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Re: What the Future of Mormonism ought to be.

Posted: March 26th, 2022, 1:10 pm
by Leland41-2
Those are some great photos. I especially like the meeting between the representative of the old priestcraft system and the representative of the new priestcraft system, where the new is hoping to replace the old. (See pictures of the Rome Temple, our entry into the expensive religious architectural sweepstakes. In the time of Martin Luther, I believe it was St. Peter's Basilica that was the issue.)
What will the saints do next?
I think the point here is that the members themselves have to decide what happens next. The top leaders are incorrigible. They are the SOURCE of the problem, not any potential solution, and looking to them to create a better future for us is completely pointless. If the members cannot wake up and act differently from the leaders, then we are indeed doomed. That is a tall order, but I see no other alternative.

As a response to the many interesting photos shown above, I offer this one: "You Can Vote Your Way Into Socialism, But You Have To Shoot Your Way Out" [Oops, no photo.]

Image

Socialism and priestcraft are exactly the same thing, except, perhaps, for the level of unjustified control by the elite at any particular moment.
Revolutions, quiet or not-so-quiet, are difficult things to control and choreograph. A Mormon "Martin Luther" moment is hard to understand and assimilate and reproduce.

I personally see no reason why all the members should stay with the lemmings who are going off the cliff to certain destruction (along with our nation) if the church leaders are allowed to remain in complete control. I assume we would have to greatly raise the level of understanding and awareness among a large number of members before any kind of proper gradual separation of the sheep from the goats could take place. Maybe the old church could take with it all of the pagan/gay members and save that trouble from the "new fundamentalists" or the "restore the restoration" people. The church might find that the gay people pay more tithing than the regular people.

Re: What the Future of Mormonism ought to be.

Posted: March 26th, 2022, 10:23 pm
by Being There
BeNotDeceived wrote: March 26th, 2022, 9:48 am
Being There wrote: March 26th, 2022, 9:13 am What the Future of "Mormonism" ought to be -
what it ought to be, and what the future will be, will be according to what the scriptures say -
and that is - is it wont be.
There won't be a future for Mormonism.
(which we can already see by seeing the signs of the times and where the church is at -
in full apostasy - awaiting God's wrath ! - which comes next )
What will the saints do next?
be cleansed.
"And upon my house shall it begin"

D&C 112:24-26
24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation;
and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

Very few members will be left after the cleansing
and will be gathered by the Lord's servant, and are gathered with God’s righteous remnant
and will "assist" the remnants of Jacob,
and House of Israel who's land this has been given to;
to build the New Jerusalem and be numbered with them.

"A hard fact of Isaiah’s end-time scenario is that it is not those who appear to be God’s people whom God saves in the end but those who are rejected by the majority. These “outcasts” suffer “reproach” and “ridicule,” are “excluded” from God’s people, and, like God’s servant who gathers them, are “despised” and “abhorred” until God reverses their circumstances (Isaiah 49:7–8; 51:7; 60:15–16; 61:7, 9; 66:5–8).
In the end, those who are excluded and betrayed by their own people, are gathered with God’s righteous remnant: “Thus says my Lord Jehovah, who gathers up the outcasts of Israel: ‘I will gather others to those already gathered’” (Isaiah 56:3, 8).

------------------------------------------------------
3 Nephi 20

14 And the Father hath commanded me
that I should give unto you this land, for your inheritance.

15 And I say unto you, that if the Gentiles do not repent after the blessing which they shall receive, after they have scattered my people—

20 And it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that the sword of my justice shall hang over them at that day; and except they repent it shall fall upon them, saith the Father, yea, even upon all the nations of the Gentiles.

21 And it shall come to pass that I will establish my people,
O house of Israel.


22 And behold, this people will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the covenant which I made with your father Jacob; and it shall be a New Jerusalem.
And the powers of heaven shall be in the midst of this people; yea,
even I will be in the midst of you.



Elder Dyer added, "For Zion, `the New Jerusalem,' is yet to be built, and it is to be `a land of peace, a city of refuge, a place of safety for the saints of the Most High God'" ("Center Place of Zion," 8; D&C 45:66).

