Newest and Best Tithing Discussion

[Reluctant Watchman]

I feel these verses do include the priests and the people, but where I diverge is the insistence that "all", particularly the poor, are under this condemnation. When we look to other scriptures, like Mosiah 18, we get an additional witness of how the storehouse is to be used.

Where those who have little still have to give?

I'm talking about those who have none. Like is stated in Mosiah 18, and you so conveniently excluded from your previous post.

[Artaxerxes]

I feel these verses do include the priests and the people, but where I diverge is the insistence that "all", particularly the poor, are under this condemnation. When we look to other scriptures, like Mosiah 18, we get an additional witness of how the storehouse is to be used.

Where those who have little still have to give?

I'm talking about those who have none. Like is stated in Mosiah 18, and you so conveniently excluded from your previous post.

That's never been in your hypotheticals. It's always been "What if they just have enough for food and rent?" That's not having nothing.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I feel these verses do include the priests and the people, but where I diverge is the insistence that "all", particularly the poor, are under this condemnation. When we look to other scriptures, like Mosiah 18, we get an additional witness of how the storehouse is to be used.

D&C 119 specifically states that tithing is for:

2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.

Joseph Smith also repeatedly said that the temple was to be built by the tithing of the people.

If you want to try and draw a parallel between Malachi 3 and Mosiah 18, then it would appear that the parallel is in regards to fast offerings and not tithing.

Malachi 3 specifically mentions that the people were robbing God in tithes and OFFERINGS.

People who have nothing don't pay anything towards caring for the poor and instead receive help from the funds those who are more fortunate have provided.

This is precisely how fast offering funds are administered in the church.

For the record, I have no qualms with tithing. I know it is a true principle. I know that the Lord furthers the cause of Zion only because their hearts are knit together, and there were no poor among them. That's hard to say with a multi-billion dollar mega-church that still convinces poor people, who have literally nothing and cannot cover the basics of survival, to continue to pay on their "income" for "saving" ordinances.

[Artaxerxes]

I feel these verses do include the priests and the people, but where I diverge is the insistence that "all", particularly the poor, are under this condemnation. When we look to other scriptures, like Mosiah 18, we get an additional witness of how the storehouse is to be used.

D&C 119 specifically states that tithing is for:

2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.

Joseph Smith also repeatedly said that the temple was to be built by the tithing of the people.

If you want to try and draw a parallel between Malachi 3 and Mosiah 18, then it would appear that the parallel is in regards to fast offerings and not tithing.

Malachi 3 specifically mentions that the people were robbing God in tithes and OFFERINGS.

People who have nothing don't pay anything towards caring for the poor and instead receive help from the funds those who are more fortunate have provided.

This is precisely how fast offering funds are administered in the church.

For the record, I have no qualms with tithing. I know it is a true principle. I know that the Lord furthers the cause of Zion only because their hearts are knit together, and there were no poor among them. That's hard to say with a multi-billion dollar mega-church that still convinces poor people, who have literally nothing and cannot cover the basics of survival, to continue to pay on their "income."

How does someone with "literally nothing" have income?

[John Tavner]

Actually, I think you better read it again. The Lord says that the WHOLE NATION is robbing him in tithes and offerings.

Actually, I think you better read it again.

I'm quite familiar with what it says. It says that the WHOLE NATION is robbing God in tithes and offerings.

so you keep quoting Malachi 3:9....but if you actually read it in context starting Malachi 2:1 you will see "O ye priests, this commandment is for you." Also if you look at Malachi 2:14 you can clearly see that the "Ye" ie you, that is used in Malachi 3:9 is still referring to the priests. I could go on but I won't. Malachi 3 isn't an island, and it has to be read with at least chapter 2 to get the full meaning and context.

Right. And Malachi 3:3 says specifically bringing into context the rest of what will be spoken saying "and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
He then says He will receive a pure offering " Then the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will please the LORD, as in days of old and years gone by." and in taht time : 5“Then I will draw near to you for judgment. And I will be a swift witness against sorcerers and adulterers and perjurers, against oppressors of the widowed and fatherless, and against those who defraud laborers of their wages and deny justice to the foreigner but do not fear Me,” says the LORD of Hosts.

