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I've never read the book, but I do know people that left the church over it.
From the book:
It has also been accused of shaming people and making them feel bad about their sexuality. In a nutshell, wicked people don't like being told they're wicked so they ban anything that makes them feel uncomfy about themselves. There are people who buy this book online in bulk and clear out used bookstores so they can burn as many copies as possible to prevent "mental health crises" for those who might read it.People say that, and it's like they haven't read the book. Yes, the first part makes clear the need for repentance --- that we all are sinners. But especially the last chapters (God will forgive, the Church will forgive, forgive yourself) emphasize hope and grace.
I've read the book three times. It isn't uplifting and equates minor indiscretions with major sins, such as adultery and murder.Rubicon wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 1:55 pmPeople say that, and it's like they haven't read the book. Yes, the first part makes clear the need for repentance --- that we all are sinners. But especially the last chapters (God will forgive, the Church will forgive, forgive yourself) emphasize hope and grace.
The problem is that many people in today's church only want to be told "you are enough." Anything emphasizing godly sorrow and a broken heart and contrite spirit are denounced as causing anxiety, depression, inadequacy, etc. Which is why things like, say, conference talks haven't focused on repentance for some time now.
Eh I don't know about that.... Anecdotal, but here goes:Rubicon wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 1:55 pmPeople say that, and it's like they haven't read the book. Yes, the first part makes clear the need for repentance --- that we all are sinners. But especially the last chapters (God will forgive, the Church will forgive, forgive yourself) emphasize hope and grace.
The problem is that many people in today's church only want to be told "you are enough." Anything emphasizing godly sorrow and a broken heart and contrite spirit are denounced as causing anxiety, depression, inadequacy, etc. Which is why things like, say, conference talks haven't focused on repentance for some time now.
Pres. Kimball's aim may have been tough love, but go too tough and you scar people. I really don't think it is a helpful book.iWriteStuff wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 2:24 pmEh I don't know about that.... Anecdotal, but here goes:Rubicon wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 1:55 pmPeople say that, and it's like they haven't read the book. Yes, the first part makes clear the need for repentance --- that we all are sinners. But especially the last chapters (God will forgive, the Church will forgive, forgive yourself) emphasize hope and grace.
The problem is that many people in today's church only want to be told "you are enough." Anything emphasizing godly sorrow and a broken heart and contrite spirit are denounced as causing anxiety, depression, inadequacy, etc. Which is why things like, say, conference talks haven't focused on repentance for some time now.
When I first gained a testimony of my relationship to God, it was like fire all over. I knew I needed to change, to repent, to come unto Christ, and to do everything I could to show my gratitude for His love. I was so grateful to feel His presence in my life that I would have done anything to maintain that special glow that I felt in my heart and soul. It was truly transformational, and why I went from being a directionless wanderer to wanting to serve a mission and bring that same experience to other people. I read the BofM cover to cover for the first time in a while, then followed up with the rest of the scriptures. Then I went about the house finding anything else I could read which might help me align my will closer to God's.
Then I read Miracle of Forgiveness. I went from feeling like God loved me to believing God would only love me IF I obeyed every commandment, lived a perfect life, and never sinned even in the slightest ever ever again. In short, I went from feeling forgiven to feeling condemned. That developed into a guilt/shame complex that lasted years. Gone was the joy of knowing God loved me, and here to stay was this knowledge that the church and its leaders can judge me and cast me out any time they like and there's little a loving God could do about it. Better still, I internalized that guilt/shame until I judged myself more harshly than anyone else could, God included. In short, I trusted the message (how could I not? A Prophet said it) and not the personal experience I had had with my Heavenly Father.
Now, I realize that was not Spencer Kimball's intent. At least I don't think it was. But that was the effect all the same. It took me a long time to realize that people tend to see God not as He is, but as THEY are. It's not that I don't expect God to judge sins and reproach the sinner; it's that I started to think that God's love was conditioned on us being perfect. I'd forgotten that God loved me BEFORE I repented.
But, as they say, your mileage may vary.
I've never read any of these. Which is worth reading?lundbaek wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 3:21 pm Deseret Book discontinued sale of "Many Are Called But Few Are Chosen", "The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson", declined to carry "A Glorious Standard For all Mankind" and "The Hidden Things of Darkness" by Christopher S. Bentley. I suspect it was to muzzle discussion of those topics.
It hasn't borne good fruit for a significant number of people... whatever his intentions in writing it were. Personally speaking, I did not find it uplifting or constructive in dealing with everyday issues which I, and almost everyone else, face.
