LDS Freedom Forum

Mamabear wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 8:27 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 6:48 pm

iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 2:04 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 2:02 pm

Joseph Smith and Brigham Young both taught this.

There are several sources that document this.

I’ve seen quotes by both saying that for Heavenly Father (that there’s only one Father for this earth), but I’ve never seen anything saying He used only one of His wives for this earth.

Source?

I will have to get back to you with the references, but BY taught that Adam and Eve were our Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. He taught that Adam brought ONE of his wives with him to this earth (Eve) and that she is the common mother of all of our spirits. He taught that each earth has its Adam and its Eve and that if we are faithful we will fulfill these roles on our own worlds someday.

According to a poem written by William Law, JS was teaching that when men become Gods in the Celestial kingdom they will be able to create ONE world for EACH wife that they take with them there.

I wonder how Brigham received these laughable theories if he never saw the Lord face to face.

He heard them from Joseph Smith

Pazooka wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 8:36 pm

Mamabear wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 8:27 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 6:48 pm

iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 2:04 pm

I’ve seen quotes by both saying that for Heavenly Father (that there’s only one Father for this earth), but I’ve never seen anything saying He used only one of His wives for this earth.

Source?

I will have to get back to you with the references, but BY taught that Adam and Eve were our Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. He taught that Adam brought ONE of his wives with him to this earth (Eve) and that she is the common mother of all of our spirits. He taught that each earth has its Adam and its Eve and that if we are faithful we will fulfill these roles on our own worlds someday.

According to a poem written by William Law, JS was teaching that when men become Gods in the Celestial kingdom they will be able to create ONE world for EACH wife that they take with them there.

I wonder how Brigham received these laughable theories if he never saw the Lord face to face.

He heard them from Joseph Smith

Is there written evidence of Joseph saying this? Or is that what Brigham said?

Mamabear wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 8:27 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 6:48 pm

iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 2:04 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 2:02 pm

Joseph Smith and Brigham Young both taught this.

There are several sources that document this.

I’ve seen quotes by both saying that for Heavenly Father (that there’s only one Father for this earth), but I’ve never seen anything saying He used only one of His wives for this earth.

Source?

I will have to get back to you with the references, but BY taught that Adam and Eve were our Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. He taught that Adam brought ONE of his wives with him to this earth (Eve) and that she is the common mother of all of our spirits. He taught that each earth has its Adam and its Eve and that if we are faithful we will fulfill these roles on our own worlds someday.

According to a poem written by William Law, JS was teaching that when men become Gods in the Celestial kingdom they will be able to create ONE world for EACH wife that they take with them there.

I wonder how Brigham received these laughable theories if he never saw the Lord face to face.

He was taught by Joseph Smith and the Holy Ghost.

Mamabear wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 8:38 pm
Is there written evidence of Joseph saying this?

Yes

And yet, no clear source. Nor any rebuttal to Heavenly Father being a polygamist, making Heavenly Mother one of many.

I might have to go digging in the Journal of Discourses tomorrow, see what I can find.

Bottom line, we may not be getting a revelation from the church on the mother of our spirits any time soon, but it sure is a heckuva puzzle to put together.

Well, here’s one:

“... it will be seen that the great Messiah who was the founder of the Christian religion was a polygamist... the Messiah chose... by marrying many honorable wives himself, to show to all future generations that he approbated the plurality of wives under the Christian dispensation in which His polygamist ancestors lived.

“We have clearly shown that God the Father had a plurality of wives, one or more being in eternity, by whom He begat our spirits as well as the spirit of Jesus His First Born, and another being upon the earth by whom He begat the tabernacle of Jesus, as his only begotten in this world. We have also proved most clearly that the Son followed the example of his Father, and became the great Bridegroom to whom Kings' daughters and many honorable wives were to be married. We have also proved that both God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ inherit their wives in eternity as well as in time... And then it would be so shocking to the modesty of the very pious ladies of Christendom to see Abraham and his wives, Jacob and his wives, Jesus and his honorable wives, all eating occasionally at the same table, and visiting one another, and conversing about their numerous children and their kingdoms. Oh, ye delicate ladies of Christendom, how can you endure such a scene as this?... If you do not want your morals corrupted, and your delicate ears shocked, and your pious modesty put to the blush by the society of Polygamists and their wives, do not venture near the New Earth; for polygamists will be honored there, and will be among the chief rules in that Kingdom.”

- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 172

God’s wives filled the temple:

“The Scripture says that He, the Lord, came walking in the Temple, with His train; I do not know who they were, unless His wives and children; but at any rate they filled the Temple, and how many there were who could not get into the Temple I cannot say. This is the account given by Isaiah, whether he told the truth or not I leave every body to judge for himself.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 309

This one confounds things a bit with Adam/God theory:

“Who begat the Son of God? Infidels say that Jesus was a bastard, but let me tell you the truth concerning that matter. Our Father begat all the spirits that were, before any tabernacles were made. When our Father came into the garden, He came with His celestial body and brought one of His wives with Him and ate of the fruit of the garden until He could beget a tabernacle, and Adam is Michael or God and all the God that we have anything to do with. They eat of this fruit and formed the first tabernacle that was formed. And when the Virgin Mary was begotten with child, it was by the Father and in no other way, in no other way, only as we were begotten. I will tell you the truth as it is in God. The world don't know that Jesus Christ our elder brother was begotten by our Father in Heaven. Handle it as you please, it will either seal the damnation or salvation of man. He was begotten by the Father and not by the Holy Ghost.”

- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Wilford Woodruff's Journal, April 9, 1852

And here’s the odd passage about Mary:

“The fleshy body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated together in the capacity of Husband and Wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father: we use the term lawful Wife, because it would be blasphemous in the highest degree to say that He overshadowed her or begat the Saviour unlawfully. It would have been unlawful for any man to have interfered with Mary, who was already espoused to Joseph; for such a heinous crime would have subjected both the guilty parties to death, according to the law of Moses. But God having created all men and women, had the most perfect right to do with His own creation, according to His holy will and pleasure: He had a lawful right to overshadow the Virgin Mary in the capacity of a husband, and beget a Son, although she was espoused to another; for the law which He gave to govern men and women was not intended to govern Himself, or to prescribe rules for his own conduct. It was also lawful in Him, after leaving thus dealt with Mary, to give her to Joseph her espoused husband. Whether God the Father gave Mary to Joseph for time only, or for time and eternity, we are not informed. Inasmuch as God was the first husband to her, it may be that He only gave her to be the wife of Joseph while in this mortal state, and that He intended after the resurrection to again take her as one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits in eternity.”

- Apostle Orson Pratt, “Celestial Marriage,” The Seer, October 1853, v. 1, no. 10, p. 158

iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 8:51 pm And yet, no clear source. Nor any rebuttal to Heavenly Father being a polygamist, making Heavenly Mother one of many.

I might have to go digging in the Journal of Discourses tomorrow, see what I can find.

Bottom line, we may not be getting a revelation from the church on the mother of our spirits any time soon, but it sure is a heckuva puzzle to put together.

According to the early teachings of the church God is a polygamist, but only brought one of his wives with him to this earth. She is the only mother of our spirits (the spirits on this earth.) For every world God creates, he only brings one wife with him to be the Heavenly Mother of that earth.

Here are a few of the references I was referring to:

Brigham Young

Brigham Young Friday 4/9/1852 JD 1:50
Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! About whom holy men have written and spoken - He is our father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do.


Brigham Young Sunday 10/8/1854 John Pulsipher Papers, 35-37
So we had a grandfather & great-great-great-great-great grandfather So far back there is no beginning - They always Existed on some world - & when this work was made - our God who is Adam came & commenced the peopling of it - Tho he is God & had lived & died & been reserected on some other plannet - & obtained his exaltation & begat the Spirits of children enough people this world he came down & brot some of the animal & vegetable productions of some other world so that they might grow & increase here - He by eating the mortal fruits of the Earth, it caused & produced mortal children or commenced the increase of men on the Earth which is the bodies for the Spirits to live in There never was a time when Worlds were not created - The work of creation was always in Progress - An Adam & Eve is necesary for every world The oldest Son, if faithful, is the Saviour of the family - There are Lords many & Gods many But the God that we have to account to, is the father of our Spirits - Adam.

