LDS Freedom Forum

This is a serious question. Are the brethren uncomfortable with people who are raising their families on $40,000-$50,000 a year? Are they more likely to favor the rich and upper middle class? I would propose they are.

Less tithing, less importance.

They will favor those who support them, financially and otherwise.

Christianlee wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 9:44 am This is a serious question. Are the brethren uncomfortable with people who are raising their families on $40,000-$50,000 a year? Are they more likely to favor the rich and upper middle class? I would propose they are.

I think yes by the way leadership positions are filled. Stake presidents and mission presidents are typically wealthy.

Who was the last blue-collar Apostle?

Who was the last that was not wealthy?

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 10:08 am Who was the last blue-collar Apostle?

Who was the last that was not wealthy?

Come on Info you know that they are more righteous that's why they have more $lessings.

Besides what would the bio's look like if they read "he was a humble carpenter by trade, he perfected the 45* cut and could plumb a wall with the best of them"

Vision wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 10:22 am
Besides what would the bio's look like if they read "he was a humble carpenter by trade, he perfected the 45* cut and could plumb a wall with the best of them"

Exactly. *gasp* Carpenters as institutional heads... you don't get any respect and honor from the world that way.

Yes and no. What I have witnessed in life..not just with COPB and local lds but in many walks of like....Upper class white people love to help lower class people with brown skin.

But they resent and loath lower class whites.

They also have disgust for poor people of any color who are content being poor. Poor people are supposed to be asking them for help and hold them in high regard.

Besides what would the bio's look like if they read "he was a humble carpenter by trade, he perfected the 45* cut and could plumb a wall with the best of them"

Apologies for those who have heard me tell this previously.

A dear friend's husband was transferred to a wealthy Ward in Omaha, Nebraska several decades past. It came up in a Gospel Doctrine class that Jesus could NOT have been 'a humble carpenter'. He had to have been a General Contractor, otherwise how could he have afforded to fulfill His three year mission.

They were serious....

Christianlee wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 9:44 am This is a serious question. Are the brethren uncomfortable with people who are raising their families on $40,000-$50,000 a year? Are they more likely to favor the rich and upper middle class? I would propose they are.

I would say people in this pay bracket are probably the backbone of stake leadership in Scotland. A few earn more of course.

We do have a number of doctors, lawyers, actuaries etc among leadership here in Scotland, probably the same situation elsewhere in the UK. But we have few members who are at the top rung od these professions, and I'm yet to meet an architect or a high paid engineer. (Probably some in Aberdeen in the oil industry.)

You're very unlikely to find a dust man (garbage collector), plumber, lorry driver, or McDonalds employee among them although we have a few of those around.

Our main recruitment here tends to be from the working class and lower middle class. Also understand that our class system here is not exclusively economically based (some other UK board members may back me up on this), but we've hardly got much in the way of impoverished aristocracy among us either.

buffalo_girl wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 2:22 pm

Besides what would the bio's look like if they read "he was a humble carpenter by trade, he perfected the 45* cut and could plumb a wall with the best of them"

Apologies for those who have heard me tell this previously.

A dear friend's husband was transferred to a wealthy Ward in Omaha, Nebraska several decades past. It came up in a Gospel Doctrine class that Jesus could NOT have been 'a humble carpenter'. He had to have been a General Contractor, otherwise how could he have afforded to fulfill His three year mission.

They were serious....

They are half right.

Where they are right is that carpentry was considered a skilled occupation then, and a craft, rather than just an unskilled job. You needed training, and your tools would have been expensive and passed down. This notion has been lost because of industrialisation.

So in that sense, while it makes Jesus lower status than a lawyer or even some master craftsmen, it would put him about the same status as a weaver or tailor.

So, no, he wasn't on the bottom rung of society. He was a skilled labourer. I've worked on construction sites myself, and such people are still in demand.

But on the other hand, I've heard it said that because Jesus could read Hebrew, he must have been rich. That isn't true. Most Jews were taught to read it, as they are today. Literacy was much higher among Jews than Romans.

