Newest and Best Tithing Discussion

[Reluctant Watchman]

Do you see a conflict between the quote from Isaiah and current LDS dogma of tithing required for temple admittance, or even so extreme as BY excommunicating members for not paying tithing?

No, I really don't see a conflict.

Did God command that we pay tithing or not? Can we obtain salvation without keeping his commandments?

Additionally, God specifically commanded that the Nauvoo Temple was to be built by the tithing of the people and Joseph Smith said that only those who paid tithing could enter. I see no problem with that. Why should those who refuse to keep God's command to pay tithing and contribute to the building of the temple be allowed to use it?

I see a huge conflict.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Our current Quorum of the 15 do not pay tithing. Should they also be banned from temples?

How do you know that they do not pay tithing?

Wouldn't be the first time. They exempted themselves early on in church history as well.

[Lemarque]

Imagine two people that live next door to each other.

Person A is a 25 year old business owner who lives in his parent's basement.

Person B is a married 40 year old with 5 children who works as an employee for the 25 year old.

In this hypothetical situation they split the money from the business equally, each earning $50,000 last year. They also each bought cars last year. This is very simplified to make a point.

Person A:
Puts the car as a business expense. -$10,000
Purchases a cabin for the company for "work retreats." -$12,000 over the year for mortgage payments (I had a former employer do this)
Buys lunch for himself every day with company credit card dining with 'clients'. -$6,000
Goes on a vacation to a business convention. -$2,000
Pays nothing in rent to his parents, and is provided food by them whenever he's not eating out.
Buys a laptop that is used for the business, but also as a gaming computer. -$1,000
Pays for his internet, cell phone, through his company. -$2,500

Person B:
Needs a car to get to work, buys one for $10,000 but can't write it off since he's an employee.
Pays $1,000 a month for his own mortgage payment. $12,000
Brings his own lunch every day to save money, but pays $6,000 a year for groceries feeding his family
Took his family on a vacation: $2,000
Buys a computer for his family to use. $1,000
Pays for internet and cell phones for his family. $2,500

At the end of the year, they each have the same amount of money left over after expenses.

Person A pays tithing of $1,650 on his 'business income' of $16,500.

Person B is supposed to pay $5,000 in tithing on his wages of $50,000.

Person A just happened to run everything through his business so it didn't count as income.

Both will be blessed for paying tithing. But Person B could be kept from getting a temple recommend for paying the same amount of tithing as Person A if the bishop feels like it.

[Artaxerxes]

Why do you call it "current LDS dogma* when you know that the requirement of tithing for temple attendance goes back to Joseph?

See, we can't even agree on that.

Which part of this temple recommend, signed by Joseph, which specifically mentions the holder having paid tithing, do you think I'm misinterpreting?

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ber-1842/1

[Artaxerxes]

Our current Quorum of the 15 do not pay tithing. Should they also be banned from temples?

How do you know that they do not pay tithing?

Wouldn't be the first time. They exempted themselves early on in church history as well.

As discussed earlier, that isn't true. You can look at the source yourself. It absolutely doesn't say anything like what the critics claimed. Read it for yourself.

[LDS Watchman]

Do you see a conflict between the quote from Isaiah and current LDS dogma of tithing required for temple admittance, or even so extreme as BY excommunicating members for not paying tithing?

No, I really don't see a conflict.

Did God command that we pay tithing or not? Can we obtain salvation without keeping his commandments?

Additionally, God specifically commanded that the Nauvoo Temple was to be built by the tithing of the people and Joseph Smith said that only those who paid tithing could enter. I see no problem with that. Why should those who refuse to keep God's command to pay tithing and contribute to the building of the temple be allowed to use it?

I see a huge conflict.

How?

[Robin Hood]

Our current Quorum of the 15 do not pay tithing. Should they also be banned from temples?

How do you know that they do not pay tithing?

Wouldn't be the first time. They exempted themselves early on in church history as well.