THe next verses: 7Even from the days of your fathers Ye have turned aside from My statutes, And ye have not taken heed. Turn back unto Me, and I turn back to you, Said Jehovah of Hosts. And ye have said, ‘In what do we turn back?’ (Historical note: Litearlly the priestly class and the highpreists from the beginning failed to follow the Lord. The book of Judges describes their failings and it is almost from teh beginning "their Fathers") FInally 8Doth man deceive God? but ye are deceiving Me, And ye have said: ‘In what have we deceived Thee?’ The tithe and the heave-offering! 9With a curse ye are cursed! And Me ye are deceiving, this nation, all of it. 10Bring in all the tithe unto the treasure-house, Finally : 9You are cursed with a curse, yet you are still robbing Me, even the whole nation. (Robbing God and the nation).

Historical proof?

Nehemiah happened around the same time as Malachi. Nehemiah explains what the people were doing and what the priests were doing. THe people gave their tithes, it was the priests who were robbing them. Nehemiah 13. Nehemiah cleansed the priestly class. The people of course were not perfect, but there was not comment on them not paying tithes. In fact it mostly had to do with the priests not distributing things properly robbing the Levites, keeping for themselves waht they wanted, living where they shouldn't and marrying who they wanted and allowing/guiding the people to desecrate the sabbath. The failure of the people was largely to the corruption of hte priests, but failing to pay tithes was not one of those failures mentioned by Nehemiah. It was the failure of the priests to properly use the tithes, robbing the nation (the whole nation) and God, for their own gain. Note the preists were marrying outside of the covenant and doings some extra shady stuff.

[ransomme]

I relate a personal story. Back in the day my wife and I had good jobs and salaries. Our combined income was equal to at least one of the brotheren's stipends (tru story). Then we moved to a new country with grand plans, Well, we hit a decent phase in our lives and humbly learned much. During that time it felt wrong to pay tithing when some months we had to borrow money to pay rent (and by borrow I mean borrow because we paid it back). Seriously I was receiving a whopping 600-700 bucks of unemployment a month with a wife and three kids. After we moved neither of us had jobs for the first year and a half. Then my wife (after being the president of a small business in the US) went to waitressing (and that's not the half of the lower lows). Anyhow, that went on for a couple of years. I stayed home with the kids (while also applying for jobs) while she would leave Monday afternoons and come back late Saturday nights. Fun times...you should try it. Anyhow, I'll say it again, paying tithes, under those circumstances, was not fulfilling, and feels wrong to this day thinking about now. But I bucked up like a good little camper and did my duty.

Truthfully I never think about it, and only just reflected on it. I didn't think about before this post at all. But since the subject came up and now I have reflected back I think I paid it because of a what-if guilt trip. I have a testimony about the Gospel of Christ, the truthfulness of the BoM, of Joseph Smith as a prophet seer, and revelator, but I never got one about tithing that is true. I think I felt, what if this time I didn't pay and this was the time I needed to in order to receive some unrealized yet hoped-for blessing. I couldn't even really afford the gas for regular attendance to the Temple (FYI right now gas here is like $9 bucks a gallon, normally $6 or so) but I had to pay tithing to keep my recommend. I really didn't do anything. No new clothes for years, maybe a couple of movies a year, no new "toys", no vacations for years (I didn't see my family for over 6 years), etc. Man, you know how often I ate french toast? Almost daily because our neighbor had a child who worked at a grocery store and they'd give us the bread that the store was throwing out, hahaha. When you get dried out bread making pan french toast helps soften it up. As does soaking it in soup or breaking it into pieces in your oatmeal. I'm sure that you'll call that bread my blessing, my mana, but let's try to be serious.

I'm not looking for pity and I am also not complaining at all. For me, it was what it was, and today is what it is. I just think that after walking in those shoes for some years I had something to share on the matter. Usually, I'll just stick to doctrine though, and understanding data, information, patterns, etc.

With all due respect, is it possible that while you were struggling financially that you paid tithing begrudgingly, and therefore missed out on at least some of the promised blessings associated with paying a full tithe?

