Your home for discussing politics, the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, and the principles of liberty.
https://ldsfreedomforum.com/
The church foundation is not for tithing.pho·to·syn·the·sis wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:28 pm There are different ways to pay tithing. If you are rich enough, you can receive special help from the Church on how to pay tithing with special accommodations and assistance.
https://philanthropies.churchofjesuschr ... foundation
Who says it's Satanic?Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:26 pmSwearing to slit your throat, tear out your heart, and slit your belly for not divulging info is Masonic, and Satanic.Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:24 pmSwearing by one's head in order to get murder and gain is Satanic, but that's not what is done in the temple. Not now, not ever.
So, I'll ask again. How do you know that God doesn't approve of the Nauvoo Temple endowment and that BY corrupted what was revealed by Joseph?
Because latter-day leaders tell us we should pay tithing even in our poverty. Modern leaders contradict former presidents of the church.Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:25 pmI have no idea what point you are imaging these quotes are making. No one's standing in the church is jeopardized by failing to pay tithing. We do believe people should look after the members of their own house first, then their neighbors. I have no idea where you think anyone would argue with either of the quotes you posted.Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:21 pm Maybe you guys can argue with this church leader:
“ I may be pardoned, perhaps, if I say here, for the benefit of any who do not know the facts, that the law of tithing is a voluntary law; that is, it imposes only a voluntary duty upon the people. No person’s standing as a member of the Church is jeopardized because he doesn’t pay his tithing…. I want to tell you that, we will be honest with you; we feel that it is the first duty of Latter-day Saints to take care of themselves, and of their poor; and then, if we can extend it to others…. but first look after the members of our own household.”
What was taught in the early church by BY was not godly. Even latter-day presidents condemned many of his teachings.Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:31 pmWho says it's Satanic?Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:26 pmSwearing to slit your throat, tear out your heart, and slit your belly for not divulging info is Masonic, and Satanic.Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:24 pmSwearing by one's head in order to get murder and gain is Satanic, but that's not what is done in the temple. Not now, not ever.
So, I'll ask again. How do you know that God doesn't approve of the Nauvoo Temple endowment and that BY corrupted what was revealed by Joseph?
Plus Joseph Smith taught that Masonry was a corrupted form of the endowment.
That quote certainly doesn't say what you're claiming. You're trying to make quotes support your position, when in fact they don't say anything of the sort.Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:33 pmBecause latter-day leaders tell us we should pay tithing even in our poverty. Modern leaders contradict former presidents of the church.Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:25 pmI have no idea what point you are imaging these quotes are making. No one's standing in the church is jeopardized by failing to pay tithing. We do believe people should look after the members of their own house first, then their neighbors. I have no idea where you think anyone would argue with either of the quotes you posted.Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:21 pm Maybe you guys can argue with this church leader:
“ I may be pardoned, perhaps, if I say here, for the benefit of any who do not know the facts, that the law of tithing is a voluntary law; that is, it imposes only a voluntary duty upon the people. No person’s standing as a member of the Church is jeopardized because he doesn’t pay his tithing…. I want to tell you that, we will be honest with you; we feel that it is the first duty of Latter-day Saints to take care of themselves, and of their poor; and then, if we can extend it to others…. but first look after the members of our own household.”
Can you gain “saving” ordinances if you don’t pay tithing?Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:37 pmThat quote certainly doesn't say what you're claiming. You're trying to make quotes support your position, when in fact they don't say anything of the sort.Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:33 pmBecause latter-day leaders tell us we should pay tithing even in our poverty. Modern leaders contradict former presidents of the church.Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:25 pmI have no idea what point you are imaging these quotes are making. No one's standing in the church is jeopardized by failing to pay tithing. We do believe people should look after the members of their own house first, then their neighbors. I have no idea where you think anyone would argue with either of the quotes you posted.Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:21 pm Maybe you guys can argue with this church leader:
“ I may be pardoned, perhaps, if I say here, for the benefit of any who do not know the facts, that the law of tithing is a voluntary law; that is, it imposes only a voluntary duty upon the people. No person’s standing as a member of the Church is jeopardized because he doesn’t pay his tithing…. I want to tell you that, we will be honest with you; we feel that it is the first duty of Latter-day Saints to take care of themselves, and of their poor; and then, if we can extend it to others…. but first look after the members of our own household.”
How does saying "your first duty is to your family" mean that you get to ignore the law of tithing of you want? How many commandments do we get to break under the guise of "having a duty to our family"? Is anything fair game as long as it makes money?
Please stop trying to dodge and move the goal posts and just answer the questions I posed.Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:34 pmWhat was taught in the early church by BY was not godly. Even latter-day presidents condemned many of his teachings.Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:31 pmWho says it's Satanic?Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:26 pmSwearing to slit your throat, tear out your heart, and slit your belly for not divulging info is Masonic, and Satanic.Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:24 pm
Swearing by one's head in order to get murder and gain is Satanic, but that's not what is done in the temple. Not now, not ever.
So, I'll ask again. How do you know that God doesn't approve of the Nauvoo Temple endowment and that BY corrupted what was revealed by Joseph?
