LDS Freedom Forum

Atticus wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 7:26 am

ransomme wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 3:23 am Follow the Prophet:

Brigham Young doubted that half the members of the church paid tithing, and he himself "sometimes [paid] a little, but not as much as I should." - Conversation between the former assistant Assessor of 8th Division District of Utah and Brigham Young (Dec. 31, 1870), supra note 183.

This is clearly a cherry picked out of context quote. Please provide the full quote, or at least the direct source, so we can assess the context.

And if we take this cherry picked quote at face value, it should be noted, that just like Joseph Smith, Brigham's finances were intermingled with the finances of the church, so it was I'm sure quite difficult for him to know exactly what his personal income was. Per D&C 119, one of the purposes of tithing is to pay the debts of the First Presidency.

Actual it's not, it was from a BYU law school paper about tithing is not profit for the Church. And you can look up the source.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 8:21 am So you simply pick and choose what to believe and reject or ignore all statements by JS and other evidence you don't like. That's what I keep saying.

I don't agree with your interpretation of what JS and others have said. It is YOU I do not trust on many topics and viewpoints. Which is totally understandable and acceptable considering the admonition of the Lord in 2 Nephi 28:31.

ransomme wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 9:46 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 7:26 am

ransomme wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 3:23 am Follow the Prophet:

Brigham Young doubted that half the members of the church paid tithing, and he himself "sometimes [paid] a little, but not as much as I should." - Conversation between the former assistant Assessor of 8th Division District of Utah and Brigham Young (Dec. 31, 1870), supra note 183.

This is clearly a cherry picked out of context quote. Please provide the full quote, or at least the direct source, so we can assess the context.

And if we take this cherry picked quote at face value, it should be noted, that just like Joseph Smith, Brigham's finances were intermingled with the finances of the church, so it was I'm sure quite difficult for him to know exactly what his personal income was. Per D&C 119, one of the purposes of tithing is to pay the debts of the First Presidency.

Actual it's not, it was from a BYU law school paper about tithing is not profit for the Church. And you can look up the source.

Yeah, I found the paper. The paper doesn't provide any context for the quote, nor does it provide a link to the source. If you want to try and establish something with this quote, then you it's up to you to provide the full quote or at least a link to the source for the actual quote.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 9:52 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 8:21 am So you simply pick and choose what to believe and reject or ignore all statements by JS and other evidence you don't like. That's what I keep saying.

I don't agree with your interpretation of what JS and others have said. It is YOU I do not trust on many topics and viewpoints. Which is totally understandable and acceptable considering the admonition of the Lord in 2 Nephi 28:31.

I'm not asking you to agree with or blindly trust my "interpretations" of what JS and others have said.

I'm asking you to actually address the evidence and provide your own interpretations if you disagree with mine, instead of just ignoring and rejecting all evidence you don't like, no matter where it comes from.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 10:35 am

ransomme wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 9:46 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 7:26 am

ransomme wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 3:23 am Follow the Prophet:

Brigham Young doubted that half the members of the church paid tithing, and he himself "sometimes [paid] a little, but not as much as I should." - Conversation between the former assistant Assessor of 8th Division District of Utah and Brigham Young (Dec. 31, 1870), supra note 183.

This is clearly a cherry picked out of context quote. Please provide the full quote, or at least the direct source, so we can assess the context.

And if we take this cherry picked quote at face value, it should be noted, that just like Joseph Smith, Brigham's finances were intermingled with the finances of the church, so it was I'm sure quite difficult for him to know exactly what his personal income was. Per D&C 119, one of the purposes of tithing is to pay the debts of the First Presidency.

Actual it's not, it was from a BYU law school paper about tithing is not profit for the Church. And you can look up the source.

Yeah, I found the paper. The paper doesn't provide any context for the quote, nor does it provide a link to the source. If you want to try and establish something with this quote, then you it's up to you to provide the full quote or at least a link to the source for the actual quote.

No not trying to establish anything in particular.

