LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **April 11th, 2022, 10:08 am**

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:52 am
Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 8:52 am
Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 7:56 am
Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 6:21 am

Why does it matter whether or not the church releases its financial statements to the public or not? Or whether or not there have been a few modifications to how the law of tithing has been administered?

There will always been a reason to doubt. So why not just put the promise in Malachi to the test?

Countless people who have faithfully paid their tithing can attest to having received the promised blessings. The proof is in the pudding.
And thousands haven't.
This prosperity gospel nonsense in the church has to stop.
So let me get this straight. Are you saying that there are thousands of people who have put the Lord to the test and paid their tithing, trusting in him to bless them (per Malachi 3), and then the Lord withheld his promised blessings?

And are you also saying that we should stop teaching the promise the Savior made us in regards to the paying of a full tithe?
I served as a bishop for the best part of 8 years and during that time I saw plenty of evidence of faithful tithe payers clearly struggling. Really struggling. Unable to afford even the basics. I also saw evidence of faithful tithe payers thriving.
So, either God is a respector of persons or something else is going on.

The scripture references you cite from Malachi were addressed to the priests in the main, not especially to the tithe payers. You probably know that already.

But when we get GA's speaking in GC and stating that tithing is paid even if there is no food for the children etc, it makes me very concerned. God does not require the children's bread.
And then when Wendy Nelson spouts her wicked prosperity gospel nonsense it makes my blood boil. You probably remember the talk; it wasn't so long ago.

The promise of opening up of the windows of heaven for faithfully paying an honest tithe is not the prosperity gospel.

While the Lord may bless some with financial prosperity for paying tithing, the type of blessing being poured out is not specified. Many people who pay their tithing and are still poor and can attest to being richly blessed in many others ways besides financial prosperity.

The concerned people on this forum would deny the poor these blessing by teaching them that they may rob God because they are poor. That’s so wrong.

Posted: **April 11th, 2022, 10:09 am**

Ontario wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:02 am No matter what 'Church pile of cash' the church leaders get their 'allowance' or earnings from, they shouldn't be receiving any money at all. They should be serving for free like the rest of us.

Hold on there. These guys are special. They have important jobs to do as prophets, seers, and revelators. They can't be bogged down with menial tasks like we do. I mean, come one, that's what King Benjamin taught in the Book of.... oh, wait....

Posted: **April 11th, 2022, 10:11 am**

Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:08 am
Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:52 am
Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 8:52 am
Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 7:56 am

And thousands haven't.
This prosperity gospel nonsense in the church has to stop.
So let me get this straight. Are you saying that there are thousands of people who have put the Lord to the test and paid their tithing, trusting in him to bless them (per Malachi 3), and then the Lord withheld his promised blessings?

And are you also saying that we should stop teaching the promise the Savior made us in regards to the paying of a full tithe?
I served as a bishop for the best part of 8 years and during that time I saw plenty of evidence of faithful tithe payers clearly struggling. Really struggling. Unable to afford even the basics. I also saw evidence of faithful tithe payers thriving.
So, either God is a respector of persons or something else is going on.

The scripture references you cite from Malachi were addressed to the priests in the main, not especially to the tithe payers. You probably know that already.

But when we get GA's speaking in GC and stating that tithing is paid even if there is no food for the children etc, it makes me very concerned. God does not require the children's bread.
And then when Wendy Nelson spouts her wicked prosperity gospel nonsense it makes my blood boil. You probably remember the talk; it wasn't so long ago.
The promise of opening up of the windows of heaven for faithfully paying an honest tithe is not the prosperity gospel.

While the Lord may bless some with financial prosperity for paying tithing, the type of blessing being poured out is not specified. Many people who pay their tithing and are still poor and can attest to being richly blessed in many others ways besides financial prosperity.

The concerned people on this forum would deny the poor these blessing by teaching them that they may rob God because they are poor. That’s so wrong.

