Newest and Best Tithing Discussion

[Robin Hood]

One more before I head out for the evening. The Lord's modest sanctuaries in action:

Not sure what I think about this.
I guess it makes sense to a certain extent, but feels odd.

[LDS Watchman]

They were all poor. The church was poor. They all gave willingly.

So because the church is no longer dirt poor and has money set aside, the Lord no longer expects the saints to sacrifice? The gospel has all of a sudden changed because the church is no longer in debt?

None of this crap the billion $ corp is pulling today, and convincing poor around the world that they need the blessings of giving a financial offering at the temple of Baal.

Wow. Now your actually comparing the sacred houses of the Lord to the temple of Baal?

Ever heard of blaspheme? God kind of doesn't like that.

[Robin Hood]

The two richest churches in the world, by a country mile, are the Roman Catholic Church and the LDS Church.
I have been to Salt Lake City/Temple Square and to Rome/Vatican. I found the comparison interesting. The Vatican wins hands down. The LDS just isn't in the same league.
I'm not talking about money or flaunting wealth. I'm not talking about buildings or commercial interests etc. It was something else, something that was really palpable.
One word: Class.

[TheDuke]

So, who on here has ever been denied a temple recommend for not paying tithing? Who knows anyone who has been denied a temple recommend for not paying tithing? Especially, for their own live work? Who has ever been challenged in tithing settlement about how they computed their tithing?

I'm guessing none at all.

Has anyone on here EVER run a diverse team of contributors? You set a bar that is quite vague, then work with each individual to get to the right place for each, but that is done privately. I have NEVER seen anyone turned away from the temple or church or even a mission for not having or being willing to pay their tithing. I know many, many people who have collected money from the church during hard times. I know no one that has been turned away, not one.

I'm really confused why all the fuss? You can go to church for 100 years, and if you never ask for a temple recommend, NO ONE will EVER ask about your tithes (or smoking, or WoW, or any other worthiness thing).

Now you want to go to the temple and as Reluctant says, you have to pay to play? But, if you're poor they'll just give you the recommend if you say you tried and couldn't do it or if you say anything other than "you hate the concept and refuse to pay because the leaders are Satanic", even then they may give you a recommend, hell I've answered many temple recommend questions in opposition and have never been turned down. And if you're not poor and can afford tithing, then you figure out how much to pay, no one will EVER challenge you, NEVER! If that bothers you, then you don't really deserve the promised blessings of exaltation, at least not in this eternal round. PERIOD.

The benefit (originally) of this thread seemed an honest discussion of how much and how to compute a fair tithing. I think this is a VERY good discussion, because of the discrepancies listed above and the high level guidance can make someone feel "guilty" that shouldn't. I know I did for a few years, but I worked it out with the Lord, he's happy, so I don't even care what my bishop or SP or RMN care. I want the Lord to be happy so I can get my reward, not money or fire insurance, just one more promise I made that I fulfilled. Everyone should do that same as suggested a few pages back.

But for this thread, I think folks should NOT feel compelled to feel anything like a 10% on gross is expected of the Lord, or of the church, it doesn't even make sense as it assumes a standard type of earning based on standard income. so, can we get back to helping folks that need to feel ok about tithing and what makes sense? Quit arguing about what the church does with it, none of our business (on this thread anyway). IMO

[Oldemandalton]

Pashaw! That's nothing, maybe 20 hours a week if that according to some gnat squinters. LOL

Subcomandante, you've been around more than I have lately. Do murmurers make up stuff to just complain about or is there a secret council on LDAFF who makes a list of gnats to murmur about?

Congratulations, Subcomandante. Looks like you're getting noticed as faithful enough to be in on the not-so-inside gnat joke. Though, the reason why Oldemandalton didn't PM something like this may indicate that you're being exploited to passively aggress rest of the forum. I hope, though, you've been truly chosen, or at least called... I hope not groomed.

LOL, I love it, Dusty. Thank you.

I was hoping you'd pick up on the joke in there and wouldn't think I was just being mean.

You must have a weird sense of humor like me.

We can't always take ourselves too serious.

[Oldemandalton]

So, who on here has ever been denied a temple recommend for not paying tithing? Who knows anyone who has been denied a temple recommend for not paying tithing? Especially, for their own live work? Who has ever been challenged in tithing settlement about how they computed their tithing?

I'm guessing none at all.

