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Re: Do the brethren look down on the lower middle class?
Posted: March 24th, 2022, 5:03 pm
by EvanLM
tribrac wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 2:17 pm
Yes and no. What I have witnessed in life..not just with COPB and local lds but in many walks of like....Upper class white people love to help lower class people with brown skin.
But they resent and loath lower class whites.
They also have disgust for poor people of any color who are content being poor. Poor people are supposed to be asking them for help and hold them in high regard.
yep, they love to testify of their sons baptizing them from so america and africa or their own relationship with people of these countries but they don't want them to move into their neighborhoods . . .
Re: Do the brethren look down on the lower middle class?
Posted: March 24th, 2022, 5:12 pm
by EvanLM
bwahahahahahah . . .some things are just so serious . . . unfortunately, I am poor, but do not covet the positions of authority or money . . . . . it's just that so many things are so much more important and this subject has been so seriously stretched in this video. . .
Isaiah says the church and its people reflect the leaders and the leaders reflect their people
Isaiah also says that the leaders of citizens reflect their government leaders and their government leaders reflect the people
Isaiah also says that the government leaders and the religious leaders will both be corrupt
so . . .this crazy video show taht more prophecy has been fulfilled. . . . these prophecies are to remind us to prepare for the return of the savior . . .
Re: Do the brethren look down on the lower middle class?
Posted: March 24th, 2022, 5:14 pm
by EvanLM
posters note: so, in my mind, Iasiah is saying it is hard to call the pot black . . .or is it the kettle black . . .
I'm not sure God cares about money . . rather in the ten commandments he stresses covetness . . . love of your own riches or someone elses is a problem
Re: Do the brethren look down on the lower middle class?
Posted: March 24th, 2022, 5:15 pm
by EvanLM
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 3:37 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 10:08 am
Who was the last blue-collar Apostle?
Who was the last that was not wealthy?
The last non-wealthy apostle is probably the last apostle: Elder Soares.
where do you support this?
Re: Do the brethren look down on the lower middle class?
Posted: March 24th, 2022, 5:17 pm
by EvanLM
afterthought: JS saw God and Jesus . . .what was his profession? John the baptist . . . what was his profession?
Re: Do the brethren look down on the lower middle class?
Posted: March 24th, 2022, 5:17 pm
by InfoWarrior82
EvanLM wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 4:54 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 10:08 am
Who was the last blue-collar Apostle?
Who was the last that was not wealthy?
Ballard . . .I think he is the last smith, too
Re: Do the brethren look down on the lower middle class?
Posted: March 24th, 2022, 5:20 pm
by InfoWarrior82
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 3:37 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 10:08 am
Who was the last blue-collar Apostle?
Who was the last that was not wealthy?
The last non-wealthy apostle is probably the last apostle: Elder Soares.
I'll rephrase... multi millionaire.
Re: Do the brethren look down on the lower middle class?
Posted: March 24th, 2022, 5:26 pm
by JK4Woods
Ok… this thread is rubbing up some heretofore disquiet within me…
Re-reading the doctrine of Christ in the Book of Mormon shows it's really a fairly simple doctrine: choose which influence you want to follow.
And with one choice, mercy and the atonement comes into play, or, on the other hand, justice and judgement.
While the church and its leaders are acting like they are on the bullet train to the celestial kingdom, and to get your ticket punched, you gotta become a member and follow their rules...
While the rest of Christianity looks like its on the slow train, stopping at every whistle stop, overloaded with the poor, traveling slowly, with sheep and goats and chickens, and others clinging to the roof....
Don't both trains get to the Judgement Bar equally...??
One sleek and sanitized. Air conditioned and isolated.
The other creeping thru humanity picking up whoever chooses to get on.
Kinda feeling I want off the bullet train...
and would rather be on the local train...
"Covenant Path" = first class ticket to the bullet train...
“Blood, sweat and tears” = 3rd class passage on the local whistle stop train…. (May be slow going, but it’ll eventually get there….).
Which would Jesus get on…??
Re: Do the brethren look down on the lower middle class?
Posted: March 24th, 2022, 6:18 pm
by Artaxerxes
EvanLM wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 5:15 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 3:37 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 10:08 am
Who was the last blue-collar Apostle?
Who was the last that was not wealthy?
The last non-wealthy apostle is probably the last apostle: Elder Soares.
where do you support this?
Say what now?
Re: Do the brethren look down on the lower middle class?