Perhaps you should read a little further in Malachi, because the blessings are specified, and they're all temporal.

Posted: **April 11th, 2022, 10:17 am**

Ontario wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:02 am No matter what 'Church pile of cash' the church leaders get their 'allowance' or earnings from, they shouldn't be receiving any money at all. They should be serving for free like the rest of us. They should not get to benefit or make money off of their callings and high positions, while the rest of the Church, especially the needy don't have such advantages, as to get to be famous & write books that sell or be in their high position to invest in church related corporations and make tons of money off those investments.

Such things are only proof that they are using their church positions to make money, when they should be using their time and 'personal' money to help the poor, not make money off what the poor give them.

It astounds me that any church leader, let alone weathy ones, would receive a penny from the Church. Well, actually I am not surprised because the Church is so far gone into apostasy and it's leaders are so corrupt, that I'm surprised it still does as much good as it does, I attribute that to the good and honorable members who are just to blind to see their deception. And I'm sure the leaders do some good things still in order 'to look good' and keep up the front.

But few members will ever awake and question the church's & leader's actions, they will keep blindly paying into such a corrupt system and Church, because even that is much easier than studying out the truth and standing for right and living worthy of the Spirit to detect right from wrong themselves.

Most people like blindly playing 'follow the leader' it's so much easier than personal responsibility for one's own salvation.

Most members and lower leaders are probably 'good & honorable' people who have just been duped and deceived by the craftiness of higher church leaders and false prophets in the Church. But I believe the higher leaders know too much to be ignorantly going along with all this evil.

Nevertheless, all those who are deceived to go along with evil, even those who don't realize it, will lose their Exaltation and eternal family, as Joseph Smith taught. (D&C 45 & 76)

So it's vital that we awake and stop supporting evil leaders and a corrupt Church, and focus on living & studying the Gospel on our own, as families or with friends, and give all our tithing and offerings directly to the needy right around us, to make sure it gets to where it should. That is the only responsible thing to do now

I have no problem with expenses being met. For example, if an apostle is to visit another country the church should buy his plane ticket and pay for his accommodation etc. But why should he receive $160,000 stipend on top of that?
And these men are usually quite well off, having had successful careers etc, and are receiving pensions and other income as well.

Posted: **April 11th, 2022, 10:25 am**

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:36 am
ransomme wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 8:34 am
Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 7:46 am Orson Hyde didn't say that his interpretation of the poor not being required to pay tithing was taught to him by Joseph Smith.
From where did Orson Hyde learn about "the celestial law" if not from Joseph? This was only 2 1/2 years after Joseph's death so I think his teachings came from the Revelator Joseph and hadn't changed much, yet. Not before obvious documented changes that came later.
Poor no tithing.JPG

Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 7:46 am He was also a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, so if we are to buy into the popular "Brigham and the 12 were evil and hijacked the church" conspiracy theory, there would be no reason to hold Orson Hyde up as a credible source.
Are we not talking about the interpretation of tithing as applied today in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints? Quoting Orson Hyde seems proper.
We're just assuming that anything the Twelve taught came from Joseph? That's the standard we're going with?

But even before he said that, John E. Page left the church specifically because he thought the church was wrong to tithe the poor. Orson's opinion was clearly the outlier, not the view of the church at large.

Not assuming per se. But from where do you think a Q12 member from Joseph's era learned about "the celestial law"? It's not exactly rocket science. Who received the revelation? Who was the leading authority at that time? etc. etc.

Correct Page left first. I didn't see from whom he received his orders. Could it have been from the head of Quorum or the President of the Church?

We know that Hyde was in charge of the Millenial Star at that time. Do you think Hyde had to get daily marching orders or just did his job and wrote what he knew?

If anything it speaks to the state of flux that things were in at the time, from doctrine to whether to stay or to go west and more.

