Newest and Best Tithing Discussion

[Reluctant Watchman]

Joseph asked the people to sacrifice to build a house of worship. This is a far cry from what the LDS org is doing now.

How so?

They were all poor. The church was poor. They all gave willingly. None of this crap the billion $ corp is pulling today, and convincing poor around the world that they need the blessings of giving a financial offering at the temple of Baal.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Do you honestly believe Christ would ask a person in poverty to pay money in order to enter the temple? (Since no TBM answered my question earlier)

Are the poor exempt from the commandments?

How much tithing is there on $0.00?

Do we make a covenant in the Temple to be willing to sacrifice all?

Do we make a covenant in the Temple to be willing to consecrate everything?

What will the murmurers do when the Law of Consecration is truly lived? We can't even keep the law of tithing without complaining!

You can argue w/ Alma in the afterlife.

The temple also had blood oaths, that's the last place I'd look for guidance on caring for the poor.

[Artaxerxes]

Joseph asked the people to sacrifice to build a house of worship. This is a far cry from what the LDS org is doing now.

How so?

They were all poor. The church was poor. They all gave willingly. None of this crap the billion $ corp is pulling today, and convincing poor around the world that they need the blessings of giving a financial offering at the temple of Baal.

So: Joseph asking poor people to sacrifice to build a temple = good. RMN asking poor people to sacrifice to build a temple = bad.

[Oldemandalton]

To you Art, I'm assuming not, since they have some "income." What you don't realize is this keep the poor in a perpetual cycle of poverty to the church.

False. The Church encourages self-reliance, to better oneself, and rise out of poverty. BYU Pathways was designed for a cheap way for members to rise out of poverty and to increase their position and income through education. I have seen family and ward members acquire better, well paying jobs through this and other programs of the church.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Joseph asked the people to sacrifice to build a house of worship. This is a far cry from what the LDS org is doing now.

How so?

They were all poor. The church was poor. They all gave willingly. None of this crap the billion $ corp is pulling today, and convincing poor around the world that they need the blessings of giving a financial offering at the temple of Baal.

So: Joseph asking poor people to sacrifice to build a temple = good. RMN asking poor people to sacrifice to build a temple = bad.

RMN isn't asking. You HAVE TO pay in order to cross the threshhold.

[LDS Watchman]

Nephi was speaking to the Catholic church only.

No, he wasn't just addressing the Catholic Church. Protestant churches had built up many fine sanctuaries, too.

But he most certainly was not talking about the temples he commanded the saints to build or the modest meeting houses they have built to worship him in.

[Reluctant Watchman]

To you Art, I'm assuming not, since they have some "income." What you don't realize is this keep the poor in a perpetual cycle of poverty to the church.

False. The Church encourages self-reliance, to better oneself, and rise out of poverty. BYU Pathways was designed for a cheap way for members to rise out of poverty and to increase their position and income through education. I have seen family and ward members acquire better, well paying jobs through this and other programs of the church.

What the church teaches as self-reliance also omits (in that manual I might add) is that the Lord's way of caring for the people is for the rich to care for the poor.

[Artaxerxes]

How so?

They were all poor. The church was poor. They all gave willingly. None of this crap the billion $ corp is pulling today, and convincing poor around the world that they need the blessings of giving a financial offering at the temple of Baal.

So: Joseph asking poor people to sacrifice to build a temple = good. RMN asking poor people to sacrifice to build a temple = bad.

RMN isn't asking. You HAVE TO pay in order to cross the threshhold.

And the early saints HAD to sacrifice to build their temple so they could cross the threshold.

[LDS Watchman]

How so?

They were all poor. The church was poor. They all gave willingly. None of this crap the billion $ corp is pulling today, and convincing poor around the world that they need the blessings of giving a financial offering at the temple of Baal.

So: Joseph asking poor people to sacrifice to build a temple = good. RMN asking poor people to sacrifice to build a temple = bad.

RMN isn't asking. You HAVE TO pay in order to cross the threshhold.

Joseph Smith literally said that he would guard the door to the Nauvoo Temple himself and only those who had paid their bonus would be permitted to enter.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Nephi was speaking to the Catholic church only.

No, he wasn't just addressing the Catholic Church. Protestant churches had built up many fine sanctuaries, too.

But he most certainly was not talking about the temples he commanded the saints to build or the modest meeting houses they have built to worship him in.

And most certainly not the LDS temples. Those are ok. You keep believing that anything pronounced from the lips of a church leader constitutes God's will. You've been hoodwinked my friend.

[Reluctant Watchman]

They were all poor. The church was poor. They all gave willingly. None of this crap the billion $ corp is pulling today, and convincing poor around the world that they need the blessings of giving a financial offering at the temple of Baal.

So: Joseph asking poor people to sacrifice to build a temple = good. RMN asking poor people to sacrifice to build a temple = bad.

RMN isn't asking. You HAVE TO pay in order to cross the threshhold.

And the early saints HAD to sacrifice to build their temple so they could cross the threshold.

Willing sacrifice. They chose to, they weren't compelled to.