Posted: March 24th, 2022, 6:21 pm
by Artaxerxes
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 5:20 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 3:37 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 10:08 am
Who was the last blue-collar Apostle?
Who was the last that was not wealthy?
The last non-wealthy apostle is probably the last apostle: Elder Soares.
I'll rephrase... multi millionaire.
Don't believe everything you read on the internet. Accountants, particularly those in Brazil, don't make millions.
Re: Do the brethren look down on the lower middle class?
Posted: March 24th, 2022, 6:28 pm
by TheDuke
Sounds like some folks on this thread are jealous of financially successful people, be they LDS leaders or anyone else. Petty.
And Jesus was not a carpenter or was Joseph, bad translation, it should read stone mason or stone builder, not much carpentry as we know it in Israel in those days.
Re: Do the brethren look down on the lower middle class?
Posted: March 24th, 2022, 6:29 pm
by InfoWarrior82
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 6:21 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 5:20 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 3:37 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 10:08 am
Who was the last blue-collar Apostle?
Who was the last that was not wealthy?
The last non-wealthy apostle is probably the last apostle: Elder Soares.
I'll rephrase... multi millionaire.
Don't believe everything you read on the internet. Accountants, particularly those in Brazil, don't make millions.
*Multi-national corporations in Brazil.
Definitely rich. Definitely not blue collar.
Got any other names?
Re: Do the brethren look down on the lower middle class?
Posted: March 24th, 2022, 6:31 pm
by Serragon
Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 3:53 pm
buffalo_girl wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 2:22 pm
Besides what would the bio's look like if they read "he was a humble carpenter by trade, he perfected the 45* cut and could plumb a wall with the best of them"
Apologies for those who have heard me tell this previously.
A dear friend's husband was transferred to a wealthy Ward in Omaha, Nebraska several decades past. It came up in a Gospel Doctrine class that Jesus could NOT have been 'a humble carpenter'. He had to have been a General Contractor, otherwise how could he have afforded to fulfill His three year mission.
They were serious....
The thing is, we don't know that Jesus was a carpenter. Joseph was, but that doesn't mean he followed the same profession. I think it's an unjustified assumption.
I don't know why, but I don't personally think he was.
Saw it on a bumper sticker. It's true.
Re: Do the brethren look down on the lower middle class?
Posted: March 24th, 2022, 6:31 pm
by Artaxerxes
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 6:29 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 6:21 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 5:20 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 3:37 pm
The last non-wealthy apostle is probably the last apostle: Elder Soares.
I'll rephrase... multi millionaire.
Don't believe everything you read on the internet. Accountants, particularly those in Brazil, don't make millions.
*Multi-national corporations in Brazil.
Definitely rich. Definitely not blue collar.
Got any other names?
A multinational corporation!?!??! How scary! I'll have to tell my friend who works at Walmart to expect to make millions since he's working for a giant multinational corporation!!!
Re: Do the brethren look down on the lower middle class?
Posted: March 24th, 2022, 6:45 pm
by blitzinstripes
I served my mission in southern California in the mid 1990's. I clearly remember my mission president telling us we needed to focus our efforts on middle to upper class neighborhoods because we were baptizing too many into the church welfare system. Interesting fact that those neighborhoods most likely slammed doors in our faces. It has always been the poor and meek who have been most receptive to the gospel, even in Christ's day.
By contrast my MP was a renowned Salt Lake valley physician. A very wealthy and prominent man. I loved him,and he was a great teacher and educator. But that message never sat well with me.
Re: Do the brethren look down on the lower middle class?
Posted: March 24th, 2022, 6:55 pm
by InfoWarrior82
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 6:31 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 6:29 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 6:21 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 5:20 pm
I'll rephrase... multi millionaire.
Don't believe everything you read on the internet. Accountants, particularly those in Brazil, don't make millions.
*Multi-national corporations in Brazil.
Definitely rich. Definitely not blue collar.
Got any other names?
A multinational corporation!?!??! How scary! I'll have to tell my friend who works at Walmart to expect to make millions since he's working for a giant multinational corporation!!!
He worked as an accountant for large corporations just before he got hired by the church to be the director of temporal affairs for the Sao Paulo area. You don't just get appointed to be director if you're a lowly accountant.
Re: Do the brethren look down on the lower middle class?
Posted: March 24th, 2022, 7:02 pm
by Artaxerxes
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 6:55 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 6:31 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 6:29 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 6:21 pm
Don't believe everything you read on the internet. Accountants, particularly those in Brazil, don't make millions.
