LDS Freedom Forum

It is interesting to me that Malachi recorded the same murmuring complaints that are posted on this thread. Murmurers will never change. From Adam to today they complained and will continue until Christ returns. They will even complaint that He's taking too long in His return, according to them of course.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 3:58 pm Hmm... 12 pages so far.
I wonder where the Atticus/Artaxerxes double act will take us next.

Yeah, they are the only posting here. LOL

briznian wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 4:29 pm

Serragon wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 4:26 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 4:20 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 3:53 pm

When I read that a few years ago, it was my "AHA" moment.
Joseph changed the KJV wording to clarify the principle perfectly.

You'll notice that this tithing of Abraham's surplus property is consistent with the first part of tithing as defined in D&C 119. It does not say anything about the second part of tithing, namely payment of 10% of his income annually.

Your constant use of the word "income" instead of "interest" when citing D&C 119 is intentionally dishonest. The words are not synonyms, no matter how much you desire it.

The word interest is in harmony with the first part of the section and with JST Gen 14. The word income doesn't fit with the context.

He's just quoting the church: “'one-tenth of all their interest annually,' which is understood to mean income.”

The question then becomes... what does that mean for the church?

Well considering that interest was defined as income at least as early as 1844 (and very likely earlier), and I think it says that the church has been pretty darn consistent in how tithing has been taught and administered.

briznian wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 4:26 pm He said that he didn't like the hassle of paying tithing...

Sounds like his heart was really in it for the good of the poor.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 4:44 pm

briznian wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 4:29 pm

Serragon wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 4:26 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 4:20 pm

You'll notice that this tithing of Abraham's surplus property is consistent with the first part of tithing as defined in D&C 119. It does not say anything about the second part of tithing, namely payment of 10% of his income annually.

Your constant use of the word "income" instead of "interest" when citing D&C 119 is intentionally dishonest. The words are not synonyms, no matter how much you desire it.

The word interest is in harmony with the first part of the section and with JST Gen 14. The word income doesn't fit with the context.

He's just quoting the church: “'one-tenth of all their interest annually,' which is understood to mean income.”

The question then becomes... what does that mean for the church?

Well considering that interest was defined as income at least as early as 1844 (and very likely earlier), and I think it says that the church has been pretty darn consistent in how tithing has been taught and administered.

Consistently wrong.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 3:22 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 3:16 pm not that anyone cares but I do pay my tithing, although I feel I will change the structure of it, but not the amount. Much more in offerings, and tithe only the surplus.

Thanks, Atticus for bringing this clarity.

Huh? What are you talking about?

your stance was so weak that I took some time to evaluate tithing in my life and the Church. I came across new insights about what the Lord said and intended concerning consecration and tithing. I can now give to the poor and needy more than I was capable of doing before.

This is good, as I strive to be a humble follower of Christ, I can shed myself of another precept of man that I was taught. 2 Nephi 28:14

Atticus wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 3:24 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 3:22 pm See... this thread seems to have been quite productive.

When people simply don't care what the scriptures say, what Joseph Smith actually taught, or what the church actually teaches in regards to tithing, there's not much that can be done.

Why do you prescribe negative motives to him? Can you see his heart?

I think he actually does try, especially to see what Joseph taught.

ransomme wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 4:51 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 3:22 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 3:16 pm not that anyone cares but I do pay my tithing, although I feel I will change the structure of it, but not the amount. Much more in offerings, and tithe only the surplus.

Thanks, Atticus for bringing this clarity.

Huh? What are you talking about?

your stance was so weak that I took some time to evaluate tithing in my life and the Church. I came across new insights about what the Lord said and intended concerning consecration and tithing. I can now give to the poor and needy more than I was capable of doing before.

This is good, as I strive to be a humble follower of Christ, I can shed myself of another precept of man that I was taught. 2 Nephi 28:14

^^^^ this guy gets it. If even five people come out of this thread learning something that draws them closer to Christ, I’ll be glad it only took us 12 pages to get there

FWIW one really does have to dig to separate the false traditions from the doctrine. Dig even further and you might find something even better.

Next level question for Att and Art:

Did Brigham pay tithes or consecrate all his possessions to the Lord while serving as President of the Church?

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 3:58 pm Hmm... 12 pages so far.
I wonder where the Atticus/Artaxerxes double act will take us next.