Although it's interesting that he wanted to also excommunicate non-payers.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 7:02 am

ransomme wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 1:55 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 11:51 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 6:07 pm

A fun fact it's not meant to be anything other than for fun. Your attack on that may show that you might be have a disagreeable nature.

Also slow your roll. You were the one who didn't understand the difference between deficit and debt and its effects on avioliitto to pay. Now yes money is property, which is why it may be telling that they choose to redundantly emphasize it separately. Perhaps because they were changing the nature of tithing to income rather than surplus/interest/profit as defined by the contemporary dictionary at the time.

You also don't have statements by Joseph. It was probably clear to him since he apparently didn't feel the need to elaborate. Also others understood well enough too otherwise they would have drilled him for clarification.

Again, the point is that you have no real evidence that the 12 were changing how tithing was interpreted. I get that you believe this is what was going on, but without a statement by Joseph Smith to compare it to, you don't really have a case. And it's still quite bizarre that you reject the idea that the 12 were merely reaffirming what Joseph had taught them about tithing in 1844, but then insist that Orson Hyde's 1847 statement was him reaffirming what Joseph had taught.

As for old Noah Webster's 1828 dictionary, one of his definitions for interest is:Regard to private profit.

Some common synonyms for profit are: income, earning, and interest. https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/profit

Which means that the 12 defining interest as income is completely reasonable, since the two are synonyms. https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/income

I have no evidence, you have no evidence. And...? That's why I am looking at the pattern, other scripture, harmony with principles of compassion, charity, & love, etc. I see a difference in approach here. I posit that I am looking more at the bigger picture and context, while you are appealing to authority and trying to focus more narrowly on a specific narrative.

Lol, so now you don't want to look at the actual meaning of words but you want to shift outward to possible synonyms? How many degrees of separation do you want to go to find a branch that you can cling onto?
Also, it is more reasonable to look at the actual definition, to examine the practice to see how it was practiced and how it changed over time.

I must applaud you however on your persistence, your aptitude for rationalization and ability dismiss inconvenient facts and statements.

Well, I mean since one of the definitions of interest in the 1828 dictionary is profit, and interest, income, and profit are actual synonyms of each other, I would say that I do have actual evidence that the 12 apostles were not changing the meaning of tithing.

One of us is most certainly ignoring inconvenient facts and statements, but it's not me.

You asked me previously for an example of a weak and deceptive argument that you had made. This is a prime example.

There are 10 definitions in the 1828 dictionary for the noun "interest". One of these 10 definitions does contain the word profit. The noun "profit" has 5 definitions. One of these definitions contains the word "income". You then conclude that because these 2 words are used in these various definitions that they are synonymous. You then begin replacing the word the Lord used with your new word that more closely matches the idea you are defending.

You have truncated the rest of the definition that contains the word "profit" to remove context. The full definition is "the profit in goods or money that is made on invested capital". The word "profit" is calculated off of the invested capital. The invested capital in the context of D&C 119 is the property left over after donating your surplus. So the "profit" in this case is the amount you have in excess to this investment at the end of the next year.

This means that the word income only refers to the amount of money or property gained since last year. It never includes the principal. So the words are not synonymous except in this very limited context. This is the weak part of the argument.

The deceptive part is when you decide to use the word income as synonym in the more broad sense. You do this because that is the word the brethren have used and you know that most people will be unaware of the narrow context and will understand the word as it is used by people today and how the church uses it today.

If you ask someone today what their income is, they will tell you their gross income. They will not understand that word to mean the difference between where they were last year and where they are today.

A man with 100 cows at the end of last year and 110 cows at the end of this year has an increase or interest of 10 cows, but he would likely tell you that he had no income unless he sells those cows. His tithe according to D&C 119 should be calculated on the 10 cow increase.

A man who has a salary of $100,000 last year and a salary of $110,000 this year has an increase or interest of $10,000, but he would likely tell you that his income was $110,000. His tithe according to D&C 119 should be calculated on the $10,000 increase but he will likely pay on the full $110,000 because of the deceptive use of the word income.

