LDS Freedom Forum

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 7th, 2022, 2:17 pm

PaulRevereLDS wrote: ↑April 7th, 2022, 2:11 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑April 7th, 2022, 2:09 pm Wow, PR has some baffling rationale going on.

Yes, I can see why false dichotomies are attractive to individuals that don't take much time to study up on logical fallacies and other reasoning errors, who don't take time to think through what they are actually saying, but who follow a certain crowd which has established a certain groupthink, and has its own lemming-esque following.

Don't worry, the prophet won't lead you astray.

Yes, though you said it in a sarcastic fashion, he certainly will not.

iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 7th, 2022, 2:18 pm Paul, if this is old turf for you, may I suggest the “Foe” button? I use it occasionally myself, and find it great for focusing my attention where it needs to be. Petty distractions and arguments are probably not what you’re looking for, but neither is a gated garden. You can find wholesome conversation that uplifts if you find your own way to nourish it.

Otherwise, mute the noise. Bless, forgive, and move on.

nice suggestion. Thank you.

PaulRevereLDS wrote: ↑April 7th, 2022, 2:18 pm Yes, though you said it in a sarcastic fashion, he certainly will not.

What sarcasm? These men are called of God, they speak for him. They will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever lead you astray. You can take that to the Celestial piggy bank.

Fred wrote: ↑April 6th, 2022, 7:08 pm I suggest that you take advantage of the opportunity in front of your face. Being on the right side of things is a big deal. I mean the same side as Jesus. Or maybe you don't like your family and do not want to be with them after you croak.

I won't take personally some of what you said.

But you have no idea who you are talking to. Just because I have "first principles," as one person calls it on this thread, in common with TBMs, I am one of the most nuanced and careful thinkers you have ever encountered or will. I'm one of the most well read people on the Internet as I see it, and have engaged with the most vile Anti-Mormons on the Mormon Discussion board and sparred toe to toe with the most arrogant Apologists that exist in this Church, for a very very long time. I just choose not to go the route of contention anymore. I have presented at Sunstone, and I have been interviewed on podcasts, and am not stupid, and while I am not famous, I am not an unknown on the Bloggernacle and other realms. I know the doctrine inside and out, more profoundly than most. My productions are not entirely unknown, although they are certainly not as famous as Rod Meldrum's productions.

I am not an idiot, sir, notwithstanding you disagree with me. You ought to know a little bit about who you are speaking to before you speak, just in case you were wondering. While I choose not to directly identify myself, I will at least reveal a little of my resume so you know I am not an idiot.

Stay or go.
Post or don’t post.
Argue or don’t argue.
Be offended or let it go.
Accuse others or have humility.
Simple decisions.

I too don’t feel it is that useful on this forum for a few to respond to every thread with LDS leaders being Sstanic I mean every every topic. I proposed a sub forum that just reduced HATE not negative just HaTe that keeps showing up. Imo

If the kettle is black.....

PaulRevereLDS wrote: ↑April 7th, 2022, 1:07 pm

The Creator wrote: ↑April 6th, 2022, 4:51 pm

PaulRevereLDS wrote: ↑April 6th, 2022, 3:59 pm I used to be on here a long time ago. ... This place has turned "dark," so to speak.... become more and more anti-Brethren and anti-"Brethrenite," ... where we can post unmolested by evil speaking of the Lord's anointed and continual anti-Brethren drivel...
I think the time has finally come that we need our own "space," unmolested by this kind of stuff.

Mostly I would just re-state what iWriteStuff already said. Additionally..

You think this forum has turned "dark", there are other places you can go like r/latterdaysaints/ (reddit).

You say LDSFF "has become more and more anti-Brethren and anti-'Brethrenite'".. I wouldn't call it "anti" but what you are observing is a result of people valuing truth and correct principles, and so their reaction to the actions of the "brethren" is just a natural result, especially over the past couple of years, as the Church has merged more and more with Babylon. You don't have to believe or acknowledge that but it is true. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yes, "the majority here are Joseph Smith/Book of Mormon believers" and many are recognizing the Church has strayed far from those roots.

I reject your interpretation of "evil speaking of the Lord's anointed". Speaking truth is not 'evil speaking'.

I wouldn't want to spend my time catering to these requests.