*Multi-national corporations in Brazil.
Definitely rich. Definitely not blue collar.
Got any other names?
A multinational corporation!?!??! How scary! I'll have to tell my friend who works at Walmart to expect to make millions since he's working for a giant multinational corporation!!!
He worked as an accountant for large corporations just before he got hired by the church to be the director of temporal affairs for the Sao Paulo area. You don't just get appointed to be director if you're a lowly accountant.
Oh? Are there a lot of temple recommend holding Brazilian CFOs that they could pick from?
Re: Do the brethren look down on the lower middle class?
Posted: March 24th, 2022, 7:08 pm
by InfoWarrior82
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 7:02 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 6:55 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 6:31 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 6:29 pm
*Multi-national corporations in Brazil.
Definitely rich. Definitely not blue collar.
Got any other names?
A multinational corporation!?!??! How scary! I'll have to tell my friend who works at Walmart to expect to make millions since he's working for a giant multinational corporation!!!
He worked as an accountant for large corporations just before he got hired by the church to be the director of temporal affairs for the Sao Paulo area. You don't just get appointed to be director if you're a lowly accountant.
Oh? Are there a lot of temple recommend holding Brazilian CFOs that they could pick from?
Aaanyway... My question was:
Who was the last blue-collar non wealthy apostle?
Re: Do the brethren look down on the lower middle class?
Posted: March 24th, 2022, 7:10 pm
by TheChristian
Niemand wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 2:34 pm
buffalo_girl wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 2:22 pm
Besides what would the bio's look like if they read "he was a humble carpenter by trade, he perfected the 45* cut and could plumb a wall with the best of them"
Apologies for those who have heard me tell this previously.
A dear friend's husband was transferred to a wealthy Ward in Omaha, Nebraska several decades past. It came up in a Gospel Doctrine class that Jesus could NOT have been 'a humble carpenter'. He had to have been a General Contractor, otherwise how could he have afforded to fulfill His three year mission.
They were serious....
They are half right.
Where they are right is that carpentry was considered a skilled occupation then, and a craft, rather than just an unskilled job. You needed training, and your tools would have been expensive and passed down. This notion has been lost because of industrialisation.
So in that sense, while it makes Jesus lower status than a lawyer or even some master craftsmen, it would put him about the same status as a weaver or tailor.
So, no, he wasn't on the bottom rung of society. He was a skilled labourer. I've worked on construction sites myself, and such people are still in demand.
But on the other hand, I've heard it said that because Jesus could read Hebrew, he must have been rich. That isn't true. Most Jews were taught to read it, as they are today. Literacy was much higher among Jews than Romans.
In the Law of Moses.............. (Leviticus)
‘These are the regulations for the woman who gives birth to a boy or a girl.
But if she cannot afford a lamb, she is to bring two doves or two young pigeons,
one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering.
In this way the priest will make atonement for her, and she will be clean.’ ”
when Jesus was presented in the temple, Mary and Joseph sacrificed two turtle doves which, according to the Book of Leviticus was the sacrifice offered by poor people.
The Apostle Paul said .........
For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you by his poverty might become rich......
And James the Lords brother said..........
God chose poor men whoms only wealth was their faith.............
Re: Do the brethren look down on the lower middle class?
Posted: March 24th, 2022, 7:13 pm
by Artaxerxes
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 7:08 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 7:02 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 6:55 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 6:31 pm
A multinational corporation!?!??! How scary! I'll have to tell my friend who works at Walmart to expect to make millions since he's working for a giant multinational corporation!!!
He worked as an accountant for large corporations just before he got hired by the church to be the director of temporal affairs for the Sao Paulo area. You don't just get appointed to be director if you're a lowly accountant.
Oh? Are there a lot of temple recommend holding Brazilian CFOs that they could pick from?
Aaanyway... My question was:
Who was the last blue-collar non wealthy apostle?
No. That was not your question.
Re: Do the brethren look down on the lower middle class?
Posted: March 24th, 2022, 7:16 pm
by InfoWarrior82
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 7:13 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 7:08 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 7:02 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 6:55 pm
He worked as an accountant for large corporations just before he got hired by the church to be the director of temporal affairs for the Sao Paulo area. You don't just get appointed to be director if you're a lowly accountant.
Oh? Are there a lot of temple recommend holding Brazilian CFOs that they could pick from?
Aaanyway... My question was:
Who was the last blue-collar non wealthy apostle?
No. That was not your question.