So, no, he wasn't on the bottom rung of society. He was a skilled labourer. I've worked on construction sites myself, and such people are still in demand.

Oh, I agree that he was a skilled craftsman who knew how to use the tools of his craft!

In the US, a General Contractor oversees entire construction projects - from single custom homes to urban development projects. A General Contractor plans how that project will be undertaken, the actual physical work being done by various skilled sub-contractors. It's an executive position over several levels of management and labor.

Grind upon the faces of the poor
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hrBM7FxPD ... e=youtu.be
Great video

buffalo_girl wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 2:51 pm

So, no, he wasn't on the bottom rung of society. He was a skilled labourer. I've worked on construction sites myself, and such people are still in demand.

Oh, I agree that he was a skilled craftsman who knew how to use the tools of his craft!

In the US, a General Contractor oversees entire construction projects - from single custom homes to urban development projects. A General Contractor plans how that project will be undertaken, the actual physical work being done by various skilled sub-contractors. It's an executive position over several levels of management and labor.

I knew roughly what you meant. No, I don't agree with that, but Jesus could have easily had apprentices working under him etc. There are obviously various levels of carpentry too, right from the people who make basic items like boxes up to those who made items for palaces. A cartwright would fall somewhere in the middle, and i believe Jesus would be below that.

If he had apprentices, he could easily have left them in the workshop when he went on his mission.

I suspect he mainly made things like furniture, doors, gates etc. To do that he would need to know joints, as nails were expensive and that would save on them.

One point folk overlook is that carpenters were often surgeons too - "sawbones", so while maybe not making medicines etc, he may have been involved in sawing off limbs etc in one or two cases. (Or not, given Jesus' abilities in the Gospels)

Jesus' death was also on a piece of wood, so that's significant too.

Dusty Wanderer wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 12:32 pm

Vision wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 10:22 am
Besides what would the bio's look like if they read "he was a humble carpenter by trade, he perfected the 45* cut and could plumb a wall with the best of them"

Exactly. *gasp* Carpenters as institutional heads... you don't get any respect and honor from the world that way.

Well, there was that one guy who did it...

Vision wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 10:22 am

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 10:08 am Who was the last blue-collar Apostle?

Who was the last that was not wealthy?

Come on Info you know that they are more righteous that's why they have more $lessings.

Besides what would the bio's look like if they read "he was a humble carpenter by trade, he perfected the 45* cut and could plumb a wall with the best of them"

"
Besides what would the bio's look like if they read "he was a humble carpenter by trade,"
-- OUCH!

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 10:08 am Who was the last blue-collar Apostle?

Who was the last that was not wealthy?

The last non-wealthy apostle is probably the last apostle: Elder Soares.

They are condescending, but it is not intentional.

They are aristocrats who have spent their entire lives valuing people for their titles, credentials, wealth/achievements. They don't realize that they are elitist or condescending. In fact, most would tell you that they relate very well with the comman man and are very empathetic towards his plight.

This is why our female leaders are career women instead of mothers and wives. This is why every conference talk feels like it was written for primary kids. This is why we push diversity. This is why we signed on to Agenda 2030. This is why we promote the opinions of government officials and establishment doctors over the actual science and data.

All of it comes from an elitist view that the common man and the minority cannot govern themselves and need the more intelligent and wise aristocrats to lead, guide, and make decisions. And I really doubt that our leaders are even aware of it.

There is info out there that Jesus was more of a mason (stone worker) than a carpenter (wood worker). Poor translations and all of that...

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 3:37 pm

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 10:08 am Who was the last blue-collar Apostle?

Who was the last that was not wealthy?

The last non-wealthy apostle is probably the last apostle: Elder Soares.

White collar, and certainly not conventionally working class. However, I also suspect the church has been desperate to get a few more Latinos into higher roles, and Soares seems to have fulfilled an obedient role

I was just reading up on N. Eldon Tanner. It seems he started off in a lower middle class/upper working class role, running a store and butchers... then getting involved in education and a moderately successful career in politics. He certainly had life experience and not as an academic or high ranking businesswoman, although his success in politics probably helped him up the social scale

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 3:44 pm There is info out there that Jesus was more of a mason (stone worker) than a carpenter (wood worker). Poor translations and all of that...

