LDS Freedom Forum

darknesstolight wrote: ↑April 4th, 2022, 8:59 am

ransomme wrote: ↑April 4th, 2022, 7:10 am

darknesstolight wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 4:45 pm

pancake wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 4:41 pm

Let me offer a more complete answer.


This is unscriptural. Your own inner sense of rightness is insufficient.

"A willingness to be obedient is part of offering the Lord a broken heart and contrite spirit. We have to be willing to actually follow His commands before He gives them. The whole process of offering the Lord a broken heart and contrite spirit is going to be different for each of us. It is not easy. In many cases we are not ready or able to make the offering because of our misunderstandings. So we need to ask the Lord to give us the experiences we need in order to learn how to make the offering acceptable unto Him. This will require asking the Lord to help us identify and remove all of the idols in our life."

As we continually follow this path of continually offering the Lord a broken heart and contrite spirit, seeking His will, following the personal commandments He gives us, the Lord will gradually bestow greater and greater blessings upon us until we are able to see Him face to face in this life. "And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do."

This is taught everywhere in the scriptures.

Her statement that her point was the same as my statement that "You do not know Christ if all you are doing is following commandments given to you by men!" is an opinion I do not share. The process I have outlined in this post is how to "know Christ" and the things she stated in her post didn't begin to cover this.

I don't care. I told what I see. I still see the same thing but now I see something else too but now I'm also done responding to this issue with you. Two or three witnesses. Do what you wish.

...

I think you must speak Never or have a gift of tongues, because the combination of symbols, letters, etc that she originally composed did not carry the same meaning in English as what Pancake wrote.

So with EvanLM there are 3 witnesses against.

Evan accused me of saying what I did because I liked her. You want to use him as a witness go ahead.

...

you know that is not the part of Evan's statement that I am referring to. No bait and switch here.

To refresh your memory, "disagree. . . no she isn't" (ie not saying the same thing)

ransomme wrote: ↑April 4th, 2022, 9:39 am

darknesstolight wrote: ↑April 4th, 2022, 8:59 am

ransomme wrote: ↑April 4th, 2022, 7:10 am

darknesstolight wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 4:45 pm

I don't care. I told what I see. I still see the same thing but now I see something else too but now I'm also done responding to this issue with you. Two or three witnesses. Do what you wish.

...

I think you must speak Never or have a gift of tongues, because the combination of symbols, letters, etc that she originally composed did not carry the same meaning in English as what Pancake wrote.

So with EvanLM there are 3 witnesses against.

Evan accused me of saying what I did because I liked her. You want to use him as a witness go ahead.

...

you know that is not the part of Evan's statement that I am referring to. No bait and switch here.

To refresh your memory, "disagree. . . no she isn't" (ie not saying the same thing)

Evan said I agree with NeveR because I like her . He says my view is prejudiced. He has nothing to justify this which reveals his bias against me. This is further reinforced by the fact that he has gotten upset at me in the past because of me challenging his views.

So who is actually prejudiced here? Who would agree or disagree with a position simply because they either like or dislike a person. Sneaky little trick by Evan no?

So if you think he is a realible witness in this context then great.

...

darknesstolight wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 4:19 pm

pancake wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 4:00 pm

darknesstolight wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 3:51 pm

pancake wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 2:47 pm
NeveR wrote, "If all that is asked of us ultimately is unquestioning obedience then what's the point?"

This first question she makes should hopefully illustrate my point to you, darknesstolight. In all of her posts she makes a bunch of statements/questions with assumptions I don't agree with.

No it doesn't. She agrees with you. Instead of assuming I can see what you see why don't you explicitly explain the issue with that question? What assumptions do you think she is making that you don't agree with?

That question you quote has to be taken in context of her post. She is saying that blind obedience to another man is not what we should be doing. She is saying that you have to listen to your heart, your inner light, which is the Spirit, and follow your conscience as opposed to blindly following the conscience of another.

What am I missing? Be specific. Your post was sincerely and honestly not enough to illustrate your point.

...

It makes the assumption that I believe my post can be described by as "all that is asked of us ultimately is unquestioning obedience" when it is in fact so much more. It is in no way a simple one-liner as she proposes. Prophets have described (what I consider only part of the process) as struggling mightily with the Lord. This is not something to be taken lightly.