If by begrudgingly you mean to set it to auto-pay and pray for a miracle as I applied to over 1,000 jobs before getting one after 10 years, then yes. And that's even with a solid resume from 10+ years of upward movement at a fortune 50 company and other professional work before then. I was a perennial Silver medalist. Anhow, just to be clear it wasn't done begrudgingly.

Oh, but I did some minor bookingkeeping for this burrito (chipotle, cafe rio style) chain and got free burritos for a few years. Maybe that was my mana.

Will work for burritos!

[ransomme]

I feel these verses do include the priests and the people, but where I diverge is the insistence that "all", particularly the poor, are under this condemnation. When we look to other scriptures, like Mosiah 18, we get an additional witness of how the storehouse is to be used.

D&C 119 specifically states that tithing is for:

2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.

Joseph Smith also repeatedly said that the temple was to be built by the tithing of the people.

If you want to try and draw a parallel between Malachi 3 and Mosiah 18, then it would appear that the parallel is in regards to fast offerings and not tithing.

Malachi 3 specifically mentions that the people were robbing God in tithes and OFFERINGS.

People who have nothing don't pay anything towards caring for the poor and instead receive help from the funds those who are more fortunate have provided.

This is precisely how fast offering funds are administered in the church.

For the record, I have no qualms with tithing. I know it is a true principle. I know that the Lord furthers the cause of Zion only because their hearts are knit together, and there were no poor among them. That's hard to say with a multi-billion dollar mega-church that still convinces poor people, who have literally nothing and cannot cover the basics of survival, to continue to pay on their "income."

How does someone with "literally nothing" have income?

It's elementary my dear pagan king, people can still have income without being able to make ends meet. In the personal real-life examples that I previously shared, we had unemployment income, or my unemployment + wife's small waitress salary, but the cost of rent, the barest cost of sustenance for five, utilities, gas, various government-mandated insurances, etc. exceeded our income. Having "nothing" is a slight hyperbole in the general context, but it could also mean having nothing to spare, no excess, not enough for one's own needs, and many other ways that could be expressed.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I feel these verses do include the priests and the people, but where I diverge is the insistence that "all", particularly the poor, are under this condemnation. When we look to other scriptures, like Mosiah 18, we get an additional witness of how the storehouse is to be used.

D&C 119 specifically states that tithing is for:

2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.

Joseph Smith also repeatedly said that the temple was to be built by the tithing of the people.

If you want to try and draw a parallel between Malachi 3 and Mosiah 18, then it would appear that the parallel is in regards to fast offerings and not tithing.

Malachi 3 specifically mentions that the people were robbing God in tithes and OFFERINGS.

People who have nothing don't pay anything towards caring for the poor and instead receive help from the funds those who are more fortunate have provided.

This is precisely how fast offering funds are administered in the church.

For the record, I have no qualms with tithing. I know it is a true principle. I know that the Lord furthers the cause of Zion only because their hearts are knit together, and there were no poor among them. That's hard to say with a multi-billion dollar mega-church that still convinces poor people, who have literally nothing and cannot cover the basics of survival, to continue to pay on their "income."

How does someone with "literally nothing" have income?

That quote I pulled from the website states that you are to pay on your paycheck. It was clearly outlined as your "income" in that quote. The money that you make. This is how vague the church is on this statement.

When the church tells its members from the GC pulpit that they are to pay tithing even though they cannot pay rent or put food on the table, they are still asking you to pay on your "income." Your paycheck. Otherwise, they would not have made that statement if they did not include basic necessities as income.

[Artaxerxes]

D&C 119 specifically states that tithing is for:

2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.

Joseph Smith also repeatedly said that the temple was to be built by the tithing of the people.

If you want to try and draw a parallel between Malachi 3 and Mosiah 18, then it would appear that the parallel is in regards to fast offerings and not tithing.

Malachi 3 specifically mentions that the people were robbing God in tithes and OFFERINGS.

People who have nothing don't pay anything towards caring for the poor and instead receive help from the funds those who are more fortunate have provided.

This is precisely how fast offering funds are administered in the church.