Posted: **April 11th, 2022, 10:40 am**

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:11 am
Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:08 am
Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:52 am
Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 8:52 am

So let me get this straight. Are you saying that there are thousands of people who have put the Lord to the test and paid their tithing, trusting in him to bless them (per Malachi 3), and then the Lord withheld his promised blessings?

And are you also saying that we should stop teaching the promise the Savior made us in regards to the paying of a full tithe?
I served as a bishop for the best part of 8 years and during that time I saw plenty of evidence of faithful tithe payers clearly struggling. Really struggling. Unable to afford even the basics. I also saw evidence of faithful tithe payers thriving.
So, either God is a respector of persons or something else is going on.

The scripture references you cite from Malachi were addressed to the priests in the main, not especially to the tithe payers. You probably know that already.

But when we get GA's speaking in GC and stating that tithing is paid even if there is no food for the children etc, it makes me very concerned. God does not require the children's bread.
And then when Wendy Nelson spouts her wicked prosperity gospel nonsense it makes my blood boil. You probably remember the talk; it wasn't so long ago.
The promise of opening up of the windows of heaven for faithfully paying an honest tithe is not the prosperity gospel.

While the Lord may bless some with financial prosperity for paying tithing, the type of blessing being poured out is not specified. Many people who pay their tithing and are still poor and can attest to being richly blessed in many others ways besides financial prosperity.

The concerned people on this forum would deny the poor these blessing by teaching them that they may rob God because they are poor. That’s so wrong.
Perhaps you should read a little further in Malachi, because the blessings are specified, and they're all temporal.

Temporal blessing doesn't necessarily equal financial prosperity. There are many other ways for someone to be be blessed temporarily besides blessing them with financial prosperity. How about just having enough food to eat, having a roof over their head, old beat up car keeps on running a little bit longer, etc.

Either way, Malachi 3 says what it says. The Lord tells the people that the whole nation is robbing him in tithes and offerings and calls on them to pay an honest and full tithe and promises to bless them in abundance for doing this. If you think this is wrong and preaching the "prosperity gospel" I suggest you take that up with God.

Posted: **April 11th, 2022, 10:53 am**

ransomme wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:25 am If anything it speaks to the state of flux that things were in at the time, from doctrine to whether to stay or to go west and more.

In "History of the Church" Period 2, Volume VII they refer to this period as the "apostolic interregnum". There was no organized Presidency of the Church from June 27, 1844, until December 5, 1847. The church was essentially presidency-less for 3.5 years. Or better put, the church voted to let the 12 run things for a while - sans-presidency.

All "revelations" regarding tithing during that period are A) just straight up guesswork or B) Brigham and the loyal remaining apostles putting together whatever policy they deemed necessary to hold the church together. This included more than tithing, although financial issues were of primary importance - they were even trying to sell the Nauvoo Temple to the Catholic Church during that time. Eventually that fell through, of course (guessing the Catholics knew the LDS were getting kicked out of Illinois and paying for it was a bum deal when they could get it for free). Then the temple mysteriously caught fire. Huh. Long story short, the way Joseph had intermingled the finances of the church with his personal finances left them in a huge hole and in need of a capital raise.

Anyway, read the footnotes of how Brigham was able to re-organize the Presidency. He went to Woodruff in late 1847 and said, "Hey, pal, would you support me as President?" Woodruff says, "Well, it took a revelation to form a Presidency last time. It would take a revelation this time, too." Whereupon the next day the 12 "had a revelation" and nominated Brigham as President of the Church.

Fascinating stuff, really.

Posted: **April 11th, 2022, 11:04 am**

Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:40 am
Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:11 am
Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:08 am
Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:52 am

I served as a bishop for the best part of 8 years and during that time I saw plenty of evidence of faithful tithe payers clearly struggling. Really struggling. Unable to afford even the basics. I also saw evidence of faithful tithe payers thriving.
So, either God is a respector of persons or something else is going on.

The scripture references you cite from Malachi were addressed to the priests in the main, not especially to the tithe payers. You probably know that already.