Has anyone on here EVER run a diverse team of contributors? You set a bar that is quite vague, then work with each individual to get to the right place for each, but that is done privately. I have NEVER seen anyone turned away from the temple or church or even a mission for not having or being willing to pay their tithing. I know many, many people who have collected money from the church during hard times. I know no one that has been turned away, not one.

I'm really confused why all the fuss? You can go to church for 100 years, and if you never ask for a temple recommend, NO ONE will EVER ask about your tithes (or smoking, or WoW, or any other worthiness thing).

Now you want to go to the temple and as Reluctant says, you have to pay to play? But, if you're poor they'll just give you the recommend if you say you tried and couldn't do it or if you say anything other than "you hate the concept and refuse to pay because the leaders are Satanic", even then they may give you a recommend, hell I've answered many temple recommend questions in opposition and have never been turned down. And if you're not poor and can afford tithing, then you figure out how much to pay, no one will EVER challenge you, NEVER! If that bothers you, then you don't really deserve the promised blessings of exaltation, at least not in this eternal round. PERIOD.

The benefit (originally) of this thread seemed an honest discussion of how much and how to compute a fair tithing. I think this is a VERY good discussion, because of the discrepancies listed above and the high level guidance can make someone feel "guilty" that shouldn't. I know I did for a few years, but I worked it out with the Lord, he's happy, so I don't even care what my bishop or SP or RMN care. I want the Lord to be happy so I can get my reward, not money or fire insurance, just one more promise I made that I fulfilled. Everyone should do that same as suggested a few pages back.

But for this thread, I think folks should NOT feel compelled to feel anything like a 10% on gross is expected of the Lord, or of the church, it doesn't even make sense as it assumes a standard type of earning based on standard income. so, can we get back to helping folks that need to feel ok about tithing and what makes sense? Quit arguing about what the church does with it, none of our business (on this thread anyway). IMO

Exactly, Duke. The only place you are asked about tithing is at tithing settlement, which is voluntary, and in the Temple interview. And then it is simple, "do you pay an honest tithe?" No one looks up your statement. Even if you are behind in tithing, the Bishop will only require you to begin paying tithing from then on out. You never have to pay back tithing.

[Reluctant Watchman]

They were all poor. The church was poor. They all gave willingly.

So because the church is no longer dirt poor and has money set aside, the Lord no longer expects the saints to sacrifice? The gospel has all of a sudden changed because the church is no longer in debt?

None of this crap the billion $ corp is pulling today, and convincing poor around the world that they need the blessings of giving a financial offering at the temple of Baal.

Wow. Now your actually comparing the sacred houses of the Lord to the temple of Baal?

Ever heard of blaspheme? God kind of doesn't like that.

My honest opinion of the temple: there is truth, and there is some awful twisting of truth, and even some corruption. Sure, some of that has been removed the past 100 years, but there’s a reason the Lord says what he does in D&C 112, and how the Lord’s servants blaspheme his name in the midst of his house.

I wish they (his “friends”) hadn’t killed Joseph before he could have taught the more correct doctrine of endowment and second comforter, second anointing, and calling and election.

[Reluctant Watchman]

The two richest churches in the world, by a country mile, are the Roman Catholic Church and the LDS Church.
I have been to Salt Lake City/Temple Square and to Rome/Vatican. I found the comparison interesting. The Vatican wins hands down. The LDS just isn't in the same league.
I'm not talking about money or flaunting wealth. I'm not talking about buildings or commercial interests etc. It was something else, something that was really palpable.
One word: Class.

They are in bed w/ each other. The recent Italy trip should have been clear as day. Joseph warned us of the Catholic Church, RMN is lockstep w/ them.

[Reluctant Watchman]

You never have to pay back tithing.

And you’ll never get a reimbursement either.

[Reluctant Watchman]

This quote is from LDS.org under “tithing”:

“Tithing means one-tenth. Those who give less do not really pay tithing; they are lesser contributors to the Latter-day cause of the Lord. Tithing means one-tenth of a person’s income, interest, or increase. The merchant should pay tithing upon the net income of his business, the farmer upon the net income of his farming operations; the wage earner or salaried man upon the wage or salary earned by him. Out of the remaining nine-tenths he pays his current expenses … etc. To deduct living costs … and similar expenses from the income and pay tithing upon the remainder does not conform to the Lord’s commandment. Under such a system most people would show nothing on which to pay tithing. There is really no place for quibbling on this point. Tithing should be given upon the basis of our full earned income. If the nature of a business requires special interpretation, the tithepayer should consult the father of his ward, the bishop.” (Evidences and Reconciliations, 2:86.)