For the record, I have no qualms with tithing. I know it is a true principle. I know that the Lord furthers the cause of Zion only because their hearts are knit together, and there were no poor among them. That's hard to say with a multi-billion dollar mega-church that still convinces poor people, who have literally nothing and cannot cover the basics of survival, to continue to pay on their "income."

How does someone with "literally nothing" have income?

It's elementary my dear pagan king, people can still have income without being able to make ends meet. In the personal real-life examples that I previously shared, we had unemployment income, or my unemployment + wife's small waitress salary, but the cost of rent, the barest cost of sustenance for five, utilities, gas, various government-mandated insurances, etc. exceeded our income. Having "nothing" is a slight hyperbole in the general context, but it could also mean having nothing to spare, no excess, not enough for one's own needs, and many other ways that could be expressed.

Does someone who has difficulty making ends meet have "literally nothing"? Not "nothing to spare" but "literally nothing" as Reluctant claimed?

[Artaxerxes]

D&C 119 specifically states that tithing is for:

2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.

Joseph Smith also repeatedly said that the temple was to be built by the tithing of the people.

If you want to try and draw a parallel between Malachi 3 and Mosiah 18, then it would appear that the parallel is in regards to fast offerings and not tithing.

Malachi 3 specifically mentions that the people were robbing God in tithes and OFFERINGS.

People who have nothing don't pay anything towards caring for the poor and instead receive help from the funds those who are more fortunate have provided.

This is precisely how fast offering funds are administered in the church.

For the record, I have no qualms with tithing. I know it is a true principle. I know that the Lord furthers the cause of Zion only because their hearts are knit together, and there were no poor among them. That's hard to say with a multi-billion dollar mega-church that still convinces poor people, who have literally nothing and cannot cover the basics of survival, to continue to pay on their "income."

How does someone with "literally nothing" have income?

That quote I pulled from the website states that you are to pay on your paycheck. It was clearly outlined as your "income" in that quote. The money that you make. This is how vague the church is on this statement.

When the church tells its members from the GC pulpit that they are to pay tithing even though they cannot pay rent or put food on the table, they are still asking you to pay on your "income." Your paycheck. Otherwise, they would not have made that statement if they did not include basic necessities as income.

I don't understand. You selected a quote that you think is vague, yet unequivocally means income? What's vague about it?

[LDS Watchman]

Correct they had to define it, rather they had to re-define it after Joseph's death, not because people didn't understand, but because they were making a policy change.

And yes, Apostles like Page and Hyde.

On what grounds do you claim that the apostles were re-defining the term interest from how Joseph understood it?

[Reluctant Watchman]

I don't understand. You selected a quote that you think is vague, yet unequivocally means income? What's vague about it?

I'm saying the church (LDS org) is vague. They have quotes about tithing in their lesson manuals that seemingly conflict with the other "official" statements.

Answer me this, why did the church tell members who cannot pay rent or put food on the table to pay tithing? According to you they have no "income", yet are still asked to pay.

[LDS Watchman]

I don't understand. You selected a quote that you think is vague, yet unequivocally means income? What's vague about it?

I'm saying the church (LDS org) is vague. They have quotes about tithing in their lesson manuals that seemingly conflict with the other "official" statements.

Answer me this, why did the church tell members who cannot pay rent or put food on the table to pay tithing? According to you they have no "income", yet are still asked to pay.

Once again, here is the official position of the church when it comes to how tithing is calculated:

"The First Presidency has answered this question in this way: “The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this” (First Presidency letter, Mar. 19, 1970).

In other words, the way you define your income, and consequently your tithing, is a matter between you and the Lord. Prayerfully seek the Lord’s guidance on issues like taxes, gifts, scholarships, and other matters to determine what qualifies as a full tithe."

[Oldemandalton]

If the church "takes care of its poor" -
then why are there still poor among us?

Jesus said: For ye have the poor always with you

We live in a meritocracy, for now anyway. Keep voting for progressive Democrats and Republicans and you will soon have your wish, a socialist 'utopia.'

The only ones who can get the poor out of poverty are the poor.

Keys to leaving poverty:
Education
Marriage before having kids
A married man and woman raising kids
Self-Reliance

The Church teaches these principles and gives a leg up to the poor. It is up to them to practice the above fundamentals and escape poverty.

