LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **March 24th, 2022, 7:57 pm**

I'm confused the one set of numbers says $1M to $5M, THAT IS MIDDLE CLASS!. For any successful businessman of retirement age, that seems like nothing. I mean I'm nobody financially, was an engineer in USAF, worked for the man, single income most of my life 4 kids, but surely beat those numbers, and I barely play the stock market or real estate. If folks are jealous of those numbers, my, my. Then again it does depend where you live. 6 figures in rural Utah, your rich, 6 figures in Seattle you're living in a rundown condo, in NYC your homeless, in rural Tenn your king. Not sure about San Paulo, not like London, but likely more expensive than DT SLC or Portland.

Posted: **March 24th, 2022, 7:59 pm**

A very quick google search would indicate that the average accountants in developed lands for Pirelli get around 50k a year American.

Knowing Latin American salaries for accountants in general I can say with a high degree of confidence that accounting directors get less than half that a year. Not the common scurrying analyst but the director of the whole plant operation.

I'm not talking some knock-off S de RL de CV in Mexico that has a presence only in two states in the country. I'm talking an Aktiensgesellschaft that has international presence.

If they know English, they can get a higher salary still but nowhere near what they get in the US, UK, or EU. Yet a person that works very hard in a country like Brazil, gets paid in dollars, will EASILY have a comfortable retirement when they get to Soares' age.

It's all about using your money wisely. And not acting like Bernie Sanders when only rich guys are called to be apostles.

Posted: **March 24th, 2022, 8:04 pm**

Situation: You make 40,000 dollars a year living in Mexico, yet you live a fairly simple life. A humble car, your house constructed, so you owe the bank nothing, your monthly auto payment of let's say 300 dollars, your living expenses of let's say about 1,000 dollars a month, and maybe an additional 500 dollars a month in "gustos." We are talking about 2,000 dollars a month that is being saved up per month. Multiply that by 40 years and you'll end up with a million dollars.

And in Mexico (and in many LatAm countries in general), it is possible to live on less than 1000 dollars a month. So let's say he saved up 3000 dollars a month. He'll have a million dollars in 27 years.

Conclusion: Soares is able to "swim in riches" now because he lived a simple life when he was younger to middle-aged.

Posted: **March 24th, 2022, 8:08 pm**

Christianlee wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 9:44 am This is a serious question. Are the brethren uncomfortable with people who are raising their families on $40,000-$50,000 a year? Are they more likely to favor the rich and upper middle class? I would propose they are.

YES they do, I have seen this with my own eyes and for me it's NOT hearsay or rumors. IF you are native american, or non white upper class, they will flat out ignore you.

Posted: **March 24th, 2022, 8:30 pm**

We recently had a change in bishopric in my ward. Of course there is the usual gossip and guesses as to who is going to be the new bishop. When asked I said "It's going to be Brother "X." There were a few other guesses but in the end I was right. "How did you know?" It's easy. Brother "X," is a well to do man in an occupation with a ton of connections in the business community. Sure there are other well to do men in the ward who could have filled the role just fine but none with his societal status. He is not a particularly spiritual fellow and is actually kind of a "d-bag," in my opinion. But that's irrelevant. He is connected. He will be Stake President and on up from there. Why do you think the GA's always state their occupational background in the Ensign articles? How many times does Rusty have to remind us that he is the actual inventor of the human heart? Im sure that there are plenty of good hearted men and women who have high positions within the church but I also believe that it takes a special kind of narcissist to get one of the guilded seats on the stage.

Posted: **March 24th, 2022, 9:02 pm**

762X545 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 8:30 pm We recently had a change in bishopric in my ward. Of course there is the usual gossip and guesses as to who is going to be the new bishop. When asked I said "It's going to be Brother "X." There were a few other guesses but in the end I was right. "How did you know?" It's easy. Brother "X," is a well to do man in an occupation with a ton of connections in the business community. Sure there are other well to do men in the ward who could have filled the role just fine but none with his societal status. He is not a particularly spiritual fellow and is actually kind of a "d-bag," in my opinion. But that's irrelevant. He is connected. He will be Stake President and on up from there. Why do you think the GA's always state their occupational background in the Ensign articles? How many times does Rusty have to remind us that he is the actual inventor of the human heart? Im sure that there are plenty of good hearted men and women who have high positions within the church but I also believe that it takes a special kind of narcissist to get one of the guilded seats on the stage.