D&C 45
65 And with one heart and with one mind, gather up your riches that ye may purchase an inheritance which shall hereafter be appointed unto you.
66 And it shall be called the New Jerusalem, a land of peace, a city of refuge, a place of safety for the saints of the Most High God;
67 And the glory of the Lord shall be there, and the terror of the Lord also shall be there, insomuch that the wicked will not come unto it,
and it shall be called Zion.
68 And it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety.
69 And there shall be gathered unto it out of every nation under heaven; and it shall be the only people that shall not be at war one with another.


D&C 42

35 And for the purpose of purchasing lands for the public benefit of the church, and building houses of worship, and building up of the
New Jerusalem which is hereafter to be revealed—

36 That my covenant people may be gathered in one in that day
when I shall come to my temple.
And this I do for the salvation of my people.

62 Thou shalt ask, and it shall be revealed unto you in mine own due time where the New Jerusalem shall be built.

67 And ye shall hereafter receive church covenants, such as shall be sufficient to establish you, both here and in the New Jerusalem.


Independence Jackson County, Missouri

D&C 97
21 Therefore, verily, thus saith the Lord, let Zion rejoice,
for this is Zion—the pure in heart; therefore,
let Zion rejoice, while all the wicked shall mourn.

Doctrine and Covenants 57
1 Hearken, O ye elders of my church, saith the Lord your God, who have assembled yourselves together, according to my commandments,
in this land, which is the land of Missouri, which is the land which I have appointed and consecrated for the gathering of the saints.
2 Wherefore, this is the land of promise, and the place for the city of Zion.
3 And thus saith the Lord your God, if you will receive wisdom here is wisdom. Behold,
the place which is now called Independence is the center place; and a spot for the temple is lying westward, upon a lot which is not far from the courthouse.


Doctrine and Covenants 101

18 They that remain, and are pure in heart, shall return, and come to their inheritances, they and their children, with songs of everlasting joy,
to build up the waste places of Zion—

19 And all these things that the prophets might be fulfilled.

20 And, behold, there is none other place appointed than that which I have appointed; neither shall there be any other place appointed than that which I have appointed, for the work of the gathering of my saints—

21 Until the day cometh when there is found no more room for them; and then I have other places which I will appoint unto them, and they shall be called stakes, for the curtains or the strength of Zion.

71 All the land which can be purchased in Jackson county, and the counties round about, and leave the residue in mine hand.


Doctrine and Covenants 105:28
28 And to have sent wise men, to fulfil that which I have commanded concerning the purchasing of all the lands in Jackson county that can be purchased, and in the adjoining counties round about.

Doctrine and Covenants 124
39 Therefore, verily I say unto you, that your anointings, and your washings, and your baptisms for the dead, and your solemn assemblies, and your memorials for your sacrifices by the sons of Levi, and for your oracles in your most holy places wherein you receive conversations, and your statutes and judgments,
for the beginning of the revelations and foundation of Zion, and for the glory, honor, and endowment of all her municipals, are ordained by the ordinance of my holy house, which my people are always commanded to build unto my holy name.

51 Therefore, for this cause have I accepted the offerings of those whom I commanded to build up a city and a house unto my name, in Jackson county, Missouri, and were hindered by their enemies, saith the Lord your God.

Re: What the Future of Mormonism ought to be.

Posted: March 26th, 2022, 10:27 pm
by Being There
Isaiah 28

2 My Lord has in store one mighty and strong:
as a ravaging hailstorm sweeping down,
or like an inundating deluge of mighty waters,
he will hurl them to the ground by his hand.

The imagery of “a ravaging hailstorm sweeping down” and of “an inundating deluge of mighty waters” identifies the king of Assyria/Babylon and his alliance of aggressor nations (Isaiah 8:7-8; 17:12; 18:2). A second “one mighty and strong” in the Book of Isaiah is Jehovah’s servant,
who makes an end of him at the last.

Although Jehovah provides a refuge for a repentant remnant of his people against the storms of their enemies
(Isaiah 4:6; 25:4-5; 57:13), he empowers the archtyrant—Jehovah’s (left) hand—over “the drunkards of Ephraim” to cast their illustriousness to the ground (cf. vv 1, 3).

The Lord will provide places of refuge - "where she hath a place prepared of God"

Revelation 12
"the woman" is the righteous remnant

Revelation 12
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
(the "woman" is the righteous saints)
(A thousand two hundred and threescore days is 1,260 days
(a score equals 20),
1,260 days (which is 42 months, or 3 1/2 years.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(repentant remnant from the righteous saints)


Unrepentant saints - bondage for " a time and times and the dividing of time" "forty and two months"
(3 1/2 years)

Daniel 7:
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand
until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Revelation 13:
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

"time" equals 1.
"times" equals 2.
" a dividing of time" equals 1/2.
If you add up 1+2+1/2, that equals 3 1/2 years.