And this is just her first question. All the other questions/statements are the same.

Pancake she made a point and asked a question to strengthen her point . Her question wasn't directed at your words.

But whatever contend with her if you want but you have two uninvolved impartial no skin in the game witnesses saying you are saying the same thing. But do your thing!

...

Pancake
"The goal is to seek the face of God. Offer the Lord a broken heart and contrite spirit, continually seek His will, and continually follow His personal commandments for us. Faithfully following these personal commandments is how we become sanctified."

NeveR
"If all that is asked of us ultimately is unquestioning obedience then what's the point? What have we learned?
"Don't question, don't think, just obey"?
Isn't that everything that's currently wrong with the world? People abandoning their own conscience and just doing as they're told?
I don't think that's what God wants. I think that's what man-made churches want.
I think what God asks of us is perhaps the most difficult thing any human can do - follow their OWN conscience wherever it leads. Defy any man-made authority, even those claiming to speak for God, if it conflicts with your inner sense of rightness."

So to continually do God's will is the same as God asking us to follow our own conscience?

Hmmm, I thought it was pretty clear that NeveR didn't agree when she said, "I don't think that's what God wants."

How do you see that they are saying the same thing exactly?

I agree with NeveR in terms of blindly following the commandments of men, especially the ones currently at the helm. The scriptures are rather clear as to the state of our leadership and I believe the scriptures more than a bunch of mall builders and stock market gamblers. Our church leaders are in bed with the whore Babylon and we expect the will of God to be revealed through them? If not personal revelation, then what? If, as a people, we had been righteous and followed the commandments, we would be living a Zion lifestyle wherein there would be no poor... As a people we have failed to do that and will be tried in the crucible of affliction as promised, for violation of the Covenant. Our only hope is that we, as individuals, can live worthily enough to merit the companionship of the Holy Ghost and be in communion with God in order that we may know His will for us.

Some of you out there should chill a bit and quit bickering. We all have our own past, present and future and I'm not in any position to judge the motivations of others and their relationship with God.

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario

MikeMaillet wrote: ↑April 5th, 2022, 2:02 am I agree with NeveR in terms of blindly following the commandments of men, especially the ones currently at the helm. The scriptures are rather clear as to the state of our leadership and I believe the scriptures more than a bunch of mall builders and stock market gamblers. Our church leaders are in bed with the whore Babylon and we expect the will of God to be revealed through them? If not personal revelation, then what? If, as a people, we had been righteous and followed the commandments, we would be living a Zion lifestyle wherein there would be no poor... As a people we have failed to do that and will be tried in the crucible of affliction as promised, for violation of the Covenant. Our only hope is that we, as individuals, can live worthily enough to merit the companionship of the Holy Ghost and be in communion with God in order that we may know His will for us.

Some of you out there should chill a bit and quit bickering. We all have our own past, present and future and I'm not in any position to judge the motivations of others and their relationship with God.

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario

slightly Umm just to be clear, the conversation isn't about the rules of men, it's about repenting and following God's commandments. That said, I agree that Church policy and guidelines are not the Gospel, not God's commandments, etc. We should all seek personal revelation and "covet to prophesy" by the power of the HG. (1 Cor 14:39).

I also agree more or less with the rest. IMHO God knew the early Church would fail, and not achieve Zion, but they were given the commandment and opportunity anyway. We have agency to do our will or God's will (spoiler alert, we are supposed to do God's will because we are sent here as His agents). God knows the end from the beginning and the beginning from the end. I think the scriptures are clear about the aforementioned failure and the lead up to the Day of the Lord, the Endtime (the few years (say ~10 years for argument's sake) surrounding Christ's 2nd Coming). Given that, we can still achieve our own spiritual progression and sanctify ourselves within our own allotted probation. Individually we are still to strive to image God; to become Zion-like, God-like, and truly take upon ourselves the name of Christ.

Hopefully, many of us will be sanctified, and if the time is here ready to help the Remnant of Jacob build Zion during the Endtime as prophesied.

BeNotDeceived wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 6:36 pm

darknesstolight wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 4:45 pm
… Two or three witnesses …

A valid point.

