LDS Freedom Forum

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:16 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 3:35 pm

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 2:04 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 12:56 pm

Work!
Turning up at the odd stake conference and speaking for 20 minutes? Attending a meeting for a couple of hours once a week and attending general conference twice a year, and perhaps a temple dedication once in a while. Tough life.

If you think that's all that an apostle does you have another thing coming.

What else do they do?

Travel around the world as part of their ministerial responsibilities, plus all the costs associated with travel. The church pays these costs. They do not come out of the stipend.
Oversee Church departments at home whenever they are at home (which is quite rare outside of July).

Most of this is delegated. They just sign off on thi gs others have done.

Preside over stake and area conferences. Pretty straightfoward.
Interview prospective stake presidents and counselors alongside 70s when they go to stake conferences. This is usually done by a Seventy accompanied by an Area Seventy.Interview prospective Area and General Seventies. Correct. But not really a big deal though.
Prepare for and give General Conference talks once every six months. Only the FP speak every 6 months. Most GA's have their talks written for them.
Visit government officials around the world to talk about the Church's programs within the country. Rare. But they usually get a nice vacation in the country.
Dedicate new lands for the preaching of the Gospel. Tough job (sarc).
Attend (and sometimes officiate in) temple dedications and occasionally groundbreakings. Still not worth the stipend.
Minister unto Church members and non-members the world over in addition to their scheduled workdays. Hardly ever.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 12:56 pm

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:52 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 11:43 am
These are men of God, not corporate businessmen.
And most of them gave up nothing because their careers we over. These are old men.
Why do they need anything in their 70's 80's and 90's? They certainly wouldn't be pulling down salaries of any figures at that age. It's indefensible.

How many men in their 70's 80's and 90's still work 10-12 hour days? If they did, they would still be making 7 figure incomes. Most men their age would be retired and play golf or sitting around enjoying their retirement rather than sitting in meetings all day long or traveling around the world teaching and witnessing of Christ on every continent, clime, or region.

Work!
Turning up at the odd stake conference and speaking for 20 minutes? Attending a meeting for a couple of hours once a week and attending general conference twice a year, and perhaps a temple dedication once in a while. Tough life.

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:16 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 3:35 pm

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 2:04 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 12:56 pm

Work!
Turning up at the odd stake conference and speaking for 20 minutes? Attending a meeting for a couple of hours once a week and attending general conference twice a year, and perhaps a temple dedication once in a while. Tough life.

If you think that's all that an apostle does you have another thing coming.

What else do they do?

Travel around the world as part of their ministerial responsibilities, plus all the costs associated with travel.
Oversee Church departments at home whenever they are at home (which is quite rare outside of July).
Preside over stake and area conferences.
Interview prospective stake presidents and counselors alongside 70s when they go to stake conferences. Interview prospective Area and General Seventies.
Prepare for and give General Conference talks once every six months.
Visit government officials around the world to talk about the Church's programs within the country.
Dedicate new lands for the preaching of the Gospel.
Attend (and sometimes officiate in) temple dedications and occasionally groundbreakings.
Minister unto Church members and non-members the world over in addition to their scheduled workdays.

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:31 pm

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:16 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 3:35 pm

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 2:04 pm

If you think that's all that an apostle does you have another thing coming.

What else do they do?

Travel around the world as part of their ministerial responsibilities, plus all the costs associated with travel.
Oversee Church departments at home whenever they are at home (which is quite rare outside of July).
Preside over stake and area conferences.
Interview prospective stake presidents and counselors alongside 70s when they go to stake conferences. Interview prospective Area and General Seventies.
Prepare for and give General Conference talks once every six months.
Visit government officials around the world to talk about the Church's programs within the country.
Dedicate new lands for the preaching of the Gospel.
Attend (and sometimes officiate in) temple dedications and occasionally groundbreakings.
Minister unto Church members and non-members the world over in addition to their scheduled workdays.

Pashaw! That's nothing, maybe 20 hours a week if that according to some gnat squinters. LOL

Subcomandante, you've been around more than I have lately. Do murmurers make up stuff to just complain about or is there a secret council on LDAFF who makes a list of gnats to murmur about?