The tribulation is 7 years. 3 1/2 + 3 1/2 = 7

A thousand two hundred and threescore days is 1,260 days
(a score equals 20),
1,260 days (which is 42 months, or 3 1/2 years.

Isaiah 33

14 The sinners in Zion are struck with fear;
the godless are in the grip of trembling:
Who among us can live through the devouring fire?
Who among us can abide eternal burning?

When a Sodom-and-Gomorrah type of destruction materializes, the wicked who dwell with Jehovah’s people “in Zion” give way to fear and trembling. Spiritually and physically unprepared for calamity, they realize with trepidation that their end is near. Their disloyalty to Jehovah prevents them from believing that “whatever weapon is devised against you, it shall not succeed” (Isaiah 54:17), or that “whoever wars against you shall be reduced to nothing” (Isaiah 41:12). Physical fire—at the hands of the king of Assyria/Babylon—and “eternal burning” in the hereafter await them.

15 They who conduct themselves righteously
and are honest in word,
who disdain extortion
and stay their hand from taking bribes,
who stop their ears at the mention of murder,
who shut their eyes at the sight of wickedness.
16 They shall dwell on high;
the impregnable cliffs are their fortress.
Bread is provided them, their water is sure.

Those who survive the devouring fire are Jehovah’s elect, his holy and valiant ones (Isaiah 4:4; 13:3, 19; 14:30-32). Although they live in a wicked society—amidst “extortion,” “bribes,” “murder,” and “wickedness”—they exercise scrupulous integrity.
They are a people apart, made up of individuals determined to maintain justice and righteousness at all costs (Isaiah 26:7; 57:2; 61:7-9).
Even in their wilderness retreat, food and water remain covenant blessings (Isaiah 7:21-22; 41:17-18; 49:9-10): “Tell the righteous it shall be well with them; they shall eat the fruits of their own labors” (Isaiah 3:10).

"When the Savior was speaking to his disciples they wanted to know the signs of his coming and of the end of the world. He told them many things: there would be False Christs, wars and rumors of wars, famines and earthquakes, and the gospel would be preached in all the world for the last time. (Matthew 24).
The chronology is all jumbled and out of order.
Luke gives a similar account but it is better, especially because Joseph Smith translated and corrected some of the verses:

Luke 17:26-37

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot’s wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The Savior is talking about the time just before the tribulation begins. In fact, he is talking about the time just before the civil war and unrest begin in the United States. He refers to his coming as the beginning of the days of tribulation and judgment so before he begins either, people are living pretty much as normal.
But in one night at the beginning of the tribulation, there is a massive leaving of people: one from bed, one from the field, and so on. The disciples ask the obvious question, "Where are they taken?" The Lord answers with another riddle. He tells them that where the body is, the eagles will be gathered together.
The Joseph Smith translation gives the explanation:

Joseph Smith translation
JST, Luke 17:36–38.
Compare Luke 17:37

36 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord, shall they be taken?

37 And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is gathered; or, in other words, whithersoever the saints are gathered, thither will the eagles be gathered together; or, thither will the remainder be gathered together.

38 This he spake, signifying the gathering of his saints; and of angels descending and gathering the remainder unto them; the one from the bed, the other from the grinding, and the other from the field, whithersoever he listeth.

This is the manner in which the exodus will take place.
The eagle wings given to the woman are the angels who gather the righteous remnant in one night and transport them to the wilderness where the saints are collected into one body.
Eagles refer to angels or to translated beings in Hebrew metaphorical language.
The eagles are also the righteous ones who are gathered out in this miraculous manner and taken to the wilderness. Isaiah says:

Isaiah 40:
31 But they who hope in Jehovah shall be renewed in strength:they shall ascend as on eagles’ wings;they shall run without wearying,they shall walk and not faint.

And

Isaiah 60:
8 Who are these, aloft like clouds,flying as doves to their portals?