Thanks for that. Now I know where this has gone and where you stand. I see that those like me have no future here. You should remove "LDS" then from the name of your forum, if you aren't going to cater to and make space for those not of your mindset, who have stuck with the brethren.
Apostate is subjective, because from the Church's perspective, people that don't stick with the Brethren are those that are astray. That's the primary definition of apostate, especially from the point of view of which way the established authority is taking things.
You say you speak the truth, and that isn't evil speaking? What if your "truth" takes people away from the truth and goes beyond the mark, in the sense that what the perception of truth was back in the day was only an approximation, and now things are going closer to the truth than it was before? What if changes are made in the Church for reasons you don't comprehend? What if they are ways that the Church needs to navigate for temporary purposes that the Lord has, and then the time will come later for a return to older principles and methods? What then becomes of your "truth" when you didn't stick with the programme, when the Lord had a reason for the navigation in a certain direction that you disagree with. In other words, it doesn't matter what you personally believe. You ought to stick with the programme and allow the Church to go the direction it needs to go to navigate the ocean. You don't see the dangers that the prophets and seers and revelators see. If you did, you would go the same direction they go, according to the timing they choose to go in that direction. In other words, you ought to let the institution do what it has to do for its own sake regardless of what you personally believe, and you hadn't ought to find fault that the direction it had to go was based on a particular necessity that you don't fathom, maybe even only a temporary one, where maybe it will go back to something else later.
For you to stand your ground when the Church has gone another direction is exactly what happens when everyone thinks they know better than the brethren. That's what happened with every other restorationist schism in history. You've heard it all before. Why should I say it again?

So, while the definition of apostate is subjective, there is only one definition of apostate that is the official one. that's the only one that matters, both for personal salvation, as well as having good standing with established authority.

Interesting, you say to remove "LDS" from that name, but your desire is to remove the "FREEDOM" from the forum

PaulRevereLDS wrote: ↑April 7th, 2022, 2:28 pm

Fred wrote: ↑April 6th, 2022, 7:08 pm I suggest that you take advantage of the opportunity in front of your face. Being on the right side of things is a big deal. I mean the same side as Jesus. Or maybe you don't like your family and do not want to be with them after you croak.

I won't take personally some of what you said.

But you have no idea who you are talking to. Just because I have "first principles," as one person calls it on this thread, in common with TBMs, I am one of the most nuanced and careful thinkers you have ever encountered or will. I'm one of the most well read people on the Internet as I see it, and have engaged with the most vile Anti-Mormons on the Mormon Discussion board and sparred toe to toe with the most arrogant Apologists that exist in this Church, for a very very long time. I just choose not to go the route of contention anymore. I have presented at Sunstone, and I have been interviewed on podcasts, and am not stupid, and while I am not famous, I am not an unknown on the Bloggernacle and other realms. I know the doctrine inside and out, more profoundly than most. My productions are not entirely unknown, although they are certainly not as famous as Rod Meldrum's productions.

I am not an idiot, sir, notwithstanding you disagree with me. You ought to know a little bit about who you are speaking to before you speak, just in case you were wondering. While I choose not to directly identify myself, I will at least reveal a little of my resume so you know I am not an idiot.

What doth thou believe and/or know about the Davidic Servant

PaulRevereLDS wrote: ↑April 7th, 2022, 2:28 pm

Fred wrote: ↑April 6th, 2022, 7:08 pm I suggest that you take advantage of the opportunity in front of your face. Being on the right side of things is a big deal. I mean the same side as Jesus. Or maybe you don't like your family and do not want to be with them after you croak.

I won't take personally some of what you said.

But you have no idea who you are talking to. Just because I have "first principles," as one person calls it on this thread, in common with TBMs, I am one of the most nuanced and careful thinkers you have ever encountered or will. I'm one of the most well read people on the Internet as I see it, and have engaged with the most vile Anti-Mormons on the Mormon Discussion board and sparred toe to toe with the most arrogant Apologists that exist in this Church, for a very very long time. I just choose not to go the route of contention anymore. I have presented at Sunstone, and I have been interviewed on podcasts, and am not stupid, and while I am not famous, I am not an unknown on the Bloggernacle and other realms. I know the doctrine inside and out, more profoundly than most. My productions are not entirely unknown, although they are certainly not as famous as Rod Meldrum's productions.

I am not an idiot, sir, notwithstanding you disagree with me. You ought to know a little bit about who you are speaking to before you speak, just in case you were wondering. While I choose not to directly identify myself, I will at least reveal a little of my resume so you know I am not an idiot.