Narnia wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:37 pm For those who say the poor should not pay tithing, what you are really saying is that you don’t want the poor to have blessings from God even though you don't realize what you are really saying or you don't mean it that way. The poorer we are, the less we can afford not paying tithing.

Paying tithing is not about the money, it’s about the faith which is the purpose of this life. We come here to walk and learn by faith. It is also about sacrifice which topic seems hasn’t been taught for a while. “…..it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.” (D & C 64:23)

How do we know if it’s a commandment from God? Jesus taught in the New Testament that we know it’s a commandment from God by doing it and obeying it. Without faith to obey it, you will never experience what God means he will pour down his blessings from heaven. Many people testify that even though when they didn’t have enough money to pay the rent or other stuff, the miracle happened after they chose to pay tithing first. The Lord provides the way that they were able to pay their rent or other bills. The blessings are not limited to temporal, but spiritual blessings as well. All his commandments are meant to be spiritual.

How do our leaders use the tithing fund? It’s not my duty to be concerned about it. It is between them and God. After all, they report to God, not me. My duty is to pay it. I was taught to pay tithing on gross income. I have done it for 38 years. If we nickel and dime with the Lord, don’t you think he will nickel and dime his blessings with us? Why is it so difficult to pay one tenth back to Heavenly Father when we owed him our life?

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:40 pm

Narnia wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:37 pm For those who say the poor should not pay tithing, what you are really saying is that you don’t want the poor to have blessings from God even though you don't realize what you are really saying or you don't mean it that way. The poorer we are, the less we can afford not paying tithing.

Paying tithing is not about the money, it’s about the faith which is the purpose of this life. We come here to walk and learn by faith. It is also about sacrifice which topic seems hasn’t been taught for a while. “…..it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.” (D & C 64:23)

How do we know if it’s a commandment from God? Jesus taught in the New Testament that we know it’s a commandment from God by doing it and obeying it. Without faith to obey it, you will never experience what God means he will pour down his blessings from heaven. Many people testify that even though when they didn’t have enough money to pay the rent or other stuff, the miracle happened after they chose to pay tithing first. The Lord provides the way that they were able to pay their rent or other bills. The blessings are not limited to temporal, but spiritual blessings as well. All his commandments are meant to be spiritual.

How do our leaders use the tithing fund? It’s not my duty to be concerned about it. It is between them and God. After all, they report to God, not me. My duty is to pay it. I was taught to pay tithing on gross income. I have done it for 38 years. If we nickel and dime with the Lord, don’t you think he will nickel and dime his blessings with us? Why is it so difficult to pay one tenth back to Heavenly Father when we owed him our life?

You should talk with Alma when you see him next:

27 And again Alma commanded that the people of the church should impart of their substance, every one according to that which he had; if he have more abundantly he should impart more abundantly; and of him that had but little, but little should be required; and to him that had not should be given.

28 And thus they should impart of their substance of their own free will and good desires towards God, and to those priests that stood in need, yea, and to every needy, naked soul.

29 And this he said unto them, having been commanded of God; and they did walk uprightly before God, imparting to one another both temporally and spiritually according to their needs and their wants.

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:43 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:40 pm

Narnia wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:37 pm For those who say the poor should not pay tithing, what you are really saying is that you don’t want the poor to have blessings from God even though you don't realize what you are really saying or you don't mean it that way. The poorer we are, the less we can afford not paying tithing.

Paying tithing is not about the money, it’s about the faith which is the purpose of this life. We come here to walk and learn by faith. It is also about sacrifice which topic seems hasn’t been taught for a while. “…..it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.” (D & C 64:23)

How do we know if it’s a commandment from God? Jesus taught in the New Testament that we know it’s a commandment from God by doing it and obeying it. Without faith to obey it, you will never experience what God means he will pour down his blessings from heaven. Many people testify that even though when they didn’t have enough money to pay the rent or other stuff, the miracle happened after they chose to pay tithing first. The Lord provides the way that they were able to pay their rent or other bills. The blessings are not limited to temporal, but spiritual blessings as well. All his commandments are meant to be spiritual.

