LDS Freedom Forum

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:09 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:04 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:43 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:40 pm

Please stop trying to dodge and move the goal posts and just answer the questions I posed.

Who said that the penalty signs are Satanic?

What evidence do you have that BY corrupted the endowment from how it was revealed by Joseph?

And finally, Joseph Smith taught that that masonry was a corrupted form of the endowment, and yet you say that BY corrupted the endowment and made it Satanic by adding the masonic stuff. Please address this.

I know they are satanic. I said they are.

Because BY was in cahoots w/ those who killed Joseph. Joseph wasn’t a polygamist.

Of course you don’t believe any of this and we diverge great in our opinions. We disagree. Nothing new here.

So it appears that you can't back up a single one of your charges.

Sounds about right.

I don’t have to “prove” (back up) to you what I’ve come to know for myself. You believe much of what current church leaders teach, I don’t.

What you claim you "know" for yourself directly contradicts historical fact. Joseph Smith literally taught that masonry is a corrupted form of the endowment. And yet here you claim to "know" that BY corrupted the endowment revealed by Joseph Smith by... wait for it... making it masonic.

Holy men in the scriptures covenanted to give up their own lives life (or the lives of their children) if they failed to fulfill their end of a covenant. Were these men Satanic?

Was Joseph Smith Satanic for introducing the endowment (with distinct similarities to masonry) and telling people that this was required for the highest salvation?

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:12 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:10 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:45 pm BTW, ask any child to make a promise that they’ll kill themselves (or allow themselves to be killed) if they divulge information. We call that child abuse today. Pedophiles and abominable men do those types of things.

Were young children ever endowed?

Nope.

Seriously… you can’t make the correlation that regardless of who the person is, blood oaths are wrong? The first blood oath made was between Satan and Cain.

Again, Satanic "blood oaths" are for the purpose of committing secret murder and getting gain. This has nothing to do with what goes on in the temple, now or in the past.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:10 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:05 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:59 pm Maybe you TBMs agree with this statement. RMN sure did.

“When we're desperate to have more money, we eagerly follow the Lord's law of finances. Which is, of course, tithing.”

Yeah. Can you believe a prophet is telling people to keep the Lord's commandments, even when it's hard??? How absurd!

Eta: Remember that idiot widow of zeraphath who was desperate for food but gave it away to Elijah like a sucker? No prophet would ever ask her to give away the last of her food!

So you think paying tithing is intended for the acquisition of money?

No, I think the Lord takes care of the righteous. Whatever your problem is, the solution always starts with keeping the commandments. If you're concerned about paying your bills, keep the commandments. If you're concerned about your kids, keep the commandments. If you're concerned about the direction of the world, keep the commandments. That's all he's saying, which is exactly what the scriptures teach.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:14 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:05 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:59 pm Maybe you TBMs agree with this statement. RMN sure did.

“When we're desperate to have more money, we eagerly follow the Lord's law of finances. Which is, of course, tithing.”

Yeah. Can you believe a prophet is telling people to keep the Lord's commandments, even when it's hard??? How absurd!

Eta: Remember that idiot widow of zeraphath who was desperate for food but gave it away to Elijah like a sucker? No prophet would ever ask her to give away the last of her food!

BTW, the quote was from Wendy, all the while her hubby was sitting behind her. You guys have such a bizarre interpretation of tithing and caring for the poor.

I think I’d have enough fun for one day.

How dare she tell people to keep the commandments?

Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:17 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:09 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:04 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:43 pm
I know they are satanic. I said they are.

Because BY was in cahoots w/ those who killed Joseph. Joseph wasn’t a polygamist.

Of course you don’t believe any of this and we diverge great in our opinions. We disagree. Nothing new here.

So it appears that you can't back up a single one of your charges.

Sounds about right.

I don’t have to “prove” (back up) to you what I’ve come to know for myself. You believe much of what current church leaders teach, I don’t.

