LDS Freedom Forum

darknesstolight wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 3:51 pm

pancake wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 2:47 pm

darknesstolight wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 2:38 pm

pancake wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 1:04 pm
I have not agreed with the sentiment in any of the posts you have made, regardless as to your belief as to the meaning of my posts vs the meaning of your posts. Perhaps the below response to h_p will help you come to an understanding as to what I mean by offering the Lord a broken heart and contrite spirit.


A willingness to be obedient is part of offering the Lord a broken heart and contrite spirit. We have to be willing to actually follow His commands before He gives them. The whole process of offering the Lord a broken heart and contrite spirit is going to be different for each of us. It is not easy. In many cases we are not ready or able to make the offering because of our misunderstandings. So we need to ask the Lord to give us the experiences we need in order to learn how to make the offering acceptable unto Him. This will require asking the Lord to help us identify and remove all of the idols in our life.

Pancake to me you are saying the same thing as NeveR. To me it seems like you can't see she is agreeing with you because she didn't describe it using the same words or symbols as you.

...

NeveR wrote, "If all that is asked of us ultimately is unquestioning obedience then what's the point?"

This first question she makes should hopefully illustrate my point to you, darknesstolight. In all of her posts she makes a bunch of statements/questions with assumptions I don't agree with.

No it doesn't. She agrees with you. Instead of assuming I can see what you see why don't you explicitly explain the issue with that question? What assumptions do you think she is making that you don't agree with?

That question you quote has to be taken in context of her post. She is saying that blind obedience to another man is not what we should be doing. She is saying that you have to listen to your heart, your inner light, which is the Spirit, and follow your conscience as opposed to blindly following the conscience of another.

What am I missing? Be specific. Your post was sincerely and honestly not enough to illustrate your point.

...

EvanLM wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 4:00 pm

darknesstolight wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 2:38 pm

pancake wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 1:04 pm

NeveR wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 11:15 am @pancake - you still agree with me. You just use different words to describe the same thing.

I say "you must follow your conscience". You say "you must follow the path of the Lord".

Those are both the same thing. The Lord speaks to us through our conscience and its promptings. If we ignore that and instead follow the commands of other men, whether they be church leaders or politicians or a boss at work, we are sinning.

We know in our hearts the right path. And when we see it clearly we have been shown the way. If we turn from it because of fear or desire to conform or desire to be approved of by authority, we are sinning.

I have not agreed with the sentiment in any of the posts you have made, regardless as to your belief as to the meaning of my posts vs the meaning of your posts. Perhaps the below response to h_p will help you come to an understanding as to what I mean by offering the Lord a broken heart and contrite spirit.

h_p wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 11:39 am
Obedience is hard, but not nearly as hard as knowing what to be obedient to.

A willingness to be obedient is part of offering the Lord a broken heart and contrite spirit. We have to be willing to actually follow His commands before He gives them. The whole process of offering the Lord a broken heart and contrite spirit is going to be different for each of us. It is not easy. In many cases we are not ready or able to make the offering because of our misunderstandings. So we need to ask the Lord to give us the experiences we need in order to learn how to make the offering acceptable unto Him. This will require asking the Lord to help us identify and remove all of the idols in our life.

Pancake to me you are saying the same thing as NeveR. To me it seems like you can't see she is agreeing with you because she didn't describe it using the same words or symbols as you.

...

disagree. . . no she isn't . . .you just personally like her and support anything she says

pancake wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 4:00 pm

darknesstolight wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 3:51 pm

pancake wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 2:47 pm

darknesstolight wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 2:38 pm
Pancake to me you are saying the same thing as NeveR. To me it seems like you can't see she is agreeing with you because she didn't describe it using the same words or symbols as you.
...

NeveR wrote, "If all that is asked of us ultimately is unquestioning obedience then what's the point?"

This first question she makes should hopefully illustrate my point to you, darknesstolight. In all of her posts she makes a bunch of statements/questions with assumptions I don't agree with.

No it doesn't. She agrees with you. Instead of assuming I can see what you see why don't you explicitly explain the issue with that question? What assumptions do you think she is making that you don't agree with?