How do our leaders use the tithing fund? It’s not my duty to be concerned about it. It is between them and God. After all, they report to God, not me. My duty is to pay it. I was taught to pay tithing on gross income. I have done it for 38 years. If we nickel and dime with the Lord, don’t you think he will nickel and dime his blessings with us? Why is it so difficult to pay one tenth back to Heavenly Father when we owed him our life?

You should talk with Alma when you see him next:

27 And again Alma commanded that the people of the church should impart of their substance, every one according to that which he had; if he have more abundantly he should impart more abundantly; and of him that had but little, but little should be required; and to him that had not should be given.

28 And thus they should impart of their substance of their own free will and good desires towards God, and to those priests that stood in need, yea, and to every needy, naked soul.

29 And this he said unto them, having been commanded of God; and they did walk uprightly before God, imparting to one another both temporally and spiritually according to their needs and their wants.

Yes, if people have little income, they should give little, not nothing. If they have no income, then they should give nothing.

iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:37 pm
Actually most of us just wait around for you and Sub to provide us new material. Then it’s off to Open Mic night and we riff at it until the thread is 30 pages long, starting with one innocuous subject, then shifting to polygamy, then tithing, then clot shots, back to polygamy (because multiples, of course), on to the “great infallibles”, and then we finish off with slurs against Brigham and anyone who Paul H. Dunn us wrong.

Seriously speaking, it’s about as organized as a chorus of cats around here.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:34 pm Do you honestly believe Christ would ask a person in poverty to pay money in order to enter the temple? (Since no TBM answered my question earlier)

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:44 pm

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:43 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:40 pm

Narnia wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:37 pm For those who say the poor should not pay tithing, what you are really saying is that you don’t want the poor to have blessings from God even though you don't realize what you are really saying or you don't mean it that way. The poorer we are, the less we can afford not paying tithing.

Paying tithing is not about the money, it’s about the faith which is the purpose of this life. We come here to walk and learn by faith. It is also about sacrifice which topic seems hasn’t been taught for a while. “…..it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.” (D & C 64:23)

How do we know if it’s a commandment from God? Jesus taught in the New Testament that we know it’s a commandment from God by doing it and obeying it. Without faith to obey it, you will never experience what God means he will pour down his blessings from heaven. Many people testify that even though when they didn’t have enough money to pay the rent or other stuff, the miracle happened after they chose to pay tithing first. The Lord provides the way that they were able to pay their rent or other bills. The blessings are not limited to temporal, but spiritual blessings as well. All his commandments are meant to be spiritual.

How do our leaders use the tithing fund? It’s not my duty to be concerned about it. It is between them and God. After all, they report to God, not me. My duty is to pay it. I was taught to pay tithing on gross income. I have done it for 38 years. If we nickel and dime with the Lord, don’t you think he will nickel and dime his blessings with us? Why is it so difficult to pay one tenth back to Heavenly Father when we owed him our life?

You should talk with Alma when you see him next:

27 And again Alma commanded that the people of the church should impart of their substance, every one according to that which he had; if he have more abundantly he should impart more abundantly; and of him that had but little, but little should be required; and to him that had not should be given.

28 And thus they should impart of their substance of their own free will and good desires towards God, and to those priests that stood in need, yea, and to every needy, naked soul.

29 And this he said unto them, having been commanded of God; and they did walk uprightly before God, imparting to one another both temporally and spiritually according to their needs and their wants.

Yes, if people have little income, they should give little, not nothing. If they have no income, then they should give nothing.

So does not being able to pay rent or put food on the table put a person in the "have nothing" category?

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:34 pm Do you honestly believe Christ would ask a person in poverty to pay money in order to enter the temple? (Since no TBM answered my question earlier)

Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:48 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:34 pm Do you honestly believe Christ would ask a person in poverty to pay money in order to enter the temple? (Since no TBM answered my question earlier)

Well he asked people in poverty to leave everything behind, including their wives and children without any support, to go on missions. So, yes I think Christ expects those in poverity to pay an honest tithe and exercise faith in him and his promise to open the windows of heaven and pour out rich blessings upon them.

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:29 pm
Didn't Jesus Christ direct the servants to build the watchtower with tithing money INSTEAD of investing it?