Brigham Young 8/25/1867
Adam's father came to him, saying here is the wife you have had so long, now
you are going to have one wife to take with you to yonder earth, and if any of your other
wives ever go to an earth to become the mother of all living, to become an Eve, it will
be to another earth, not to that one. She is called Eve because she is the mother of all
living, and she is the queen of that earth. Adam is the Lord of the earth and the father of
all living on this earth, as Eve is the mother of all living on this earth.


Brigham Young Lecture at the Veil Tuesday 2/7/1877 Journal of L. John Nuttall
Adam was an immortal being when he came. On this earth he had lived on an earth similar to ours he had received the Priesthood and the Keys thereof. and had been faithful in all things and gained his resurrection and his exaltation and was crowned with glory immortality and eternal lives and was numbered with the Gods for such he became through his faithfulness. and [Adam] had begotten all the spirit that was to come to this earth. and Eve our common Mother who is the mother of all living bore those spirits in the celestial world. And when this earth was organized by Elohim. Jehovah & Michael who is Adam our common Father. Adam & Eve had the privilege to continue the work of Progression. consequently came to this earth and commenced the great work of forming tabernacles for those spirits to dwell in.

Joseph Smith

William Law 2/7/1844 Warsaw Message (Buckeye's Lament for More Wives)

There you may shine like mighty Gods,
creating worlds so fair.
At least a world for every wife
that you take with you there.
The man that has got ten fair wives,
Ten worlds he may create;

Brigham Young was a deceived man.

Everything centered around having sex with multiple women.

The Brighamite religion is built around this idea.

Mary bore a child as a virgin. Jesus was not conceived through intercourse between a man and a woman...... Hence the word VIRGIN

Evil with a D slipped into a great movement....and the brighamites were born



(Pun intended)

Atticus wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 9:39 pm

iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 8:51 pm And yet, no clear source. Nor any rebuttal to Heavenly Father being a polygamist, making Heavenly Mother one of many.

I might have to go digging in the Journal of Discourses tomorrow, see what I can find.

Bottom line, we may not be getting a revelation from the church on the mother of our spirits any time soon, but it sure is a heckuva puzzle to put together.

And when this earth was organized by Elohim. Jehovah & Michael who is Adam our common Father. Adam & Eve had the privilege to continue the work

Atticus - it would seem your main body of evidence consists of Brigham’s garbled Adam/God theory and the witness of William Law, an apostate. Flimsy, but I suppose we go to war with the army we have, not the army we want.

Say whatever else you will about Heavenly Mother(s), this thread certainly exposes the most whacky and tacky of all purported LDS theology.

Can you imagine belonging to a church that still believed this stuff?

iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 9:59 pm

Atticus wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 9:39 pm

iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 8:51 pm And yet, no clear source. Nor any rebuttal to Heavenly Father being a polygamist, making Heavenly Mother one of many.

I might have to go digging in the Journal of Discourses tomorrow, see what I can find.

Bottom line, we may not be getting a revelation from the church on the mother of our spirits any time soon, but it sure is a heckuva puzzle to put together.

And when this earth was organized by Elohim. Jehovah & Michael who is Adam our common Father. Adam & Eve had the privilege to continue the work

Atticus - it would seem your main body of evidence consists of Brigham’s garbled Adam/God theory and the witness of William Law, an apostate. Flimsy, but I suppose we go to war with the army we have, not the army we want.

Say whatever else you will about Heavenly Mother(s), this thread certainly exposes the most whacky and tacky of all purported LDS theology.

Can you imagine belonging to a church that still believed this stuff?

I don't consider Brigham Young's Adam-God teachings to be garbled. I think overall his teachings were pretty consistent and logical.

William Law is by no means the only source that shows that Joseph Smith taught essentially the same thing that Brigham Young did.

The Church today actually does still believe the essence of what BY and JS taught about the plurality of the Gods, polygamy, eternal progression, Heavenly Mother, the fall of Adam being necessary, Adam being one of the Gods that created the earth, etc.

Adam-God is directly connected to all of these things. There is confusion about all of the these things in the church today, even though we believe them all. Adam-God is what fills in the gaps. The problem is that the members can't handle it because it's too opposite of mainstream Christianity, so it's been hidden.