Me photo at march8miracle.org had two witnesses.

There were two scripture references showing when the seventh seal opened.

Today’s purple circle photo was time stamped and geolocated. The third witness was the inclusion of my boarding pass in said OTZ type photo.

The event on March 18th, 2020 had thousands of witnesses and dozens of seismic recordings.

Indeed, witnesses are a good thing.

3*8**

what? tell me again where to look . . I'm not good at riddles . . . want to see this, pleez

darknesstolight wrote: ↑April 4th, 2022, 5:32 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑April 4th, 2022, 9:39 am

darknesstolight wrote: ↑April 4th, 2022, 8:59 am

ransomme wrote: ↑April 4th, 2022, 7:10 am

I think you must speak Never or have a gift of tongues, because the combination of symbols, letters, etc that she originally composed did not carry the same meaning in English as what Pancake wrote.

So with EvanLM there are 3 witnesses against.

Evan accused me of saying what I did because I liked her. You want to use him as a witness go ahead.

...

you know that is not the part of Evan's statement that I am referring to. No bait and switch here.

To refresh your memory, "disagree. . . no she isn't" (ie not saying the same thing)

Evan said I agree with NeveR because I like her . He says my view is prejudiced. He has nothing to justify this which reveals his bias against me. This is further reinforced by the fact that he has gotten upset at me in the past because of me challenging his views.

So who is actually prejudiced here? Who would agree or disagree with a position simply because they either like or dislike a person. Sneaky little trick by Evan no?

So if you think he is a realible witness in this context then great.

...

cry me a river . . . a true debate allows opinions to differ . . but not facts . . . if you don't like debate then just make up your own rules . . . that works . . .I'm not offended at anyone and can accept a difference of opinion . . in fact, I have stated may times that I enjoy the differences stated on this site cuz people are more honest here than at church or the world . . .

pleez keep up the debate but don't cry if someones opinion makes you question where you are at . . it's actually ok

or, maybe you like a world where we all agree and have the same type of house and like the same color . . hmmmmmm kinda contradictory to what you are preaching . . .acceptance of difference . . . different exposure to news and ideas . . different response . . .hmmmmm . . . cry me a river

we are not a Zion yet and I'm not sure that the members of the COJCLDS really know how to get there . . they know how to go to the temple, do missionary service sometime in their life, how to follow a prophet, how to give a testimony, prayer, donate time and money,etc. . . but has anyone ever really taught us how to be a Zion people and did we get it ?

If any of you can in simple terms . . .easy for me to understand . . explain what we must do to be a Zion people on this earth, please do it . . .maybe I am the only one in the dark . . . .help me

maybe I'm the only one in the church that isn't Zion yet and I just didn't get it . . . .

poster's observation of interpretations: when Joseph of Egypt went to prison he had NOT committed a sin or crime of any kind . . .he was a good and faithful servant of God . . thus he had no crime to repent of . . .he went to that prison full of the knowledge of God and light and had to endure the filthy nature of existence there . . .he did not learn anything new in prison but was simply enduring . . .

when someone commits a crime or sin . . .then they lose all of their previous light and knowledge of truth . . . they are skewed by their sins . . . thus the are in prison without the light and knowledge that could have been theirs had they remained faithful . . .they do not learn anything by just being in prison . . you can't gain knowledge of God while living in the gutter . . .

but, when they choose to repent then slowly and only in small increments does the light and knowledge come back . . . if a erson chooses to stop repenting then the knowledge and more light that they could have gained ceases . . .

now, note, I didn't say if they sin again . . . I said if the y choose to STOP repenting, then the further knowledge and light is lost . . . many sinners decide that they have repented enough not realizing that repentance is now for all sins for the rest of your life . . .again . . knowledge and light . . .that could have been gained . . is lost . . .

so the world tells us that we are all better cuz we have stopped that sin but forget to tell -us that we must stop all sins in order to have further knowlege and light . . .so we go on into life telling everyone how smart we are and how enlightened we are because we have been through prison or terrible things or whatever . . . .

they tell us that the enlightened ones are those who know their way and can think for themselves . . .and in our world . . everyone who sins is smarter that those who don't . . what a lie . .