They did, and there was no stipend then.
They exempted themselves from paying on their private income. Not only that, but they helped themselves to tithing funds in the form of "loans", which were never repaid.
There are even cases where they borrowed tithing funds to invest in a business venture, never repaid the loan, and didn't pay tithing on the profits!
The leadership have historically misbehaved in this regard, though I suspect this kind of thing is not a modern issue.

For me, the rumoured $1million golden hello paid to all new apostles is very troubling.... more so that the stipend.

[Artaxerxes]

Our current Quorum of the 15 do not pay tithing. Should they also be banned from temples?

How do you know that they do not pay tithing?

Wouldn't be the first time. They exempted themselves early on in church history as well.

They did, and there was no stipend then.
They exempted themselves from paying on their private income. Not only that, but they helped themselves to tithing funds in the form of "loans", which were never repaid.
There are even cases where they borrowed tithing funds to invest in a business venture, never repaid the loan, and didn't pay tithing on the profits!
The leadership have historically misbehaved in this regard, though I suspect this kind of thing is not a modern issue.

For me, the rumoured $1million golden hello paid to all new apostles is very troubling.... more so that the stipend.

When did they do that? Because, again, the only citation I've ever seen people point to is Heber Kimball's diary. I posted his entire entry from the date it is supposedly in there. It's just not there.

So do you have another source, or is there something about that journal entry that I'm missing?

[Robin Hood]

How do you know that they do not pay tithing?

Wouldn't be the first time. They exempted themselves early on in church history as well.

They did, and there was no stipend then.
They exempted themselves from paying on their private income. Not only that, but they helped themselves to tithing funds in the form of "loans", which were never repaid.
There are even cases where they borrowed tithing funds to invest in a business venture, never repaid the loan, and didn't pay tithing on the profits!
The leadership have historically misbehaved in this regard, though I suspect this kind of thing is not a modern issue.

For me, the rumoured $1million golden hello paid to all new apostles is very troubling.... more so that the stipend.

When did they do that? Because, again, the only citation I've ever seen people point to is Heber Kimball's diary. I posted his entire entry from the date it is supposedly in there. It's just not there.

So do you have another source, or is there something about that journal entry that I'm missing?

D Michael Quinn wrote a whole book about it.

[Artaxerxes]

Wouldn't be the first time. They exempted themselves early on in church history as well.

They did, and there was no stipend then.
They exempted themselves from paying on their private income. Not only that, but they helped themselves to tithing funds in the form of "loans", which were never repaid.
There are even cases where they borrowed tithing funds to invest in a business venture, never repaid the loan, and didn't pay tithing on the profits!
The leadership have historically misbehaved in this regard, though I suspect this kind of thing is not a modern issue.

For me, the rumoured $1million golden hello paid to all new apostles is very troubling.... more so that the stipend.

When did they do that? Because, again, the only citation I've ever seen people point to is Heber Kimball's diary. I posted his entire entry from the date it is supposedly in there. It's just not there.

So do you have another source, or is there something about that journal entry that I'm missing?

D Michael Quinn wrote a whole book about it.

And he cited to, you guessed it, Heber Kimball's diary as proof! In other words, he lied. Try again.

[iWriteStuff]

They did, and there was no stipend then.
They exempted themselves from paying on their private income. Not only that, but they helped themselves to tithing funds in the form of "loans", which were never repaid.
There are even cases where they borrowed tithing funds to invest in a business venture, never repaid the loan, and didn't pay tithing on the profits!
The leadership have historically misbehaved in this regard, though I suspect this kind of thing is not a modern issue.

For me, the rumoured $1million golden hello paid to all new apostles is very troubling.... more so that the stipend.

When did they do that? Because, again, the only citation I've ever seen people point to is Heber Kimball's diary. I posted his entire entry from the date it is supposedly in there. It's just not there.

So do you have another source, or is there something about that journal entry that I'm missing?