This is the fulfillment of the promise in the oath and covenant of the priesthood. It is realized by those who are taken on the exodus because there will be the elderly, the infirm and the very young. All will be renewed in their bodies and translated during the course of the exodus. The gathering of the eagles will occur in one night or day, depending on which hemisphere you are in, so some will be in the fields while others will be sleeping.
The righteous remnant who are to go on the exodus will be taken from the worthy members wherever they are in the world. Unlike the first exodus, however, the people will not take any possessions or supplies. They will go in the clothing they are wearing and will not be allowed to go back for their "stuff". The Lord will provide for the people. He will place a canopy over them to protect from the sun and the other elements:

Isaiah 4

5 Over the whole site of Mount Zion, and over its solemn assembly, Jehovah will form a cloud by day and a mist glowing with fire by night: above all that is glorious shall be a canopy.

Those who sanctify themselves, who participate in Zion’s “solemn assembly,” enjoy Jehovah’s divine protection in the place Zion, also called “Mount Zion” (Isaiah 8:13-14, Isaiah 8:13-14, 18; 24:23; 24:23). Jehovah’s cloud of glory—signifying his presence (Exodus 24:15-18; 33:8-11)—makes glorious his holy people and the place where they abide. By its means, Jehovah protected ancient Israel when he appeared among his people during their wilderness travels (Exodus 13:20-22; 14:19-20). Jehovah’s “canopy”—as in a traditional marriage canopy—denotes his people’s renewal of their covenant with him at that time.

6 It shall be a shelter and shade from the heat of the day, a secret refuge from the downpour and from rain.

Jehovah’s cloud of glory (v 5) acts as a shelter, shade, and secret refuge from the heat and downpour—that is, from the elements and from the king of Assyria/Babylon in Jehovah’s Day of Judgment (Isaiah 25:4-5). As Pharaoh’s armies were unable to penetrate the cloud when they pursued after Jehovah’s people (Exodus 14:19-20), so in that day will no enemies molest those who participate in Zion’s solemn assemblies. According to the terms of his covenant, Jehovah is obligated to protect his people when they keep his law and word.
His divine intervention attests to their utmost compliance.


Joseph Smith: "...without Zion, and a place of deliverance, we must fall; because the time is near when the sun will be darkened, and the moon turn to blood, and the stars fall from the heaven, and the earth reel to and fro. Then, if this is the case, and if we are not sanctified and gathered to the places God has appointed, with all our former professions and our great love for the Bible, we must fall; we cannot stand; we cannot be saved; for God will gather out his Saints from the Gentiles, and then comes desolation and destruction, and none can escape except the pure in heart who are gathered." --DHC 2:52

Re: What the Future of Mormonism ought to be.

Posted: March 26th, 2022, 11:20 pm
by Being There
D&C 45

22 Ye say that ye know that the end of the world cometh; ye say also that ye know that the heavens and the earth shall pass away;
23 And in this ye say truly, for so it is; but these things which I have told you shall not pass away until all shall be fulfilled.
24 And this I have told you concerning Jerusalem; and when that day shall come, shall a remnant be scattered among all nations;
25 But they shall be gathered again; but they shall remain until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
26 And in that day shall be heard of wars and rumors of wars, and the whole earth shall be in commotion, and men’s hearts shall fail them, and they shall say that Christ delayeth his coming until the end of the earth.
27 And the love of men shall wax cold, and iniquity shall abound.
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness,
and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

29 But they receive it not; for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me
because of the precepts of men
.
30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass
until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