[Reluctant Watchman]

They were all poor. The church was poor. They all gave willingly. None of this crap the billion $ corp is pulling today, and convincing poor around the world that they need the blessings of giving a financial offering at the temple of Baal.

So: Joseph asking poor people to sacrifice to build a temple = good. RMN asking poor people to sacrifice to build a temple = bad.

RMN isn't asking. You HAVE TO pay in order to cross the threshhold.

Joseph Smith literally said that he would guard the door to the Nauvoo Temple himself and only those who had paid their bonus would be permitted to enter.

I'll take that up with Joseph next time I meet him. I don't place him on a pedestal.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Well, this has been fun... but I gotta run. You guys have fun this evening.

[LDS Watchman]

And most certainly not the LDS temples. Those are ok.

Why would God condemn the buildings he commanded his people to build unto him?

[Christianlee]

Pay what you want.

[LDS Watchman]

I'll take that up with Joseph next time I meet him.

So what Joseph did in regards to requiring people to pay to enter the temple is different than what RMN does or not?

[Oldemandalton]

To you Art, I'm assuming not, since they have some "income." What you don't realize is this keep the poor in a perpetual cycle of poverty to the church.

False. The Church encourages self-reliance, to better oneself, and rise out of poverty. BYU Pathways was designed for a cheap way for members to rise out of poverty and to increase their position and income through education. I have seen family and ward members acquire better, well paying jobs through this and other programs of the church.

What the church teaches as self-reliance also omits (in that manual I might add) is that the Lord's way of caring for the people is for the right to care for the poor.

Self-reliance philosophy: “If you give a man a fish, he will be hungry tomorrow. If you teach a man to fish, he will be richer forever.” (An old Indian proverb) This is the idea behind BYU Pathways.

The Church takes care of it's poor. I have not seen one faithful tithe payer turned away.

[Dusty Wanderer]

If you think that's all that an apostle does you have another thing coming.

What else do they do?

Travel around the world as part of their ministerial responsibilities, plus all the costs associated with travel.
Oversee Church departments at home whenever they are at home (which is quite rare outside of July).
Preside over stake and area conferences.
Interview prospective stake presidents and counselors alongside 70s when they go to stake conferences. Interview prospective Area and General Seventies.
Prepare for and give General Conference talks once every six months.
Visit government officials around the world to talk about the Church's programs within the country.
Dedicate new lands for the preaching of the Gospel.
Attend (and sometimes officiate in) temple dedications and occasionally groundbreakings.
Minister unto Church members and non-members the world over in addition to their scheduled workdays.

Pashaw! That's nothing, maybe 20 hours a week if that according to some gnat squinters. LOL

Subcomandante, you've been around more than I have lately. Do murmurers make up stuff to just complain about or is there a secret council on LDAFF who makes a list of gnats to murmur about?

Congratulations, Subcomandante. Looks like you're getting noticed as faithful enough to be in on the not-so-inside gnat joke. Though, the reason why Oldemandalton didn't PM something like this may indicate that you're being exploited to passively aggress rest of the forum. I hope, though, you've been truly chosen, or at least called... I hope not groomed.

[Robin Hood]

Nephi was speaking to the Catholic church only.

No, he wasn't just addressing the Catholic Church. Protestant churches had built up many fine sanctuaries, too.

But he most certainly was not talking about the temples he commanded the saints to build or the modest meeting houses they have built to worship him in.

Our meetinghouses are not really that modest. If you go to Africa... maybe. Here in England they're pretty good. But when I went to Utah I was blown away. The chapels were on a different level. Nothing like that here.

[Artaxerxes]

So: Joseph asking poor people to sacrifice to build a temple = good. RMN asking poor people to sacrifice to build a temple = bad.

RMN isn't asking. You HAVE TO pay in order to cross the threshhold.

And the early saints HAD to sacrifice to build their temple so they could cross the threshold.

Willing sacrifice. They chose to, they weren't compelled to.

Joseph gave out temple recommends. Let's see what he required for it:

Shadrach Roundy is entitled to the privilege of the Baptismal Font having paid his tithing and over to October 12th. 1842

Nauvoo Novr. 24th. 1842

Joseph Smith

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ource-note

It was as required then as it is now.

[Reluctant Watchman]

One more before I head out for the evening. The Lord's modest sanctuaries in action:

[Oldemandalton]

What else do they do?

Travel around the world as part of their ministerial responsibilities, plus all the costs associated with travel.
Oversee Church departments at home whenever they are at home (which is quite rare outside of July).
Preside over stake and area conferences.
Interview prospective stake presidents and counselors alongside 70s when they go to stake conferences. Interview prospective Area and General Seventies.
Prepare for and give General Conference talks once every six months.
Visit government officials around the world to talk about the Church's programs within the country.
Dedicate new lands for the preaching of the Gospel.
Attend (and sometimes officiate in) temple dedications and occasionally groundbreakings.
Minister unto Church members and non-members the world over in addition to their scheduled workdays.