D Michael Quinn wrote a whole book about it.

And he cited to, you guessed it, Heber Kimball's diary as proof! In other words, he lied. Try again.

Really? Quinn's book is heavily cited. He doesn't make a single statement that can't be verified by Church History records, personal diaries, and the JofD. You may not like what's said, but there's no denying who said it:

https://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Hierarchy ... C80&sr=8-6

[iWriteStuff]

Example:

“In February 1904 church president Joseph F. Smith publicly acknowledged that tithing donated by individual Mormons (“one-tenth of all their interest [or increase] annually”)29 was the source for financially supporting the general authorities. “Every young man knows that [LDS] tithing is not compulsory,” he said. “If, in part, it is used for the bare support of those who devote their whole lives to the Church, it must be conceded [by critics] that it is our own money.”30”

What are the sources for footnote 29 and 30?

29. D&C 119:4; Ludlow, Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 4:1480–82.
30. Joseph F. Smith, “Editor’s Table,” Improvement Era, Feb. 1904, 305.

[Artaxerxes]

When did they do that? Because, again, the only citation I've ever seen people point to is Heber Kimball's diary. I posted his entire entry from the date it is supposedly in there. It's just not there.

So do you have another source, or is there something about that journal entry that I'm missing?

D Michael Quinn wrote a whole book about it.

And he cited to, you guessed it, Heber Kimball's diary as proof! In other words, he lied. Try again.

Really? Quinn's book is heavily cited. He doesn't make a single statement that can't be verified by Church History records, personal diaries, and the JofD. You may not like what's said, but there's no denying who said it:

https://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Hierarchy ... C80&sr=8-6

I do deny it. Here's what Heber Kimball's diary actually said. I understand the spelling is... creative. But it seems to me Kimball was saying their tithes were recorded, not exempted.

Screenshot_20220412-171759.png (63.64 KiB) Viewed 216 times

[Artaxerxes]

Example:

“In February 1904 church president Joseph F. Smith publicly acknowledged that tithing donated by individual Mormons (“one-tenth of all their interest [or increase] annually”)29 was the source for financially supporting the general authorities. “Every young man knows that [LDS] tithing is not compulsory,” he said. “If, in part, it is used for the bare support of those who devote their whole lives to the Church, it must be conceded [by critics] that it is our own money.”30”

What are the sources for footnote 29 and 30?

29. D&C 119:4; Ludlow, Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 4:1480–82.
30. Joseph F. Smith, “Editor’s Table,” Improvement Era, Feb. 1904, 305.

Yes, and the citation for his claim of exemption is Heber Kimball's diary, which doesn't say that.

[iWriteStuff]

Second example:

“In the wake of what they regarded as Young’s arbitrary financial decisions, the apostles decided on October 12, 1877, two months after his death, to establish a fixed compensation for the church’s highest leaders. Wilford Woodruff wrote that “it was voted to give the Twelve $1,500 a year, except Orson Pratt was to have $3,600 a year.”74 Ordained an apostle two months after Brigham Young’s ordination in February 1835, Pratt always seemed to be on the edge of poverty75 and had been in frequent conflict with Young since November 1847.76

By contrast, then-apostle Joseph F. Smith referred to the excessive remuneration Brigham had allowed his son John W. Young as a counselor to the presidency,77 from April 1873 to Brigham’s death in August 1877. Several weeks after the Twelve voted for standardized compensation that autumn, apostle Smith informed a rank-and-file Mormon: “This is a day of retrenchment. One man [John W. Young], for instance, who has drawn $16,000oo pr year from the T.O. [Tithing Office] for his support, has been cut down to 2,000oo pr year. Thus some of the leaks are plugged up. And we hope to be able by and by to “build the Temple [in Salt Lake City].”78