The deceptive practice of using income as a general synonym for interest is meant to justify this practice and understanding. It is contrary to the Lord's commandment on tithing.

ransomme wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 11:00 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 10:35 am

ransomme wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 9:46 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 7:26 am

This is clearly a cherry picked out of context quote. Please provide the full quote, or at least the direct source, so we can assess the context.

And if we take this cherry picked quote at face value, it should be noted, that just like Joseph Smith, Brigham's finances were intermingled with the finances of the church, so it was I'm sure quite difficult for him to know exactly what his personal income was. Per D&C 119, one of the purposes of tithing is to pay the debts of the First Presidency.

Actual it's not, it was from a BYU law school paper about tithing is not profit for the Church. And you can look up the source.

Yeah, I found the paper. The paper doesn't provide any context for the quote, nor does it provide a link to the source. If you want to try and establish something with this quote, then you it's up to you to provide the full quote or at least a link to the source for the actual quote.

No not trying to establish anything in particular.

Although it's interesting that he wanted to also excommunicate non-payers.

If you look at the paper you pulled that partial quote from, you will see that Brigham said that no one was exed simply for not paying tithing, but it could be among the reasons someone could be exed.

You also might recall that in the days of Joseph Smith, when David Whitmer was exed, one of the reasons listed was for not obeying the word of wisdom. So there appears to be a clear precedent for what Brigham was saying.

ransomme wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 11:00 am Although it's interesting that he wanted to also excommunicate non-payers.

I'm glad we don't listen to Nephi and Isaiah. I mean, it's not like three people in the BoM asked us to read Isaiah...

"Come unto me all ye ends of the earth, buy milk and honey, without money and without price.

Behold, hath he commanded any that they should depart out of the synagogues, or out of the houses of worship? Behold, I say unto you, Nay."

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 11:18 am

ransomme wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 11:00 am Although it's interesting that he wanted to also excommunicate non-payers.

I'm glad we don't listen to Nephi and Isaiah. I mean, it's not like three people in the BoM asked us to read Isaiah...

"Come unto me all ye ends of the earth, buy milk and honey, without money and without price.

Behold, hath he commanded any that they should depart out of the synagogues, or out of the houses of worship? Behold, I say unto you, Nay."

As you of course know, but decided to post this anyway, even people who are excommunicated aren't kept out of the chapel.

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 11:25 am As you of course know, but decided to post this anyway, even people who are excommunicated aren't kept out of the chapel.

Which has nothing to do with the quote from Brigham, nor requiring money for salvation as is the case w modern LDS temples.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 11:43 am

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 11:25 am As you of course know, but decided to post this anyway, even people who are excommunicated aren't kept out of the chapel.

Which has nothing to do with the quote from Brigham, nor requiring money for salvation as is the case w modern LDS temples.

This is really getting quite ridiculous now.

You believe that the endowment was hijacked and became Satanic (with zero evidence to back this up). Then you gripe and whine about the church requiring that people pay tithing to enter the temple (knowing full well that Joseph Smith established this). And somehow all of this means that the modern church is charging money for salvation. Don't you see how crazy this is?

Seems to me you just want to gripe and whine, and aren't interested in having your concerns resolved.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 12:40 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 11:43 am

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 11:25 am As you of course know, but decided to post this anyway, even people who are excommunicated aren't kept out of the chapel.

Which has nothing to do with the quote from Brigham, nor requiring money for salvation as is the case w modern LDS temples.

This is really getting quite ridiculous now.

You believe that the endowment was hijacked and became Satanic (with zero evidence to back this up). Then you gripe and whine about the church requiring that people pay tithing to enter the temple (knowing full well that Joseph Smith established this). And somehow all of this means that the modern church is charging money for salvation. Don't you see how crazy this is?

Seems to me you just want to gripe and whine, and aren't interested in having your concerns resolved.

I politely disagree w you. How about you address Isaiah.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 12:46 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 12:40 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 11:43 am

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 11:25 am As you of course know, but decided to post this anyway, even people who are excommunicated aren't kept out of the chapel.