President Nelson would NOT have been able to do many of the things he's done in his ministry, up to the time he became President of the Church, if not for his educational and professional background. The same can be argued for most if not all of his colleagues in the Q12 and FP.

Posted: **March 24th, 2022, 9:22 pm**

How many times does Rusty have to remind us that he is the actual inventor of the human heart?

Well, I've never heard him say that!

Anyway, it wasn't the engineer, Robert Jarvek who did either. It was Paul Winchell, Ventriloquist Extraordinaire!
https://www.davison.com/blog/paul-winch ... -inventor/

Though Dr. Robert Jarvik has been referred to as “the inventor of the artificial heart,” documents from the United States Patent Office show that on February 6, 1961, Paul Winchell filed for a patent on his artificial heart. He was granted a patent (3097366) on July 16, 1963, well before the Jarvik-7 was ever invented.

I worked at UofU KUED-7 during the Barney Clark artificial heart transplant insanity. Before some settlement was agreed upon, there was a great deal of effort put forth to totally discredit Paul Winchell's contribution to the artificial heart development.

Posted: **March 24th, 2022, 9:47 pm**

Ok,, but Jarvek was the first one to keep a person alive for a while, it was my friend's dad, BTW. I get the inside scoop.

Posted: **March 24th, 2022, 10:00 pm**

Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 7:54 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 7:48 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 7:30 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 7:16 pm

I guess being worth millions doesn't count?

The accountant for multi national corporations pull some serious dough.

Now, if you said president Monson, you may be right. I don't know if he even had a career outside the church.
A screenshot from some random website saying something isn't evidence. There's no way companies are paying Brazilian accountants millions of dollars.
When you're at the director level, sure they do. You don't just get hired into a new job as a director if you're not already qualified.

Further research shows that he worked for Pirelli Tire company. A multi national corporation IN Brazil.
1 - director of finance for the Sao Paolo area... isn't that important of a job. A c-level would certainly be a big step down. A mid-level accountant however would be a pretty good fit.

2 - you think Pirelli, an Italian company, outsourced jobs to Brazil to pay them millions of dollars? That's how you think outsourcing works?

Salary.com puts finance directors in Brazil at 750k a year

Sounds like he may have made some savvy investments.

Posted: **March 24th, 2022, 10:49 pm**

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 10:00 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 7:54 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 7:48 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 7:30 pm

A screenshot from some random website saying something isn't evidence. There's no way companies are paying Brazilian accountants millions of dollars.
When you're at the director level, sure they do. You don't just get hired into a new job as a director if you're not already qualified.

Further research shows that he worked for Pirelli Tire company. A multi national corporation IN Brazil.
1 - director of finance for the Sao Paolo area... isn't that important of a job. A c-level would certainly be a big step down. A mid-level accountant however would be a pretty good fit.

2 - you think Pirelli, an Italian company, outsourced jobs to Brazil to pay them millions of dollars? That's how you think outsourcing works?

Salary.com puts finance directors in Brazil at 7.5k a year

Sounds like he may have made some savvy investments.

Or maybe he isn't rich? Because that's what the evidence shows?

Posted: **March 25th, 2022, 3:19 am**

The question wasn’t, “Are the leaders of the church rich and successful?” The question was do they look down on those who aren’t? Do they see them as less worthy of respect?

Posted: **March 25th, 2022, 3:47 am**

Christianlee wrote: ↑March 25th, 2022, 3:19 am The question wasn’t, “Are the leaders of the church rich and successful?” The question was do they look down on those who aren’t? Do they see them as less worthy of respect?

Where does material wealth place a person on Isaiah’s Ladder of Ascension?

Posted: **March 25th, 2022, 3:53 am**

Christianlee wrote: ↑March 25th, 2022, 3:19 am The question wasn’t, “Are the leaders of the church rich and successful?” The question was do they look down on those who aren’t? Do they see them as less worthy of respect?

The question should be whether they are rich. (Success is a different matter and there are many different ways of measuring that.)

If they do see less rich people as worthy of respect, then maybe we would see more of them promoted to higher levels of the church.

Posted: **March 25th, 2022, 7:16 am**

People in positions of Power typically always look down on those under them. The King Benjamin example of leadership is an exception. It’s very much part of human nature to categorize things in a hierarchical order.