At President Young’s death, his favored son’s remuneration was the equivalent of $344,000 a year today.79 His two counselors had been privately ordained to the apostleship and were accepted by the Quorum of the Twelve as counselors.80 It is no surprise that the other apostles reduced John W’s compensation by nearly 88 percent in October 1877 and began a permanent system of standardized compensation which apostle Woodruff called wages less than six years later.81”

sources:

75. Elden J. Watson, comp., The Orson Pratt Journals (Salt Lake City: by the Author, 1975), 297 (October 1845); Brigham Young office journal, Apr. 14, 1860, Apr. 22, 1861, LDS Church History Library, with typescript available in Quinn Papers, Beinecke Library; Orson Pratt’s property from 1862 to 1875, Salt Lake County Assessment Rolls (appendix 1).

76. For their confrontations in November and December 1847 about Young’s proposal to become church president, see Quinn, Origins of Power, 247–50. For analysis of their decades of confrontation, see Gary James Bergera, “The Orson Pratt-Brigham Young Controversies: Conflict within the Quorums, 1853 to 1868,” Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 13, no. 2 (Summer 1980): 7–49; Bergera, Conflict in the Quorum: Orson Pratt, Brigham Young, Joseph Smith (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 2002); Turner, Brigham Young, 172–73, 234–36, 330–32, 335–36; Roberts, Comprehensive History of the Church, 3:295–96; Arrington, Brigham Young, 154, 207–09.

77. Deseret News 2011 Church Almanac, 89. However, John W. Young had been serving as a special counselor to his father since 1864, initially without the knowledge of the Quorum of the Twelve and without a sustaining vote by the rank-and-file until 1873. See Quinn, Extensions of Power, 164, 208.

“78. Joseph F. Smith to H. [Henry] W. Naisbitt, Dec. 1, 1877, in June–Dec. 1877 letterbook, reel 19, box 30, fd. 3, Joseph F. Smith Papers, MS 1325, LDS Church History Library. This letter is available online and on Selected Collections.

79. Williamson, “Measuring Worth.”

80. Deseret News 2011 Church Almanac, 89, 92.

81. Kenney, Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, 8:146 (Jan. 10, 1883).”

You may not like what Quinn said, but he wasn't making it up out of thin air.

[Artaxerxes]

Second example:

“In the wake of what they regarded as Young’s arbitrary financial decisions, the apostles decided on October 12, 1877, two months after his death, to establish a fixed compensation for the church’s highest leaders. Wilford Woodruff wrote that “it was voted to give the Twelve $1,500 a year, except Orson Pratt was to have $3,600 a year.”74 Ordained an apostle two months after Brigham Young’s ordination in February 1835, Pratt always seemed to be on the edge of poverty75 and had been in frequent conflict with Young since November 1847.76

By contrast, then-apostle Joseph F. Smith referred to the excessive remuneration Brigham had allowed his son John W. Young as a counselor to the presidency,77 from April 1873 to Brigham’s death in August 1877. Several weeks after the Twelve voted for standardized compensation that autumn, apostle Smith informed a rank-and-file Mormon: “This is a day of retrenchment. One man [John W. Young], for instance, who has drawn $16,000oo pr year from the T.O. [Tithing Office] for his support, has been cut down to 2,000oo pr year. Thus some of the leaks are plugged up. And we hope to be able by and by to “build the Temple [in Salt Lake City].”78

At President Young’s death, his favored son’s remuneration was the equivalent of $344,000 a year today.79 His two counselors had been privately ordained to the apostleship and were accepted by the Quorum of the Twelve as counselors.80 It is no surprise that the other apostles reduced John W’s compensation by nearly 88 percent in October 1877 and began a permanent system of standardized compensation which apostle Woodruff called wages less than six years later.81”

sources:

75. Elden J. Watson, comp., The Orson Pratt Journals (Salt Lake City: by the Author, 1975), 297 (October 1845); Brigham Young office journal, Apr. 14, 1860, Apr. 22, 1861, LDS Church History Library, with typescript available in Quinn Papers, Beinecke Library; Orson Pratt’s property from 1862 to 1875, Salt Lake County Assessment Rolls (appendix 1).

