Newest and Best Tithing Discussion

[Reluctant Watchman]

Hmm interesting quote I just came across.

1899 General Conference, the Church President Lorenzo Snow:
"I pray that every man, woman and child who has means shall pay one-tenth of their income as a tithing"

He obviously uses the income definition in 1899, but what sticks out is the phrase "who has means". Obviously, he was of the opinion that the poor did not pay.

I use this quote in my essay. And there's more to the story:

"Ironically, in the “Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Lorenzo Snow” lesson manual, that phrase from the conference report reads: “I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child … shall pay one tenth of their income as a tithing”. They intentionally omitted the words “who has means.” In traditional writing ellipses (three dots) are used to significantly shorten a much larger quote or to make the overall message more coherent. It’s quite interesting that ellipses were used in this instance to omit three very important words."

[Subcomandante]

If you don't like to pay tithing, that's perfectly fine.

But don't expect to receive the blessings associated with paying tithing.

If you like to complain about how the LDS Church defines as tithing, there are other churches out there. If they still don't float your boat, try and see if you could do better than the current leaders are doing.

This should be quite the experiment.

[Artaxerxes]

Hmm interesting quote I just came across.

1899 General Conference, the Church President Lorenzo Snow:
"I pray that every man, woman and child who has means shall pay one-tenth of their income as a tithing"

He obviously uses the income definition in 1899, but what sticks out is the phrase "who has means". Obviously, he was of the opinion that the poor did not pay.

Of all people on the planet, there are few that you can be more certain did not believe that.

"The poorest of the poor can pay tithing; the Lord requires it at our hands. … Everybody should pay tithing. … The law shall be observed. … And we shall pay our debts. … God bless you”
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/man ... 5?lang=eng

The inconsistency is duly noted, thanks.

BTW I'll take his quote during GC as President as the authoritative one.

I do not recall are you and Atticus both of the Gross opinion?

I ask because I wonder if you take Total Compensation into account. If you are employed you get a number of benefits that have monetary values. Do you include them too? If you want to know what your Total Compensation is, I am sure that your HR dept. will have that available.

Saying what he hopes is not a statement on what the limit of the commandment is. I hope all kinds of things. Our ward goal is something like 75% ministering or whatever. That doesn't mean it's what the commandment is or isn't.

I actually don't have a firm position on what constitutes income. I think there are a billion different ways to honestly calculate what your income is. I just do my best and try to err on the side of giving.

[Reluctant Watchman]

If you don't like to pay tithing, that's perfectly fine.

But don't expect to receive the blessings associated with paying tithing.

If you like to complain about how the LDS Church defines as tithing, there are other churches out there. If they still don't float your boat, try and see if you could do better than the current leaders are doing.

This should be quite the experiment.

What a twisted view of things. I pay tithing, but not to the LDS org. I care for the poor. I also care for my family.

What I have a beef with is the LDS org harming the poor by their mental gymnastics and distorted doctrine.

[ransomme]

If you don't like to pay tithing, that's perfectly fine.

But don't expect to receive the blessings associated with paying tithing.

If you like to complain about how the LDS Church defines as tithing, there are other churches out there. If they still don't float your boat, try and see if you could do better than the current leaders are doing.

This should be quite the experiment.

[Niemand]

If you don't like to pay tithing, that's perfectly fine.

But don't expect to receive the blessings associated with paying tithing.

If you like to complain about how the LDS Church defines as tithing, there are other churches out there. If they still don't float your boat, try and see if you could do better than the current leaders are doing.

This should be quite the experiment.

Personally speaking, I've never experienced blessings specifically to do with tithing. I don't mean physical facilities etc, although those are welcome.