At least the thread has been living up to it's title

Old Briggy: September 9, 1851 – Brigham Young announces a policy stating that excommunication is an acceptable punishment for those who are not full tithe payers or those who do not comply to the word of wisdom. This measure was voted on at a special Conference in Salt Lake City. (Hosea Stout’s diary, September 9, 1851, “On the Mormon Frontier: The Diary of Hosea Stout, 1844-1861” p.403)

Super reasonable Christ-like attitude IMO.

iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 5:01 pm Next level question for Att and Art:

Did Brigham pay tithes or consecrate all his possessions to the Lord while serving as President of the Church?

oh, oh, I know.... ahhh, they won't answer anyway...

January 29, 1845– The Quorum of the Twelve voted to exempt themselves from the obligation of paying tithing, along with the general bishops (then Newel K. Whitney and George Miller) and the Nauvoo Temple Committee. (Heber C. Kimball diary, January 29, 1845; “Nauvoo Trustee-in-Trust Tithing and Donation Record”, p.220-222 (29 Jan. 1845), LDS archives)

Let's roll it back a few years: 1845

January 14 – The Quorum of the Twelve persuade the saints in an epistle, addressing their concerns for safety in paying tithing. Given the public hesitancy due to some leaders of the church gaining historical reputations for stealing tithing money, they assured: “Those men that we shall select for agents will be men of honor, men of integrity and respectability, in whom we can confide, and who are responsible, and able, and willing to enter into bonds for the faithful performance of their duty. This course will prevent those many impositions which have heretofore been practiced by villains wearing the garb of saints, and place the churches in a situation that they can forward their tithings with safety.” (HC 7:359)

January 29 – The Quorum of the Twelve voted to exempt themselves from the obligation of paying tithing, along with the general bishops (then Newel K. Whitney and George Miller) and the Nauvoo Temple Committee. (Heber C. Kimball diary, January 29, 1845; “Nauvoo Trustee-in-Trust Tithing and Donation Record”, p.220-222 (29 Jan. 1845), LDS archives)

iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 5:01 pm Next level question for Att and Art:

Did Brigham pay tithes or consecrate all his possessions to the Lord while serving as President of the Church?

I think we all know the answer to that.

ransomme wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 5:06 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 3:58 pm Hmm... 12 pages so far.
I wonder where the Atticus/Artaxerxes double act will take us next.

At least the thread has been living up to it's title

In all honesty, the title was tongue in cheek but you’re right - best one I’ve seen yet. Lively and informative!

iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 5:01 pm Next level question for Att and Art:

Did Brigham pay tithes or consecrate all his possessions to the Lord while serving as President of the Church?

Did that include a tithe of church women?

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 5:10 pm

iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 5:01 pm Next level question for Att and Art:

Did Brigham pay tithes or consecrate all his possessions to the Lord while serving as President of the Church?

I think we all know the answer to that.

Some, but not all. And I think the answer is instructive.

ransomme wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 4:51 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 3:22 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 3:16 pm not that anyone cares but I do pay my tithing, although I feel I will change the structure of it, but not the amount. Much more in offerings, and tithe only the surplus.

Thanks, Atticus for bringing this clarity.

Huh? What are you talking about?

your stance was so weak that I took some time to evaluate tithing in my life and the Church. I came across new insights about what the Lord said and intended concerning consecration and tithing. I can now give to the poor and needy more than I was capable of doing before.

This is good, as I strive to be a humble follower of Christ, I can shed myself of another precept of man that I was taught. 2 Nephi 28:14

I still have no idea what you're talking about.

ransomme wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 4:53 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 3:24 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 3:22 pm See... this thread seems to have been quite productive.

When people simply don't care what the scriptures say, what Joseph Smith actually taught, or what the church actually teaches in regards to tithing, there's not much that can be done.

Why do you prescribe negative motives to him? Can you see his heart?

I think he actually does try, especially to see what Joseph taught.

When a statement by Joseph Smith goes against what he's claiming he just waves it away by saying that he doesn't put Joseph Smith on a pedestal. Either that or he just ignores it.

I don't think that's evidence that he really cares about what Joseph taught.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 5:07 pm Old Briggy: September 9, 1851 – Brigham Young announces a policy stating that excommunication is an acceptable punishment for those who are not full tithe payers or those who do not comply to the word of wisdom. This measure was voted on at a special Conference in Salt Lake City. (Hosea Stout’s diary, September 9, 1851, “On the Mormon Frontier: The Diary of Hosea Stout, 1844-1861” p.403)

Super reasonable Christ-like attitude IMO.

Maybe he should have just struck them dead like Jesus did to Ananias and Sapphira, when they tried to withhold their tithing and lied about it?

Atticus wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 5:18 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 4:53 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 3:24 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 3:22 pm See... this thread seems to have been quite productive.