76. For their confrontations in November and December 1847 about Young’s proposal to become church president, see Quinn, Origins of Power, 247–50. For analysis of their decades of confrontation, see Gary James Bergera, “The Orson Pratt-Brigham Young Controversies: Conflict within the Quorums, 1853 to 1868,” Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 13, no. 2 (Summer 1980): 7–49; Bergera, Conflict in the Quorum: Orson Pratt, Brigham Young, Joseph Smith (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 2002); Turner, Brigham Young, 172–73, 234–36, 330–32, 335–36; Roberts, Comprehensive History of the Church, 3:295–96; Arrington, Brigham Young, 154, 207–09.

77. Deseret News 2011 Church Almanac, 89. However, John W. Young had been serving as a special counselor to his father since 1864, initially without the knowledge of the Quorum of the Twelve and without a sustaining vote by the rank-and-file until 1873. See Quinn, Extensions of Power, 164, 208.

“78. Joseph F. Smith to H. [Henry] W. Naisbitt, Dec. 1, 1877, in June–Dec. 1877 letterbook, reel 19, box 30, fd. 3, Joseph F. Smith Papers, MS 1325, LDS Church History Library. This letter is available online and on Selected Collections.

79. Williamson, “Measuring Worth.”

80. Deseret News 2011 Church Almanac, 89, 92.

81. Kenney, Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, 8:146 (Jan. 10, 1883).”

You may not like what Quinn said, but he wasn't making it up out of thin air.

Did he claim he was relying on Heber Kimball's diary of not? Wasn't that the source he pointed to? And does that source say what he claimed it said?

[iWriteStuff]

Example:

“In February 1904 church president Joseph F. Smith publicly acknowledged that tithing donated by individual Mormons (“one-tenth of all their interest [or increase] annually”)29 was the source for financially supporting the general authorities. “Every young man knows that [LDS] tithing is not compulsory,” he said. “If, in part, it is used for the bare support of those who devote their whole lives to the Church, it must be conceded [by critics] that it is our own money.”30”

What are the sources for footnote 29 and 30?

29. D&C 119:4; Ludlow, Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 4:1480–82.
30. Joseph F. Smith, “Editor’s Table,” Improvement Era, Feb. 1904, 305.

Yes, and the citation for his claim of exemption is Heber Kimball's diary, which doesn't say that.

Ok, here:

“Nonetheless, in January 1845, seven months after the founding prophet’s death, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles established a fixed compensation for church leaders. First they voted to exempt themselves from tithing.63 On the same day they “recconed” (reckoned) their tithing, they voted to give themselves $2.00 per day, six days per week.64”

Sources:

“63. Trustee-in-Trust Tithing and Donation Record (1844–1851), 220–22 (Jan. 29, 1845), LDS Church History Library, with handwritten excerpts available in Quinn Papers, Beinecke Library. It is absent from Smith et al., History of the Church, 7:368. See also note 64 in this chapter.
64. Heber C. Kimball journal, Jan. 29, 1845, LDS Church History Library, with typescript available in Quinn Papers, Beinecke Library. Kimball’s originally misspelled “recconed” was transcribed incorrectly as “reccored,” as if he meant to spell “recorded,” in Stanley B. Kimball, ed., On the Potter’s Wheel: The Diaries of Heber C. Kimball (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1987), 94.”

Two sources for the Heber C. Kimball account, not to mention one by the Trustee-in-Trust Tithing and Donation Records from that period.

[Artaxerxes]

Example:

“In February 1904 church president Joseph F. Smith publicly acknowledged that tithing donated by individual Mormons (“one-tenth of all their interest [or increase] annually”)29 was the source for financially supporting the general authorities. “Every young man knows that [LDS] tithing is not compulsory,” he said. “If, in part, it is used for the bare support of those who devote their whole lives to the Church, it must be conceded [by critics] that it is our own money.”30”

What are the sources for footnote 29 and 30?