32 But my disciples shall stand in holy places, and shall not be moved; but among the wicked, men shall lift up their voices and curse God and die.
33 And there shall be earthquakes also in divers places, and many desolations; yet men will harden their hearts against me, and they will take up the sword, one against another, and they will kill one another.
34 And now, when I the Lord had spoken these words unto my disciples, they were troubled.
35 And I said unto them: Be not troubled, for, when all these things shall come to pass, ye may know that the promises which have been made unto you shall be fulfilled.
36 And when the light shall begin to break forth, it shall be with them like unto a parable which I will show you—
37 Ye look and behold the figtrees, and ye see them with your eyes, and ye say when they begin to shoot forth, and their leaves are yet tender, that summer is now nigh at hand;
38 Even so it shall be in that day when they shall see all these things, then shall they know that the hour is nigh.
39 And it shall come to pass that he that feareth me shall be looking forth for the great day of the Lord to come, even for the signs of the coming of the Son of Man.
40 And they shall see signs and wonders, for they shall be shown forth in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath.
41 And they shall behold blood, and fire, and vapors of smoke.
42 And before the day of the Lord shall come, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon be turned into blood, and the stars fall from heaven.
43 And the remnant shall be gathered unto this place;
44 And then they shall look for me, and, behold, I will come; and they shall see me in the clouds of heaven, clothed with power and great glory; with all the holy angels; and he that watches not for me shall be cut off.
45 But before the arm of the Lord shall fall, an angel shall sound his trump, and the saints that have slept shall come forth to meet me in the cloud.
46 Wherefore, if ye have slept in peace blessed are you; for as you now behold me and know that I am, even so shall ye come unto me and your souls shall live, and your redemption shall be perfected; and the saints shall come forth from the four quarters of the earth.
47 Then shall the arm of the Lord fall upon the nations.
48 And then shall the Lord set his foot upon this mount, and it shall cleave in twain, and the earth shall tremble, and reel to and fro, and the heavens also shall shake.
49 And the Lord shall utter his voice, and all the ends of the earth shall hear it; and the nations of the earth shall mourn, and they that have laughed shall see their folly.
50 And calamity shall cover the mocker, and the scorner shall be consumed; and they that have watched for iniquity shall be hewn down and cast into the fire.
51 And then shall the Jews look upon me and say: What are these wounds in thine hands and in thy feet?
52 Then shall they know that I am the Lord; for I will say unto them: These wounds are the wounds with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. I am he who was lifted up. I am Jesus that was crucified. I am the Son of God.
53 And then shall they weep because of their iniquities; then shall they lament because they persecuted their king.
54 And then shall the heathen nations be redeemed, and they that knew no law shall have part in the first resurrection; and it shall be tolerable for them.
55 And Satan shall be bound, that he shall have no place in the hearts of the children of men.
56 And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.
57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.
58 And the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance; and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation.
59 For the Lord shall be in their midst, and his glory shall be upon them, and he will be their king and their lawgiver.
60 And now, behold, I say unto you, it shall not be given unto you to know any further concerning this chapter, until the New Testament be translated, and in it all these things shall be made known;
61 Wherefore I give unto you that ye may now translate it, that ye may be prepared for the things to come.
62 For verily I say unto you, that great things await you;
63 Ye hear of wars in foreign lands; but, behold, I say unto you, they are nigh, even at your doors, and not many years hence ye shall hear of wars in your own lands.
64 Wherefore I, the Lord, have said, gather ye out from the eastern lands, assemble ye yourselves together ye elders of my church; go ye forth into the western countries, call upon the inhabitants to repent, and inasmuch as they do repent, build up churches unto me.
65 And with one heart and with one mind, gather up your riches that ye may purchase an inheritance which shall hereafter be appointed unto you.
66 And it shall be called the New Jerusalem, a land of peace, a city of refuge, a place of safety for the saints of the Most High God;
67 And the glory of the Lord shall be there, and the terror of the Lord also shall be there, insomuch that the wicked will not come unto it, and it shall be called Zion.
68 And it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety.
69 And there shall be gathered unto it out of every nation under heaven; and it shall be the only people that shall not be at war one with another.
70 And it shall be said among the wicked: Let us not go up to battle against Zion, for the inhabitants of Zion are terrible; wherefore we cannot stand.
71 And it shall come to pass that the righteous shall be gathered out from among all nations, and shall come to Zion, singing with songs of everlasting joy.
72 And now I say unto you, keep these things from going abroad unto the world until it is expedient in me, that ye may accomplish this work in the eyes of the people, and in the eyes of your enemies, that they may not know your works until ye have accomplished the thing which I have commanded you;
73 That when they shall know it, that they may consider these things.
74 For when the Lord shall appear he shall be terrible unto them, that fear may seize upon them, and they shall stand afar off and tremble.
75 And all nations shall be afraid because of the terror of the Lord, and the power of his might. Even so. Amen.

Re: What the Future of Mormonism ought to be.

Posted: March 27th, 2022, 12:13 am
by InfoWarrior82
Being There wrote: March 26th, 2022, 10:27 pm Isaiah 28

2 My Lord has in store one mighty and strong:
as a ravaging hailstorm sweeping down,
or like an inundating deluge of mighty waters,
he will hurl them to the ground by his hand.