But when we get GA's speaking in GC and stating that tithing is paid even if there is no food for the children etc, it makes me very concerned. God does not require the children's bread.
And then when Wendy Nelson spouts her wicked prosperity gospel nonsense it makes my blood boil. You probably remember the talk; it wasn't so long ago.
The promise of opening up of the windows of heaven for faithfully paying an honest tithe is not the prosperity gospel.

While the Lord may bless some with financial prosperity for paying tithing, the type of blessing being poured out is not specified. Many people who pay their tithing and are still poor and can attest to being richly blessed in many others ways besides financial prosperity.

The concerned people on this forum would deny the poor these blessing by teaching them that they may rob God because they are poor. That’s so wrong.
Perhaps you should read a little further in Malachi, because the blessings are specified, and they're all temporal.
Temporal blessing doesn't necessarily equal financial prosperity. There are many other ways for someone to be be blessed temporarily besides blessing them with financial prosperity. How about just having enough food to eat, having a roof over their head, old beat up car keeps on running a little bit longer, etc.

Either way, Malachi 3 says what it says. The Lord tells the people that the whole nation is robbing him in tithes and offerings and calls on them to pay an honest and full tithe and promises to bless them in abundance for doing this. If you think this is wrong and preaching the "prosperity gospel" I suggest you take that up with God.

And what about all those people who have enough to eat, have a roof over their heads, and whose old beat up car keeps running a little bit longer etc... and who don't pay a penny in tithing?

Posted: **April 11th, 2022, 11:14 am**

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:17 am
I have no problem with expenses being met. For example, if an apostle is to visit another country the church should buy his plane ticket and pay for his accommodation etc. But why should he receive $160,000 stipend on top of that?
And these men are usually quite well off, having had successful careers etc, and are receiving pensions and other income as well.

$160,000 is a pittance compared to the salary they would receive in their past or future careers. Some gave up seven figure incomes to accept their callings.

Besides, which leader of a large corporation makes a paltry $160K?

Posted: **April 11th, 2022, 11:15 am**

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:04 am
Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:40 am
Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:11 am
Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:08 am

The promise of opening up of the windows of heaven for faithfully paying an honest tithe is not the prosperity gospel.

While the Lord may bless some with financial prosperity for paying tithing, the type of blessing being poured out is not specified. Many people who pay their tithing and are still poor and can attest to being richly blessed in many others ways besides financial prosperity.

The concerned people on this forum would deny the poor these blessing by teaching them that they may rob God because they are poor. That’s so wrong.
Perhaps you should read a little further in Malachi, because the blessings are specified, and they're all temporal.
Temporal blessing doesn't necessarily equal financial prosperity. There are many other ways for someone to be be blessed temporarily besides blessing them with financial prosperity. How about just having enough food to eat, having a roof over their head, old beat up car keeps on running a little bit longer, etc.

Either way, Malachi 3 says what it says. The Lord tells the people that the whole nation is robbing him in tithes and offerings and calls on them to pay an honest and full tithe and promises to bless them in abundance for doing this. If you think this is wrong and preaching the "prosperity gospel" I suggest you take that up with God.
And what about all those people who have enough to eat, have a roof over their heads, and whose old beat up car keeps running a little bit longer etc... and who don't pay a penny in tithing?

What about them?

Posted: **April 11th, 2022, 11:19 am**

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:14 am $160,000 is a pittance compared to the salary they would receive in their past or future careers. Some gave up seven figure incomes to accept their callings.

Besides, which leader of a large corporation makes a paltry $160K?

What a sacrifice to serve the Lord.

Posted: **April 11th, 2022, 11:22 am**

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:14 am
Besides, which leader of a large corporation makes a paltry $160K?

Did you miss the irony when you referred to the church as a business?

Posted: **April 11th, 2022, 11:25 am**

I can't help but think of Alma preaching to the people and almost dying of hunger and thirst because he was cast out of the cities. Just like the Q15 jetting around the globe and having to eat airplane food while over the ocean.