29. D&C 119:4; Ludlow, Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 4:1480–82.
30. Joseph F. Smith, “Editor’s Table,” Improvement Era, Feb. 1904, 305.

Yes, and the citation for his claim of exemption is Heber Kimball's diary, which doesn't say that.

Ok, here:

“Nonetheless, in January 1845, seven months after the founding prophet’s death, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles established a fixed compensation for church leaders. First they voted to exempt themselves from tithing.63 On the same day they “recconed” (reckoned) their tithing, they voted to give themselves $2.00 per day, six days per week.64”

Sources:

“63. Trustee-in-Trust Tithing and Donation Record (1844–1851), 220–22 (Jan. 29, 1845), LDS Church History Library, with handwritten excerpts available in Quinn Papers, Beinecke Library. It is absent from Smith et al., History of the Church, 7:368. See also note 64 in this chapter.
64. Heber C. Kimball journal, Jan. 29, 1845, LDS Church History Library, with typescript available in Quinn Papers, Beinecke Library. Kimball’s originally misspelled “recconed” was transcribed incorrectly as “reccored,” as if he meant to spell “recorded,” in Stanley B. Kimball, ed., On the Potter’s Wheel: The Diaries of Heber C. Kimball (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1987), 94.”

Two sources for the Heber C. Kimball account, not to mention one by the Trustee-in-Trust Tithing and Donation Records from that period.

And here is what Heber ACTUALLY put in his diary.

Screenshot_20220412-171759.png (63.64 KiB) Viewed 174 times

So, does it say what Quinn claims it says?

[iWriteStuff]

Example:

“In February 1904 church president Joseph F. Smith publicly acknowledged that tithing donated by individual Mormons (“one-tenth of all their interest [or increase] annually”)29 was the source for financially supporting the general authorities. “Every young man knows that [LDS] tithing is not compulsory,” he said. “If, in part, it is used for the bare support of those who devote their whole lives to the Church, it must be conceded [by critics] that it is our own money.”30”

What are the sources for footnote 29 and 30?

29. D&C 119:4; Ludlow, Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 4:1480–82.
30. Joseph F. Smith, “Editor’s Table,” Improvement Era, Feb. 1904, 305.

Yes, and the citation for his claim of exemption is Heber Kimball's diary, which doesn't say that.

Ok, here:

“Nonetheless, in January 1845, seven months after the founding prophet’s death, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles established a fixed compensation for church leaders. First they voted to exempt themselves from tithing.63 On the same day they “recconed” (reckoned) their tithing, they voted to give themselves $2.00 per day, six days per week.64”

Sources:

“63. Trustee-in-Trust Tithing and Donation Record (1844–1851), 220–22 (Jan. 29, 1845), LDS Church History Library, with handwritten excerpts available in Quinn Papers, Beinecke Library. It is absent from Smith et al., History of the Church, 7:368. See also note 64 in this chapter.
64. Heber C. Kimball journal, Jan. 29, 1845, LDS Church History Library, with typescript available in Quinn Papers, Beinecke Library. Kimball’s originally misspelled “recconed” was transcribed incorrectly as “reccored,” as if he meant to spell “recorded,” in Stanley B. Kimball, ed., On the Potter’s Wheel: The Diaries of Heber C. Kimball (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1987), 94.”

Two sources for the Heber C. Kimball account, not to mention one by the Trustee-in-Trust Tithing and Donation Records from that period.

And here is what Heber ACTUALLY put in his diary.

Screenshot_20220412-171759.png

So, does it say what Quinn claims it says?

I believe you mis-read that. The Heber quote talks about "reccored" their tithing. Heber doesn't seem to clarify that, but the church's very own Trustee-in-Trust Tithing and Donation Record clarifies what that means - they exempted themselves.

Starting to feel like I'm giving a book report here.