That question you quote has to be taken in context of her post. She is saying that blind obedience to another man is not what we should be doing. She is saying that you have to listen to your heart, your inner light, which is the Spirit, and follow your conscience as opposed to blindly following the conscience of another.

What am I missing? Be specific. Your post was sincerely and honestly not enough to illustrate your point.

...

It makes the assumption that I believe my post can be described by as "all that is asked of us ultimately is unquestioning obedience" when it is in fact so much more. It is in no way a simple one-liner as she proposes. Prophets have described (what I consider only part of the process) as struggling mightily with the Lord. This is not something to be taken lightly.

And this is just her first question. All the other questions/statements are the same.

pancake wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 8:54 am This is good but I think if we don't properly understand the goal it doesn't quite get us there.
D&C 84:23
Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

The goal is to seek the face of God. Offer the Lord a broken heart and contrite spirit, continually seek His will, and continually follow His personal commandments for us. Faithfully following these personal commandments is how we become sanctified.

NeveR wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 10:25 am

pancake wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 10:08 am Your opinion is entirely unscriptural. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." The only way to know these commandments is by seeking His will. You do not know Christ if all you are doing is following commandments given to you by men!

How did you miss the fact that this (highlighted in red) was my point? You said exactly what I said. Obeying other humans at sacrifice of your own sense of right and wrong is a SIN. Even if those humans claim to be speaking for God.

God's voice is in all of us and any instruction we are given that conflicts with our direct prompting should be ignored.

darknesstolight wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 4:19 pm Pancake she made a point and asked a question to strengthen her point . Her question wasn't directed at your words.

NeveR wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 9:54 am I think what God asks of us is perhaps the most difficult thing any human can do - follow their OWN conscience wherever it leads. Defy any man-made authority, even those claiming to speak for God, if it conflicts with your inner sense of rightness.

Just my opinion

EvanLM wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 4:05 pm

darknesstolight wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 3:51 pm

pancake wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 2:47 pm

darknesstolight wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 2:38 pm
Pancake to me you are saying the same thing as NeveR. To me it seems like you can't see she is agreeing with you because she didn't describe it using the same words or symbols as you.

...

NeveR wrote, "If all that is asked of us ultimately is unquestioning obedience then what's the point?"

This first question she makes should hopefully illustrate my point to you, darknesstolight. In all of her posts she makes a bunch of statements/questions with assumptions I don't agree with.

No it doesn't. She agrees with you. Instead of assuming I can see what you see why don't you explicitly explain the issue with that question? What assumptions do you think she is making that you don't agree with?

That question you quote has to be taken in context of her post. She is saying that blind obedience to another man is not what we should be doing. She is saying that you have to listen to your heart, your inner light, which is the Spirit, and follow your conscience as opposed to blindly following the conscience of another.

What am I missing? Be specific. Your post was sincerely and honestly not enough to illustrate your point.

...

he's told us to heed the prophets and folow with blind obedience . . .you and her will not be ready to follow a marred or davidic servant when the need is there . . . the Lord will have no use for you . . . this need to follow messengers(prophets or who the Lord sends) is illustrated in the temple endowment . . . and taught throughout the scriptures . . .the Lord sees this as a signthat you would not follow him and he will cut you off . . . Zion isn't built cuz everyone has their own idea . . . their ideas are one . . .

JohnnyL wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 4:32 pm

pancake wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 8:54 am This is good but I think if we don't properly understand the goal it doesn't quite get us there.
D&C 84:23
Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

The goal is to seek the face of God. Offer the Lord a broken heart and contrite spirit, continually seek His will, and continually follow His personal commandments for us. Faithfully following these personal commandments is how we become sanctified.

It's to become sanctified.

pancake wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 4:41 pm

NeveR wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 10:25 am

pancake wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 10:08 am Your opinion is entirely unscriptural. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." The only way to know these commandments is by seeking His will. You do not know Christ if all you are doing is following commandments given to you by men!

How did you miss the fact that this (highlighted in red) was my point? You said exactly what I said. Obeying other humans at sacrifice of your own sense of right and wrong is a SIN. Even if those humans claim to be speaking for God.

God's voice is in all of us and any instruction we are given that conflicts with our direct prompting should be ignored.

darknesstolight wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 4:19 pm Pancake she made a point and asked a question to strengthen her point . Her question wasn't directed at your words.

Let me offer a more complete answer.

NeveR wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 9:54 am I think what God asks of us is perhaps the most difficult thing any human can do - follow their OWN conscience wherever it leads. Defy any man-made authority, even those claiming to speak for God, if it conflicts with your inner sense of rightness.

Just my opinion

This is unscriptural. Your own inner sense of rightness is insufficient.

"A willingness to be obedient is part of offering the Lord a broken heart and contrite spirit. We have to be willing to actually follow His commands before He gives them. The whole process of offering the Lord a broken heart and contrite spirit is going to be different for each of us. It is not easy. In many cases we are not ready or able to make the offering because of our misunderstandings. So we need to ask the Lord to give us the experiences we need in order to learn how to make the offering acceptable unto Him. This will require asking the Lord to help us identify and remove all of the idols in our life."

As we continually follow this path of continually offering the Lord a broken heart and contrite spirit, seeking His will, following the personal commandments He gives us, the Lord will gradually bestow greater and greater blessings upon us until we are able to see Him face to face in this life. "And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do."

This is taught everywhere in the scriptures.

Her statement that her point was the same as my statement that "You do not know Christ if all you are doing is following commandments given to you by men!" is an opinion I do not share. The process I have outlined in this post is how to "know Christ" and the things she stated in her post didn't begin to cover this.

darknesstolight wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 4:45 pm I don't care.

EvanLM wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 4:00 pm

darknesstolight wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 2:38 pm

pancake wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 1:04 pm

NeveR wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 11:15 am @pancake - you still agree with me. You just use different words to describe the same thing.

I say "you must follow your conscience". You say "you must follow the path of the Lord".

Those are both the same thing. The Lord speaks to us through our conscience and its promptings. If we ignore that and instead follow the commands of other men, whether they be church leaders or politicians or a boss at work, we are sinning.

We know in our hearts the right path. And when we see it clearly we have been shown the way. If we turn from it because of fear or desire to conform or desire to be approved of by authority, we are sinning.

I have not agreed with the sentiment in any of the posts you have made, regardless as to your belief as to the meaning of my posts vs the meaning of your posts. Perhaps the below response to h_p will help you come to an understanding as to what I mean by offering the Lord a broken heart and contrite spirit.

h_p wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 11:39 am
Obedience is hard, but not nearly as hard as knowing what to be obedient to.

A willingness to be obedient is part of offering the Lord a broken heart and contrite spirit. We have to be willing to actually follow His commands before He gives them. The whole process of offering the Lord a broken heart and contrite spirit is going to be different for each of us. It is not easy. In many cases we are not ready or able to make the offering because of our misunderstandings. So we need to ask the Lord to give us the experiences we need in order to learn how to make the offering acceptable unto Him. This will require asking the Lord to help us identify and remove all of the idols in our life.

Pancake to me you are saying the same thing as NeveR. To me it seems like you can't see she is agreeing with you because she didn't describe it using the same words or symbols as you.

...

disagree. . . no she isn't . . .you just personally like her and support anything she says

darknesstolight wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 4:45 pm
… Two or three witnesses …

NeveR wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 1:11 pm
Well, no it doesn't, because you are being deliberately vague.

Simple question - if you DON'T think we should obey the Lord's promptings in our heart who or what DO you think we should obey?

Are you saying we should obey certain people in positions of authority even if our conscience tells us it is WRONG?

BeNotDeceived wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 6:36 pm

darknesstolight wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 4:45 pm
… Two or three witnesses …

A valid point.

Me photo at march8miracle.org had two witnesses.

There were two scripture references showing when the seventh seal opened.

Today’s purple circle photo was time stamped and geolocated. The third witness was the inclusion of my boarding pass in said OTZ type photo.

The event on March 18th, 2020 had thousands of witnesses and dozens of seismic recordings.

Indeed, witnesses are a good thing.

3*8**

BeNotDeceived wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 6:36 pm

darknesstolight wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 4:45 pm
… Two or three witnesses …

A valid point.

Me photo at march8miracle.org had two witnesses.

There were two scripture references showing when the seventh seal opened.

Today’s purple circle photo was time stamped and geolocated. The third witness was the inclusion of my boarding pass in said OTZ type photo.

The event on March 18th, 2020 had thousands of witnesses and dozens of seismic recordings.

Indeed, witnesses are a good thing.

3*8**

BeNotDeceived wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 6:36 pm

darknesstolight wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 4:45 pm
… Two or three witnesses …

A valid point.

Me photo at march8miracle.org had two witnesses.

There were two scripture references showing when the seventh seal opened.

Today’s purple circle photo was time stamped and geolocated. The third witness was the inclusion of my boarding pass in said OTZ type photo.

The event on March 18th, 2020 had thousands of witnesses and dozens of seismic recordings.

Indeed, witnesses are a good thing.

3*8**

EvanLM wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 3:54 pm

NeveR wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 10:25 am

pancake wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 10:08 am Your opinion is entirely unscriptural. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." The only way to know these commandments is by seeking His will. You do not know Christ if all you are doing is following commandments given to you by men!

How did you miss the fact that this (highlighted in red) was my point? You said exactly what I said. Obeying other humans at sacrifice of your own sense of right and wrong is a SIN. Even if those humans claim to be speaking for God.

God's voice is in all of us and any instruction we are given that conflicts with our direct prompting should be ignored.

that's exactly what the LGBTQ crowd says and the abortion crowd . . .do what YOU feel good about . . . they believe that God's voice IS in them . . .have you ever talked to any of them personally and just been open? . . they are truly waiting for the satanic change and for satan . . who really isn't a bad guy . . to take this world over and get rid of anyone that would follow Christ unquestionly . . . they talk just like you posted . . . maybe they are right

randyps wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 7:44 pm Be careful, the promptings in your heart may not always be from a good source. My wife left mormonism 7yrs ago and started on her own spiritual journey following her hearts desire, she has researched many different sources for light and has found what fits her. Over the years as she "listened" to her heart she has slowly veered away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ even to the point where she received a message from Jesus that the picture of him hanging on our living room wall was not what he looks like and that he does not want to be worshipped so she took it down.

pancake wrote: ↑April 1st, 2022, 12:04 pm Here is a scriptural argument for Joseph returning:

pancake wrote: ↑March 30th, 2022, 5:29 pm

pancake wrote: ↑March 30th, 2022, 2:19 pm There will come a day when the exodus of the children of Israel will be overshadowed by a new exodus:

Jeremiah 23:1-8

1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the Lord.
2 Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the Lord.
3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the Lord.
5 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
8 But, The Lord liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

Zion will need to be redeemed. Joseph Smith is the Lord's servant:

Doctrine & Covenants 103:15-22

15 Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;
16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.
17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.
18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be.
19 Therefore, let not your hearts faint, for I say not unto you as I said unto your fathers: Mine angel shall go up before you, but not my presence.
20 But I say unto you: Mine angels shall go up before you, and also my presence, and in time ye shall possess the goodly land.
21 Verily, verily I say unto you, that my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., is the man to whom I likened the servant to whom the Lord of the vineyard spake in the parable which I have given unto you.
22 Therefore let my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., say unto the strength of my house, my young men and the middle aged—Gather yourselves together unto the land of Zion, upon the land which I have bought with money that has been consecrated unto me.

When was Zion established? When did it fall? When will it be redeemed?

The end time exodus is going to be even more incredible than when Moses parted the red sea. And Joseph is the servant who will lead it.

pancake wrote: ↑March 30th, 2022, 2:19 pm Zion is established by the Lord, under the presidency of His servant, Joseph Smith:

Doctrine & Covenants 101:43-46

43 And now, I will show unto you a parable, that you may know my will concerning the redemption of Zion.
44 A certain nobleman had a spot of land, very choice; and he said unto his servants: Go ye unto my vineyard, even upon this very choice piece of land, and plant twelve olive trees;
45 And set watchmen round about them, and build a tower, that one may overlook the land round about, to be a watchman upon the tower, that mine olive trees may not be broken down when the enemy shall come to spoil and take upon themselves the fruit of my vineyard.
46 Now, the servants of the nobleman went and did as their lord commanded them, and planted the olive trees, and built a hedge round about, and set watchmen, and began to build a tower.

Prophecy of how Zion will fall during the days of Joseph Smith:

Doctrine & Covenants 101:47-54

47 And while they were yet laying the foundation thereof, they began to say among themselves: And what need hath my lord of this tower?
48 And consulted for a long time, saying among themselves: What need hath my lord of this tower, seeing this is a time of peace?
49 Might not this money be given to the exchangers? For there is no need of these things.
50 And while they were at variance one with another they became very slothful, and they hearkened not unto the commandments of their lord.
51 And the enemy came by night, and broke down the hedge; and the servants of the nobleman arose and were affrighted, and fled; and the enemy destroyed their works, and broke down the olive trees.
52 Now, behold, the nobleman, the lord of the vineyard, called upon his servants, and said unto them, Why! what is the cause of this great evil?
53 Ought ye not to have done even as I commanded you, and—after ye had planted the vineyard, and built the hedge round about, and set watchmen upon the walls thereof—built the tower also, and set a watchman upon the tower, and watched for my vineyard, and not have fallen asleep, lest the enemy should come upon you?
54 And behold, the watchman upon the tower would have seen the enemy while he was yet afar off; and then ye could have made ready and kept the enemy from breaking down the hedge thereof, and saved my vineyard from the hands of the destroyer.

Prophecy of how Zion will be redeemed when the Lord's servant, Joseph Smith, returns:

Doctrine & Covenants 101:55-66

55 And the lord of the vineyard said unto one of his servants: Go and gather together the residue of my servants, and take all the strength of mine house, which are my warriors, my young men, and they that are of middle age also among all my servants, who are the strength of mine house, save those only whom I have appointed to tarry;
56 And go ye straightway unto the land of my vineyard, and redeem my vineyard; for it is mine; I have bought it with money.
57 Therefore, get ye straightway unto my land; break down the walls of mine enemies; throw down their tower, and scatter their watchmen.
58 And inasmuch as they gather together against you, avenge me of mine enemies, that by and by I may come with the residue of mine house and possess the land.
59 And the servant said unto his lord: When shall these things be?
60 And he said unto his servant: When I will; go ye straightway, and do all things whatsoever I have commanded you;
61 And this shall be my seal and blessing upon you—a faithful and wise steward in the midst of mine house, a ruler in my kingdom.
62 And his servant went straightway, and did all things whatsoever his lord commanded him; and after many days all things were fulfilled.
63 Again, verily I say unto you, I will show unto you wisdom in me concerning all the churches, inasmuch as they are willing to be guided in a right and proper way for their salvation—
64 That the work of the gathering together of my saints may continue, that I may build them up unto my name upon holy places; for the time of harvest is come, and my word must needs be fulfilled.
65 Therefore, I must gather together my people, according to the parable of the wheat and the tares, that the wheat may be secured in the garners to possess eternal life, and be crowned with celestial glory, when I shall come in the kingdom of my Father to reward every man according as his work shall be;
66 While the tares shall be bound in bundles, and their bands made strong, that they may be burned with unquenchable fire.

The slothful servants were the ones who received the higher priesthood (Lyman Wight, et al.). The polygamists (Willard Richards, John Taylor, Brigham Young, et al.) were the enemy that came by night. The current LDS leaders are the enemy watchmen who will be scattered by Joseph when he has finished his preparations. Right now he is hidden, a polished shaft in the Lord's quiver.

pancake wrote: ↑March 30th, 2022, 2:19 pm Who are the servants?

Doctrine & Covenants 88:74-85

74 And I give unto you, who are the first laborers in this last kingdom, a commandment that you assemble yourselves together, and organize yourselves, and prepare yourselves, and sanctify yourselves; yea, purify your hearts, and cleanse your hands and your feet before me, that I may make you clean;
75 That I may testify unto your Father, and your God, and my God, that you are clean from the blood of this wicked generation; that I may fulfil this promise, this great and last promise, which I have made unto you, when I will.
76 Also, I give unto you a commandment that ye shall continue in prayer and fasting from this time forth.
77 And I give unto you a commandment that you shall teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom.
78 Teach ye diligently and my grace shall attend you, that you may be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel, in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient for you to understand;
79 Of things both in heaven and in the earth, and under the earth; things which have been, things which are, things which must shortly come to pass; things which are at home, things which are abroad; the wars and the perplexities of the nations, and the judgments which are on the land; and a knowledge also of countries and of kingdoms—
80 That ye may be prepared in all things when I shall send you again to magnify the calling whereunto I have called you, and the mission with which I have commissioned you.
81 Behold, I sent you out to testify and warn the people, and it becometh every man who hath been warned to warn his neighbor.
82 Therefore, they are left without excuse, and their sins are upon their own heads.
83 He that seeketh me early shall find me, and shall not be forsaken.
84 Therefore, tarry ye, and labor diligently, that you may be perfected in your ministry to go forth among the Gentiles for the last time, as many as the mouth of the Lord shall name, to bind up the law and seal up the testimony, and to prepare the saints for the hour of judgment which is to come;
85 That their souls may escape the wrath of God, the desolation of abomination which awaits the wicked, both in this world and in the world to come. Verily, I say unto you, let those who are not the first elders continue in the vineyard until the mouth of the Lord shall call them, for their time is not yet come; their garments are not clean from the blood of this generation.

This is still referencing the parable of the vineyard. The redemption of Zion has not yet occurred. So this is talking about our time. These are instructions for the servants who are back on the earth, who will be gathered by Joseph.

pancake wrote: ↑March 30th, 2022, 2:19 pm These servants will understand and give heed to the words of Isaiah:

3 Nephi 23:1

1 And now, behold, I say unto you, that ye ought to search these things. Yea, a commandment I give unto you that ye search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah.

The Book of Mormon was written for us, right now! Nephi wants us to understand our current situation! He was forbidden to write it directly so he quoted Isaiah!

I would humbly ask you to offer the Lord a broken heart and contrite spirit and ask Him if these things are not true. Ask, and ye shall receive; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. Amen.

To me these things make it pretty clear that Joseph is coming back. He has a work to finish. And you do not do work as a ministering spirit or translated being. You can only help the mortals and the mortals have to do the heavy lifting. And Joseph is going to be doing some major heavy lifting.

NeveR wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 9:54 am

pancake wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 8:54 am This is good but I think if we don't properly understand the goal it doesn't quite get us there.
D&C 84:23
Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

The goal is to seek the face of God. Offer the Lord a broken heart and contrite spirit, continually seek His will, and continually follow His personal commandments for us. Faithfully following these personal commandments is how we become sanctified.

If all that is asked of us ultimately is unquestioning obedience then what's the point? What have we learned?

"Don't question, don't think, just obey"?

Isn't that everything that's currently wrong with the world? People abandoning their own conscience and just doing as they're told?

I don't think that's what God wants. I think that's what man-made churches want.

I think what God asks of us is perhaps the most difficult thing any human can do - follow their OWN conscience wherever it leads. Defy any man-made authority, even those claiming to speak for God, if it conflicts with your inner sense of rightness.

Just my opinion

darknesstolight wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 4:45 pm

pancake wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 4:41 pm

NeveR wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 10:25 am

pancake wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 10:08 am Your opinion is entirely unscriptural. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." The only way to know these commandments is by seeking His will. You do not know Christ if all you are doing is following commandments given to you by men!

How did you miss the fact that this (highlighted in red) was my point? You said exactly what I said. Obeying other humans at sacrifice of your own sense of right and wrong is a SIN. Even if those humans claim to be speaking for God.

God's voice is in all of us and any instruction we are given that conflicts with our direct prompting should be ignored.

darknesstolight wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 4:19 pm Pancake she made a point and asked a question to strengthen her point . Her question wasn't directed at your words.

Let me offer a more complete answer.

NeveR wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 9:54 am I think what God asks of us is perhaps the most difficult thing any human can do - follow their OWN conscience wherever it leads. Defy any man-made authority, even those claiming to speak for God, if it conflicts with your inner sense of rightness.

Just my opinion

This is unscriptural. Your own inner sense of rightness is insufficient.

"A willingness to be obedient is part of offering the Lord a broken heart and contrite spirit. We have to be willing to actually follow His commands before He gives them. The whole process of offering the Lord a broken heart and contrite spirit is going to be different for each of us. It is not easy. In many cases we are not ready or able to make the offering because of our misunderstandings. So we need to ask the Lord to give us the experiences we need in order to learn how to make the offering acceptable unto Him. This will require asking the Lord to help us identify and remove all of the idols in our life."

As we continually follow this path of continually offering the Lord a broken heart and contrite spirit, seeking His will, following the personal commandments He gives us, the Lord will gradually bestow greater and greater blessings upon us until we are able to see Him face to face in this life. "And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do."

This is taught everywhere in the scriptures.

Her statement that her point was the same as my statement that "You do not know Christ if all you are doing is following commandments given to you by men!" is an opinion I do not share. The process I have outlined in this post is how to "know Christ" and the things she stated in her post didn't begin to cover this.

I don't care. I told what I see. I still see the same thing but now I see something else too but now I'm also done responding to this issue with you. Two or three witnesses. Do what you wish.

...

ransomme wrote: ↑April 4th, 2022, 7:10 am

darknesstolight wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 4:45 pm

pancake wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 4:41 pm

NeveR wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 10:25 am

How did you miss the fact that this (highlighted in red) was my point? You said exactly what I said. Obeying other humans at sacrifice of your own sense of right and wrong is a SIN. Even if those humans claim to be speaking for God.

God's voice is in all of us and any instruction we are given that conflicts with our direct prompting should be ignored.

darknesstolight wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 4:19 pm Pancake she made a point and asked a question to strengthen her point . Her question wasn't directed at your words.

Let me offer a more complete answer.

NeveR wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2022, 9:54 am I think what God asks of us is perhaps the most difficult thing any human can do - follow their OWN conscience wherever it leads. Defy any man-made authority, even those claiming to speak for God, if it conflicts with your inner sense of rightness.

Just my opinion

This is unscriptural. Your own inner sense of rightness is insufficient.

"A willingness to be obedient is part of offering the Lord a broken heart and contrite spirit. We have to be willing to actually follow His commands before He gives them. The whole process of offering the Lord a broken heart and contrite spirit is going to be different for each of us. It is not easy. In many cases we are not ready or able to make the offering because of our misunderstandings. So we need to ask the Lord to give us the experiences we need in order to learn how to make the offering acceptable unto Him. This will require asking the Lord to help us identify and remove all of the idols in our life."

As we continually follow this path of continually offering the Lord a broken heart and contrite spirit, seeking His will, following the personal commandments He gives us, the Lord will gradually bestow greater and greater blessings upon us until we are able to see Him face to face in this life. "And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do."

This is taught everywhere in the scriptures.

Her statement that her point was the same as my statement that "You do not know Christ if all you are doing is following commandments given to you by men!" is an opinion I do not share. The process I have outlined in this post is how to "know Christ" and the things she stated in her post didn't begin to cover this.

I don't care. I told what I see. I still see the same thing but now I see something else too but now I'm also done responding to this issue with you. Two or three witnesses. Do what you wish.

...

I think you must speak Never or have a gift of tongues, because the combination of symbols, letters, etc that she originally composed did not carry the same meaning in English as what Pancake wrote.

So with EvanLM there are 3 witnesses against.