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:50 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:34 pm Do you honestly believe Christ would ask a person in poverty to pay money in order to enter the temple? (Since no TBM answered my question earlier)

Yes! He expressly did this in Kirkland, in Missouri, and in Nauvoo.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:50 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:48 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:34 pm Do you honestly believe Christ would ask a person in poverty to pay money in order to enter the temple? (Since no TBM answered my question earlier)

Well he asked people in poverty to leave everything behind, including their wives and children without any support, to go on missions. So, yes I think Christ expects those in poverity to pay an honest tithe and exercise faith in him and his promise to open the windows of heaven and pour out rich blessings upon them.

In the end, he asks us to give our all, yet that still doesn't exclude the condemnation of prophets like Nephi toward church leaders who build up their fine sanctuaries.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:51 pm Joseph asked the people to sacrifice to build a house of worship. This is a far cry from what the LDS org is doing now.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:34 pm Do you honestly believe Christ would ask a person in poverty to pay money in order to enter the temple? (Since no TBM answered my question earlier)

Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:55 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:50 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:48 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:34 pm Do you honestly believe Christ would ask a person in poverty to pay money in order to enter the temple? (Since no TBM answered my question earlier)

Well he asked people in poverty to leave everything behind, including their wives and children without any support, to go on missions. So, yes I think Christ expects those in poverity to pay an honest tithe and exercise faith in him and his promise to open the windows of heaven and pour out rich blessings upon them.

In the end, he asks us to give our all, yet that still doesn't exclude the condemnation of prophets like Nephi toward church leaders who build up their fine sanctuaries.

I mean, it's literally in the scriptures that we are to build temples to God and that they should be as fine as we can make them. Our meeting houses are quite modest in comparison to those of other churches.

So, I don't think these are the fine sanctuaries that the Book of Mormon condemns.

As you said, the Lord expects us to give him our all and exercise complete faith in him. Why can't this include the poor paying a small amount of tithing, that is a big sacrifice and act of faith for them?

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:16 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 3:35 pm

Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 2:04 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 12:56 pm

Work!
Turning up at the odd stake conference and speaking for 20 minutes? Attending a meeting for a couple of hours once a week and attending general conference twice a year, and perhaps a temple dedication once in a while. Tough life.

If you think that's all that an apostle does you have another thing coming.

What else do they do?

Travel around the world as part of their ministerial responsibilities, plus all the costs associated with travel.
Oversee Church departments at home whenever they are at home (which is quite rare outside of July).
Preside over stake and area conferences.
Interview prospective stake presidents and counselors alongside 70s when they go to stake conferences. Interview prospective Area and General Seventies.
Prepare for and give General Conference talks once every six months.
Visit government officials around the world to talk about the Church's programs within the country.
Dedicate new lands for the preaching of the Gospel.
Attend (and sometimes officiate in) temple dedications and occasionally groundbreakings.
Minister unto Church members and non-members the world over in addition to their scheduled workdays.

Narnia wrote: ↑April 11th, 2022, 4:37 pm For those who say the poor should not pay tithing, what you are really saying is that you don’t want the poor to have blessings from God even though you don't realize what you are really saying or you don't mean it that way. The poorer we are, the less we can afford not paying tithing.

Paying tithing is not about the money, it’s about the faith which is the purpose of this life. We come here to walk and learn by faith. It is also about sacrifice which topic seems hasn’t been taught for a while. “…..it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.” (D & C 64:23)

How do we know if it’s a commandment from God? Jesus taught in the New Testament that we know it’s a commandment from God by doing it and obeying it. Without faith to obey it, you will never experience what God means he will pour down his blessings from heaven. Many people testify that even though when they didn’t have enough money to pay the rent or other stuff, the miracle happened after they chose to pay tithing first. The Lord provides the way that they were able to pay their rent or other bills. The blessings are not limited to temporal, but spiritual blessings as well. All his commandments are meant to be spiritual.

How do our leaders use the tithing fund? It’s not my duty to be concerned about it. It is between them and God. After all, they report to God, not me. My duty is to pay it. I was taught to pay tithing on gross income. I have done it for 38 years. If we nickel and dime with the Lord, don’t you think he will nickel and dime his blessings with us? Why is it so difficult to pay one tenth back to Heavenly Father when we owed him our life?