There are tin tabernacles doing a better job. Before I joined the LDS, the church I was at met in a small shed (less than a hundred foot long) each Sunday that a small football club used... the pastor was paid a stipend but he had to do another job to support himself. They ran a soup kitchen, did weekend retreats, a whole host of things. They disintegrated because they were not well organised but it was good while it lasted. The LDS is the opposite way, it's very well funded, has good physical facilities etc. We do welfare well in some senses, but we do no soup kitchens.

[ransomme]

not that anyone cares but I do pay my tithing, although I feel I will change the structure of it, but not the amount. Much more in offerings, and tithe only the surplus.

Thanks, Atticus for bringing this clarity.

[Reluctant Watchman]

See... this thread seems to have been quite productive.

[LDS Watchman]

not that anyone cares but I do pay my tithing, although I feel I will change the structure of it, but not the amount. Much more in offerings, and tithe only the surplus.

Thanks, Atticus for bringing this clarity.

Huh? What are you talking about?

[LDS Watchman]

See... this thread seems to have been quite productive.

When people simply don't care what the scriptures say, what Joseph Smith actually taught, or what the church actually teaches in regards to tithing, there's not much that can be done.

[briznian]

not that anyone cares but I do pay my tithing, although I feel I will change the structure of it, but not the amount. Much more in offerings, and tithe only the surplus.

Thanks, Atticus for bringing this clarity.

Huh? What are you talking about?

See... this thread seems to have been quite productive.

When people simply don't care what the scriptures say, what Joseph Smith actually taught, or what the church actually teaches in regards to tithing, there's not much that can be done.

The rest of the folks on this board can be 100% wrong and yet its comments like these that make me think, "Why would anyone join the Mormon church? There's not a lot of Christian empathy there."

There's an apocryphal quote about "I like your Christ, but not your Christians". Seems apropo.

[Reluctant Watchman]

See... this thread seems to have been quite productive.

When people simply don't care what the scriptures say, what Joseph Smith actually taught, or what the church actually teaches in regards to tithing, there's not much that can be done.

You are quite the gem. So full of sparkle these days.

[Robin Hood]

Everyone "knows" its between you and the Lord. Everyone also "knows" that its not.

Stop me if you've heard this before: Do you want net blessings or gross blessings?

Gross is definitely part of this discussion, and probably what many ancient prophets thought of as to how modern church leaders err in their wickedness.

Yes, I hesitate to define tithing for anyone else. But after reading JST Gen 14:39 I have come to the conclusion that it's neither gross nor net.

Spot on!

JST Gen 14:39 Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.

When I read that a few years ago, it was my "AHA" moment.
Joseph changed the KJV wording to clarify the principle perfectly.

[LDS Watchman]

not that anyone cares but I do pay my tithing, although I feel I will change the structure of it, but not the amount. Much more in offerings, and tithe only the surplus.

Thanks, Atticus for bringing this clarity.

Huh? What are you talking about?

See... this thread seems to have been quite productive.

When people simply don't care what the scriptures say, what Joseph Smith actually taught, or what the church actually teaches in regards to tithing, there's not much that can be done.

The rest of the folks on this board can be 100% wrong and yet its comments like these that make me think, "Why would anyone join the Mormon church? There's not a lot of Christian empathy there."

There's an apocryphal quote about "I like your Christ, but not your Christians". Seems apropo.

Sometimes the truth hurts.

People such as Reluctant Watchman misrepresent what the church teaches about tithing and then compare this to their own private interpretations of what they believe tithing should be, not what the scriptures or the teachings of Joseph Smith have to say about the subject. Then after rejecting all the statements by Joseph Smith, scriptures, and official official statements by the church on tithing, they have the nerve to make a snarky comments.

[Robin Hood]

Hmm... 12 pages so far.
I wonder where the Atticus/Artaxerxes double act will take us next.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Oh, now I'm the one making snarky comments. You just have a distorted view of what Joseph said, Atti, and what the modern church currently teaches.

[EvanLM]

Why does it matter whether or not the church releases its financial statements to the public or not? Or whether or not there have been a few modifications to how the law of tithing has been administered?