When people simply don't care what the scriptures say, what Joseph Smith actually taught, or what the church actually teaches in regards to tithing, there's not much that can be done.

Why do you prescribe negative motives to him? Can you see his heart?

I think he actually does try, especially to see what Joseph taught.

When a statement by Joseph Smith goes against what he's claiming he just waves it away by saying that he doesn't put Joseph Smith on a pedestal. Either that or he just ignores it.

Why do you care?

ransomme wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 1:48 pm
"Let every member proceed immediately to tithe himself or herself, a tenth of all their property and money…and then let them continue to pay in a tenth of their income from that time forth."

"Let every member proceed immediately to tithe himself or herself" - This is because they had a practice of a one-time tithing of surplus from time to time. D&C 119:1 "Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion,"

"a tenth of all their property and money" - Looks like they are simply including cash with property

Is money not property, too? (hint: yes is is) But since you are apparently confused about this, you can understand why the 12 felt the need to clarify this.

ransomme wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 1:48 pm "and then let them continue to pay in a tenth of their income from that time forth" - Now we have a change that is to continue from then on. They have changed from "interest annually" to "income".

119:4 "And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord."

How do you know they changed what God intended and what Joseph understood? Unless you have a statement by Joseph Smith defining interest as anything besides income, you really don't have an argument.

ransomme wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 1:48 pm BONUS: Fun fact, before section 119 the Saints used the words concentration and tithing interchangeably. They were any free-will offerings given to the Church.

This is irrelevant as we're discussing tithing post the revelation in section 119.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 5:26 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 5:18 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 4:53 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 3:24 pm

When people simply don't care what the scriptures say, what Joseph Smith actually taught, or what the church actually teaches in regards to tithing, there's not much that can be done.

Why do you prescribe negative motives to him? Can you see his heart?

I think he actually does try, especially to see what Joseph taught.

When a statement by Joseph Smith goes against what he's claiming he just waves it away by saying that he doesn't put Joseph Smith on a pedestal. Either that or he just ignores it.

Why do you care?

Seriously? The guy rails against the church night and day and accuses BY of hijacking the church and the modern leaders of teaching falsehoods. But then turns around and dismisses all statements by Joseph Smith that are problematic for his desired narrative. It's super annoying.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 5:15 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 4:51 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 3:22 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 3:16 pm not that anyone cares but I do pay my tithing, although I feel I will change the structure of it, but not the amount. Much more in offerings, and tithe only the surplus.

Thanks, Atticus for bringing this clarity.

Huh? What are you talking about?

your stance was so weak that I took some time to evaluate tithing in my life and the Church. I came across new insights about what the Lord said and intended concerning consecration and tithing. I can now give to the poor and needy more than I was capable of doing before.

This is good, as I strive to be a humble follower of Christ, I can shed myself of another precept of man that I was taught. 2 Nephi 28:14

I still have no idea what you're talking about.

Let me try and explain.

You are an apologist. You KNOW that what you believe is true and so your only objective in engaging those who disagree is to defend the truth. You are not interested in finding truth through discussion because you already know the truth. You will use any argument or strategy at your disposal for this defense.

Generally, during this defense process, the best and strongest arguments possible regarding the validity of that which they are defending wiil make an appearance among the various arguments used by the apologist. If what they are defending really is true, this will be virtually unassailable. But when what they are defending is not true or cannot be proven to be true, their arguments will be able to be countered.

In this case with tithing, the best arguments are rather weak and pathetic. Because what the lord wrote in D&C 119 is so clear and concise and because what the church is currently practicing is very different than that reveleation, the arguments of the apologists are unconvincing. In fact, they are even having to resort to deception by replacing the Lord's words with other words that don't mean the same thing in order to try and defend their position.

I believe this is what ransomme means. The best defense by very good apologists such as yourself are deceptive and weak. This gives confidence that the position you are defending is not actually the truth.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 5:31 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 5:26 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 5:18 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 4:53 pm

Why do you prescribe negative motives to him? Can you see his heart?

I think he actually does try, especially to see what Joseph taught.

When a statement by Joseph Smith goes against what he's claiming he just waves it away by saying that he doesn't put Joseph Smith on a pedestal. Either that or he just ignores it.

Why do you care?

Seriously? The guy rails against the church night and day and accuses BY of hijacking the church and the modern leaders of teaching falsehoods. But then turns around and dismisses all statements by Joseph Smith that are problematic for his desired narrative. It's super annoying.

You've lost me... why do you care again?