The imagery of “a ravaging hailstorm sweeping down” and of “an inundating deluge of mighty waters” identifies the king of Assyria/Babylon and his alliance of aggressor nations (Isaiah 8:7-8; 17:12; 18:2). A second “one mighty and strong” in the Book of Isaiah is Jehovah’s servant,
who makes an end of him at the last.

Although Jehovah provides a refuge for a repentant remnant of his people against the storms of their enemies
(Isaiah 4:6; 25:4-5; 57:13), he empowers the archtyrant—Jehovah’s (left) hand—over “the drunkards of Ephraim” to cast their illustriousness to the ground (cf. vv 1, 3).

The Lord will provide places of refuge - "where she hath a place prepared of God"

Revelation 12
"the woman" is the righteous remnant

Revelation 12
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
(the "woman" is the righteous saints)
(A thousand two hundred and threescore days is 1,260 days
(a score equals 20),
1,260 days (which is 42 months, or 3 1/2 years.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(repentant remnant from the righteous saints)


Unrepentant saints - bondage for " a time and times and the dividing of time" "forty and two months"
(3 1/2 years)

Daniel 7:
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand
until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Revelation 13:
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

"time" equals 1.
"times" equals 2.
" a dividing of time" equals 1/2.
If you add up 1+2+1/2, that equals 3 1/2 years.

The tribulation is 7 years. 3 1/2 + 3 1/2 = 7

A thousand two hundred and threescore days is 1,260 days
(a score equals 20),
1,260 days (which is 42 months, or 3 1/2 years.

Isaiah 33

14 The sinners in Zion are struck with fear;
the godless are in the grip of trembling:
Who among us can live through the devouring fire?
Who among us can abide eternal burning?

When a Sodom-and-Gomorrah type of destruction materializes, the wicked who dwell with Jehovah’s people “in Zion” give way to fear and trembling. Spiritually and physically unprepared for calamity, they realize with trepidation that their end is near. Their disloyalty to Jehovah prevents them from believing that “whatever weapon is devised against you, it shall not succeed” (Isaiah 54:17), or that “whoever wars against you shall be reduced to nothing” (Isaiah 41:12). Physical fire—at the hands of the king of Assyria/Babylon—and “eternal burning” in the hereafter await them.

15 They who conduct themselves righteously
and are honest in word,
who disdain extortion
and stay their hand from taking bribes,
who stop their ears at the mention of murder,
who shut their eyes at the sight of wickedness.
16 They shall dwell on high;
the impregnable cliffs are their fortress.
Bread is provided them, their water is sure.

Those who survive the devouring fire are Jehovah’s elect, his holy and valiant ones (Isaiah 4:4; 13:3, 19; 14:30-32). Although they live in a wicked society—amidst “extortion,” “bribes,” “murder,” and “wickedness”—they exercise scrupulous integrity.
They are a people apart, made up of individuals determined to maintain justice and righteousness at all costs (Isaiah 26:7; 57:2; 61:7-9).
Even in their wilderness retreat, food and water remain covenant blessings (Isaiah 7:21-22; 41:17-18; 49:9-10): “Tell the righteous it shall be well with them; they shall eat the fruits of their own labors” (Isaiah 3:10).

"When the Savior was speaking to his disciples they wanted to know the signs of his coming and of the end of the world. He told them many things: there would be False Christs, wars and rumors of wars, famines and earthquakes, and the gospel would be preached in all the world for the last time. (Matthew 24).
The chronology is all jumbled and out of order.
Luke gives a similar account but it is better, especially because Joseph Smith translated and corrected some of the verses:

Luke 17:26-37

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot’s wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The Savior is talking about the time just before the tribulation begins. In fact, he is talking about the time just before the civil war and unrest begin in the United States. He refers to his coming as the beginning of the days of tribulation and judgment so before he begins either, people are living pretty much as normal.
But in one night at the beginning of the tribulation, there is a massive leaving of people: one from bed, one from the field, and so on. The disciples ask the obvious question, "Where are they taken?" The Lord answers with another riddle. He tells them that where the body is, the eagles will be gathered together.
The Joseph Smith translation gives the explanation:

Joseph Smith translation
JST, Luke 17:36–38.
Compare Luke 17:37

36 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord, shall they be taken?

37 And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is gathered; or, in other words, whithersoever the saints are gathered, thither will the eagles be gathered together; or, thither will the remainder be gathered together.

38 This he spake, signifying the gathering of his saints; and of angels descending and gathering the remainder unto them; the one from the bed, the other from the grinding, and the other from the field, whithersoever he listeth.