Posted: **March 25th, 2022, 7:45 am**

BeNotDeceived wrote: ↑March 25th, 2022, 3:47 am
Christianlee wrote: ↑March 25th, 2022, 3:19 am The question wasn’t, “Are the leaders of the church rich and successful?” The question was do they look down on those who aren’t? Do they see them as less worthy of respect?
Where does material wealth place a person on Isaiah’s Ladder of Ascension?

Rich? Maybe one or two wandering around somewhere in the field of the bottom rung, but most not even caring anything about the ladder at all, and wander around gathering up "that which moths doth corrupt".

Posted: **March 25th, 2022, 10:06 am**

We are taught that we should always strive for better. For many people this is based on a coveting of sorts. When is it considered ENOUGH?

Perhaps we are better off striving for spiritual wealth? My husband I often talk about how happy we were when we were poor. With monetary gain comes larger problems. We see that we can afford more so we buy more. It is a merry-go-round that is spun faster with each pay raise/status jump. It seems that each Earthly gain is pulling us further from our spiritual goals.

Now that we are down-sizing and getting rid of many of our belongings, we are again finding happiness. If the leadership choses to look down on us, they will be the ones' who are losing blessings.

Posted: **March 25th, 2022, 2:05 pm**

deleted

Posted: **March 25th, 2022, 2:19 pm**

Mamabear wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 10:02 am
Christianlee wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 9:44 am This is a serious question. Are the brethren uncomfortable with people who are raising their families on $40,000-$50,000 a year? Are they more likely to favor the rich and upper middle class? I would propose they are.

I think yes by the way leadership positions are filled. Stake presidents and mission presidents are typically wealthy.

I don't think this is a top-down view, I think this is peer-related.

It's local leaders that select for their 'favorites' or for the 'template' of leader to be in leadership positions - There is a literal CLASS system in the church, Tier 1 members who have the 'leadership' roles, the heavy lifting is done by most that are never thought of as the right kind of person for leadership. This is selected for at the local level, but because of how our hierarchy works, it works itself up to the top levels as well. Automatically, Doctors, Dentists, Lawyers, Business Ownders, Corporate Executives are all assumed to be righteous priesthood leaders (there is also a bonus outside of Utah for BYU Graduates). Comcast Technicians, not so much, HVAC technician, nope (unless you own an HVAC company). This, however, isn't true with how a woman is selected for local leadership.

Just think how a SP is chosen, Each Bishop and HC is interviewed, at the end of the interview they are asked who should be the next SP - The person that majority select is then chosen as SP and asked to pick counselors from the list of others that those interviewed mention. This isn't a choice from the Top - it's peer, it's local.

A70's come from the pool of SP's, G70 selected from the Pool of A70s, PG70 selected from G70 and Q15 are selected from the PG70. None of this is enforced from the top-down, but from the bottom up.

Posted: **March 25th, 2022, 2:26 pm**

zionssuburb wrote: ↑March 25th, 2022, 2:19 pm
Mamabear wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 10:02 am
Christianlee wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 9:44 am This is a serious question. Are the brethren uncomfortable with people who are raising their families on $40,000-$50,000 a year? Are they more likely to favor the rich and upper middle class? I would propose they are.

I think yes by the way leadership positions are filled. Stake presidents and mission presidents are typically wealthy.
I don't think this is a top-down view, I think this is peer-related.

It's local leaders that select for their 'favorites' or for the 'template' of leader to be in leadership positions - There is a literal CLASS system in the church, Tier 1 members who have the 'leadership' roles, the heavy lifting is done by most that are never thought of as the right kind of person for leadership. This is selected for at the local level, but because of how our hierarchy works, it works itself up to the top levels as well. Automatically, Doctors, Dentists, Lawyers, Business Ownders, Corporate Executives are all assumed to be righteous priesthood leaders (there is also a bonus outside of Utah for BYU Graduates). Comcast Technicians, not so much, HVAC technician, nope (unless you own an HVAC company). This, however, isn't true with how a woman is selected for local leadership.

Just think how a SP is chosen, Each Bishop and HC is interviewed, at the end of the interview they are asked who should be the next SP - The person that majority select is then chosen as SP and asked to pick counselors from the list of others that those interviewed mention. This isn't a choice from the Top - it's peer, it's local.

A70's come from the pool of SP's, G70 selected from the Pool of A70s, PG70 selected from G70 and Q15 are selected from the PG70. None of this is enforced from the top-down, but from the bottom up.

Yeah.... None of that is true.

