversation.
"Indubitably, my dearest confederate and confidante; it is beyond all contestation and cogitation! The defenestration of our esteemed colleague, Sir Atticus, was purely coincidental to his proximity relative the logomachy. Most unfortunate circumstance, indeed! Prithee instruct his next of kin of his whereabouts and condition."
Until a couple of decades ago, no one would have found that strange. They would have recognized that it means the same thing. (But unfortunately today the homosexuals have hijacked the word).