LDS Freedom Forum

Sad that the only evidence shown for the frankly, silly question asked. I say silly because it wasn't tied to something informative, like a statement to discuss that may lead one to believe in the OP, or something, but it is LDS FF members and their opinions about people they have never met or likely know anyone that has met or at-least more properly know them.

Then showing some measly potential networth and calling that rich? We know one apostle is now around $1B when his company in Logan went public, I will say that is rich. but, I'm pretty well coming to the understanding that most on this forum are down right poor and seem a bit jealous about it. At least that is how the comments come across. Two things first are the leaders treated like rich, no more like average executives. I guess most here haven't been around rich. I don't mean upper middle class, I mean rich. Rich people have private jets, numerous mansions, drive exotic cars (more than 5-6 of them) in garages that hold 15-20 cars. I'm not sure I've met one rich person without a 80' or better yacht, obviously handmade suits, etc... I've seen none of that in LDS leaders, ever. But, they don't walk around poor, torn clothes, old rotten cars (like mine), and don't live in terrible places, likely eat average restaurant meals (not fast food) on business and stay at the Marriott (like I always did) in the executive suites (life time members platinum for sure). Maybe I just don't care enough about things and what others have or don't have, it just isn't as important as it appears to most of the folks on this thread. I guess I'm not enough in the world?

Here is a little bit of what I think plays a part in the calling of members to serve on the local levels.

1. People that make more money usually have more resources and the ability to juggle their time, ideal for the beginning stages of serving in the church.

2. People that have white collar jobs as opposed to blue collar jobs might have a little more energy at the end of the day/week to serve in church callings.

The higher the calling (SP/Bishop) the more time and energy it require thus narrowing the field of candidates.

Christianlee wrote: ↑March 25th, 2022, 3:19 am The question wasn’t, “Are the leaders of the church rich and successful?” The question was do they look down on those who aren’t? Do they see them as less worthy of respect?

I dont think so.

In mormon culture it is common for the man to have the career and woman to be a stay-at-home wife/mom.
He can be a $200k yr earner while she makes $0 but he knows that when he comes home everyday she is the spiritual giant in the relationship.
A half way decent and righteous mormon man is humble enough to know that respect for others, within the gospel, is based on spiritual factors not financial success.

James the brother of Jesus said .......
"God called poor men whoms only wealth was their faith"

The Saviours Apostles were poor men from a farming province, what little they had they left behind, they were uneducated men, but they had "FAITH"
There was an educated Apostle in the original 12 and that was Judas, whom was a Scribe, a scholar, a man of letters.
He the learned , affluent Apostle was the one that betrayed Jesus.

The New testament never gives the impression that Rich men and the Learned would sit in the seats of honor and lead the folds of Christ .............
In the world its the rich and the educated that rule, it ought not to be that way in the christian church............

"But Jesus called them aside and said,
“You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them,
and their superiors exercise authority over them.
It shall not be this way among you.
Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,
and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave—
just as the Son of Man did not come to be served,
but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.”

I'm not a fan of the Brethren, and what they did in their personal life is not my concern. I am concerned about them receiving a paycheck and other "perks" all the while teaching prosperity gospel principles to those less fortunate than themselves.

Of all the preposterous assumptions of humanity over humanity, nothing exceeds most of the criticisms made on the habits of the poor by the well-housed, well- warmed, and well-fed.” ― Herman Melville

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 10:08 am Who was the last blue-collar Apostle?

Who was the last that was not wealthy?

Well, how many blue collar apostles in the days of Joseph Smith?

Any poor apostles since his days?

Any farmers/plumbers in the original 12 in Jerusalem?

Most men just wouldn't have the capability to be an apostle now, as things are.

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 3:37 pm

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 10:08 am Who was the last blue-collar Apostle?

Who was the last that was not wealthy?

The last non-wealthy apostle is probably the last apostle: Elder Soares.

You really think he is unwealthy?

JohnnyL wrote: ↑March 26th, 2022, 8:48 am

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 3:37 pm

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 10:08 am Who was the last blue-collar Apostle?

Who was the last that was not wealthy?

The last non-wealthy apostle is probably the last apostle: Elder Soares.

You really think he is unwealthy?

Relative to the American idea of wealth, yes.

TheChristian wrote: ↑March 26th, 2022, 7:42 am James the brother of Jesus said .......
"God called poor men whoms only wealth was their faith"

The Saviours Apostles were poor men from a farming province, what little they had they left behind, they were uneducated men, but they had "FAITH"
There was an educated Apostle in the original 12 and that was Judas, whom was a Scribe, a scholar, a man of letters.
He the learned , affluent Apostle was the one that betrayed Jesus.

The New testament never gives the impression that Rich men and the Learned would sit in the seats of honor and lead the folds of Christ .............
In the world its the rich and the educated that rule, it ought not to be that way in the christian church............