Sounds like Ed Goble.

ransomme wrote: ↑April 7th, 2022, 2:40 pm ...but your desire is to remove the "FREEDOM" from the forum

Funny how that works. Kind of like the church and medical autonomy. If there was one institution on the planet that condemned the mandates it should have been god-fearing church leaders.

I love reading all the stories of Jesus and his disciples avoiding anyone and anything disagreeable to them. The conviction and strength they gained from sitting in their echo chambers. It's inspiring.

BeNotDeceived wrote: ↑April 7th, 2022, 2:50 pm

PaulRevereLDS wrote: ↑April 7th, 2022, 2:28 pm

Fred wrote: ↑April 6th, 2022, 7:08 pm I suggest that you take advantage of the opportunity in front of your face. Being on the right side of things is a big deal. I mean the same side as Jesus. Or maybe you don't like your family and do not want to be with them after you croak.

I won't take personally some of what you said.

But you have no idea who you are talking to. Just because I have "first principles," as one person calls it on this thread, in common with TBMs, I am one of the most nuanced and careful thinkers you have ever encountered or will. I'm one of the most well read people on the Internet as I see it, and have engaged with the most vile Anti-Mormons on the Mormon Discussion board and sparred toe to toe with the most arrogant Apologists that exist in this Church, for a very very long time. I just choose not to go the route of contention anymore. I have presented at Sunstone, and I have been interviewed on podcasts, and am not stupid, and while I am not famous, I am not an unknown on the Bloggernacle and other realms. I know the doctrine inside and out, more profoundly than most. My productions are not entirely unknown, although they are certainly not as famous as Rod Meldrum's productions.

I am not an idiot, sir, notwithstanding you disagree with me. You ought to know a little bit about who you are speaking to before you speak, just in case you were wondering. While I choose not to directly identify myself, I will at least reveal a little of my resume so you know I am not an idiot.

What doth thou believe and/or know about the Davidic Servant

You are hysterical, you seriously have me laughing so hard over here….

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 7th, 2022, 2:54 pm

PaulRevereLDS wrote: ↑April 7th, 2022, 2:28 pm

Fred wrote: ↑April 6th, 2022, 7:08 pm I suggest that you take advantage of the opportunity in front of your face. Being on the right side of things is a big deal. I mean the same side as Jesus. Or maybe you don't like your family and do not want to be with them after you croak.

I won't take personally some of what you said.

But you have no idea who you are talking to. Just because I have "first principles," as one person calls it on this thread, in common with TBMs, I am one of the most nuanced and careful thinkers you have ever encountered or will. I'm one of the most well read people on the Internet as I see it, and have engaged with the most vile Anti-Mormons on the Mormon Discussion board and sparred toe to toe with the most arrogant Apologists that exist in this Church, for a very very long time. I just choose not to go the route of contention anymore. I have presented at Sunstone, and I have been interviewed on podcasts, and am not stupid, and while I am not famous, I am not an unknown on the Bloggernacle and other realms. I know the doctrine inside and out, more profoundly than most. My productions are not entirely unknown, although they are certainly not as famous as Rod Meldrum's productions.

I am not an idiot, sir, notwithstanding you disagree with me. You ought to know a little bit about who you are speaking to before you speak, just in case you were wondering. While I choose not to directly identify myself, I will at least reveal a little of my resume so you know I am not an idiot.

Sounds like Ed Goble.

Presumptuous indeed. That guy must be known enough for you to jump at that to try to make an identification.

Mamabear wrote: ↑April 7th, 2022, 3:01 pm You are hysterical, you seriously have me laughing so hard over here….

Is that so? Happy to be part of the amusement for your afternoon.

Even if line takes the line that the SLC leadership is correct on everything, we have to contend with the fact that there is a big, ugly, ungodly force running this world and trying to pull it altogether.

BeNotDeceived wrote: ↑April 7th, 2022, 2:50 pm What doth thou believe and/or know about the Davidic Servant

I guess thats a good subject for a separate thread on what some TBMs believe about the Davidic Servant.

I'll tell you what I don't believe. I don't believe the Davidic Servant will arise outside of established hierarchy.

And maybe here's a clue. David Whitmer said:

When will the temple be built in Independence?

Answer: Right after the great tribulation is over

Question: What do you mean by that?