Posted: **April 11th, 2022, 11:30 am**

The Lord has promised blessings for those who give tithes and offerings. Those blessing are temporal and spiritual. Do we receive blessings immediately? Sometimes. At times God will test our faith. We all will receive a test faith at one time in our life or another. It may not be about tithing, but we all will be tested. Some will pass that test, others sadly will not.

How much is tithing on zero dollars? Zero.

I have been in leadership positions in the church most of my life. I have seen poor members faithfully pay tithing. If they lack food or rent, we are quick to help. I have never seen a faithful tithe payer go hungry or homeless in the church. That is one of the main responsibilities of a Bishop, Elder's Quorum President, and Relief Society President. To care for the needy and faithful members of the Church.

Posted: **April 11th, 2022, 11:34 am**

iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:22 am
Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:14 am
Besides, which leader of a large corporation makes a paltry $160K?
Did you miss the irony when you referred to the church as a business?

Irony or truth? Not ironic because any of these men could be leading a major corporation or University making ten times their stipend.

Posted: **April 11th, 2022, 11:43 am**

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:14 am
Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:17 am
I have no problem with expenses being met. For example, if an apostle is to visit another country the church should buy his plane ticket and pay for his accommodation etc. But why should he receive $160,000 stipend on top of that?
And these men are usually quite well off, having had successful careers etc, and are receiving pensions and other income as well.
$160,000 is a pittance compared to the salary they would receive in their past or future careers. Some gave up seven figure incomes to accept their callings.

Besides, which leader of a large corporation makes a paltry $160K?

These are men of God, not corporate businessmen.
And most of them gave up nothing because their careers we over. These are old men.
Why do they need anything in their 70's 80's and 90's? They certainly wouldn't be pulling down salaries of any figures at that age. It's indefensible.

Posted: **April 11th, 2022, 11:50 am**

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:34 am
iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:22 am
Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:14 am
Besides, which leader of a large corporation makes a paltry $160K?
Did you miss the irony when you referred to the church as a business?
Irony or truth? Not ironic because any of these men could be leading a major corporation or University making ten times their stipend.

Right, right, no argument about their qualifications. None at all, really. I suppose the irony is the "no purse or scrip" and "gold and silver have I none" arguments have been tossed out and in exchange, we have "stipends" equivalent to over 3x the median US salary and about 10x the poverty line. It's interesting for men of God to esteem themselves so much more valuable than the common man.

Some thoughts about Christ's ministry and the requirement He laid on His Apostles:

There is a thread throughout Christ's ministry, and that of his apostles, wherein He placed Himself in physical want/need so that others could serve Him. When He sent His apostles out, he made that a requirement for them too - no extra cloak, no slush fund, no "stipend". The idea is for the servant to not be greater than the Master in terms of wealth or apparel. He made it this way in order that service would go both ways - the community would serve the apostles, and the apostles would serve the community. It's a mutual dependency kinda thing. Therefore, Peter et al "left their nets" and "became fishers of men". They didn't leave their nets for bigger nets or to open shopping malls and oversee real estate portfolios.

I don't think $160k is a big deal. But I think it misses the bigger picture, and it certainly misses the point of everything Christ taught during his ministry.

One further note, and I apologize for the lengthiness of my reply.

The widow and her 2 mites. That was a donation to the temple treasury - it was purely voluntary, not anything to do with tithing. The Savior noted that she put in every last cent she had. And what did He say next? "Not one stone would be left upon another in that temple." Why not? Because the priestly caste was literally devouring widows' houses, and the widow's mites were proof. In short, her contribution was given to her credit, but to the condemnation of those who received it because they literally starved her and her family for it. This should serve as a warning to any religious institution that would rather deprive the poor than give to them.