[iWriteStuff]

Simple question: do the Q15 pay tithing on their stipend?

[Artaxerxes]

Simple question: do the Q15 pay tithing on their stipend?

No idea.

[iWriteStuff]

Simple question: do the Q15 pay tithing on their stipend?

No idea.

I invite you to find out. It might be a clue.

[Robin Hood]

Second example:

“In the wake of what they regarded as Young’s arbitrary financial decisions, the apostles decided on October 12, 1877, two months after his death, to establish a fixed compensation for the church’s highest leaders. Wilford Woodruff wrote that “it was voted to give the Twelve $1,500 a year, except Orson Pratt was to have $3,600 a year.”74 Ordained an apostle two months after Brigham Young’s ordination in February 1835, Pratt always seemed to be on the edge of poverty75 and had been in frequent conflict with Young since November 1847.76

By contrast, then-apostle Joseph F. Smith referred to the excessive remuneration Brigham had allowed his son John W. Young as a counselor to the presidency,77 from April 1873 to Brigham’s death in August 1877. Several weeks after the Twelve voted for standardized compensation that autumn, apostle Smith informed a rank-and-file Mormon: “This is a day of retrenchment. One man [John W. Young], for instance, who has drawn $16,000oo pr year from the T.O. [Tithing Office] for his support, has been cut down to 2,000oo pr year. Thus some of the leaks are plugged up. And we hope to be able by and by to “build the Temple [in Salt Lake City].”78

At President Young’s death, his favored son’s remuneration was the equivalent of $344,000 a year today.79 His two counselors had been privately ordained to the apostleship and were accepted by the Quorum of the Twelve as counselors.80 It is no surprise that the other apostles reduced John W’s compensation by nearly 88 percent in October 1877 and began a permanent system of standardized compensation which apostle Woodruff called wages less than six years later.81”

sources:

75. Elden J. Watson, comp., The Orson Pratt Journals (Salt Lake City: by the Author, 1975), 297 (October 1845); Brigham Young office journal, Apr. 14, 1860, Apr. 22, 1861, LDS Church History Library, with typescript available in Quinn Papers, Beinecke Library; Orson Pratt’s property from 1862 to 1875, Salt Lake County Assessment Rolls (appendix 1).

76. For their confrontations in November and December 1847 about Young’s proposal to become church president, see Quinn, Origins of Power, 247–50. For analysis of their decades of confrontation, see Gary James Bergera, “The Orson Pratt-Brigham Young Controversies: Conflict within the Quorums, 1853 to 1868,” Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 13, no. 2 (Summer 1980): 7–49; Bergera, Conflict in the Quorum: Orson Pratt, Brigham Young, Joseph Smith (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 2002); Turner, Brigham Young, 172–73, 234–36, 330–32, 335–36; Roberts, Comprehensive History of the Church, 3:295–96; Arrington, Brigham Young, 154, 207–09.

77. Deseret News 2011 Church Almanac, 89. However, John W. Young had been serving as a special counselor to his father since 1864, initially without the knowledge of the Quorum of the Twelve and without a sustaining vote by the rank-and-file until 1873. See Quinn, Extensions of Power, 164, 208.

“78. Joseph F. Smith to H. [Henry] W. Naisbitt, Dec. 1, 1877, in June–Dec. 1877 letterbook, reel 19, box 30, fd. 3, Joseph F. Smith Papers, MS 1325, LDS Church History Library. This letter is available online and on Selected Collections.

79. Williamson, “Measuring Worth.”

80. Deseret News 2011 Church Almanac, 89, 92.

81. Kenney, Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, 8:146 (Jan. 10, 1883).”

You may not like what Quinn said, but he wasn't making it up out of thin air.

Did he claim he was relying on Heber Kimball's diary of not? Wasn't that the source he pointed to? And does that source say what he claimed it said?

You clearly don't read posts. Did you not see the list of citations/references?
Too interested in what you have to say to bother to properly read what someone else says. It's quite disrespectful.