I think a lot of it is the setting it was written in as well (sexual revolution, upending of mores, etc.). I think it was reactionary to that milieu.Atrasado wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 3:34 pm I think the comment that our views on God are largely based on our own personality to be spot on. President Kimball was a very good and loving person, I think, but he was EXTREMELY conscientious which might indicate a degree of neuroticism. I feel this is reflected in the book he wrote. That being said, I don't think he intended that. I believe he just wanted to help.
It doesn't say masturbation is next to murder.Niemand wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 1:24 pm Miracle of Forgiveness doesn't merit its title. If you read it, it's a wonder if anyone gets forgiven at all.
Yes, as someone said, it contains such joys as masturbation being next to murder and turning you gay. Considering how many teenage boys do that, you'd think almost all men would grow up to become murderous queens. I think it constitutes a sin, but next to murder? No. Whole different ballgame.
This right here, perfectly said. That book feels like a parent screaming at a 4 year-old child who falls off the bike while learning to ride it. It certainly doesn't reflect the love, mercy, long-suffering, tolerant Savior who looked at the adulteress and asked "Where are your accusers?"iWriteStuff wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 2:24 pmEh I don't know about that.... Anecdotal, but here goes:Rubicon wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 1:55 pmPeople say that, and it's like they haven't read the book. Yes, the first part makes clear the need for repentance --- that we all are sinners. But especially the last chapters (God will forgive, the Church will forgive, forgive yourself) emphasize hope and grace.
The problem is that many people in today's church only want to be told "you are enough." Anything emphasizing godly sorrow and a broken heart and contrite spirit are denounced as causing anxiety, depression, inadequacy, etc. Which is why things like, say, conference talks haven't focused on repentance for some time now.
When I first gained a testimony of my relationship to God, it was like fire all over. I knew I needed to change, to repent, to come unto Christ, and to do everything I could to show my gratitude for His love. I was so grateful to feel His presence in my life that I would have done anything to maintain that special glow that I felt in my heart and soul. It was truly transformational, and why I went from being a directionless wanderer to wanting to serve a mission and bring that same experience to other people. I read the BofM cover to cover for the first time in a while, then followed up with the rest of the scriptures. Then I went about the house finding anything else I could read which might help me align my will closer to God's.
Then I read Miracle of Forgiveness. I went from feeling like God loved me to believing God would only love me IF I obeyed every commandment, lived a perfect life, and never sinned even in the slightest ever ever again. In short, I went from feeling forgiven to feeling condemned. That developed into a guilt/shame complex that lasted years. Gone was the joy of knowing God loved me, and here to stay was this knowledge that the church and its leaders can judge me and cast me out any time they like and there's little a loving God could do about it. Better still, I internalized that guilt/shame until I judged myself more harshly than anyone else could, God included. In short, I trusted the message (how could I not? A Prophet said it) and not the personal experience I had had with my Heavenly Father.
Now, I realize that was not Spencer Kimball's intent. At least I don't think it was. But that was the effect all the same. It took me a long time to realize that people tend to see God not as He is, but as THEY are. It's not that I don't expect God to judge sins and reproach the sinner; it's that I started to think that God's love was conditioned on us being perfect. I'd forgotten that God loved me BEFORE I repented.
But, as they say, your mileage may vary.
It seems increasingly that the book is more of a mirror reflecting the reader/commenter than anything else. A Rorschach test . . .LDS Physician wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 5:18 pm
This right here, perfectly said. That book feels like a parent screaming at a 4 year-old child who falls off the bike while learning to ride it. It certainly doesn't reflect the love, mercy, long-suffering, tolerant Savior who looked at the adulteress and asked "Where are your accusers?"
Guess I'm an evil sinner whom God hates ... even my "minor" sins equate to adultery and murder. Fire, hell, brimstone, and gnashing of teeth await me.Rubicon wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 5:23 pmIt seems increasingly that the book is more of a mirror reflecting the reader/commenter than anything else. A Rorschach test . . .LDS Physician wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 5:18 pm
This right here, perfectly said. That book feels like a parent screaming at a 4 year-old child who falls off the bike while learning to ride it. It certainly doesn't reflect the love, mercy, long-suffering, tolerant Savior who looked at the adulteress and asked "Where are your accusers?"
A great many people didn't come away from it with anything like the feeling of "a parent screaming at a 4 year-old child who falls off the bike while learning to ride it."