second point . . we are owned by Jesus and God . . they gave us aour bodies through our parents . . they gave us our spirits, our world, our natures, the HG, the gospel . . .should I go on . . . they own us

yes, we follow their every command with blind obedience . . .it is shown in the lives of those many men in the scriptures whether they were regular men, kings, or prophets . . . yea, they own us . . .

you can either learn that on this earth or on the other side . . .they are real and they own us

I use to love this forum for the many things that I learned from others about liberty and God . . . it has gone downhill so much . . it now reflects the world that I live in . . . so sad . . so lost

my brother taught me a great lesson about repentance . . .when he finally repented, my mother wanted him to go tell of his experiences over the pulpit at sacraments meetings or whatever . . .h e did once, then flet so bad that he refused to ever do that again . . he told me tha the had be taught in rehab to NOT go over old war stories . . they help no one . . .

I am sure when he just taught about repentance, then he was happy . . but he if brought the sin into it wasn't good. . . he felt that it ttaught others that they could sin for awhile and repent later. . .

his son told me that he wanted to get the peace form sin that he saw in his dad . . .that was the right way to teach . . . no dwelling on sin that is obvious . . only on the grace of God when one repents for the rest of their life

ransomme wrote: ↑April 5th, 2022, 5:03 am

MikeMaillet wrote: ↑April 5th, 2022, 2:02 am I agree with NeveR in terms of blindly following the commandments of men, especially the ones currently at the helm. The scriptures are rather clear as to the state of our leadership and I believe the scriptures more than a bunch of mall builders and stock market gamblers. Our church leaders are in bed with the whore Babylon and we expect the will of God to be revealed through them? If not personal revelation, then what? If, as a people, we had been righteous and followed the commandments, we would be living a Zion lifestyle wherein there would be no poor... As a people we have failed to do that and will be tried in the crucible of affliction as promised, for violation of the Covenant. Our only hope is that we, as individuals, can live worthily enough to merit the companionship of the Holy Ghost and be in communion with God in order that we may know His will for us.

Some of you out there should chill a bit and quit bickering. We all have our own past, present and future and I'm not in any position to judge the motivations of others and their relationship with God.

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario

slightly Umm just to be clear, the conversation isn't about the rules of men, it's about repenting and following God's commandments. That said, I agree that Church policy and guidelines are not the Gospel, not God's commandments, etc. We should all seek personal revelation and "covet to prophesy" by the power of the HG. (1 Cor 14:39).

I also agree more or less with the rest. IMHO God knew the early Church would fail, and not achieve Zion, but they were given the commandment and opportunity anyway. We have agency to do our will or God's will (spoiler alert, we are supposed to do God's will because we are sent here as His agents). God knows the end from the beginning and the beginning from the end. I think the scriptures are clear about the aforementioned failure and the lead up to the Day of the Lord, the Endtime (the few years (say ~10 years for argument's sake) surrounding Christ's 2nd Coming). Given that, we can still achieve our own spiritual progression and sanctify ourselves within our own allotted probation. Individually we are still to strive to image God; to become Zion-like, God-like, and truly take upon ourselves the name of Christ.

Hopefully, many of us will be sanctified, and if the time is here ready to help the Remnant of Jacob build Zion during the Endtime as prophesied.

Ransomme: Your statement about being sent here as God's agents is interesting. Do you think every human was called to be an agent for God? It's obvious that some people were indeed called as agents. There is no doubt in my mind that people such as Enoch, Adam, Noah et al were called before coming to earth. My Patriarchal blessing suggests that I was chosen to be born in these days and that God had a special assignment for me. I'm not sure if I was sent here to be an agent or sent here because I ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Unless God appears to me and gives me His commandments I will be receiving those commandments via the voice of a human and will have to use judgment as to whether the commandment is true or false. To me, that's not the same as following my own will. I want to follow the will of God but it can be tricky when men in authority, as they suppose, are spreading lies and falsehoods.

Mike

EvanLM wrote: ↑April 5th, 2022, 6:30 am I use to love this forum for the many things that I learned from others about liberty and God . . . it has gone downhill so much . . it now reflects the world that I live in . . . so sad . . so lost

my brother taught me a great lesson about repentance . . .when he finally repented, my mother wanted him to go tell of his experiences over the pulpit at sacraments meetings or whatever . . .h e did once, then flet so bad that he refused to ever do that again . . he told me tha the had be taught in rehab to NOT go over old war stories . . they help no one . . .