[Artaxerxes]

I don't understand. You selected a quote that you think is vague, yet unequivocally means income? What's vague about it?

I'm saying the church (LDS org) is vague. They have quotes about tithing in their lesson manuals that seemingly conflict with the other "official" statements.

Answer me this, why did the church tell members who cannot pay rent or put food on the table to pay tithing? According to you they have no "income", yet are still asked to pay.

I certainly never said they don't have any income. I have no idea where you're getting that from.

What I've been saying for pages now is that there is a difference between having little and having "literally nothing." Mosiah 18 says that those who have little must pay. The ONLY people it exempts are those with nothing. Not "has a hard time making ends meet," not "has a lot of bills," but nothing.

[Subcomandante]

I don't understand. You selected a quote that you think is vague, yet unequivocally means income? What's vague about it?

I'm saying the church (LDS org) is vague. They have quotes about tithing in their lesson manuals that seemingly conflict with the other "official" statements.

Answer me this, why did the church tell members who cannot pay rent or put food on the table to pay tithing? According to you they have no "income", yet are still asked to pay.

Because sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven.

For you Gentiles it is a hard choice. For those south of the border, it is an easy choice.

Have more faith. The lack of faith over this and many other principles, will contribute to the fall of the Gentiles as described in the Book of Mormon.

[Subcomandante]

If the church "takes care of its poor" -
then why are there still poor among us?

Jesus said: For ye have the poor always with you

We live in a meritocracy, for now anyway. Keep voting for progressive Democrats and Republicans and you will soon have your wish, a socialist 'utopia.'

The only ones who can get the poor out of poverty are the poor.

Keys to leaving poverty:
Education
Marriage before having kids
A married man and woman raising kids
Self-Reliance

The Church teaches these principles and gives a leg up to the poor. It is up to them to practice the above fundamentals and escape poverty.

The irony of this board.

Clamoring for secular freedom yet wishing that the Church applied more socialistic behavior within the institution.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I don't understand. You selected a quote that you think is vague, yet unequivocally means income? What's vague about it?

I'm saying the church (LDS org) is vague. They have quotes about tithing in their lesson manuals that seemingly conflict with the other "official" statements.

Answer me this, why did the church tell members who cannot pay rent or put food on the table to pay tithing? According to you they have no "income", yet are still asked to pay.

Once again, here is the official position of the church when it comes to how tithing is calculated:

"The First Presidency has answered this question in this way: “The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this” (First Presidency letter, Mar. 19, 1970).

In other words, the way you define your income, and consequently your tithing, is a matter between you and the Lord. Prayerfully seek the Lord’s guidance on issues like taxes, gifts, scholarships, and other matters to determine what qualifies as a full tithe."

I agree that it is between you and the Lord, that much we can agree on. Ask any bishop, what does "income" mean?

[Reluctant Watchman]

I don't understand. You selected a quote that you think is vague, yet unequivocally means income? What's vague about it?

I'm saying the church (LDS org) is vague. They have quotes about tithing in their lesson manuals that seemingly conflict with the other "official" statements.

Answer me this, why did the church tell members who cannot pay rent or put food on the table to pay tithing? According to you they have no "income", yet are still asked to pay.

Because sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven.

For you Gentiles it is a hard choice. For those south of the border, it is an easy choice.

Have more faith. The lack of faith over this and many other principles, will contribute to the fall of the Gentiles as described in the Book of Mormon.

Then why did Nephi condemn church leaders for grinding the face of the poor?

[Robin Hood]

Actually, I think you better read it again.

I'm quite familiar with what it says. It says that the WHOLE NATION is robbing God in tithes and offerings.

so you keep quoting Malachi 3:9....but if you actually read it in context starting Malachi 2:1 you will see "O ye priests, this commandment is for you." Also if you look at Malachi 2:14 you can clearly see that the "Ye" ie you, that is used in Malachi 3:9 is still referring to the priests. I could go on but I won't. Malachi 3 isn't an island, and it has to be read with at least chapter 2 to get the full meaning and context.