You TBMs should not be tithing on your “increase” according to the church website.

[LDS Watchman]

You TBMs should not be tithing on your “increase” according to the church website.

Huh???

How did you get that conclusion from the article? It doesn't say that at all.

[Artaxerxes]

This quote is from LDS.org under “tithing”:

“Tithing means one-tenth. Those who give less do not really pay tithing; they are lesser contributors to the Latter-day cause of the Lord. Tithing means one-tenth of a person’s income, interest, or increase. The merchant should pay tithing upon the net income of his business, the farmer upon the net income of his farming operations; the wage earner or salaried man upon the wage or salary earned by him. Out of the remaining nine-tenths he pays his current expenses … etc. To deduct living costs … and similar expenses from the income and pay tithing upon the remainder does not conform to the Lord’s commandment. Under such a system most people would show nothing on which to pay tithing. There is really no place for quibbling on this point. Tithing should be given upon the basis of our full earned income. If the nature of a business requires special interpretation, the tithepayer should consult the father of his ward, the bishop.” (Evidences and Reconciliations, 2:86.)

You TBMs should not be tithing on your “increase” according to the church website.

The quote that specifically says we should be paying on our increase really means that we shouldn't?

[Reluctant Watchman]

This quote is from LDS.org under “tithing”:

“Tithing means one-tenth. Those who give less do not really pay tithing; they are lesser contributors to the Latter-day cause of the Lord. Tithing means one-tenth of a person’s income, interest, or increase. The merchant should pay tithing upon the net income of his business, the farmer upon the net income of his farming operations; the wage earner or salaried man upon the wage or salary earned by him. Out of the remaining nine-tenths he pays his current expenses … etc. To deduct living costs … and similar expenses from the income and pay tithing upon the remainder does not conform to the Lord’s commandment. Under such a system most people would show nothing on which to pay tithing. There is really no place for quibbling on this point. Tithing should be given upon the basis of our full earned income. If the nature of a business requires special interpretation, the tithepayer should consult the father of his ward, the bishop.” (Evidences and Reconciliations, 2:86.)

You TBMs should not be tithing on your “increase” according to the church website.

The quote that specifically says we should be paying on our increase really means that we shouldn't?

Read the underlined portion. “Increase”, according to John A. Widtsoe, is on your full income.

[LDS Watchman]

My honest opinion of the temple: there is truth, and there is some awful twisting of truth, and even some corruption. Sure, some of that has been removed the past 100 years, but there’s a reason the Lord says what he does in D&C 112, and how the Lord’s servants blaspheme his name in the midst of his house.

I wish they (his “friends”) hadn’t killed Joseph before he could have taught the more correct doctrine of endowment and second comforter, second anointing, and calling and election.

Not interested getting into with you about your "BY and the gang murderer Joseph" wild unsubstantiated conspiracy theory.

However, I am curious on what grounds you base your belief that Joseph didn't fully reveal these ordinances and that BY corrupted what he did reveal?

[Reluctant Watchman]

You TBMs should not be tithing on your “increase” according to the church website.

Huh???

How did you get that conclusion from the article? It doesn't say that at all.

Read it again, sloooowwwlllyyyy this time.

[Artaxerxes]

This quote is from LDS.org under “tithing”:

“Tithing means one-tenth. Those who give less do not really pay tithing; they are lesser contributors to the Latter-day cause of the Lord. Tithing means one-tenth of a person’s income, interest, or increase. The merchant should pay tithing upon the net income of his business, the farmer upon the net income of his farming operations; the wage earner or salaried man upon the wage or salary earned by him. Out of the remaining nine-tenths he pays his current expenses … etc. To deduct living costs … and similar expenses from the income and pay tithing upon the remainder does not conform to the Lord’s commandment. Under such a system most people would show nothing on which to pay tithing. There is really no place for quibbling on this point. Tithing should be given upon the basis of our full earned income. If the nature of a business requires special interpretation, the tithepayer should consult the father of his ward, the bishop.” (Evidences and Reconciliations, 2:86.)

You TBMs should not be tithing on your “increase” according to the church website.

The quote that specifically says we should be paying on our increase really means that we shouldn't?