Both of these are relevant in regard to Jesus' teachings and mission. He did refer to the cornerstone, Peter as the rock etc. However, he also died on a cross of wood, which i'm afraid trumps the mason argument. (Although I'm sure the funny handshake club says otherwise.)

buffalo_girl wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 2:22 pm

Besides what would the bio's look like if they read "he was a humble carpenter by trade, he perfected the 45* cut and could plumb a wall with the best of them"

Apologies for those who have heard me tell this previously.

A dear friend's husband was transferred to a wealthy Ward in Omaha, Nebraska several decades past. It came up in a Gospel Doctrine class that Jesus could NOT have been 'a humble carpenter'. He had to have been a General Contractor, otherwise how could he have afforded to fulfill His three year mission.

They were serious....

The thing is, we don't know that Jesus was a carpenter. Joseph was, but that doesn't mean he followed the same profession. I think it's an unjustified assumption.
I don't know why, but I don't personally think he was.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 3:53 pm

buffalo_girl wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 2:22 pm

Besides what would the bio's look like if they read "he was a humble carpenter by trade, he perfected the 45* cut and could plumb a wall with the best of them"

Apologies for those who have heard me tell this previously.

A dear friend's husband was transferred to a wealthy Ward in Omaha, Nebraska several decades past. It came up in a Gospel Doctrine class that Jesus could NOT have been 'a humble carpenter'. He had to have been a General Contractor, otherwise how could he have afforded to fulfill His three year mission.

They were serious....

The thing is, we don't know that Jesus was a carpenter. Joseph was, but that doesn't mean he followed the same profession. I think it's an unjustified assumption.
I don't know why, but I don't personally think he was.

Good point! My comment should have said *Joseph* not Jesus!

Adam & Eve were farmers. I'm not sure how that can be made to look more exulted a 'profession' than what it is. I don't think they were raising GMO corn or Thoroughbred horses. Cain went off the rails when he desired to exult himself above his brother's station by accumulating that brother's wealth for himself.

Subsequent prophets spent a lot of time around & caring for grazing animals in large numbers - lots of manure which enriched the soil and probably served as fuel. Not an exulted profession either. Lots of sweat, dirt, vigilance, and endurance. No cocktail parties, networking, economic or political forums. Still...they became a powerful influence in their own time and through the millennia.

Nimrod was a warlord. He built a mighty city and a religion based upon war. He is still attributed with building the Tower of Babel and putting to work those beneath him to fulfill his vision. A General Contractor of the first order!

I'm ok with subsistence living. Whatever happened to the concept of 'without purse or scrip'?

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 10:08 am Who was the last blue-collar Apostle?

Who was the last that was not wealthy?

Ballard . . .I think he is the last smith, too

Vision wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 10:22 am

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 10:08 am Who was the last blue-collar Apostle?

Who was the last that was not wealthy?

Come on Info you know that they are more righteous that's why they have more $lessings.

Besides what would the bio's look like if they read "he was a humble carpenter by trade, he perfected the 45* cut and could plumb a wall with the best of them"

funny you should say that . . .they pay my friend's husband to remodel the tabernacle in Logan and the tabernacle in Vernal to a temple and pay him very little compared to what he would earn with his historical knowledge and talents in the real world . . . . then , since his wages are low then they hire him to remodel their personal basements, etc. . . instead of paying the wages that he should honestly earn . . .

I have anoither friend that was so mad at Bednar . . . he wanted some property for BYU Idaho . . .so in the meeting where he should have been brokering a deal for purchase of the land, then he told my friend and the other property owners that they should donate their land to the church . . .as much land as the church "needed" . . .

I hate to rail the brethren too much cuz I KNOW a lot of stories that put them in a bad "light" hehehehehahah