What you claim you "know" for yourself directly contradicts historical fact. Joseph Smith literally taught that masonry is a corrupted form of the endowment. And yet here you claim to "know" that BY corrupted the endowment revealed by Joseph Smith by... wait for it... making it masonic.

Holy men in the scriptures covenanted to give up their own lives life (or the lives of their children) if they failed to fulfill their end of a covenant. Were these men Satanic?

Was Joseph Smith Satanic for introducing the endowment (with distinct similarities to masonry) and telling people that this was required for the highest salvation?

You throw around the term “historical fact” like a play toy.

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:21 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:14 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:05 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:59 pm Maybe you TBMs agree with this statement. RMN sure did.

“When we're desperate to have more money, we eagerly follow the Lord's law of finances. Which is, of course, tithing.”

Yeah. Can you believe a prophet is telling people to keep the Lord's commandments, even when it's hard??? How absurd!

Eta: Remember that idiot widow of zeraphath who was desperate for food but gave it away to Elijah like a sucker? No prophet would ever ask her to give away the last of her food!

BTW, the quote was from Wendy, all the while her hubby was sitting behind her. You guys have such a bizarre interpretation of tithing and caring for the poor.

I think I’d have enough fun for one day.

How dare she tell people to keep the commandments?

No wonder you have the perceptions that you do.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:07 pm

Church_of_the_Lamb wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:48 pm Anyone using Malachi 3 to justify members getting blessed for paying tithing needs to go re-read from chapter 1. It is the priests of Israel getting chewed out for stealing the tithes for themselves. Will a man rob god? that is what the priests of the Israelites were doing...its also what is happening today in the modern church. Malachi condemns the modern church.

Actually, I think you better read it again. The Lord says that the WHOLE NATION is robbing him in tithes and offerings.

Actually, I think you better read it again.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:22 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:21 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:14 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:05 pm

Yeah. Can you believe a prophet is telling people to keep the Lord's commandments, even when it's hard??? How absurd!

Eta: Remember that idiot widow of zeraphath who was desperate for food but gave it away to Elijah like a sucker? No prophet would ever ask her to give away the last of her food!

BTW, the quote was from Wendy, all the while her hubby was sitting behind her. You guys have such a bizarre interpretation of tithing and caring for the poor.

I think I’d have enough fun for one day.

How dare she tell people to keep the commandments?

No wonder you have the perceptions that you do.

That the commandments are good? Guilty as charged, I guess.

And I guess that explains why you have the perceptions that you do.

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:24 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:22 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:21 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:14 pm

BTW, the quote was from Wendy, all the while her hubby was sitting behind her. You guys have such a bizarre interpretation of tithing and caring for the poor.

I think I’d have enough fun for one day.

How dare she tell people to keep the commandments?

No wonder you have the perceptions that you do.

That the commandments are good? Guilty as charged, I guess.

And I guess that explains why you have the perceptions that you do.

You guys have such a baffling view of doctrine, it is truly astounding. I wish you well my friend. Keep paying your tithes to the LDS corp.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:21 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:17 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:09 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:04 pm

So it appears that you can't back up a single one of your charges.

Sounds about right.

I don’t have to “prove” (back up) to you what I’ve come to know for myself. You believe much of what current church leaders teach, I don’t.

What you claim you "know" for yourself directly contradicts historical fact. Joseph Smith literally taught that masonry is a corrupted form of the endowment. And yet here you claim to "know" that BY corrupted the endowment revealed by Joseph Smith by... wait for it... making it masonic.

Holy men in the scriptures covenanted to give up their own lives life (or the lives of their children) if they failed to fulfill their end of a covenant. Were these men Satanic?

Was Joseph Smith Satanic for introducing the endowment (with distinct similarities to masonry) and telling people that this was required for the highest salvation?

You throw around the term “historical fact” like a play toy.