Answer: A civil war more bloody and cruel than the rebellion. It will be the smashing up of this nation, about which time the second great work has to be done, a work like Joseph did, and the translation of the sealed plates and peace all over.

Now, as a TBM point of view would have it, can such a thing be done without being a Prophet, Seer and Revelator in the proper line of authority from Brigham Young, and that continues through RMN? Will the Davidic Servant be anything less than this? He will be a successor to Russell M. Nelson is what he will be, and he will be President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints at the time. And he will have a gift of seership of a degree that no seer has had since the time of Joseph Smith, because none of the ones since Joseph Smith have had the need for that kind of seership gift to produce new ancient scripture. And people with certain built-in spiritual gifts arise when they are needed, and no sooner.

That is part of the fallacy about finding fault with current prophets who may not personally have a built-in gift of seership in their soul by descent or by spiritual heritage, but who are seers by calling. That's like expecting that every Bishop that is ever called is equal in spirituality, which is simply not the case.

Suffice it to say that a man will become President of the Church at the time of the Building of the New Jerusalem who will have the same kind of innate gift of the spirit of seership and to the same degree that Joseph Smith had, and not just by virtue of calling.

Mamabear wrote: ↑April 7th, 2022, 2:33 pm Stay or go.
Post or don’t post.
Argue or don’t argue.
Be offended or let it go.
Accuse others or have humility.
Simple decisions.

agree

PaulRevereLDS wrote: ↑April 7th, 2022, 2:28 pm

Fred wrote: ↑April 6th, 2022, 7:08 pm I suggest that you take advantage of the opportunity in front of your face. Being on the right side of things is a big deal. I mean the same side as Jesus. Or maybe you don't like your family and do not want to be with them after you croak.

I won't take personally some of what you said.

But you have no idea who you are talking to. Just because I have "first principles," as one person calls it on this thread, in common with TBMs, I am one of the most nuanced and careful thinkers you have ever encountered or will. I'm one of the most well read people on the Internet as I see it, and have engaged with the most vile Anti-Mormons on the Mormon Discussion board and sparred toe to toe with the most arrogant Apologists that exist in this Church, for a very very long time. I just choose not to go the route of contention anymore. I have presented at Sunstone, and I have been interviewed on podcasts, and am not stupid, and while I am not famous, I am not an unknown on the Bloggernacle and other realms. I know the doctrine inside and out, more profoundly than most. My productions are not entirely unknown, although they are certainly not as famous as Rod Meldrum's productions.

I am not an idiot, sir, notwithstanding you disagree with me. You ought to know a little bit about who you are speaking to before you speak, just in case you were wondering. While I choose not to directly identify myself, I will at least reveal a little of my resume so you know I am not an idiot.

engagement, disagreement and discussion do not have to lead to contention...just saying

PaulRevereLDS wrote: ↑April 7th, 2022, 3:38 pm

Mamabear wrote: ↑April 7th, 2022, 3:01 pm You are hysterical, you seriously have me laughing so hard over here….

Is that so? Happy to be part of the amusement for your afternoon.

Hmmmm. Not surprised at all that you’re offended.
Don’t flatter yourself. I laughed at him not you because his question was worded funny.
But carry on in being offended.

Niemand wrote: ↑April 7th, 2022, 3:51 pm Even if line takes the line that the SLC leadership is correct on everything, we have to contend with the fact that there is a big, ugly, ungodly force running this world and trying to pull it altogether.

Stop spreading baseless conspiracy theories.

Mamabear wrote: ↑April 7th, 2022, 4:02 pm Hmmmm. Not surprised at all that you’re offended.
Don’t flatter yourself. I laughed at him not you because his question was worded funny.
But carry on in being offended.

I don't recall being offended, only observing that some people may think what I say to be amusing. It seemed that you were saying that. If you weren't, well, ok.

Sirius wrote: ↑April 7th, 2022, 2:58 pm I love reading all the stories of Jesus and his disciples avoiding anyone and anything disagreeable to them. The conviction and strength they gained from sitting in their echo chambers. It's inspiring.

I'd much rather be in an echo chamber than be constantly verbally assaulted, so that I can rub shoulders with people that think the same as me for once, and also have the option to associate now and again with people that I don't agree with, but to have the refuge to get away from it all. A refuge is really not that much to ask for. Its like having an online celestial room or something.