This is the manner in which the exodus will take place.
The eagle wings given to the woman are the angels who gather the righteous remnant in one night and transport them to the wilderness where the saints are collected into one body.
Eagles refer to angels or to translated beings in Hebrew metaphorical language.
The eagles are also the righteous ones who are gathered out in this miraculous manner and taken to the wilderness. Isaiah says:

Isaiah 40:
31 But they who hope in Jehovah shall be renewed in strength:they shall ascend as on eagles’ wings;they shall run without wearying,they shall walk and not faint.

And

Isaiah 60:
8 Who are these, aloft like clouds,flying as doves to their portals?

This is the fulfillment of the promise in the oath and covenant of the priesthood. It is realized by those who are taken on the exodus because there will be the elderly, the infirm and the very young. All will be renewed in their bodies and translated during the course of the exodus. The gathering of the eagles will occur in one night or day, depending on which hemisphere you are in, so some will be in the fields while others will be sleeping.
The righteous remnant who are to go on the exodus will be taken from the worthy members wherever they are in the world. Unlike the first exodus, however, the people will not take any possessions or supplies. They will go in the clothing they are wearing and will not be allowed to go back for their "stuff". The Lord will provide for the people. He will place a canopy over them to protect from the sun and the other elements:

Isaiah 4

5 Over the whole site of Mount Zion, and over its solemn assembly, Jehovah will form a cloud by day and a mist glowing with fire by night: above all that is glorious shall be a canopy.

Those who sanctify themselves, who participate in Zion’s “solemn assembly,” enjoy Jehovah’s divine protection in the place Zion, also called “Mount Zion” (Isaiah 8:13-14, Isaiah 8:13-14, 18; 24:23; 24:23). Jehovah’s cloud of glory—signifying his presence (Exodus 24:15-18; 33:8-11)—makes glorious his holy people and the place where they abide. By its means, Jehovah protected ancient Israel when he appeared among his people during their wilderness travels (Exodus 13:20-22; 14:19-20). Jehovah’s “canopy”—as in a traditional marriage canopy—denotes his people’s renewal of their covenant with him at that time.

6 It shall be a shelter and shade from the heat of the day, a secret refuge from the downpour and from rain.

Jehovah’s cloud of glory (v 5) acts as a shelter, shade, and secret refuge from the heat and downpour—that is, from the elements and from the king of Assyria/Babylon in Jehovah’s Day of Judgment (Isaiah 25:4-5). As Pharaoh’s armies were unable to penetrate the cloud when they pursued after Jehovah’s people (Exodus 14:19-20), so in that day will no enemies molest those who participate in Zion’s solemn assemblies. According to the terms of his covenant, Jehovah is obligated to protect his people when they keep his law and word.
His divine intervention attests to their utmost compliance.


Joseph Smith: "...without Zion, and a place of deliverance, we must fall; because the time is near when the sun will be darkened, and the moon turn to blood, and the stars fall from the heaven, and the earth reel to and fro. Then, if this is the case, and if we are not sanctified and gathered to the places God has appointed, with all our former professions and our great love for the Bible, we must fall; we cannot stand; we cannot be saved; for God will gather out his Saints from the Gentiles, and then comes desolation and destruction, and none can escape except the pure in heart who are gathered." --DHC 2:52
Spirit, is that you???

Re: What the Future of Mormonism ought to be.

Posted: March 27th, 2022, 5:33 am
by Robin Hood
InfoWarrior82 wrote: March 27th, 2022, 12:13 am
Being There wrote: March 26th, 2022, 10:27 pm Isaiah 28

2 My Lord has in store one mighty and strong:
as a ravaging hailstorm sweeping down,
or like an inundating deluge of mighty waters,
he will hurl them to the ground by his hand.

The imagery of “a ravaging hailstorm sweeping down” and of “an inundating deluge of mighty waters” identifies the king of Assyria/Babylon and his alliance of aggressor nations (Isaiah 8:7-8; 17:12; 18:2). A second “one mighty and strong” in the Book of Isaiah is Jehovah’s servant,
who makes an end of him at the last.

Although Jehovah provides a refuge for a repentant remnant of his people against the storms of their enemies
(Isaiah 4:6; 25:4-5; 57:13), he empowers the archtyrant—Jehovah’s (left) hand—over “the drunkards of Ephraim” to cast their illustriousness to the ground (cf. vv 1, 3).