[Artaxerxes]

Second example:

“In the wake of what they regarded as Young’s arbitrary financial decisions, the apostles decided on October 12, 1877, two months after his death, to establish a fixed compensation for the church’s highest leaders. Wilford Woodruff wrote that “it was voted to give the Twelve $1,500 a year, except Orson Pratt was to have $3,600 a year.”74 Ordained an apostle two months after Brigham Young’s ordination in February 1835, Pratt always seemed to be on the edge of poverty75 and had been in frequent conflict with Young since November 1847.76

By contrast, then-apostle Joseph F. Smith referred to the excessive remuneration Brigham had allowed his son John W. Young as a counselor to the presidency,77 from April 1873 to Brigham’s death in August 1877. Several weeks after the Twelve voted for standardized compensation that autumn, apostle Smith informed a rank-and-file Mormon: “This is a day of retrenchment. One man [John W. Young], for instance, who has drawn $16,000oo pr year from the T.O. [Tithing Office] for his support, has been cut down to 2,000oo pr year. Thus some of the leaks are plugged up. And we hope to be able by and by to “build the Temple [in Salt Lake City].”78

At President Young’s death, his favored son’s remuneration was the equivalent of $344,000 a year today.79 His two counselors had been privately ordained to the apostleship and were accepted by the Quorum of the Twelve as counselors.80 It is no surprise that the other apostles reduced John W’s compensation by nearly 88 percent in October 1877 and began a permanent system of standardized compensation which apostle Woodruff called wages less than six years later.81”

sources:

75. Elden J. Watson, comp., The Orson Pratt Journals (Salt Lake City: by the Author, 1975), 297 (October 1845); Brigham Young office journal, Apr. 14, 1860, Apr. 22, 1861, LDS Church History Library, with typescript available in Quinn Papers, Beinecke Library; Orson Pratt’s property from 1862 to 1875, Salt Lake County Assessment Rolls (appendix 1).

76. For their confrontations in November and December 1847 about Young’s proposal to become church president, see Quinn, Origins of Power, 247–50. For analysis of their decades of confrontation, see Gary James Bergera, “The Orson Pratt-Brigham Young Controversies: Conflict within the Quorums, 1853 to 1868,” Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 13, no. 2 (Summer 1980): 7–49; Bergera, Conflict in the Quorum: Orson Pratt, Brigham Young, Joseph Smith (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 2002); Turner, Brigham Young, 172–73, 234–36, 330–32, 335–36; Roberts, Comprehensive History of the Church, 3:295–96; Arrington, Brigham Young, 154, 207–09.

77. Deseret News 2011 Church Almanac, 89. However, John W. Young had been serving as a special counselor to his father since 1864, initially without the knowledge of the Quorum of the Twelve and without a sustaining vote by the rank-and-file until 1873. See Quinn, Extensions of Power, 164, 208.

“78. Joseph F. Smith to H. [Henry] W. Naisbitt, Dec. 1, 1877, in June–Dec. 1877 letterbook, reel 19, box 30, fd. 3, Joseph F. Smith Papers, MS 1325, LDS Church History Library. This letter is available online and on Selected Collections.

79. Williamson, “Measuring Worth.”

80. Deseret News 2011 Church Almanac, 89, 92.

81. Kenney, Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, 8:146 (Jan. 10, 1883).”

You may not like what Quinn said, but he wasn't making it up out of thin air.

Did he claim he was relying on Heber Kimball's diary of not? Wasn't that the source he pointed to? And does that source say what he claimed it said?

You clearly don't read posts. Did you not see the list of citations/references?
Too interested in what you have to say to bother to properly read what someone else says. It's quite disrespectful.

I read it. Which part do you think I overlooked?

[Artaxerxes]

Simple question: do the Q15 pay tithing on their stipend?

No idea.

I invite you to find out. It might be a clue.

Are their tithing records available somewhere?