Posted: **April 11th, 2022, 11:52 am**

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:43 am
These are men of God, not corporate businessmen.
And most of them gave up nothing because their careers we over. These are old men.
Why do they need anything in their 70's 80's and 90's? They certainly wouldn't be pulling down salaries of any figures at that age. It's indefensible.

How many men in their 70's 80's and 90's still work 10-12 hour days? If they did, they would still be making 7 figure incomes. Most men their age would be retired and play golf or sitting around enjoying their retirement rather than sitting in meetings all day long or traveling around the world teaching and witnessing of Christ on every continent, clime, or region.

Posted: **April 11th, 2022, 11:52 am**

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:43 am
Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:14 am
Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:17 am
I have no problem with expenses being met. For example, if an apostle is to visit another country the church should buy his plane ticket and pay for his accommodation etc. But why should he receive $160,000 stipend on top of that?
And these men are usually quite well off, having had successful careers etc, and are receiving pensions and other income as well.
$160,000 is a pittance compared to the salary they would receive in their past or future careers. Some gave up seven figure incomes to accept their callings.

Besides, which leader of a large corporation makes a paltry $160K?
These are men of God, not corporate businessmen.
And most of them gave up nothing because their careers we over. These are old men.
Why do they need anything in their 70's 80's and 90's? They certainly wouldn't be pulling down salaries of any figures at that age. It's indefensible.

They're old today. That doesn't mean they didn't give up careers. Elder Anderson was a GA at 42.

But who cares? They're not paid by tithing.

Posted: **April 11th, 2022, 12:04 pm**

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:30 am The Lord has promised blessings for those who give tithes and offerings. Those blessing are temporal and spiritual. Do we receive blessings immediately? Sometimes. At times God will test our faith. We all will receive a test faith at one time in our life or another. It may not be about tithing, but we all will be tested. Some will pass that test, others sadly will not.

How much is tithing on zero dollars? Zero.

I have been in leadership positions in the church most of my life. I have seen poor members faithfully pay tithing. If they lack food or rent, we are quick to help. I have never seen a faithful tithe payer go hungry or homeless in the church. That is one of the main responsibilities of a Bishop, Elder's Quorum President, and Relief Society President. To care for the needy and faithful members of the Church.

Of course poor people who give are rewarded by the Lord. That has never been in question. The issue is not with them.

The issue is with people like you. People who have spent years in leadership and have required the poor to live a Law that is of your own making instead of what the Lord actually said. People like you who have put burdens on the backs of the poor in some misguided attempt to ensure suffering so that they can be "blessed". The Lord did not require this of them. You did.

The faithful will try and live the Lord's commandments no matter their financial state. And the Lord will reward them for their faith. But that doesn't change the fact that our current leaders, including yourself, have made a mockery of God's Law as stated in D&C 119 and have unnecessarily burdened and causes suffering to those who are already burdened. You didn't ease their burden making it so they couldn't shop for their own groceries or pay their own bills. You didn't ease their burden by then making them go through the humiliating process of having a RS president go through their cupboards and decide what food they needed and then take that food order to a distribution center to go through the humiliating process of having someone shop with them so they don't take anything they shouldn't.

You and other leaders have been practicing unrighteous dominion with this man-made reinterpretation of D&C119. Our Lord is gracious and does bless these people, but it is in spite of you and not because of this misguided, burdensome teaching you continue to defend and propogate.

Posted: **April 11th, 2022, 12:04 pm**

Those that don't want to pay tithing, certainly won't want to pay consecration if the Lord would require it of them (and He does, if you have been endowed).

People make tithing more complicated than what it needs to be.

Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven.

Posted: **April 11th, 2022, 12:09 pm**

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:43 am ... It's indefensible.

This.

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:52 am But who cares? They're not paid by tithing.

This is double speak. How many times a day do the missionaries engage in this line of argument:

"You should pay your tithing because everything we have belongs to God anyway so paying tithing isn't giving 10% but rather we get to keep 90% blah blah blah..."