It's a known fact that the masonic elements were part of the endowment Joseph administered in the Red Brick store. It's also a well known fact that Joseph taught that masonry was a corrupted form of the endowment.

What I said about the Holy men in the scriptures is a fact to.

Church_of_the_Lamb wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:22 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:07 pm

Church_of_the_Lamb wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:48 pm Anyone using Malachi 3 to justify members getting blessed for paying tithing needs to go re-read from chapter 1. It is the priests of Israel getting chewed out for stealing the tithes for themselves. Will a man rob god? that is what the priests of the Israelites were doing...its also what is happening today in the modern church. Malachi condemns the modern church.

Actually, I think you better read it again. The Lord says that the WHOLE NATION is robbing him in tithes and offerings.

Actually, I think you better read it again.

I'm quite familiar with what it says. It says that the WHOLE NATION is robbing God in tithes and offerings.

I found this in the TBM version of the NT:

“And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye tithed one of the least of these my brethren, ye have tithed it unto me.”

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:27 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:24 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:22 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:21 pm

How dare she tell people to keep the commandments?

No wonder you have the perceptions that you do.

That the commandments are good? Guilty as charged, I guess.

And I guess that explains why you have the perceptions that you do.

You guys have such a baffling view of doctrine, it is truly astounding. I wish you well my friend. Keep paying your tithes to the LDS corp.

"Keep the commandments."
"But what if it's hard!?!"
"Still, keep the commandments."
"Well, I'm baffled."

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:39 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:27 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:24 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:22 pm
No wonder you have the perceptions that you do.

That the commandments are good? Guilty as charged, I guess.

And I guess that explains why you have the perceptions that you do.

You guys have such a baffling view of doctrine, it is truly astounding. I wish you well my friend. Keep paying your tithes to the LDS corp.

"Keep the commandments."
"But what if it's hard!?!"
"Still, keep the commandments."
"Well, I'm baffled."

You forget the Lord’s other commandments that were given in the Book of Mormon and many other ancient writings. You hang on the law of the tithe and demand that all pay it.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:40 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:39 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:27 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:24 pm

That the commandments are good? Guilty as charged, I guess.

And I guess that explains why you have the perceptions that you do.

You guys have such a baffling view of doctrine, it is truly astounding. I wish you well my friend. Keep paying your tithes to the LDS corp.

"Keep the commandments."
"But what if it's hard!?!"
"Still, keep the commandments."
"Well, I'm baffled."

You forget the Lord’s other commandments that were given in the Book of Mormon and many other ancient writings.

I certainly haven't.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:39 pm I found this in the TBM version of the NT:

“And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye tithed one of the least of these my brethren, ye have tithed it unto me.”

You really like to just make things up out of thin air don't you?

Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:42 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:39 pm I found this in the TBM version of the NT:

“And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye tithed one of the least of these my brethren, ye have tithed it unto me.”

You really like to just make things up out of thin air don't you?

I’m just parroting your rational.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:43 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:42 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:39 pm I found this in the TBM version of the NT:

“And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye tithed one of the least of these my brethren, ye have tithed it unto me.”

You really like to just make things up out of thin air don't you?

I’m just parroting your rational.

You're making things up again.

The banter has been fun. I’ll simply refer y’all back to Alma’s words from the Book of Mormon (Mosiah 18). You can justify your actions all you like. Have a great night.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:44 pm I’ll simply refer y’all back to Alma’s words from the Book of Mormon (Mosiah 18).

You mean the scripture that doesn't mention anything about tithing?

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:44 pm The banter has been fun. I’ll simply refer y’all back to Alma’s words from the Book of Mormon (Mosiah 18). You can justify your actions all you like. Have a great night.