There will always been a reason to doubt. So why not just put the promise in Malachi to the test?

Countless people who have faithfully paid their tithing can attest to having received the promised blessings. The proof is in the pudding.

And thousands haven't.
This prosperity gospel nonsense in the church has to stop.

So let me get this straight. Are you saying that there are thousands of people who have put the Lord to the test and paid their tithing, trusting in him to bless them (per Malachi 3), and then the Lord withheld his promised blessings?

And are you also saying that we should stop teaching the promise the Savior made us in regards to the paying of a full tithe?

I served as a bishop for the best part of 8 years and during that time I saw plenty of evidence of faithful tithe payers clearly struggling. Really struggling. Unable to afford even the basics. I also saw evidence of faithful tithe payers thriving.
So, either God is a respector of persons or something else is going on.

The scripture references you cite from Malachi were addressed to the priests in the main, not especially to the tithe payers. You probably know that already.

But when we get GA's speaking in GC and stating that tithing is paid even if there is no food for the children etc, it makes me very concerned. God does not require the children's bread.
And then when Wendy Nelson spouts her wicked prosperity gospel nonsense it makes my blood boil. You probably remember the talk; it wasn't so long ago.

what propserity talk?

[briznian]

not that anyone cares but I do pay my tithing, although I feel I will change the structure of it, but not the amount. Much more in offerings, and tithe only the surplus.

Thanks, Atticus for bringing this clarity.

Huh? What are you talking about?

See... this thread seems to have been quite productive.

When people simply don't care what the scriptures say, what Joseph Smith actually taught, or what the church actually teaches in regards to tithing, there's not much that can be done.

The rest of the folks on this board can be 100% wrong and yet its comments like these that make me think, "Why would anyone join the Mormon church? There's not a lot of Christian empathy there."

There's an apocryphal quote about "I like your Christ, but not your Christians". Seems apropo.

Sometimes the truth hurts.

People such as Reluctant Watchman misrepresent what the church teaches about tithing and then compare this to their own private interpretations of what they believe tithing should be, not what the scriptures or the teachings of Joseph Smith have to say about the subject. Then after rejecting all the statements by Joseph Smith, scriptures, and official official statements by the church on tithing, they have the nerve to make a snarky comment about how this thread hasn't been very productive.

Whether one has spoken the truth or not is irrelevant.

A man may win the world
Yet if he leaves a path of scored earth and bones in his wake
Has he done any good?

[Reluctant Watchman]

what propserity talk?

This is her talk: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bro ... e?lang=eng

Search "tithing" and you'll find the reference faster.

From my essay:

"While traveling with her husband, Sister Wendy Nelson spoke to the young single adults in a church-wide broadcast. She told them, “When we're desperate to have more money, we eagerly follow the Lord's law of finances. Which is, of course, tithing.” She then related a story of how a young family was paying way more tithing than their income. The bishop asked why and the young father responded, "Oh, I'm not paying on what I make, I'm paying on what I want to make." She concluded the story by stating that the very next year this young man made exactly that amount of money. This is what we call the "Prosperity Gospel” and is a false doctrine because the focus shifts from caring for the poor to financial gain. 2 Nephi 26:31 teaches, “But the laborer in Zion shall labor for Zion; for if they labor for money they shall perish.”

[LDS Watchman]

Gross is definitely part of this discussion, and probably what many ancient prophets thought of as to how modern church leaders err in their wickedness.

Yes, I hesitate to define tithing for anyone else. But after reading JST Gen 14:39 I have come to the conclusion that it's neither gross nor net.

Spot on!

JST Gen 14:39 Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.

When I read that a few years ago, it was my "AHA" moment.
Joseph changed the KJV wording to clarify the principle perfectly.

You'll notice that this tithing of Abraham's surplus property is consistent with the first part of tithing as defined in D&C 119. It does not say anything about the second part of tithing, namely payment of 10% of his income annually.