I am sure when he just taught about repentance, then he was happy . . but he if brought the sin into it wasn't good. . . he felt that it ttaught others that they could sin for awhile and repent later. . .

his son told me that he wanted to get the peace form sin that he saw in his dad . . .that was the right way to teach . . . no dwelling on sin that is obvious . . only on the grace of God when one repents for the rest of their life

A very good example. When we repent we are able to let the sin go so that it no longer burdens us. The same goes for forgiveness. Once I am able to forgive, the pain I felt from being wronged is lifted and I am truly blessed. My mind is freed from anger and turmoil.

If any of you can in simple terms . . .easy for me to understand . . explain what we must do to be a Zion people on this earth, please do it . . .maybe I am the only one in the dark . . . .help me

I will over simplify ~ Love ~ Fill your heart and leave no room for anger, hatred, envy, frustrations. Use that love to serve. Put aside all earthly desires and worries. The Lord will help you find a way.

It seems simple and would be, if not for the constant evil consuming us from every angle. Zion is right here in each of our hearts.

darknesstolight wrote: ↑April 4th, 2022, 5:32 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑April 4th, 2022, 9:39 am

darknesstolight wrote: ↑April 4th, 2022, 8:59 am

ransomme wrote: ↑April 4th, 2022, 7:10 am

I think you must speak Never or have a gift of tongues, because the combination of symbols, letters, etc that she originally composed did not carry the same meaning in English as what Pancake wrote.

So with EvanLM there are 3 witnesses against.

Evan accused me of saying what I did because I liked her. You want to use him as a witness go ahead.

...

you know that is not the part of Evan's statement that I am referring to. No bait and switch here.

To refresh your memory, "disagree. . . no she isn't" (ie not saying the same thing)

Evan said I agree with NeveR because I like her . He says my view is prejudiced. He has nothing to justify this which reveals his bias against me. This is further reinforced by the fact that he has gotten upset at me in the past because of me challenging his views.

So who is actually prejudiced here? Who would agree or disagree with a position simply because they either like or dislike a person. Sneaky little trick by Evan no?

So if you think he is a realible witness in this context then great.

...

bwahahahahhahahah that's funny hahahahahah guess I like this forum after all . . please open my eyes

MikeMaillet wrote: ↑April 5th, 2022, 6:56 am

ransomme wrote: ↑April 5th, 2022, 5:03 am

MikeMaillet wrote: ↑April 5th, 2022, 2:02 am I agree with NeveR in terms of blindly following the commandments of men, especially the ones currently at the helm. The scriptures are rather clear as to the state of our leadership and I believe the scriptures more than a bunch of mall builders and stock market gamblers. Our church leaders are in bed with the whore Babylon and we expect the will of God to be revealed through them? If not personal revelation, then what? If, as a people, we had been righteous and followed the commandments, we would be living a Zion lifestyle wherein there would be no poor... As a people we have failed to do that and will be tried in the crucible of affliction as promised, for violation of the Covenant. Our only hope is that we, as individuals, can live worthily enough to merit the companionship of the Holy Ghost and be in communion with God in order that we may know His will for us.

Some of you out there should chill a bit and quit bickering. We all have our own past, present and future and I'm not in any position to judge the motivations of others and their relationship with God.

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario

slightly Umm just to be clear, the conversation isn't about the rules of men, it's about repenting and following God's commandments. That said, I agree that Church policy and guidelines are not the Gospel, not God's commandments, etc. We should all seek personal revelation and "covet to prophesy" by the power of the HG. (1 Cor 14:39).

I also agree more or less with the rest. IMHO God knew the early Church would fail, and not achieve Zion, but they were given the commandment and opportunity anyway. We have agency to do our will or God's will (spoiler alert, we are supposed to do God's will because we are sent here as His agents). God knows the end from the beginning and the beginning from the end. I think the scriptures are clear about the aforementioned failure and the lead up to the Day of the Lord, the Endtime (the few years (say ~10 years for argument's sake) surrounding Christ's 2nd Coming). Given that, we can still achieve our own spiritual progression and sanctify ourselves within our own allotted probation. Individually we are still to strive to image God; to become Zion-like, God-like, and truly take upon ourselves the name of Christ.