Which has nothing to do with the quote from Brigham, nor requiring money for salvation as is the case w modern LDS temples.

This is really getting quite ridiculous now.

You believe that the endowment was hijacked and became Satanic (with zero evidence to back this up). Then you gripe and whine about the church requiring that people pay tithing to enter the temple (knowing full well that Joseph Smith established this). And somehow all of this means that the modern church is charging money for salvation. Don't you see how crazy this is?

Seems to me you just want to gripe and whine, and aren't interested in having your concerns resolved.

I politely disagree w you. How about you address Isaiah.

Oh, you want me to address your evidence, but you won't address mine?

Sure.

What about Isaiah do you want me to address?

Atticus wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 12:51 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 12:46 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 12:40 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 11:43 am
Which has nothing to do with the quote from Brigham, nor requiring money for salvation as is the case w modern LDS temples.

This is really getting quite ridiculous now.

You believe that the endowment was hijacked and became Satanic (with zero evidence to back this up). Then you gripe and whine about the church requiring that people pay tithing to enter the temple (knowing full well that Joseph Smith established this). And somehow all of this means that the modern church is charging money for salvation. Don't you see how crazy this is?

Seems to me you just want to gripe and whine, and aren't interested in having your concerns resolved.

I politely disagree w you. How about you address Isaiah.

Oh, you want me to address your evidence, but you won't address mine?

Sure.

What about Isaiah do you want me to address?

Do you see a conflict between the quote from Isaiah and current LDS dogma of tithing required for temple admittance, or even so extreme as BY excommunicating members for not paying tithing?

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 1:02 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 12:51 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 12:46 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 12:40 pm

This is really getting quite ridiculous now.

You believe that the endowment was hijacked and became Satanic (with zero evidence to back this up). Then you gripe and whine about the church requiring that people pay tithing to enter the temple (knowing full well that Joseph Smith established this). And somehow all of this means that the modern church is charging money for salvation. Don't you see how crazy this is?

Seems to me you just want to gripe and whine, and aren't interested in having your concerns resolved.

I politely disagree w you. How about you address Isaiah.

Oh, you want me to address your evidence, but you won't address mine?

Sure.

What about Isaiah do you want me to address?

Do you see a conflict between the quote from Isaiah and current LDS dogma of tithing required for temple admittance, or even so extreme as BY excommunicating members for not paying tithing?

Why do you call it "current LDS dogma* when you know that the requirement of tithing for temple attendance goes back to Joseph?

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 1:02 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 12:51 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 12:46 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 12:40 pm

This is really getting quite ridiculous now.

You believe that the endowment was hijacked and became Satanic (with zero evidence to back this up). Then you gripe and whine about the church requiring that people pay tithing to enter the temple (knowing full well that Joseph Smith established this). And somehow all of this means that the modern church is charging money for salvation. Don't you see how crazy this is?

Seems to me you just want to gripe and whine, and aren't interested in having your concerns resolved.

I politely disagree w you. How about you address Isaiah.

Oh, you want me to address your evidence, but you won't address mine?

Sure.

What about Isaiah do you want me to address?

Do you see a conflict between the quote from Isaiah and current LDS dogma of tithing required for temple admittance, or even so extreme as BY excommunicating members for not paying tithing?

No, I really don't see a conflict.

Did God command that we pay tithing or not? Can we obtain salvation without keeping his commandments?

Additionally, God specifically commanded that the Nauvoo Temple was to be built by the tithing of the people and Joseph Smith said that only those who paid tithing could enter. I see no problem with that. Why should those who refuse to keep God's command to pay tithing and contribute to the building of the temple be allowed to use it?

Our current Quorum of the 15 do not pay tithing. Should they also be banned from temples?

CuriousThinker wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 1:24 pm Our current Quorum of the 15 do not pay tithing. Should they also be banned from temples?

How do you know that they do not pay tithing?