[Oldemandalton]

Let’s examine Malachi 3 since there has been some confusion on this chapter:

How about we start back in chapter 2... shall we?

Reluctant,

In Malachi 1, the Lord addresses Israel:

Malachi 1:1
The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.

In Malachi 2, he addresses the Priests

Malachi 2:1
And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you.

In Malachi 3, he again addresses Israel and begins with a prophecy of the last days. Given to all Israel, past, present, and future, and not just the priests.

Of course you have to read my post to understand it. Sorry, your attention span must be very short.

[Serragon]

Yes, I hesitate to define tithing for anyone else. But after reading JST Gen 14:39 I have come to the conclusion that it's neither gross nor net.

Spot on!

JST Gen 14:39 Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.

When I read that a few years ago, it was my "AHA" moment.
Joseph changed the KJV wording to clarify the principle perfectly.

You'll notice that this tithing of Abraham's surplus property is consistent with the first part of tithing as defined in D&C 119. It does not say anything about the second part of tithing, namely payment of 10% of his income annually.

Your constant use of the word "income" instead of "interest" when citing D&C 119 is intentionally dishonest. The words are not synonyms, no matter how much you desire it.

The word interest is in harmony with the first part of the section and with JST Gen 14. The word income doesn't fit with the context.

[briznian]

what propserity talk?

This is her talk: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bro ... e?lang=eng

Search "tithing" and you'll find the reference faster.

From my essay:

"While traveling with her husband, Sister Wendy Nelson spoke to the young single adults in a church-wide broadcast. She told them, “When we're desperate to have more money, we eagerly follow the Lord's law of finances. Which is, of course, tithing.” She then related a story of how a young family was paying way more tithing than their income. The bishop asked why and the young father responded, "Oh, I'm not paying on what I make, I'm paying on what I want to make." She concluded the story by stating that the very next year this young man made exactly that amount of money. This is what we call the "Prosperity Gospel” and is a false doctrine because the focus shifts from caring for the poor to financial gain. 2 Nephi 26:31 teaches, “But the laborer in Zion shall labor for Zion; for if they labor for money they shall perish.”

My mission president was a wealthy man. He said that he didn't like the hassle of paying tithing so he calculated what ten years of tithing would be and paid it all up front. He said that in three years he had to start paying tithing again because of the Lord blessed him. Whether the conclusion is correct or not I don't know. It seems that the results vary wildly from person to person.

[briznian]

Spot on!

JST Gen 14:39 Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.

When I read that a few years ago, it was my "AHA" moment.
Joseph changed the KJV wording to clarify the principle perfectly.

You'll notice that this tithing of Abraham's surplus property is consistent with the first part of tithing as defined in D&C 119. It does not say anything about the second part of tithing, namely payment of 10% of his income annually.

Your constant use of the word "income" instead of "interest" when citing D&C 119 is intentionally dishonest. The words are not synonyms, no matter how much you desire it.

The word interest is in harmony with the first part of the section and with JST Gen 14. The word income doesn't fit with the context.

He's just quoting the church: “'one-tenth of all their interest annually,' which is understood to mean income.”

The question then becomes... what does that mean for the church?

[Robin Hood]

Yes, I hesitate to define tithing for anyone else. But after reading JST Gen 14:39 I have come to the conclusion that it's neither gross nor net.

Spot on!

JST Gen 14:39 Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.

When I read that a few years ago, it was my "AHA" moment.
Joseph changed the KJV wording to clarify the principle perfectly.

You'll notice that this tithing of Abraham's surplus property is consistent with the first part of tithing as defined in D&C 119. It does not say anything about the second part of tithing, namely payment of 10% of his income annually.

I have noticed you probably need to brush up on your scriptural history, because this was stuff Abraham had recently acquired as the spoils of war. This wasn't wealth he already had. It was brand new wealth. Income if you like.