Right. And Malachi 3:3 says specifically bringing into context the rest of what will be spoken saying "and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
He then says He will receive a pure offering " Then the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will please the LORD, as in days of old and years gone by." and in taht time : 5“Then I will draw near to you for judgment. And I will be a swift witness against sorcerers and adulterers and perjurers, against oppressors of the widowed and fatherless, and against those who defraud laborers of their wages and deny justice to the foreigner but do not fear Me,” says the LORD of Hosts.

THe next verses: 7Even from the days of your fathers Ye have turned aside from My statutes, And ye have not taken heed. Turn back unto Me, and I turn back to you, Said Jehovah of Hosts. And ye have said, ‘In what do we turn back?’ (Historical note: Litearlly the priestly class and the highpreists from the beginning failed to follow the Lord. The book of Judges describes their failings and it is almost from teh beginning "their Fathers") FInally 8Doth man deceive God? but ye are deceiving Me, And ye have said: ‘In what have we deceived Thee?’ The tithe and the heave-offering! 9With a curse ye are cursed! And Me ye are deceiving, this nation, all of it. 10Bring in all the tithe unto the treasure-house, Finally : 9You are cursed with a curse, yet you are still robbing Me, even the whole nation. (Robbing God and the nation).

Historical proof?

Nehemiah happened around the same time as Malachi. Nehemiah explains what the people were doing and what the priests were doing. THe people gave their tithes, it was the priests who were robbing them. Nehemiah 13. Nehemiah cleansed the priestly class. The people of course were not perfect, but there was not comment on them not paying tithes. In fact it mostly had to do with the priests not distributing things properly robbing the Levites, keeping for themselves waht they wanted, living where they shouldn't and marrying who they wanted and allowing/guiding the people to desecrate the sabbath. The failure of the people was largely to the corruption of hte priests, but failing to pay tithes was not one of those failures mentioned by Nehemiah. It was the failure of the priests to properly use the tithes, robbing the nation (the whole nation) and God, for their own gain. Note the preists were marrying outside of the covenant and doings some extra shady stuff.

Excellent post, thank you.

[LDS Watchman]

Ask any bishop, what does "income" mean?

If the Bishop is doing what he is supposed to he will state that this up to the individual member and the Lord. He may also provide some additional counsel as directed by the Spirit.

[Robin Hood]

Correct they had to define it, rather they had to re-define it after Joseph's death, not because people didn't understand, but because they were making a policy change.

And yes, Apostles like Page and Hyde.

On what grounds do you claim that the apostles were re-defining the term interest from how Joseph understood it?

Check out the definition in Websters 1828 dictionary.

[Artaxerxes]

I don't understand. You selected a quote that you think is vague, yet unequivocally means income? What's vague about it?

I'm saying the church (LDS org) is vague. They have quotes about tithing in their lesson manuals that seemingly conflict with the other "official" statements.

Answer me this, why did the church tell members who cannot pay rent or put food on the table to pay tithing? According to you they have no "income", yet are still asked to pay.

Because sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven.

For you Gentiles it is a hard choice. For those south of the border, it is an easy choice.

Have more faith. The lack of faith over this and many other principles, will contribute to the fall of the Gentiles as described in the Book of Mormon.

Then why did Nephi condemn church leaders for grinding the face of the poor?

Because there have been churches that have required more than just a little from those who have little.

[LDS Watchman]

Check out the definition in Websters 1828 dictionary.

I didn't realize that Noah Webster defined how God's laws are to be applied. I always thought that was the job of the highest authorities of the church. You know the people who have actually been called by God to do that.

[Artaxerxes]

Correct they had to define it, rather they had to re-define it after Joseph's death, not because people didn't understand, but because they were making a policy change.

And yes, Apostles like Page and Hyde.

On what grounds do you claim that the apostles were re-defining the term interest from how Joseph understood it?

Check out the definition in Websters 1828 dictionary.

Okay.

TITHE, noun The tenth part of any thing; but appropriately, the tenth part of the increase annually arising from the profits of land and stock, allotted to the clergy for their support. Tithes are personal, predial, or mixed; personal, when accruing from labor, art, trade and navigation; predial, when issuing from the earth, as hay, wood and fruit; and mixed, when accruing from beasts, which are fed from the ground