Hopefully, many of us will be sanctified, and if the time is here ready to help the Remnant of Jacob build Zion during the Endtime as prophesied.

Ransomme: Your statement about being sent here as God's agents is interesting. Do you think every human was called to be an agent for God? It's obvious that some people were indeed called as agents. There is no doubt in my mind that people such as Enoch, Adam, Noah et al were called before coming to earth. My Patriarchal blessing suggests that I was chosen to be born in these days and that God had a special assignment for me. I'm not sure if I was sent here to be an agent or sent here because I ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Unless God appears to me and gives me His commandments I will be receiving those commandments via the voice of a human and will have to use judgment as to whether the commandment is true or false. To me, that's not the same as following my own will. I want to follow the will of God but it can be tricky when men in authority, as they suppose, are spreading lies and falsehoods.

Mike

It's the divine appointment given to all of God's children. God sends us into this world to be His agents, His proxies: meaning we are supposed to represent God. But we may choose to be agents unto ourselves.

We are like an inverted idol. Not a manmade representation of a god to be worshiped. No, we were made by God to represent Him. We are designed to image God, to develop and take on Godly attributes, traits. To be God's hands and to do God's will. One might say our purpose is to be His image-bearers here on earth.

As Alma questioned, "Alma 5:19 I say unto you, can ye look up to God at that day with a pure heart and clean hands? I say unto you, can you look up, having the image of God engraven upon your countenances?"

Can God be seen in the way we express our faith? In our acts?

I think a different but similar expression is the taking on ourselves the name of Christ. This is the real meaning of the commandment, “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.” We have to walk the walk and not just talk the talk.

One has to "show that you are a letter from Christ...written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts." (2 Corinthians 3:3)

In a way, this divine appointment is the one thing that separates us from the beasts (after all we were even "created" on the same day as the rest of the living creatures, creeping things, and beasts).

We are to be His stewards, caretakers, His gardeners.
"...And I, God, said: Let them have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. And I, God, created man in mine own image, in the image of mine Only Begotten created I him; male and female created I them." (Moses 2:26-27)

ransomme wrote: ↑April 5th, 2022, 4:00 pm

MikeMaillet wrote: ↑April 5th, 2022, 6:56 am

ransomme wrote: ↑April 5th, 2022, 5:03 am

MikeMaillet wrote: ↑April 5th, 2022, 2:02 am I agree with NeveR in terms of blindly following the commandments of men, especially the ones currently at the helm. The scriptures are rather clear as to the state of our leadership and I believe the scriptures more than a bunch of mall builders and stock market gamblers. Our church leaders are in bed with the whore Babylon and we expect the will of God to be revealed through them? If not personal revelation, then what? If, as a people, we had been righteous and followed the commandments, we would be living a Zion lifestyle wherein there would be no poor... As a people we have failed to do that and will be tried in the crucible of affliction as promised, for violation of the Covenant. Our only hope is that we, as individuals, can live worthily enough to merit the companionship of the Holy Ghost and be in communion with God in order that we may know His will for us.

Some of you out there should chill a bit and quit bickering. We all have our own past, present and future and I'm not in any position to judge the motivations of others and their relationship with God.

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario

slightly Umm just to be clear, the conversation isn't about the rules of men, it's about repenting and following God's commandments. That said, I agree that Church policy and guidelines are not the Gospel, not God's commandments, etc. We should all seek personal revelation and "covet to prophesy" by the power of the HG. (1 Cor 14:39).

I also agree more or less with the rest. IMHO God knew the early Church would fail, and not achieve Zion, but they were given the commandment and opportunity anyway. We have agency to do our will or God's will (spoiler alert, we are supposed to do God's will because we are sent here as His agents). God knows the end from the beginning and the beginning from the end. I think the scriptures are clear about the aforementioned failure and the lead up to the Day of the Lord, the Endtime (the few years (say ~10 years for argument's sake) surrounding Christ's 2nd Coming). Given that, we can still achieve our own spiritual progression and sanctify ourselves within our own allotted probation. Individually we are still to strive to image God; to become Zion-like, God-like, and truly take upon ourselves the name of Christ.