Pashaw! That's nothing, maybe 20 hours a week if that according to some gnat squinters. LOL

Subcomandante, you've been around more than I have lately. Do murmurers make up stuff to just complain about or is there a secret council on LDAFF who makes a list of gnats to murmur about?

Congratulations, Subcomandante. Looks like you're getting noticed as faithful enough to be in on the not-so-inside gnat joke. Though, the reason why Oldemandalton didn't PM something like this may indicate that you're being exploited to passively aggress rest of the forum. I hope, though, you've been truly chosen, or at least called... I hope not groomed.

LOL, I love it, Dusty. Thank you.

[Subcomandante]

If you think that's all that an apostle does you have another thing coming.

What else do they do?

Travel around the world as part of their ministerial responsibilities, plus all the costs associated with travel.
Oversee Church departments at home whenever they are at home (which is quite rare outside of July).
Preside over stake and area conferences.
Interview prospective stake presidents and counselors alongside 70s when they go to stake conferences. Interview prospective Area and General Seventies.
Prepare for and give General Conference talks once every six months.
Visit government officials around the world to talk about the Church's programs within the country.
Dedicate new lands for the preaching of the Gospel.
Attend (and sometimes officiate in) temple dedications and occasionally groundbreakings.
Minister unto Church members and non-members the world over in addition to their scheduled workdays.

They do a lot more than this, actually. They also oversee the missionary program, have to make a determination on temple cancellation request, excommunication reinstatement, the publication of all church materials both in print and online, the translation of these publications, and on and on.

They are extremely busy doing the Lord's work. Anyone who says they have a cushy job is either extremely naïve or full of it.

I understand they do all of that; I was just giving an example. I have a former A-70 in my ward. The A-70 was quite busy in his work as he was constantly having meetings and calls from bishops and stake presidents from his coordinating councils well into the night. The G-70s which he reported to in Mexico City on a monthly basis were even busier. The Q-12 busier still.

All I am seeing here is the same type of envy that political leftists have the world over. Which, on this board, is very ironic.

Not to mention that the people here would put undue restrictions on the Apostles due to the way of administering the Gospel 2000 years earlier would have NO CHANCE OF SUCCEEDING today, given the current geopolitics of the world and the rules and regulations that these countries have concerning religious worship. If one were to look at the intricacies of religious worship just in Mexico, much less 190 other countries where the Church has a presence, it would make their heads spin.

An example: In Mexico, a foreign religious leader, or any foreigner for that matter, is absolutely FORBIDDEN from commenting on matters that are strictly political in nature. They are NOT able to endorse political parties or candidates, nor take a consistent position with one political party over another. Doing so would result in the religion being fined locally, its leaders incarcerated for electoral crimes, and repeated violations would result in seizure of property and even prohibition of the religion within the country.

In Brazil, a person that wishes to be a missionary in the country must present documentation that the person is indoctrinated enough in that religion in order to be an emissary of that religion in the country. The ministerial certificate that is given to elders and sisters in the MTC does NOT suffice for that requirement. Simply saying "God called me to preach to the beautiful Brazilian people" is not enough. However, the seminary graduation certificate that is given to people who graduate from the LDS Seminary program DOES suffice. The reason for this is because for many years there have been fraudulent people over there disguised as missionaries of different faiths that have committed all sorts of fraud over the years.

By NO MEANS do they have a cushy job, I agree. They do very tough work and it is very draining. And though I do not like lawyers, I am happy that there is lawyer representation in the Twelve because they would be just the types of people that would understand these intricacies that NO ONE on this forum would understand.

[Oldemandalton]

One more before I head out for the evening. The Lord's modest sanctuaries in action:

Reluctant, did you count all of the hairs on your gnats right rear leg?

[Dusty Wanderer]

Travel around the world as part of their ministerial responsibilities, plus all the costs associated with travel.
Oversee Church departments at home whenever they are at home (which is quite rare outside of July).
Preside over stake and area conferences.
Interview prospective stake presidents and counselors alongside 70s when they go to stake conferences. Interview prospective Area and General Seventies.
Prepare for and give General Conference talks once every six months.
Visit government officials around the world to talk about the Church's programs within the country.
Dedicate new lands for the preaching of the Gospel.
Attend (and sometimes officiate in) temple dedications and occasionally groundbreakings.
Minister unto Church members and non-members the world over in addition to their scheduled workdays.

Pashaw! That's nothing, maybe 20 hours a week if that according to some gnat squinters. LOL

Subcomandante, you've been around more than I have lately. Do murmurers make up stuff to just complain about or is there a secret council on LDAFF who makes a list of gnats to murmur about?

Congratulations, Subcomandante. Looks like you're getting noticed as faithful enough to be in on the not-so-inside gnat joke. Though, the reason why Oldemandalton didn't PM something like this may indicate that you're being exploited to passively aggress rest of the forum. I hope, though, you've been truly chosen, or at least called... I hope not groomed.

LOL, I love it, Dusty. Thank you.

I was hoping you'd pick up on the joke in there and wouldn't think I was just being mean.