"But Jesus called them aside and said,
“You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them,
and their superiors exercise authority over them.
It shall not be this way among you.
Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,
and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave—
just as the Son of Man did not come to be served,
but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.”

Publicans like Matthew were wealthy and generally well educated.

Although not an original apostle, physicians like Luke were well educated and generally wealthy.

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 26th, 2022, 8:49 am

JohnnyL wrote: ↑March 26th, 2022, 8:48 am

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 3:37 pm

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 10:08 am Who was the last blue-collar Apostle?

Who was the last that was not wealthy?

The last non-wealthy apostle is probably the last apostle: Elder Soares.

You really think he is unwealthy?

Relative to the American idea of wealth, yes.

Based on...? Bank accounts, jobs/ job descriptions, etc.?

JohnnyL wrote: ↑March 26th, 2022, 8:52 am

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 26th, 2022, 8:49 am

JohnnyL wrote: ↑March 26th, 2022, 8:48 am

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 3:37 pm

The last non-wealthy apostle is probably the last apostle: Elder Soares.

You really think he is unwealthy?

Relative to the American idea of wealth, yes.

Based on...? Bank accounts, jobs/ job descriptions, etc.?

Based on his job and country of origin.

This is an interesting question considering what I've noticed over the past years since joining the church. Back when our family didn't even make that much, and were living literally off of my daughters social security of $800 per month, we didn't know at some points if we were going to be able to even drive our oldest daughter to seminary. Sometimes we could get a ride to take her and sometimes we couldn't. More then once we were stuck at home with an empty gas tank. It was BAD. Also, we had to come up with the money the youth groups would ask for so she could go to camp, the trip to Nauvoo, etc. I remember commenting either to my husband or myself (I can't remember) about how the church certainly isn't a church for poor people.
I'm not altogether sure why I thought that considering the church paid many of our bills, and paid for Christmas one year. But something had happened that made me think that several times. I think what I was thinking was that they automatically tend to assume folks will have enough to spend what they ask on various activities.

JohnnyL wrote: ↑March 26th, 2022, 8:44 am

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 10:08 am Who was the last blue-collar Apostle?

Who was the last that was not wealthy?

Well, how many blue collar apostles in the days of Joseph Smith?

Any poor apostles since his days?

Any farmers/plumbers in the original 12 in Jerusalem?

Most men just wouldn't have the capability to be an apostle now, as things are.

Bingo.

Someone might possess the gifts of an Apostle, yet not be called as one, precisely because they would be in no condition to handle the things an Apostle has to handle on day-to-day business.

Jealousy? no thanks.

I can definitively say that this part about the Stake President being selected by the Bishops and the High Councilmen is NOT true. At least, not true where I live.

There was an ex Area Seventy where I live. His occupation? Elementary Public School Teacher. He wasn't swimming in riches.

The last four stake presidents: Insurance Agent, Craftsman, Secondary School Teacher, Elementary School Teacher (the same guy that became a Seventy; he was the first stake president).

Subcomandante wrote: ↑March 26th, 2022, 9:12 am

JohnnyL wrote: ↑March 26th, 2022, 8:44 am

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 10:08 am Who was the last blue-collar Apostle?

Who was the last that was not wealthy?

Well, how many blue collar apostles in the days of Joseph Smith?

Any poor apostles since his days?

Any farmers/plumbers in the original 12 in Jerusalem?

Most men just wouldn't have the capability to be an apostle now, as things are.

Bingo.

Someone might possess the gifts of an Apostle, yet not be called as one, precisely because they would be in no condition to handle the things an Apostle has to handle on day-to-day business.

And this is what Moroni, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Amos, and many other actual prophets didn't like about what the church would be in the last days.

Subcomandante wrote: ↑March 26th, 2022, 9:12 am

JohnnyL wrote: ↑March 26th, 2022, 8:44 am

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 10:08 am Who was the last blue-collar Apostle?

Who was the last that was not wealthy?

Well, how many blue collar apostles in the days of Joseph Smith?

Any poor apostles since his days?

Any farmers/plumbers in the original 12 in Jerusalem?

Most men just wouldn't have the capability to be an apostle now, as things are.

Bingo.

Someone might possess the gifts of an Apostle, yet not be called as one, precisely because they would be in no condition to handle the things an Apostle has to handle on day-to-day business.

If God chose a poor man whoms only wealth was his faith, then miracles will happen, God will equip that poor man with all the wisdom, knowlegde and power that is needed..............
All that poor man needs is simple faith and hence the Spirit of God shall be with him to accomplish all things................

buffalo_girl wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 2:22 pm

Besides what would the bio's look like if they read "he was a humble carpenter by trade, he perfected the 45* cut and could plumb a wall with the best of them"

Apologies for those who have heard me tell this previously.

A dear friend's husband was transferred to a wealthy Ward in Omaha, Nebraska several decades past. It came up in a Gospel Doctrine class that Jesus could NOT have been 'a humble carpenter'. He had to have been a General Contractor, otherwise how could he have afforded to fulfill His three year mission.