God’s a uranist. No such thing as “Heavenly Mother(s)”; only Heavenly Fathers.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 9:39 pm Brigham Young Lecture at the Veil Tuesday 2/7/1877 Journal of L. John Nuttall
Adam was an immortal being when he came. On this earth he had lived on an earth similar to ours he had received the Priesthood and the Keys thereof. and had been faithful in all things and gained his resurrection and his exaltation and was crowned with glory immortality and eternal lives and was numbered with the Gods for such he became through his faithfulness. and [Adam] had begotten all the spirit that was to come to this earth. and Eve our common Mother who is the mother of all living bore those spirits in the celestial world. And when this earth was organized by Elohim. Jehovah & Michael who is Adam our common Father. Adam & Eve had the privilege to continue the work of Progression. consequently came to this earth and commenced the great work of forming tabernacles for those spirits to dwell in.

I guess that this is the only relevant BY quote. The other quotes could just mean that Eve is the mother of all in flesh. However, this quote could be even more specific. It doesn't mention Adam's other wives at all. Could Eve represent all the Heavenly Mothers in this? That is probably a stretch, though.

inho wrote: ↑April 4th, 2022, 1:00 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 9:39 pm Brigham Young Lecture at the Veil Tuesday 2/7/1877 Journal of L. John Nuttall
Adam was an immortal being when he came. On this earth he had lived on an earth similar to ours he had received the Priesthood and the Keys thereof. and had been faithful in all things and gained his resurrection and his exaltation and was crowned with glory immortality and eternal lives and was numbered with the Gods for such he became through his faithfulness. and [Adam] had begotten all the spirit that was to come to this earth. and Eve our common Mother who is the mother of all living bore those spirits in the celestial world. And when this earth was organized by Elohim. Jehovah & Michael who is Adam our common Father. Adam & Eve had the privilege to continue the work of Progression. consequently came to this earth and commenced the great work of forming tabernacles for those spirits to dwell in.

I guess that this is the only relevant BY quote. The other quotes could just mean that Eve is the mother of all in flesh. However, this quote could be even more specific. It doesn't mention Adam's other wives at all. Could Eve represent all the Heavenly Mothers in this? That is probably a stretch, though.

The other quotes are completely relevant. You can't just take one quote and isolate it. BY clearly taught that Adam is our Heavenly Father and Eve our Heavenly Mother. He also taught that Adam’s other wives will be the queens or Heavenly Mothers of other planets. Each is the queen of different planet.

I have only shared a couple of quotes. There are quite a few more that support this.

iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 9:31 pm This one confounds things a bit with Adam/God theory:

“Who begat the Son of God? Infidels say that Jesus was a bastard, but let me tell you the truth concerning that matter. Our Father begat all the spirits that were, before any tabernacles were made. When our Father came into the garden, He came with His celestial body and brought one of His wives with Him and ate of the fruit of the garden until He could beget a tabernacle, and Adam is Michael or God and all the God that we have anything to do with. They eat of this fruit and formed the first tabernacle that was formed. And when the Virgin Mary was begotten with child, it was by the Father and in no other way, in no other way, only as we were begotten. I will tell you the truth as it is in God. The world don't know that Jesus Christ our elder brother was begotten by our Father in Heaven. Handle it as you please, it will either seal the damnation or salvation of man. He was begotten by the Father and not by the Holy Ghost.”

- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Wilford Woodruff's Journal, April 9, 1852

So Adam/God came down and impregnated Mary?
Oh that’s rich. But I’m sure Joseph taught him that, right? That’s what BY always claimed.
Edit:
Not to mention that would mean the angel Gabriel lied to Mary’s face.

Mamabear wrote: ↑April 4th, 2022, 7:21 am

iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 9:31 pm This one confounds things a bit with Adam/God theory:

“Who begat the Son of God? Infidels say that Jesus was a bastard, but let me tell you the truth concerning that matter. Our Father begat all the spirits that were, before any tabernacles were made. When our Father came into the garden, He came with His celestial body and brought one of His wives with Him and ate of the fruit of the garden until He could beget a tabernacle, and Adam is Michael or God and all the God that we have anything to do with. They eat of this fruit and formed the first tabernacle that was formed. And when the Virgin Mary was begotten with child, it was by the Father and in no other way, in no other way, only as we were begotten. I will tell you the truth as it is in God. The world don't know that Jesus Christ our elder brother was begotten by our Father in Heaven. Handle it as you please, it will either seal the damnation or salvation of man. He was begotten by the Father and not by the Holy Ghost.”

- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Wilford Woodruff's Journal, April 9, 1852

So Adam/God came down and impregnated Mary?
Oh that’s rich. But I’m sure Joseph taught him that, right? That’s what BY always claimed.
Edit:
Not to mention that would mean the angel Gabriel lied to Mary’s face.

Why would Adam/God impregnating Mary "mean the angel Gabriel lied to Mary’s face?"

iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 1:24 pm I’m not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but perhaps one reason the acknowledgement of Heavenly Mother is a big non-starter may have something to do with the following:

1) God is a perfected, exalted man.
2) Exalted men are polygamists (see: D&C 132).
3) God has multiple wives.
4) Ergo, it’s not Heavenly Mother, but Heavenly Mothers.

Focus on this for too long and one’s head might explode.

Per Brigham Young, “The only men who become Gods, even the sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy.”

If you believe DC 132 is authentic and take the mainstream church's word for everything that has developed doctrinally since the church began then this is really the only logical conclusion.

I think Brigham Young being a fraud is a possibility, which would make this simply false doctrine from his mouth. But if you believe that he was a prophet then I don't see how you wouldn't come to this conclusion of plural Heavenly Mothers.

OPMissionary wrote: ↑April 4th, 2022, 9:13 am
If you believe DC 132 is authentic and take the mainstream church's word for everything that has developed doctrinally since the church began then this is really the only logical conclusion.

I think Brigham Young being a fraud is a possibility, which would make this simply false doctrine from his mouth. But if you believe that he was a prophet then I don't see how you wouldn't come to this conclusion of plural Heavenly Mothers.

How is plural Heavenly Mothers the only logical conclusion based on Brigham’s teachings?

He taught that our only Heavenly Mother is Eve and that each world only has one Heavenly Mother.

Atticus wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 1:29 pm

iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 1:24 pm I’m not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but perhaps one reason the acknowledgement of Heavenly Mother is a big non-starter may have something to do with the following:

1) God is a perfected, exalted man.
2) Exalted men are polygamists (see: D&C 132).
3) God has multiple wives.
4) Ergo, it’s not Heavenly Mother, but Heavenly Mothers.

Focus on this for too long and one’s head might explode.

For us there is only one Heavenly Mother.

There is only one Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother per planet.

NO, if LDS theology on this is carried to its logical conculsion, there would be mothers, a plurality.

which is why the church is terrified of the idea.

The heavenly mother narrative is inherently dangerous to the church's image right now.

Think about it. The LDS church, historically, is known to be a bag of speculative theology. From Brigham Young and Adam/God, the last days and, to who will have genitals in the afterlife. Prophets have made all kinds of ridiculous claims over the years that have been proven false, declared false, or ridiculed rightly.

The speculative theology is precisely the thing that the church is desperate to get away from. That’s why they don’t use the journal of discourses. That’s why they run all of the teachings to the prophets through correlation committees. Because they desperately want to show the world how “normal” the Mormon church is.

They want to be seen as another institution. But they want to run away from their past. (for example the I’m a Mormon campaign and meet the Mormons tithing funded films)

For the church to promulgate a concrete idea of a heavenly mother would be seen, rightly, as heresy to the rest of the Christian world. Which would put LDS inc. right back into the corner where they were at the beginning of the 20th century.

The church first and foremost is a corporate institution with international operations. Promulgating an idea such as this, while they are trying to do image makeovers and create a new narrative is never going to happen.

JSmith wrote: ↑April 4th, 2022, 10:35 am

Atticus wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 1:29 pm

iWriteStuff wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 1:24 pm I’m not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but perhaps one reason the acknowledgement of Heavenly Mother is a big non-starter may have something to do with the following:

1) God is a perfected, exalted man.
2) Exalted men are polygamists (see: D&C 132).
3) God has multiple wives.
4) Ergo, it’s not Heavenly Mother, but Heavenly Mothers.

Focus on this for too long and one’s head might explode.

For us there is only one Heavenly Mother.

There is only one Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother per planet.

NO, if LDS theology on this is carried to its logical conculsion, there would be mothers, a plurality.

which is why the church is terrified of the idea.

No, LDS theology has consistently held that there is a single Mother in Heaven. Even Brigham Young taught this.

But, I know some people who believe that the people on this planet have different Heavenly Mothers and they aren't terrified of this.