Read the underlined portion. “Increase”, according to John A. Widtsoe, is on your full income.

Yes? And?

[Reluctant Watchman]

My honest opinion of the temple: there is truth, and there is some awful twisting of truth, and even some corruption. Sure, some of that has been removed the past 100 years, but there’s a reason the Lord says what he does in D&C 112, and how the Lord’s servants blaspheme his name in the midst of his house.

I wish they (his “friends”) hadn’t killed Joseph before he could have taught the more correct doctrine of endowment and second comforter, second anointing, and calling and election.

Not interested getting into with you about your "BY and the gang murderer Joseph" wild unsubstantiated conspiracy theory.

However, I am curious on what grounds you base your belief that Joseph didn't fully reveal these ordinances and that BY corrupted what he did reveal?

God didn’t condone Adam/God theory and blood oaths. Not to mention a whole hose of other problems with the current endowment.

[LDS Watchman]

You TBMs should not be tithing on your “increase” according to the church website.

Huh???

How did you get that conclusion from the article? It doesn't say that at all.

Read it again, sloooowwwlllyyyy this time.

Done.

Still have no idea what the heck you're talking about. It literally says to pay on your increase.

[LDS Watchman]

God didn’t condone Adam/God theory and blood oaths. Not to mention a whole hose of other problems with the current endowment.

And you know this how?

[Reluctant Watchman]

Maybe you guys can argue with this church leader:

“ I may be pardoned, perhaps, if I say here, for the benefit of any who do not know the facts, that the law of tithing is a voluntary law; that is, it imposes only a voluntary duty upon the people. No person’s standing as a member of the Church is jeopardized because he doesn’t pay his tithing…. I want to tell you that, we will be honest with you; we feel that it is the first duty of Latter-day Saints to take care of themselves, and of their poor; and then, if we can extend it to others…. but first look after the members of our own household.”

[Reluctant Watchman]

God didn’t condone Adam/God theory and blood oaths. Not to mention a whole hose of other problems with the current endowment.

And you know this how?

Because blood oaths are Satanic, that’s how.

[LDS Watchman]

Because blood oaths are Satanic, that’s how.

Swearing by one's head in order to get murder and gain is Satanic, but that's not what is done in the temple. Not now, not ever.

So, I'll ask again. How do you know that God doesn't approve of the Nauvoo Temple endowment and that BY corrupted what was revealed by Joseph?

[Artaxerxes]

Maybe you guys can argue with this church leader:

“ I may be pardoned, perhaps, if I say here, for the benefit of any who do not know the facts, that the law of tithing is a voluntary law; that is, it imposes only a voluntary duty upon the people. No person’s standing as a member of the Church is jeopardized because he doesn’t pay his tithing…. I want to tell you that, we will be honest with you; we feel that it is the first duty of Latter-day Saints to take care of themselves, and of their poor; and then, if we can extend it to others…. but first look after the members of our own household.”

I have no idea what point you are imaging these quotes are making. No one's standing in the church is jeopardized by failing to pay tithing. We do believe people should look after the members of their own house first, then their neighbors. I have no idea where you think anyone would argue with either of the quotes you posted.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Because blood oaths are Satanic, that’s how.

Swearing by one's head in order to get murder and gain is Satanic, but that's not what is done in the temple. Not now, not ever.

So, I'll ask again. How do you know that God doesn't approve of the Nauvoo Temple endowment and that BY corrupted what was revealed by Joseph?

Swearing to slit your throat, tear out your heart, and slit your belly for not divulging info is Masonic, and Satanic.

[TwochurchesOnly]

To you Art, I'm assuming not, since they have some "income." What you don't realize is this keep the poor in a perpetual cycle of poverty to the church.

False. The Church encourages self-reliance, to better oneself, and rise out of poverty. BYU Pathways was designed for a cheap way for members to rise out of poverty and to increase their position and income through education. I have seen family and ward members acquire better, well paying jobs through this and other programs of the church.

What the church teaches as self-reliance also omits (in that manual I might add) is that the Lord's way of caring for the people is for the right to care for the poor.

Self-reliance philosophy: “If you give a man a fish, he will be hungry tomorrow. If you teach a man to fish, he will be richer forever.” (An old Indian proverb) This is the idea behind BYU Pathways.

The Church takes care of it's poor. I have not seen one faithful tithe payer turned away.

If the church "takes care of its poor" -
then why are there still poor among us?