If everything belongs to God then it is disingenuous to claim "Its all His... except this pile right here, that's ours to do what we want with, including paying ourselves."

Posted: **April 11th, 2022, 12:17 pm**

iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:50 am

Right, right, no argument about their qualifications. None at all, really. I suppose the irony is the "no purse or scrip" and "gold and silver have I none" arguments have been tossed out and in exchange, we have "stipends" equivalent to over 3x the median US salary and about 10x the poverty line. It's interesting for men of God to estimate themselves so much more valuable.

If the Prophet and apostles are equivalent to a corporate board of directors, their average salary would be $300,000 to $500,000. Not $160k.

There is a thread throughout Christ's ministry, and that of his apostles, wherein He placed Himself in physical want/need so that others could serve Him. When He sent His apostles out, he made that a requirement for them too - no extra cloak, no slush fund, no "stipend". The idea is for the servant to not be greater than the Master in terms of wealth or apparel. He made it this way in order that service would go both ways - the community would serve the apostles, and the apostles would serve the community. It's a mutual dependency kinda thing. Therefore, Peter et al "left their nets" and "became fishers of men". They didn't leave their nets for bigger nets or to open shopping malls and oversee real estate portfolios.

I don't think $160k is a big deal. But I think it misses the bigger picture, and it certainly misses the point of everything Christ taught during his ministry.

The Apostles did leave their nets and gave up high paying jobs to serve full time as prophets and apostles.

As for going without purse or script that was a custom of the time of Christ and even at the beginning of the restoration and is no longer practiced. Teachers would travel and ask to stay in homes of those thy taught, ask to be fed, and even ask for cloths from those they taught. We live in a totally different world today. The great majority of Church officials are part time and have not 'left their nets.' Bishops, Elder's Quorum presidents, and Relief Society Presidents put in 10, 20, or even 30 hours a week to fulfill their duties. Not to mentions Stake Presidencies and High Counselors. None have 'left their nets.' We work fulltime jobs and work part time for the Lord. Is that right? That's how it has been organized in our day.

One further note, and I apologize for the lengthiness of my reply. The widow and her 2 mites. That was a donation to the temple treasury - it was purely voluntary, not anything to do with tithing. The Savior noted that she put in every last cent she had. And what did he say next? Not one stone would be left upon another in that temple. Why not? Because the priestly caste was literally devouring widows' houses, and the priestly caste was entirely corrupt. In short, her contribution was given to her credit, but to the condemnation of those who received it because they literally starved her and her family for it. This should serve as a warning to any religious institution that would rather deprive the poor than give to them.

Well said.

No one forced the widow to give her last penny. She did it voluntarily and was blessed for it. The others gave of their wealth and received their 'reward' for that too. The reward of fame and the acclaim of men!

The Church does not 'deprive the poor.' The faithful poor give willingly of the little they have because they have faith that God will bless them. And He does! The Church looks after the faithful poor to make sure they do not go hungry or homeless.

Posted: **April 11th, 2022, 12:18 pm**

briznian wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 12:09 pm
Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:43 am ... It's indefensible.
This.

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:52 am But who cares? They're not paid by tithing.
This is double speak. How many times a day do the missionaries engage in this line of argument:

"You should pay your tithing because everything we have belongs to God anyway so paying tithing isn't giving 10% but rather we get to keep 90% blah blah blah..."

If everything belongs to God then it is disingenuous to claim "Its all His... except this pile right here, that's ours to do what we want with, including paying ourselves."

I don't understand. The Lord does allow us to keep 90%, and are given discretion on how we use it. I don't know what they spend their 90% on, and I suspect folk on here don't either. Why are people going out of their way to judge people without even knowing anything?

Posted: **April 11th, 2022, 12:26 pm**

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 12:18 pm Why are people going out of their way to judge people without even knowing anything?

Except we DO know. They are paid. They admitted it themselves. Doesn't matter what pile they claim it to come from. It is wrong. It is indefensible.

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