Hopefully, many of us will be sanctified, and if the time is here ready to help the Remnant of Jacob build Zion during the Endtime as prophesied.

Ransomme: Your statement about being sent here as God's agents is interesting. Do you think every human was called to be an agent for God? It's obvious that some people were indeed called as agents. There is no doubt in my mind that people such as Enoch, Adam, Noah et al were called before coming to earth. My Patriarchal blessing suggests that I was chosen to be born in these days and that God had a special assignment for me. I'm not sure if I was sent here to be an agent or sent here because I ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Unless God appears to me and gives me His commandments I will be receiving those commandments via the voice of a human and will have to use judgment as to whether the commandment is true or false. To me, that's not the same as following my own will. I want to follow the will of God but it can be tricky when men in authority, as they suppose, are spreading lies and falsehoods.

Mike

It's the divine appointment given to all of God's children. God sends us into this world to be His agents, His proxies: meaning we are supposed to represent God. But we may choose to be agents unto ourselves.

We are like an inverted idol. Not a manmade representation of a god to be worshiped. No, we were made by God to represent Him. We are designed to image God, to develop and take on Godly attributes, traits. To be God's hands and to do God's will. One might say our purpose is to be His image-bearers here on earth.

As Alma questioned, "Alma 5:19 I say unto you, can ye look up to God at that day with a pure heart and clean hands? I say unto you, can you look up, having the image of God engraven upon your countenances?"

Can God be seen in the way we express our faith? In our acts?

I think a different but similar expression is the taking on ourselves the name of Christ. This is the real meaning of the commandment, “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.” We have to walk the walk and not just talk the talk.

One has to "show that you are a letter from Christ...written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts." (2 Corinthians 3:3)

In a way, this divine appointment is the one thing that separates us from the beasts (after all we were even "created" on the same day as the rest of the living creatures, creeping things, and beasts).

We are to be His stewards, caretakers, His gardeners.
"...And I, God, said: Let them have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. And I, God, created man in mine own image, in the image of mine Only Begotten created I him; male and female created I them." (Moses 2:26-27)

Thanks, Ransomme. Your reply is well thought and well appreciated.

Mike

The Book of Mormon serves as a "type" for us Gentiles and what we can expect.

8 ...thus saith the Lord: Because of the hardness of the hearts of the people of the Nephites, except they repent I will take away my word from them, and I will withdraw my Spirit from them, and I will suffer them no longer, and I will turn the hearts of their brethren against them.
9 And four hundred years shall not pass away before I will cause that they shall be smitten; yea, I will visit them with the sword and with famine and with pestilence.

One 'tell' I too often hear members of Christ's Church express which convinces me many are ignorant of the true message of The Book of Mormon, is confusion over who it was actually smitten ...with the sword and with famine and with pestilence after 400 years of peace and exactly WHY they were smitten to extinction.

Too often the 'Lamanites' are thought to be the 'bad guys', and the Nephites 'the good guys' who were destroyed by their wicked brethren, leaving the Lamanites on the Promised Land as an inherently evil people.

I correlate the destruction of the Nephite People as a warning to the Gentile People who came upon the Land of Promise to worship Christ in order to receive the promises and blessings.

If not, we will likewise be 'swept off' even as the Nephite People were.

EvanLM wrote: ↑April 5th, 2022, 5:29 am we are not a Zion yet and I'm not sure that the members of the COJCLDS really know how to get there . . they know how to go to the temple, do missionary service sometime in their life, how to follow a prophet, how to give a testimony, prayer, donate time and money,etc. . . but has anyone ever really taught us how to be a Zion people and did we get it ?

If any of you can in simple terms . . .easy for me to understand . . explain what we must do to be a Zion people on this earth, please do it . . .maybe I am the only one in the dark . . . .help me

maybe I'm the only one in the church that isn't Zion yet and I just didn't get it . . . .

It's a hippie commune LOL j/k

Zion is a Christ-like community. As we become more like Christ we will approach Zion. Although, we need to wait for the Remnant of Jacob to lead the way before we can actually build New Jerusalem, aka Zion.

I found this series to be interesting: