LDS Freedom Forum

TheDuke wrote: ↑March 29th, 2022, 9:55 pm I too find the balance shifted so quickly, in every environment, church, work, government, etc... It was always wrong to pin the SSA stuff on personal weaknesses and put the person down. But, the pendulum swung in short order to everyone else is wrong and not accepting their perspective and allowing them to push it to everyone (including young children) is hate. It is terrible.

But I don't agree that it is wrong to have a Halloween Party, trick or treat or bribe kids with snacks. Always worked for me. Even last week had a returned student (not married adult) talk about how much fun learning the gospel was in my classes with a bit of sport and sugar.

Also, while I don't participate I don't think it is correct to tell someone that is legally married that anything but straight intercourse if a perversion. I that is your opinion, keep it to yourself. It is nobody's business what happens between a married couple, if it doesn't put one or both down or derogatory, etc... IMO. Stick with sins like unmarried or out-of-wedlock or adultery please.

Jan 5th, 1982. A day that will live in infamy for Mormon married couples across the globe. Spencer W Kimball made his declaration: Married couples having oral sex were unworthy of a temple recommend.

This decree has neither been rescinded nor repudiated. The church has never officially reversed it. It still stands, even if Bishops don't ask about it.

TheDuke wrote: ↑March 29th, 2022, 9:55 pm I too find the balance shifted so quickly, in every environment, church, work, government, etc... It was always wrong to pin the SSA stuff on personal weaknesses and put the person down. But, the pendulum swung in short order to everyone else is wrong and not accepting their perspective and allowing them to push it to everyone (including young children) is hate. It is terrible.

But I don't agree that it is wrong to have a Halloween Party, trick or treat or bribe kids with snacks. Always worked for me. Even last week had a returned student (not married adult) talk about how much fun learning the gospel was in my classes with a bit of sport and sugar.

Also, while I don't participate I don't think it is correct to tell someone that is legally married that anything but straight intercourse if a perversion. I that is your opinion, keep it to yourself. It is nobody's business what happens between a married couple, if it doesn't put one or both down or derogotory, etc... IMO. Stick with sins like unmarried or out-of-wedlock or adultery please.

The only reason the subject came up on my end is because this friend had posted stuff on her facebook page. The first one was to claim the sodom and gomorrah story didn't happen for the reasons we've been led to believe, which was homosexuality. I very much disagreed. The next one had to do with her rainbow pin and support of LGBTQ, and she backed that up with claims that it was normal and natural. I disagreed on that also. She got mad that I chimed in (as she called it) at all.
But maybe I misunderstood facebook, but I thought when we posted things like opinions, especially on controversial subjects, that it invited discussion AND disagreement? I didn't know people posted things on there and expected everyone else to stay silent, or only voice total approval.

When I encounter homosexuals in day to day life, which fortunately, isn't too often, I don't get in their face and jump down their throats when I see them hold hands or show affection. If it bothers me I move.

I think people forget that there are two different marriages that take place when a couple weds. There is the civil part, which God doesn't care about one way or another, but protects the interests of both parties in the event the other dies for various legal purposes. But there is the spiritual part as well. The part that involves religion and being sealed, etc. THAT'S the part that God cares about. It's the part that is ultimately important in the long run. But the govt has wiggled it's way so much into our lives that most people often are no longer able to make the separation of spiritual, and civil aspects of a marriage.

As far as Halloween, I don't really care either way. It doesn't upset me in the least if people don't want to celebrate such a holiday. When I was young, I didn't think of the darkness of it. I just liked the candy, dress up, parties and fun. As I've gotten older, the whole thing just sets wrong with me. I'll always like the candy, but the ghoulishness of it all is off putting.

TheDuke wrote: ↑March 29th, 2022, 9:55 pm I too find the balance shifted so quickly, in every environment, church, work, government, etc... It was always wrong to pin the SSA stuff on personal weaknesses and put the person down. But, the pendulum swung in short order to everyone else is wrong and not accepting their perspective and allowing them to push it to everyone (including young children) is hate. It is terrible.

But I don't agree that it is wrong to have a Halloween Party, trick or treat or bribe kids with snacks. Always worked for me. Even last week had a returned student (not married adult) talk about how much fun learning the gospel was in my classes with a bit of sport and sugar.

Also, while I don't participate I don't think it is correct to tell someone that is legally married that anything but straight intercourse if a perversion. I that is your opinion, keep it to yourself. It is nobody's business what happens between a married couple, if it doesn't put one or both down or derogotory, etc... IMO. Stick with sins like unmarried or out-of-wedlock or adultery please.

Duke you've been in outer darkness too long...(seattle)....we have been conditioned to see homosexuals as normal highly functioning thinking sensitive beings....and the pnw is naturally a very laid back place...easy living...plenty of jobs...lotsa weirdness.....beautiful peaceful scenery......your lens is fogged up a bit....sin is sin...but whateve....lol....i tend to sympathize with the hetero sexual people caught up in normal natural life processes.....

As far as gay sex I never said it wasn’t sin. I said if it is private it isn’t my business. When it becomes public it becomes my business and I decry it. Nothing to do with my morals or where I live, but agency.

As far as sex in marriage there is no scripture that speaks of evil directly of it, leaving that to their own morals. Again in private. To say more or less is unfounded in scripture by extrapolating from public and not married situations, where never are same sex couples married.

TheDuke wrote: ↑March 31st, 2022, 11:21 am As far as gay sex I never said it wasn’t sin. I said if it is private it isn’t my business. When it becomes public it becomes my business and I decry it. Nothing to do with my morals or where I live, but agency.

As far as sex in marriage there is no scripture that speaks of evil directly of it, leaving that to their own morals. Again in private. To say more or less is unfounded in scripture by extrapolating from public and not married situations, where never are same sex couples married.

It matters because some sins are private and stay private. Gay sex left that train station long ago. It may be why it was treated so harshly in the OT. It is a sin that spreads because it is a sin of appetite. Appetites are notoriously hard to control. Also, sharing favored appetites with others makes it more likely that which is craved will be available in greater quantity.

TheDuke wrote: ↑March 31st, 2022, 11:21 am As far as gay sex I never said it wasn’t sin. I said if it is private it isn’t my business. When it becomes public it becomes my business and I decry it. Nothing to do with my morals or where I live, but agency.

As far as sex in marriage there is no scripture that speaks of evil directly of it, leaving that to their own morals. Again in private. To say more or less is unfounded in scripture by extrapolating from public and not married situations, where never are same sex couples married.

How far are you willing to take this "if it is private it isn't my business"?

If a young girl is cutting herself do you say nothing because it's "private"?
If a boy is watching porn do you say nothing because it's "private"?
If a child willingly has sex with an adult do you say nothing because it is "private"?
If an adult does drugs do you say nothing because it's "private"?

This ideology is cowardly and you use the excuse of "it's private" to absolve yourself from actually having to take a stand.

It is disgusting and this false idea is EXACTLY why we are where we are. It is cowardly and not Christian.

As Christians we have an OBLIGATION to teach, preach, and live righteousness whenever and where ever we can. "Private" be damned. There is no such thing as "private". There is only hidden and not hidden.

Those sins that people commit that are hidden ALWAYS manifest themselves. No man, woman or child is an island where they can do whatever they want in the hidden corners of their heart and house and say "it doesn't affect anyone else". That is a lie from the pit of hell. We are all connected. Every single person is part of a larger body or larger person and when one person commits evil and wickedness in their heart it will always affect everyone else.

There is no such thing as a "private" sin, it is only hidden or unhidden. Those sins which are hidden still affect everyone else it just isn't immediately visible.

TheDuke wrote: ↑March 31st, 2022, 11:21 am As far as gay sex I never said it wasn’t sin. I said if it is private it isn’t my business. When it becomes public it becomes my business and I decry it. Nothing to do with my morals or where I live, but agency.

As far as sex in marriage there is no scripture that speaks of evil directly of it, leaving that to their own morals. Again in private. To say more or less is unfounded in scripture by extrapolating from public and not married situations, where never are same sex couples married.

The Scriptures tell you that you are wrong.

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body"

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=KJV

You should read the scriptures. They explicitly mention that each individual is part of a larger body and that each individual member of the body affects the rest of the body and that an individual member can become so wicked that it should be cut off from the larger body.

Your philosophy states that individuals are not part of a larger body; which is so empirically false it boggles the mind that anyone accepts it.

Can we somehow make this thread about polygamy and tithing too? I think it has all the potential of a Super thread, if only we can merge this and about two or three other topics together.

spiritMan wrote: ↑March 31st, 2022, 2:35 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑March 31st, 2022, 11:21 am As far as gay sex I never said it wasn’t sin. I said if it is private it isn’t my business. When it becomes public it becomes my business and I decry it. Nothing to do with my morals or where I live, but agency.

As far as sex in marriage there is no scripture that speaks of evil directly of it, leaving that to their own morals. Again in private. To say more or less is unfounded in scripture by extrapolating from public and not married situations, where never are same sex couples married.

The Scriptures tell you that you are wrong.

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body"

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=KJV

You should read the scriptures. They explicitly mention that each individual is part of a larger body and that each individual member of the body affects the rest of the body and that an individual member can become so wicked that it should be cut off from the larger body.

Your philosophy states that individuals are not part of a larger body; which is so empirically false it boggles the mind that anyone accepts it.

I think this often gets confused.

Converting to Christ is a very individual thing. We have to exercise faith on our own. But by converting we are covenanting to give up our individual wants and desires to become part of the Body of Christ.

People also want to have every action either condemned or sanctified by the scriptures. But commandments point to principles, and those principles are what need to become part of our nature. Does the activity lead us to give up our will to Christ, or does it instead help us indulge our natural man?

This is the measure, and this is why I respect Pres. Kimball. He understood this principle and cautioned against activities that would lead us away from Christ. He often used harsh language, but he was consistent in drawing a line far enough away from the cliff edge that you would never be in any danger of having those indulgences pull you over. Contrast that to what we get today which appears to be a path leading directly towards the cliff edge. I'll take Pres. Kimball's leadership and counsel any day.

I just had this discussion with my wife and she thinks feeling gay and still following the commandments would be the hardest thing ever. I replied that while I think living a chaste and single life is hard, it's no where nearly as hard as some other trials.

What about someone with severe mental illness? What about someone who loses their family to a drunk driver? What about my friend who has normal hormones so he really likes pretty women and wants to get married yet has the mental and emotional age of a nine year old and is permanently in a wheelchair so likely never will. What about someone who is blind?

No, none of those challenges match up. Well, we all see things differently, so that's ok. She still thinks acting on lgtbqiarstuvwxyz+++ tendencies is a sin and doesn't support same sex marriage and for that I'm grateful. But I think that this belief is why so many members of the Church are agreeing with the adversary. He uses our empathy against us.

Once he's gotten us to agree with him on this great evil he gains more power over us until we are blind and see things backwards. When we are in Satan's grasp we think God is asking too much. We forget that God is a God of miracles and also that He will help us carry our burdens if we are humble.

Atrasado wrote: ↑March 31st, 2022, 3:20 pm I just had this discussion with my wife and she thinks being gay and following the commandments would be the hardest thing ever. I replied that while I think it's hard, it's no where nearly as hard as some other trials.

What about someone with severe mental illness? What about someone who loses their family to a drunk driver? What about my friend who has normal hormones so he really likes pretty women and wants to get married yet has the mental and emotional age of a nine year old and is permanently in a wheelchair so likely never will. What about someone who is blind?

No, none of those challenges match up. Well, we all see things differently, so that's ok. She still thinks lgtbqiawxyz+++ is a sin and doesn't support same sex marriage and for that I'm grateful. But I think that this is why so many members of the Church are agreeing with the adversary. They think God is asking too much. They forget, like almost every Church member does that God is a God of miracles and also that He will help us carry our burdens if we are humble.

If you have bought into the false idea that being "gay" means that you are only attracted to the same sex then logically you would think that a life of celibacy and no intimacy would be very difficult. This is what most "good" mormons and christians think about this issue because this is the propaganda that has been delivered to them by society at large and by our church since Prop 8 passed.

But this is false. It is a sexual fetish. Nothing more. Almost all homosexuals in the 90s would tell you the same thing. Being "gay" was cultural. It was a lifestyle and a choice. The culture was about being counter-culture and "gay pride" came from choosing to live that counter-culture lifestyle. Their pride was in their choice. That is why pride parades always had outlandish people dressed in outlandish outfits. An integral part of the culture was sexual freedom without commitments. Every homosexual I knew in the 90s occasionally had sex with members of the opposite sex from their group.

The new propaganda is that it is simply love and that this fetish is an identity. That you can't actually be attracted to anyone of the opposite sex. The new culture is that you are bound to the identity you have been manipulated into choosing. Or worse, that is chosen for you at a young age by progessives in positions authority (like school teachers, etc). And that it is loving to allow these "experts" to abuse your children and ruin their lives.

It isn't any more difficult for someone with this particular sexual fetish to live a happy Christian life than it is for a womanizer or a smoker. They just have to sacrifice those passions and desires instead of nurture them. Just like every other human being who has ever lived.

Trying to live life without arguing over anything. It is hard.

Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.

Serragon wrote: ↑March 31st, 2022, 3:14 pm

spiritMan wrote: ↑March 31st, 2022, 2:35 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑March 31st, 2022, 11:21 am As far as gay sex I never said it wasn’t sin. I said if it is private it isn’t my business. When it becomes public it becomes my business and I decry it. Nothing to do with my morals or where I live, but agency.

As far as sex in marriage there is no scripture that speaks of evil directly of it, leaving that to their own morals. Again in private. To say more or less is unfounded in scripture by extrapolating from public and not married situations, where never are same sex couples married.

The Scriptures tell you that you are wrong.

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body"

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=KJV

You should read the scriptures. They explicitly mention that each individual is part of a larger body and that each individual member of the body affects the rest of the body and that an individual member can become so wicked that it should be cut off from the larger body.

Your philosophy states that individuals are not part of a larger body; which is so empirically false it boggles the mind that anyone accepts it.

I think this often gets confused.

Converting to Christ is a very individual thing. We have to exercise faith on our own. But by converting we are covenanting to give up our individual wants and desires to become part of the Body of Christ.

People also want to have every action either condemned or sanctified by the scriptures. But commandments point to principles, and those principles are what need to become part of our nature. Does the activity lead us to give up our will to Christ, or does it instead help us indulge our natural man?

This is the measure, and this is why I respect Pres. Kimball. He understood this principle and cautioned against activities that would lead us away from Christ. He often used harsh language, but he was consistent in drawing a line far enough away from the cliff edge that you would never be in any danger of having those indulgences pull you over. Contrast that to what we get today which appears to be a path leading directly towards the cliff edge. I'll take Pres. Kimball's leadership and counsel any day.

I completely agree with you. The point I am making is that we are always part of multiple "Bodies".

When we convert we are part of the Body of Christ.
When we move to a new local area we are part of the "Body of LocalTown"
When we move to a state we are part of the "Body of LocalState".
In the nation we are part of the "Body of the Nation"

No man is an island unto himself; no action taken is truly "private". The only "private" action is when a person lives on an island and never interacts with anyone else. There is only hidden or unhidden actions.

This radical individualism leads to utter and absolute chaos because it ignores the very foundational blocks of any functioning society.

Now this doesn't mean that we need to have police going around looking at what hidden actions everyone is taking, it just simply means that to say "it's private so I don't care about it" is a false ideology.

Serragon wrote: ↑March 31st, 2022, 3:36 pm

Atrasado wrote: ↑March 31st, 2022, 3:20 pm I just had this discussion with my wife and she thinks being gay and following the commandments would be the hardest thing ever. I replied that while I think it's hard, it's no where nearly as hard as some other trials.

What about someone with severe mental illness? What about someone who loses their family to a drunk driver? What about my friend who has normal hormones so he really likes pretty women and wants to get married yet has the mental and emotional age of a nine year old and is permanently in a wheelchair so likely never will. What about someone who is blind?

No, none of those challenges match up. Well, we all see things differently, so that's ok. She still thinks lgtbqiawxyz+++ is a sin and doesn't support same sex marriage and for that I'm grateful. But I think that this is why so many members of the Church are agreeing with the adversary. They think God is asking too much. They forget, like almost every Church member does that God is a God of miracles and also that He will help us carry our burdens if we are humble.

If you have bought into the false idea that being "gay" means that you are only attracted to the same sex then logically you would think that a life of celibacy and no intimacy would be very difficult. This is what most "good" mormons and christians think about this issue because this is the propaganda that has been delivered to them by society at large and by our church since Prop 8 passed.

But this is false. It is a sexual fetish. Nothing more. Almost all homosexuals in the 90s would tell you the same thing. Being "gay" was cultural. It was a lifestyle and a choice. The culture was about being counter-culture and "gay pride" came from choosing to live that counter-culture lifestyle. Their pride was in their choice. That is why pride parades always had outlandish people dressed in outlandish outfits. An integral part of the culture was sexual freedom without commitments. Every homosexual I knew in the 90s occasionally had sex with members of the opposite sex from their group.

The new propaganda is that it is simply love and that this fetish is an identity. That you can't actually be attracted to anyone of the opposite sex. The new culture is that you are bound to the identity you have been manipulated into choosing. Or worse, that is chosen for you at a young age by progessives in positions authority (like school teachers, etc). And that it is loving to allow these "experts" to abuse your children and ruin their lives.

It isn't any more difficult for someone with this particular sexual fetish to live a happy Christian life than it is for a womanizer or a smoker. They just have to sacrifice those passions and desires instead of nurture them. Just like every other human being who has ever lived.

Very well said.

Btw I clearly said private and does not injure. So always out is children, hurting, etc…

And I didn’t say it isn’t sin. I said it is private. Like drinking where it can hurt others like drunk driving or anger but where peaceful personal drinking is private matter, too me still wrong. This world gives us personal freedom or agency. The issue is clearly where our agency affects others. If it is private it is agency to sin. If it hurts others, we impinge on their agency and then it is more than personal sin. But still sin.

Seems many on here would bring back prohibition. Or even Shira law!

TheDuke wrote: ↑March 31st, 2022, 5:54 pm Btw I clearly said private and does not injure. So always out is children, hurting, etc…

And I didn’t say it isn’t sin. I said it is private. Like drinking where it can hurt others like drunk driving or anger but where peaceful personal drinking is private matter, too me still wrong. This world gives us personal freedom or agency. The issue is clearly where our agency affects others. If it is private it is agency to sin. If it hurts others, we impinge on their agency and then it is more than personal sin. But still sin.

Seems many on here would bring back prohibition. Or even Shira law!

Public and private condemning of behavior does not equal advocating for force of law.

TheDuke wrote: ↑March 31st, 2022, 5:54 pm Seems many on here would bring back prohibition. Or even Shira law!

You have no idea what is coming. When the backlash from all this degeneracy comes it will make Prohibition look like a walk in the park.

There is no mistake a massive backlash is going to come and when the pendulum swings back it will because individuals like yourself didn't condemn wicked behavior even though the law allowed it to happen.

At this point, you darn right I'd rather have force of law to prevent LGBTQ+ being rammed down everyone's throat, and as this gets more and more degenerate there will be plenty of people who will want the same.

Remember, back in 2015 following the Supreme Court decision that legalized gay marriage in all 50 states, the LDS membership were told by an apostle (standing next to another apostle, in a press conference) that it was okay to support gay marriage on social media and with family and friends, as long as they didn’t denigrate the church. He specified that temple recommends would not be taken from members who support homosexuals getting married.

https://archive.sltrib.com/article.php? ... type=CMSID

It’s no wonder the camel has pretty much settled into the tent.

Lexew1899 wrote: ↑March 29th, 2022, 5:21 am With people like this it’s probably better to just sever ties than pretend you can get along. Unless you want to walk in egg shells around them forever. I’m sure there is something else they would blow up about in the future. The church today isn’t the one we grew up in or joined.

I wouldn’t sever ties. That is their tactic. I would just stay firm, say I love them and support Christ’s clear admonition against these sinful lifestyles. But…they will then probably sever ties with you. Seen lots of that going around.