PaulRevereLDS wrote: ↑April 7th, 2022, 4:12 pm

Sirius wrote: ↑April 7th, 2022, 2:58 pm I love reading all the stories of Jesus and his disciples avoiding anyone and anything disagreeable to them. The conviction and strength they gained from sitting in their echo chambers. It's inspiring.

I'd much rather be in an echo chamber than be constantly verbally assaulted, so that I can rub shoulders with people that think the same as me for once, and also have the option to associate now and again with people that I don't agree with, but to have the refuge to get away from it all. A refuge is really not that much to ask for. Its like having an online celestial room or something.

I don't doubt that. Good luck to you.

PaulRevereLDS wrote: ↑April 7th, 2022, 3:53 pm

BeNotDeceived wrote: ↑April 7th, 2022, 2:50 pm What doth thou believe and/or know about the Davidic Servant

I guess thats a good subject for a separate thread on what some TBMs believe about the Davidic Servant.

I'll tell you what I don't believe. I don't believe the Davidic Servant will arise outside of established hierarchy.

And maybe here's a clue. David Whitmer said:

When will the temple be built in Independence?

Answer: Right after the great tribulation is over

Question: What do you mean by that?

Answer: A civil war more bloody and cruel than the rebellion. It will be the smashing up of this nation, about which time the second great work has to be done, a work like Joseph did, and the translation of the sealed plates and peace all over.

Now, as a TBM point of view would have it, can such a thing be done without being a Prophet, Seer and Revelator in the proper line of authority from Brigham Young, and that continues through RMN? Will the Davidic Servant be anything less than this? He will be a successor to Russell M. Nelson is what he will be, and he will be President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints at the time. And he will have a gift of seership of a degree that no seer has had since the time of Joseph Smith, because none of the ones since Joseph Smith have had the need for that kind of seership gift to produce new ancient scripture. And people with certain built-in spiritual gifts arise when they are needed, and no sooner.

That is part of the fallacy about finding fault with current prophets who may not personally have a built-in gift of seership in their soul by descent or by spiritual heritage, but who are seers by calling. That's like expecting that every Bishop that is ever called is equal in spirituality, which is simply not the case.

Suffice it to say that a man will become President of the Church at the time of the Building of the New Jerusalem who will have the same kind of innate gift of the spirit of seership and to the same degree that Joseph Smith had, and not just by virtue of calling.

well, there are a few exceptions . . .like Samuel the lamanite . . . Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, etc . . . . was Noah "the" prophet? . . . he was "a"prophet . . .Alma the older . . . JS . . . um still thinking . . . but . . . it could happen . . . .cuz man has to work within the boundaries the Lord has given to avoid contention in the church . . . . but . .. God . . .

btw JS didn't have the priesthood or even baptism . . but saw God . . God didn't break the rules . . . but . . . its hard to explain why this happened outside of earthly authority . . .

God isn't contentious and can call anyone he wants . . . .did you know that those arrogant, prideful, self centered Nephites did NOT write the words of Samuel the Lamanite . . . when Christ was here visiting them and teaching them the gospel . . .in the promised land(wasn't America yet) then he asked them why they hadn't written the words of Samuel as he had told them to . . .

then . . he made them bring the records to him and told them to write his words . . .all in the BofM . . . even though Samuel was not in the "line of authority ' . . the other things I find interesting is: the prophets of that day were raising brothers from the dead, asking God for a famine instead of war . . and so on and so on . . . tremendous power and priesthood to do that . . . yet they were still too arrogant to write the words of a Lamanite . . .hmmmm . . . I personally think there is a message there . . the other thing I find interesting . . .

there is a saying that :pride cometh before the fall." is it a psalm or something ? anyway . . it's not true . . .lots of pride on our earth and IN the church and I'm still not even seeing the fall . . .may be it should have the words added . . "but don't expect the fall too soon." cuz God's grace has been extended to the Gentiles . . all of them . .

we all have a lot of things to add to the conversation in our world . . problem . . most people don't want to listen . . they want to be the talkers . . . which is ok . . . and . . . we all have pride . . . I've tried to walk away from pride, but . . . still there . . it keeps following me around . . won't let me go without it . . it sure use to let me keep myself from hearing others and considering the real world that I live in . . . .

the church may be true . . but . . .everything that I say may not be . . . if I listen and consider then I can change my mind for good or bad . . .even if it is spoken by one of those dirty, cursed Lamanites . . .