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 3:37 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 10:08 am
Who was the last blue-collar Apostle?
Who was the last that was not wealthy?
The last non-wealthy apostle is probably the last apostle: Elder Soares.
I guess being worth millions doesn't count?
The accountant for multi national corporations pull some serious dough.
Now, if you said president Monson, you may be right. I don't know if he even had a career outside the church.
Re: Do the brethren look down on the lower middle class?
Posted: March 24th, 2022, 7:30 pm
by Artaxerxes
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 7:16 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 7:13 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 7:08 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 7:02 pm
Oh? Are there a lot of temple recommend holding Brazilian CFOs that they could pick from?
Aaanyway... My question was:
Who was the last blue-collar non wealthy apostle?
No. That was not your question.
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 3:37 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 10:08 am
Who was the last blue-collar Apostle?
Who was the last that was not wealthy?
The last non-wealthy apostle is probably the last apostle: Elder Soares.
I guess being worth millions doesn't count?
The accountant for multi national corporations pull some serious dough.
Now, if you said president Monson, you may be right. I don't know if he even had a career outside the church.
A screenshot from some random website saying something isn't evidence. There's no way companies are paying Brazilian accountants millions of dollars.
Re: Do the brethren look down on the lower middle class?
Posted: March 24th, 2022, 7:48 pm
by InfoWarrior82
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 7:30 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 7:16 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 7:13 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 7:08 pm
Aaanyway... My question was:
Who was the last blue-collar non wealthy apostle?
No. That was not your question.
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 3:37 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 10:08 am
Who was the last blue-collar Apostle?
Who was the last that was not wealthy?
The last non-wealthy apostle is probably the last apostle: Elder Soares.
I guess being worth millions doesn't count?
The accountant for multi national corporations pull some serious dough.
Now, if you said president Monson, you may be right. I don't know if he even had a career outside the church.
A screenshot from some random website saying something isn't evidence. There's no way companies are paying Brazilian accountants millions of dollars.
When you're at the director level, sure they do. You don't just get hired into a new job as a director if you're not already qualified.
Further research shows that he worked for Pirelli Tire company. A multi national corporation IN Brazil.
Re: Do the brethren look down on the lower middle class?
Posted: March 24th, 2022, 7:53 pm
by Subcomandante
People are going to hate what I have to say here...
I wish for simpler times when one could be a fisherman or a mechanic or something along those lines to be an Apostle. Back in the older days of today's Church, and in previous iterations of the Church, that was indeed very simple and doable.
Reason?
The scriptures largely took place in a few nations. The New Testament largely took place within ONE nation, the Roman Empire.
The Church today is in over 190 nations and territories. Each one with its own laws of entries and exits. Yet an Apostle is charged in Scripture to preach the Gospel in all the world, to every creature. Modern-day immigration laws did not exist in the times of the Scriptures or even in the early Church. Brigham Young entered into Mexican territory without so much as presenting a document. Now these days you need documents even to go to an embassy of any foreign country to get a visa.
That's going to be VERY difficult for say, a Mexican corn farmer, that can't even get into the United States on a tourist visa because his funds are not sufficient and he lacks a degree in a relevant field to even work within the country. He could have the prophetic vision of Heber C. Kimball with the directness of speech of a Joseph Smith or a Brigham Young. But he will not be called to be an Apostle. Becuase he will find himself unable to fulfill the primary role of an Apostle: Going into all the world to preach the gospel to every creature.
Re: Do the brethren look down on the lower middle class?
Posted: March 24th, 2022, 7:54 pm
by Artaxerxes
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 7:48 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 7:30 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 7:16 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 7:13 pm
No. That was not your question.
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 24th, 2022, 3:37 pm
The last non-wealthy apostle is probably the last apostle: Elder Soares.
I guess being worth millions doesn't count?
The accountant for multi national corporations pull some serious dough.
Now, if you said president Monson, you may be right. I don't know if he even had a career outside the church.
A screenshot from some random website saying something isn't evidence. There's no way companies are paying Brazilian accountants millions of dollars.
When you're at the director level, sure they do. You don't just get hired into a new job as a director if you're not already qualified.
Further research shows that he worked for Pirelli Tire company. A multi national corporation IN Brazil.
1 - director of finance for the Sao Paolo area... isn't that important of a job. A c-level would certainly be a big step down. A mid-level accountant however would be a pretty good fit.
2 - you think Pirelli, an Italian company, outsourced jobs to Brazil to pay them millions of dollars? That's how you think outsourcing works?