I have found my personal solution to the tithing issue. I pay what I can. Never to the church. They have sufficient for their needs. I give to those who actually need help. I would imagine that God is ok with that since I assume he blesses those who tithe to whatever church they belong to. I highly doubt that he only accepts tithes to the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Real Estate.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 1:25 pm

CuriousThinker wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 1:24 pm Our current Quorum of the 15 do not pay tithing. Should they also be banned from temples?

How do you know that they do not pay tithing?

The only citation I've ever seen for this claim goes back to that Heber Kimball diary entry that I posted earlier. It seems to be a pretty base lie.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 1:17 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 1:02 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 12:51 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 12:46 pm

I politely disagree w you. How about you address Isaiah.

Oh, you want me to address your evidence, but you won't address mine?

Sure.

What about Isaiah do you want me to address?

Do you see a conflict between the quote from Isaiah and current LDS dogma of tithing required for temple admittance, or even so extreme as BY excommunicating members for not paying tithing?

No, I really don't see a conflict.

Did God command that we pay tithing or not? Can we obtain salvation without keeping his commandments?

Additionally, God specifically commanded that the Nauvoo Temple was to be built by the tithing of the people and Joseph Smith said that only those who paid tithing could enter. I see no problem with that. Why should those who refuse to keep God's command to pay tithing and contribute to the building of the temple be allowed to use it?

I totally agree with that, and have said as much on this forum in the past.
However, I do recognise that it's an argument that has it's limits. Do we also ban those who don't tithe from our chapels given that they haven't contributed to it's building, upkeep, or even to the heating bill? How far do we take this? Maybe those who don't fulfill their chapel cleaning assignments shouldn't be allowed to attend sacrament meeting.
It's not a very well thought out argument really, even though I agree with the sentiment and have said exactly the same thing in the past.

I don't think anyone is arguing that tithing isn't a commandment. It seems the dispute is about definitions and calculations. And really, that's a matter between us and God.
But the prosperity gospel angle is mockery before God.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 1:36 pm
I don't think anyone is arguing that tithing isn't a commandment. It seems the dispute is about definitions and calculations. And really, that's a matter between us and God.

If this is true, then I don't really see what all the fuss is about. I mean the church literally says that it's between the member and God what they should pay in tithing.

I will just say, I have been blessed for having faith and paying when I did not have enough money to cover expenses.

Our expenses were very modest. We lived in an 800 sq ft 2 bedroom apartment with 5 kids. I walked my kids from our apt to the store frequently and loaded up groceries on their laps in the bike stroller because my husband needed the car to go to work 40 miles away. We ate at home.We did not use government assistance for our births and medical bills, food or any other purpose.

We also went into debt to do so.

Then the Lord told me he did not want me in debt anymore. The Lord told me to pay tithing His way and taught me through the scriptures how to do so. So, I do. I am not in debt anymore. I pay a full tithe and I am glad for the Lord's mercy.

I would reference Genesis 14 JST if you are interested in what the Lord told me. It was hard at first because like so many here, my understanding of tithing was something akin to self-flagellation. It was man's way and not God's way.

I am thankful for the blessing of tithing paid the Lord's way. I am thankful to be able to meet my families needs and to receive the blessings of faithful tithe paying.

In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

The money the brethren receive is called a stipend or living allowance so I think it's understood that it's not a salary and shouldn't be tithed on. For example, mission president do not pay tithing on their living allowance. We know this because their manual got leaked, besides I remember reading this in my mission president's manual (I was on the office staff and would read it when he was traveling). I am pretty sure it would be the same for a GA. So, if someone just works for the Church they pay tithing, but if they have a certain calling (GA or MP) they don't??? Or, when I was making $30,000 a year and we were paying a "full" tithe and blowing through our savings and then going into debt for necessary expenses they don't pay anything?!?! All while making a modest three or four times what I made!

I'm so sad right now I can't hardly stand it.

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 13th, 2022, 1:12 pm Why do you call it "current LDS dogma* when you know that the requirement of tithing for temple attendance goes back to Joseph?

See, we can't even agree on that.