So when someone calls you out on your crap you then immediately cast the blame on that person instead on being humble and saying, yes you are correct?Niemand wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 2:07 pmI've read the book three times. It isn't uplifting and equates minor indiscretions with major sins, such as adultery and murder.Rubicon wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 1:55 pmPeople say that, and it's like they haven't read the book. Yes, the first part makes clear the need for repentance --- that we all are sinners. But especially the last chapters (God will forgive, the Church will forgive, forgive yourself) emphasize hope and grace.
The problem is that many people in today's church only want to be told "you are enough." Anything emphasizing godly sorrow and a broken heart and contrite spirit are denounced as causing anxiety, depression, inadequacy, etc. Which is why things like, say, conference talks haven't focused on repentance for some time now.
Yes, those things can create anxiety, depression and inadequacy. If I had used that stupid book as a manual, I would have given up on church years ago.
I'm well aware what repentance is, but the wrong type of rebuke can be counterproductive. I remember going to a prayer meeting many years ago, before I joined the LDS. It went really well, and I remarked on it afterwards, and the pastor said to me something like, "It would have gone even better if you hadn't been late." I think I was five minutes late in the door. The result of that was that I felt bad for the rest of the evening and had no desire to go back to it. Should I have been earlier? Probably. Did he need to speak to me like that? No. As a result of that (and other things, like him swearing in front of children) I decided to go elsewhere.
Clearly you don't read the scriptures then, bc the scriptures are way harsher than Kimbell.iWriteStuff wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 2:24 pmEh I don't know about that.... Anecdotal, but here goes:Rubicon wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 1:55 pmPeople say that, and it's like they haven't read the book. Yes, the first part makes clear the need for repentance --- that we all are sinners. But especially the last chapters (God will forgive, the Church will forgive, forgive yourself) emphasize hope and grace.
The problem is that many people in today's church only want to be told "you are enough." Anything emphasizing godly sorrow and a broken heart and contrite spirit are denounced as causing anxiety, depression, inadequacy, etc. Which is why things like, say, conference talks haven't focused on repentance for some time now.
When I first gained a testimony of my relationship to God, it was like fire all over. I knew I needed to change, to repent, to come unto Christ, and to do everything I could to show my gratitude for His love. I was so grateful to feel His presence in my life that I would have done anything to maintain that special glow that I felt in my heart and soul. It was truly transformational, and why I went from being a directionless wanderer to wanting to serve a mission and bring that same experience to other people. I read the BofM cover to cover for the first time in a while, then followed up with the rest of the scriptures. Then I went about the house finding anything else I could read which might help me align my will closer to God's.
Then I read Miracle of Forgiveness. I went from feeling like God loved me to believing God would only love me IF I obeyed every commandment, lived a perfect life, and never sinned even in the slightest ever ever again. In short, I went from feeling forgiven to feeling condemned. That developed into a guilt/shame complex that lasted years. Gone was the joy of knowing God loved me, and here to stay was this knowledge that the church and its leaders can judge me and cast me out any time they like and there's little a loving God could do about it. Better still, I internalized that guilt/shame until I judged myself more harshly than anyone else could, God included. In short, I trusted the message (how could I not? A Prophet said it) and not the personal experience I had had with my Heavenly Father.
Now, I realize that was not Spencer Kimball's intent. At least I don't think it was. But that was the effect all the same. It took me a long time to realize that people tend to see God not as He is, but as THEY are. It's not that I don't expect God to judge sins and reproach the sinner; it's that I started to think that God's love was conditioned on us being perfect. I'd forgotten that God loved me BEFORE I repented.
But, as they say, your mileage may vary.
It's like you guys never read the scriptures. They are full of ripping people a new one....but if it comes from a modern guy that person is bad... SMH no wonder accept queers at the least bit of tough talk people fly to pieces.LDS Physician wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 5:27 pmGuess I'm an evil sinner whom God hates ... even my "minor" sins equate to adultery and murder. Fire, hell, brimstone, and gnashing of teeth await me.Rubicon wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 5:23 pmIt seems increasingly that the book is more of a mirror reflecting the reader/commenter than anything else. A Rorschach test . . .LDS Physician wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 5:18 pm
This right here, perfectly said. That book feels like a parent screaming at a 4 year-old child who falls off the bike while learning to ride it. It certainly doesn't reflect the love, mercy, long-suffering, tolerant Savior who looked at the adulteress and asked "Where are your accusers?"
A great many people didn't come away from it with anything like the feeling of "a parent screaming at a 4 year-old child who falls off the bike while learning to ride it."
What was it like to read it and not feel guilt, shame, or fear?