Posted: **March 25th, 2022, 2:29 pm**

Momma J wrote: ↑March 25th, 2022, 10:06 am With monetary gain comes larger problems.

Posted: **March 25th, 2022, 2:56 pm**

EvanLM wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 4:54 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 10:08 am Who was the last blue-collar Apostle?

Who was the last that was not wealthy?
Ballard . . .I think he is the last smith, too

I know President Ballard had his struggles with the Edsel dealership, but I think by the time he was called as a general authority he was somewhat wealthy since he did still own a car dealership or two. I'm not sure of exact figures.

Elder Soares probably would have been right at the start of the upper middle class when he was working for the Church.

I think more than wealth general authorities are called based on their ability to work long hours without breaking down physically and mentally. That usually translates into wealth in our society, but the educators (Maxwell, Holland, Bednar, and Oaks) probably weren't super wealthy when they were called, although none of them were poor or even lower middle class.

I think almost all of these men were good, good men when they were called, but something happened and they went way off the tracks. I wonder exactly how this happened.

Posted: **March 25th, 2022, 4:22 pm**

Lexew1899 wrote: ↑March 25th, 2022, 7:16 am People in positions of Power typically always look down on those under them. The King Benjamin example of leadership is an exception. It’s very much part of human nature to categorize things in a hierarchical order.

yea and it was put into the scriptures for the learning of leaders . . . a pattern for the prophets who wanted to live a higher type of life. . . but they get to choose . . if they anwt to have wages ont op of their already earned pensions from other businesses, then . . . . .

they look down on us and it is very obvious in their talks . . .always milk . . they expect no higher thought of us . . . go back and listen to some of uckdorf's talks . . . what does he think of his audinece?

Posted: **March 25th, 2022, 4:22 pm**

we learned that analysis in high school . . . what audience is someone talking to . . or what are they assuming about their audience

Posted: **March 25th, 2022, 4:32 pm**

zionssuburb wrote: ↑March 25th, 2022, 2:19 pm
Just think how a SP is chosen, Each Bishop and HC is interviewed, at the end of the interview they are asked who should be the next SP - The person that majority select is then chosen as SP and asked to pick counselors from the list of others that those interviewed mention. This isn't a choice from the Top - it's peer, it's local.

The questioning of the interviewees as to who they think should be stake president is informational to the visiting 70, but isn't determinative. I'm sure many times he makes another choice, after taking that into consideration. It's not really a "voting" on the part of the candidates --- although, if there is an overwhelming preponderance for someone, I'm sure that factors in.

Also, counselor picks often come from **outside** the pool of interviewees.

What happens in my experience (several of these interviews) is that the 70 picks a man from the "usual suspects" of fields (law, medicine, academia, business management, etc.). The cycle perpetuates on up the hierarchy, as you mentioned.

Posted: **March 25th, 2022, 7:45 pm**

Rubicon wrote: ↑March 25th, 2022, 4:32 pm
zionssuburb wrote: ↑March 25th, 2022, 2:19 pm
Just think how a SP is chosen, Each Bishop and HC is interviewed, at the end of the interview they are asked who should be the next SP - The person that majority select is then chosen as SP and asked to pick counselors from the list of others that those interviewed mention. This isn't a choice from the Top - it's peer, it's local.
The questioning of the interviewees as to who they think should be stake president is informational to the visiting 70, but isn't determinative. I'm sure many times he makes another choice, after taking that into consideration. It's not really a "voting" on the part of the candidates --- although, if there is an overwhelming preponderance for someone, I'm sure that factors in.

Also, counselor picks often come from **outside** the pool of interviewees.

What happens in my experience (several of these interviews) is that the 70 picks a man from the "usual suspects" of fields (law, medicine, academia, business management, etc.). The cycle perpetuates on up the hierarchy, as you mentioned.

I did forget that not only are they asked who should be the next SP, but also, if there is anyone else that should be interviewed. Of course it isn't always the selection made, but the point is that to be interviewed to be considered you already have to have been selected for the Tier 1 Membership. The assigned x70/Q15 that is assigned to reorganize the stake rarely reaches out beyond that group. Again, it's not that they deliberately say, give me a list of all the doctors, dentists, etc... They do NOT come to the reorganization with a who's who of top tithing payers in the stake, that is truly crazy town, I mean it, it really is.

It's already been selected for at the local level. WE do this, it's our lower judges are are most at fault.

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