Plus Joseph Smith taught that Masonry was a corrupted form of the endowment.
Nope. Same as what Joseph did.Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:39 pmCan you gain “saving” ordinances if you don’t pay tithing?Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:37 pmThat quote certainly doesn't say what you're claiming. You're trying to make quotes support your position, when in fact they don't say anything of the sort.Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:33 pmBecause latter-day leaders tell us we should pay tithing even in our poverty. Modern leaders contradict former presidents of the church.Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:25 pm
I have no idea what point you are imaging these quotes are making. No one's standing in the church is jeopardized by failing to pay tithing. We do believe people should look after the members of their own house first, then their neighbors. I have no idea where you think anyone would argue with either of the quotes you posted.
How does saying "your first duty is to your family" mean that you get to ignore the law of tithing of you want? How many commandments do we get to break under the guise of "having a duty to our family"? Is anything fair game as long as it makes money?
I know they are satanic. I said they are.Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:40 pmPlease stop trying to dodge and move the goal posts and just answer the questions I posed.Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:34 pmWhat was taught in the early church by BY was not godly. Even latter-day presidents condemned many of his teachings.Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:31 pmWho says it's Satanic?Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:26 pm
Swearing to slit your throat, tear out your heart, and slit your belly for not divulging info is Masonic, and Satanic.
Plus Joseph Smith taught that Masonry was a corrupted form of the endowment.
Who said that the penalty signs are Satanic?
What evidence do you have that BY corrupted the endowment from how it was revealed by Joseph?
And finally, Joseph Smith taught that that masonry was a corrupted form of the endowment, and yet you say that BY corrupted the endowment and made it Satanic by adding the masonic stuff. Please address this.
Yes, it is. It is defined as "gift", but it is used as a means for wealthier members to pay "tithing". It's legal mumbo jumbo, but It's smart business for both the "giver" and the "church". Wealthier members create a "foundation" to assist and provide incentives while making charitable donations. The Church offers assistance in creating such "foundations", if your gift is deemed a substantial benefit to the Church.Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:30 pmThe church foundation is not for tithing.pho·to·syn·the·sis wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:28 pm There are different ways to pay tithing. If you are rich enough, you can receive special help from the Church on how to pay tithing with special accommodations and assistance.
https://philanthropies.churchofjesuschr ... foundation
No, this is how the church gets more discretionary funds that can be spent outside the auspices of the tithing requirements, such as businesses and even salaries for GAs.pho·to·syn·the·sis wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:47 pmYes, it is. It is defined as "gift", but it is used as a means for wealthier members to pay "tithing". It's legal mumbo jumbo, but It's smart business for both the "giver" and the "church". Wealthier members create a "foundation" to assist and provide incentives while making charitable donations. The Church offers assistance in creating such "foundations", if your gift is deemed a substantial benefit to the Church.Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:30 pmThe church foundation is not for tithing.pho·to·syn·the·sis wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:28 pm There are different ways to pay tithing. If you are rich enough, you can receive special help from the Church on how to pay tithing with special accommodations and assistance.
https://philanthropies.churchofjesuschr ... foundation
Contact Us
For a detailed discussion of the services we provide you and your advisors, please contact us at 1-877-650-5377 or by email.
,
I had a Bishop call my husband and me in March about 7 years ago. He handed us our tithing paper showing what we had paid that year. He said he noticed a discrepancy in what we paid that year compared to previous years. I looked at the paper and noted that it was printed in November. We always paid in December too. He asked the ward clerk to print it out with the new date, which reflected our full contribution. He then said he was "glad that paper had been wrong because he was about to take our temple recommends". I was shocked. I walked out telling my husband that he would've gotten it over my dead body. Talk about unrighteous dominion.TheDuke wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 6:19 pm So, who on here has ever been denied a temple recommend for not paying tithing? Who knows anyone who has been denied a temple recommend for not paying tithing? Especially, for their own live work? Who has ever been challenged in tithing settlement about how they computed their tithing?
I'm guessing none at all.
Has anyone on here EVER run a diverse team of contributors? You set a bar that is quite vague, then work with each individual to get to the right place for each, but that is done privately. I have NEVER seen anyone turned away from the temple or church or even a mission for not having or being willing to pay their tithing. I know many, many people who have collected money from the church during hard times. I know no one that has been turned away, not one.
I'm really confused why all the fuss? You can go to church for 100 years, and if you never ask for a temple recommend, NO ONE will EVER ask about your tithes (or smoking, or WoW, or any other worthiness thing).
Now you want to go to the temple and as Reluctant says, you have to pay to play? But, if you're poor they'll just give you the recommend if you say you tried and couldn't do it or if you say anything other than "you hate the concept and refuse to pay because the leaders are Satanic", even then they may give you a recommend, hell I've answered many temple recommend questions in opposition and have never been turned down. And if you're not poor and can afford tithing, then you figure out how much to pay, no one will EVER challenge you, NEVER! If that bothers you, then you don't really deserve the promised blessings of exaltation, at least not in this eternal round. PERIOD.