Great teachings:

"and of him that had but little, but little should be required;"

Anyone who has little still has it give. It just needs to be little.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:29 pm

Church_of_the_Lamb wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:22 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:07 pm

Church_of_the_Lamb wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:48 pm Anyone using Malachi 3 to justify members getting blessed for paying tithing needs to go re-read from chapter 1. It is the priests of Israel getting chewed out for stealing the tithes for themselves. Will a man rob god? that is what the priests of the Israelites were doing...its also what is happening today in the modern church. Malachi condemns the modern church.

Actually, I think you better read it again. The Lord says that the WHOLE NATION is robbing him in tithes and offerings.

Actually, I think you better read it again.

I'm quite familiar with what it says. It says that the WHOLE NATION is robbing God in tithes and offerings.

so you keep quoting Malachi 3:9....but if you actually read it in context starting Malachi 2:1 you will see "O ye priests, this commandment is for you." Also if you look at Malachi 2:14 you can clearly see that the "Ye" ie you, that is used in Malachi 3:9 is still referring to the priests. I could go on but I won't. Malachi 3 isn't an island, and it has to be read with at least chapter 2 to get the full meaning and context.

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:39 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:27 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:24 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:22 pm
No wonder you have the perceptions that you do.

That the commandments are good? Guilty as charged, I guess.

And I guess that explains why you have the perceptions that you do.

You guys have such a baffling view of doctrine, it is truly astounding. I wish you well my friend. Keep paying your tithes to the LDS corp.

"Keep the commandments."
"But what if it's hard!?!"
"Still, keep the commandments."
"Well, I'm baffled."

No it's not about the difficulty level.

Like I pointed out before in those years in my life when the wallet didn't stretch far and I was feeling like old father Hubbard who went to the cupboard and it was bare. We lived off of potatoes and free old bread for at least 5 years before there was improvement. It funny remembering some of these things like all the beaters i drove. I guess my mana was finding cars for $400-600 bucks that would last for year or so each I drove cars that I couldn't drive on the freeway because they'd shake too much. We would drivre 45 mins to church on the old two lane highway instead of the freeway. But I digress ..

Anyhow your militant dogmatic views on accepting all of the policy changes on tithing leave no room for compassion or mercy.

I wonder what other things you would do in the name of being a "good" German, err Mormon, err global citizen. Hopefully you won't underdevelop other Christlike qualities as well.

Hopefully you weren't the type who also would cast down the maskless and vaxless in the name of "follow the prophet" over following Jesus.

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:47 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:44 pm The banter has been fun. I’ll simply refer y’all back to Alma’s words from the Book of Mormon (Mosiah 18). You can justify your actions all you like. Have a great night.

Great teachings:

"and of him that had but little, but little should be required;"

Anyone who has little still has it give. It just needs to be little.

Yes if they don't want to eat, be clothed or need to use transportation.

You seem to think that the only way to pay tithing is with Cesar's coin. The poor should be allowed to serve and pay in other ways.

See compassion and mercy provide a way without bleeding a stone. They also afford someone their dignity and self-respect.

Church_of_the_Lamb wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 12:27 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:29 pm

Church_of_the_Lamb wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:22 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:07 pm

Actually, I think you better read it again. The Lord says that the WHOLE NATION is robbing him in tithes and offerings.

Actually, I think you better read it again.

I'm quite familiar with what it says. It says that the WHOLE NATION is robbing God in tithes and offerings.

so you keep quoting Malachi 3:9....but if you actually read it in context starting Malachi 2:1 you will see "O ye priests, this commandment is for you." Also if you look at Malachi 2:14 you can clearly see that the "Ye" ie you, that is used in Malachi 3:9 is still referring to the priests. I could go on but I won't. Malachi 3 isn't an island, and it has to be read with at least chapter 2 to get the full meaning and context.

Thank you for this. We Mormons are so practiced at taking scriptures out of context, we've got it off to a fine art.
But it is clear that the Malachi tithing verses we love to beat people over the head with were addressed to those who received the tithes, and not to those who gave the tithes.
There is clearly a lesson there for the modern day church.