They were serious....

Mindfields wrote: ↑March 26th, 2022, 7:50 am I'm not a fan of the Brethren, and what they did in their personal life is not my concern. I am concerned about them receiving a paycheck and other "perks" all the while teaching prosperity gospel principles to those less fortunate than themselves.

now you're saying it right . . . again, go back over their talks and try to figure out who their audience is taht they are addressing

or . . who they BELIEVE their audience is . . . they look down

money and schmoozing . . I personally KNOW friends and family that his has worked with. . . . . who purposely did this to get leadership positions and . . . bingo. . .they got leadership positions . . .

btw the local leaders look down on their congregations, too . . . I have heard them talk. . . . a lot . . . .sad

I have to think that there are a few sincere and caring leaders . . . but . . . most . . . . .umm . . . uh . . .same "look down" from members of the tabernacle choir, etc. . .towards the general low income saints . . . there really is an idea among our leaders . . . that you should never need help because God has blessed THEM so well . . .

I taught a man who was baptized and his partriarchal blessing says that he will never have a lot of money . . . however, another part said that he would use his priesthood to raise the dead . .

. Elder Hales said in a talk, about 10 years ago, that you would need wealth in order to be a leader in the church . . . can't remember the subject of the talk and whether it was priesthood or GC. . .

Christ said that we will always have the poor with us . . . so that means that he had determined that some of us will be poor . . .like some of us will be victims to incest . . .or abuse. . . or have a baby die of SIDS . . or lose a spouse or a parent too early in life . . . . etc.

some of these trials fall under the category of clean trials or dirty trials . . .we love to help the person who has a baby die of SIDS but do not desire to help the woman who has been abused by a priesthood holder. . . or someone who is poor . . .nor do we like tottalk about it. . .

but Jesus set the world up in this way . . .some would be victims to death, poverty, illness, abuse, etc. . . so that all could learn from it and not have to be a victim to learn it. . . .

but our WORLD teaches something different . . that we should never have to suffer or see someone struggle . . . then stupid as this is , they teach the victim hood which is opposite, . . . .anyway I deviate

we are supposed to help our fellowman and never tire of their need for our help if we are in a position to do that . . . the reason that we would help is because we are the children of Christ . . .
we would heal the sick, feed and clothe the poor, cast out devils or whatever it takes cuz we are the children of God . . .

So Jesus allows all of these things, including poverty to remain . . . always with us . . .so we can gain spiritual and moral strength in our never tiring help . . . .

the biggest PROBLEM is that the world has taught us that we should have the government help or that this few group of people can tell us what is best . . .or it is hopleless to give money to the poor . . . or the church has a fast fund . . . we are also taught that the church leaders who are also a few group of people . . can tell us what is best for everyone . . .for every situation . . . .well . . um

obviously both groups have been failing at their duties . . . the money and peace that the Lord has afforded us for soooo long . . .40+ years now of affluence and ease has made our leaders jealous, covetous(of church funds), self centered, and I could go on . . .they reflect the majority of the church members as well . . . . governement leaders and people in general are so totally lost regarding their attitude of money . . .

prophecy fulfilled

last comment . . . God does not look on the outward . . .but inward. . . .he must have given that warning knowing that we could find ourselves guilty of looking outward . . .

I love to make this comment to one of my friends and hear them laugh . . . . " I work at Walmart which tells you nothing about me . . . .but your reaction tells me a lot about you. " honest to woops . . .can't say that expression . . .I have seen the reactions of good mormons to where I work . . . anyway they think they are good

afterthought: I often wonder if our leaders local and general . . know that they are children of God . . . .and that we are . . . with expectations for that great privilege . . . . or do they see themselves and their identity as just retired businessmen, doctors, college pres, etc. or those currently employed . . . and they are just running a corporation

EvanLM wrote: ↑March 26th, 2022, 5:17 pm I love to make this comment to one of my friends and hear them laugh . . . . " I work at Walmart which tells you nothing about me . . . .but your reaction tells me a lot about you. " honest to woops . . .can't say that expression . . .I have seen the reactions of good mormons to where I work . . . anyway they think they are good

I had some woman - an investigator no less! - trying to probe me about what I did for a living in the chapel. It was actually very uncomfortable. She even doubted some of what I told her.

EvanLM wrote: ↑March 26th, 2022, 5:22 pm afterthought: I often wonder if our leaders local and general . . know that they are children of God . . . .and that we are . . . with expectations for that great privilege . . . . or do they see themselves and their identity as just retired businessmen, doctors, college pres, etc. or those currently employed . . . and they are just running a corporation

The principle lesson I have gleaned from temple 'worship' is that absolutely NO ONE can get through mortal LIFE without the ASSISTANCE of others at EVERY step.

We might imagine we are not in need because we forget our helplessness as children and certainly do not anticipate our helplessness as the infirm and/or aged. It is a major challenge for us to see to the needs of others while imagining we are without need of assistance.