The benefit (originally) of this thread seemed an honest discussion of how much and how to compute a fair tithing. I think this is a VERY good discussion, because of the discrepancies listed above and the high level guidance can make someone feel "guilty" that shouldn't. I know I did for a few years, but I worked it out with the Lord, he's happy, so I don't even care what my bishop or SP or RMN care. I want the Lord to be happy so I can get my reward, not money or fire insurance, just one more promise I made that I fulfilled. Everyone should do that same as suggested a few pages back.
But for this thread, I think folks should NOT feel compelled to feel anything like a 10% on gross is expected of the Lord, or of the church, it doesn't even make sense as it assumes a standard type of earning based on standard income. so, can we get back to helping folks that need to feel ok about tithing and what makes sense? Quit arguing about what the church does with it, none of our business (on this thread anyway). IMO
So it appears that you can't back up a single one of your charges.Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:43 pmI know they are satanic. I said they are.Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:40 pmPlease stop trying to dodge and move the goal posts and just answer the questions I posed.Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:34 pmWhat was taught in the early church by BY was not godly. Even latter-day presidents condemned many of his teachings.
Who said that the penalty signs are Satanic?
What evidence do you have that BY corrupted the endowment from how it was revealed by Joseph?
And finally, Joseph Smith taught that that masonry was a corrupted form of the endowment, and yet you say that BY corrupted the endowment and made it Satanic by adding the masonic stuff. Please address this.
Because BY was in cahoots w/ those who killed Joseph. Joseph wasn’t a polygamist.
Of course you don’t believe any of this and we diverge great in our opinions. We disagree. Nothing new here.
Yeah. Can you believe a prophet is telling people to keep the Lord's commandments, even when it's hard??? How absurd!Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:59 pm Maybe you TBMs agree with this statement. RMN sure did.
“When we're desperate to have more money, we eagerly follow the Lord's law of finances. Which is, of course, tithing.”
Actually, I think you better read it again. The Lord says that the WHOLE NATION is robbing him in tithes and offerings.Church_of_the_Lamb wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:48 pm Anyone using Malachi 3 to justify members getting blessed for paying tithing needs to go re-read from chapter 1. It is the priests of Israel getting chewed out for stealing the tithes for themselves. Will a man rob god? that is what the priests of the Israelites were doing...its also what is happening today in the modern church. Malachi condemns the modern church.
I don’t have to “prove” (back up) to you what I’ve come to know for myself. You believe much of what current church leaders teach, I don’t.Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:04 pmSo it appears that you can't back up a single one of your charges.Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:43 pmI know they are satanic. I said they are.Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:40 pmPlease stop trying to dodge and move the goal posts and just answer the questions I posed.Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:34 pm
What was taught in the early church by BY was not godly. Even latter-day presidents condemned many of his teachings.
Who said that the penalty signs are Satanic?
What evidence do you have that BY corrupted the endowment from how it was revealed by Joseph?
And finally, Joseph Smith taught that that masonry was a corrupted form of the endowment, and yet you say that BY corrupted the endowment and made it Satanic by adding the masonic stuff. Please address this.
Because BY was in cahoots w/ those who killed Joseph. Joseph wasn’t a polygamist.
Of course you don’t believe any of this and we diverge great in our opinions. We disagree. Nothing new here.
Sounds about right.
Were young children ever endowed?Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:45 pm BTW, ask any child to make a promise that they’ll kill themselves (or allow themselves to be killed) if they divulge information. We call that child abuse today. Pedophiles and abominable men do those types of things.
So you think paying tithing is intended for the acquisition of money?Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:05 pmYeah. Can you believe a prophet is telling people to keep the Lord's commandments, even when it's hard??? How absurd!Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:59 pm Maybe you TBMs agree with this statement. RMN sure did.
“When we're desperate to have more money, we eagerly follow the Lord's law of finances. Which is, of course, tithing.”
Eta: Remember that idiot widow of zeraphath who was desperate for food but gave it away to Elijah like a sucker? No prophet would ever ask her to give away the last of her food!
Seriously… you can’t make the correlation that regardless of who the person is, blood oaths are wrong? The first blood oath made was between Satan and Cain.Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:10 pmWere young children ever endowed?Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:45 pm BTW, ask any child to make a promise that they’ll kill themselves (or allow themselves to be killed) if they divulge information. We call that child abuse today. Pedophiles and abominable men do those types of things.
Nope.
BTW, the quote was from Wendy, all the while her hubby was sitting behind her. You guys have such a bizarre interpretation of tithing and caring for the poor.Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 10:05 pmYeah. Can you believe a prophet is telling people to keep the Lord's commandments, even when it's hard??? How absurd!Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 9:59 pm Maybe you TBMs agree with this statement. RMN sure did.
“When we're desperate to have more money, we eagerly follow the Lord's law of finances. Which is, of course, tithing.”
Eta: Remember that idiot widow of zeraphath who was desperate for food but gave it away to Elijah like a sucker? No prophet would ever ask her to give away the last of her food!