The Lord will provide places of refuge - "where she hath a place prepared of God"

Revelation 12
"the woman" is the righteous remnant

Revelation 12
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
(the "woman" is the righteous saints)
(A thousand two hundred and threescore days is 1,260 days
(a score equals 20),
1,260 days (which is 42 months, or 3 1/2 years.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(repentant remnant from the righteous saints)


Unrepentant saints - bondage for " a time and times and the dividing of time" "forty and two months"
(3 1/2 years)

Daniel 7:
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand
until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Revelation 13:
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

"time" equals 1.
"times" equals 2.
" a dividing of time" equals 1/2.
If you add up 1+2+1/2, that equals 3 1/2 years.

The tribulation is 7 years. 3 1/2 + 3 1/2 = 7

A thousand two hundred and threescore days is 1,260 days
(a score equals 20),
1,260 days (which is 42 months, or 3 1/2 years.

Isaiah 33

14 The sinners in Zion are struck with fear;
the godless are in the grip of trembling:
Who among us can live through the devouring fire?
Who among us can abide eternal burning?

When a Sodom-and-Gomorrah type of destruction materializes, the wicked who dwell with Jehovah’s people “in Zion” give way to fear and trembling. Spiritually and physically unprepared for calamity, they realize with trepidation that their end is near. Their disloyalty to Jehovah prevents them from believing that “whatever weapon is devised against you, it shall not succeed” (Isaiah 54:17), or that “whoever wars against you shall be reduced to nothing” (Isaiah 41:12). Physical fire—at the hands of the king of Assyria/Babylon—and “eternal burning” in the hereafter await them.

15 They who conduct themselves righteously
and are honest in word,
who disdain extortion
and stay their hand from taking bribes,
who stop their ears at the mention of murder,
who shut their eyes at the sight of wickedness.
16 They shall dwell on high;
the impregnable cliffs are their fortress.
Bread is provided them, their water is sure.

Those who survive the devouring fire are Jehovah’s elect, his holy and valiant ones (Isaiah 4:4; 13:3, 19; 14:30-32). Although they live in a wicked society—amidst “extortion,” “bribes,” “murder,” and “wickedness”—they exercise scrupulous integrity.
They are a people apart, made up of individuals determined to maintain justice and righteousness at all costs (Isaiah 26:7; 57:2; 61:7-9).
Even in their wilderness retreat, food and water remain covenant blessings (Isaiah 7:21-22; 41:17-18; 49:9-10): “Tell the righteous it shall be well with them; they shall eat the fruits of their own labors” (Isaiah 3:10).

"When the Savior was speaking to his disciples they wanted to know the signs of his coming and of the end of the world. He told them many things: there would be False Christs, wars and rumors of wars, famines and earthquakes, and the gospel would be preached in all the world for the last time. (Matthew 24).
The chronology is all jumbled and out of order.
Luke gives a similar account but it is better, especially because Joseph Smith translated and corrected some of the verses:

Luke 17:26-37

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot’s wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The Savior is talking about the time just before the tribulation begins. In fact, he is talking about the time just before the civil war and unrest begin in the United States. He refers to his coming as the beginning of the days of tribulation and judgment so before he begins either, people are living pretty much as normal.
But in one night at the beginning of the tribulation, there is a massive leaving of people: one from bed, one from the field, and so on. The disciples ask the obvious question, "Where are they taken?" The Lord answers with another riddle. He tells them that where the body is, the eagles will be gathered together.
The Joseph Smith translation gives the explanation:

Joseph Smith translation
JST, Luke 17:36–38.
Compare Luke 17:37

36 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord, shall they be taken?

37 And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is gathered; or, in other words, whithersoever the saints are gathered, thither will the eagles be gathered together; or, thither will the remainder be gathered together.

38 This he spake, signifying the gathering of his saints; and of angels descending and gathering the remainder unto them; the one from the bed, the other from the grinding, and the other from the field, whithersoever he listeth.

This is the manner in which the exodus will take place.
The eagle wings given to the woman are the angels who gather the righteous remnant in one night and transport them to the wilderness where the saints are collected into one body.
Eagles refer to angels or to translated beings in Hebrew metaphorical language.
The eagles are also the righteous ones who are gathered out in this miraculous manner and taken to the wilderness. Isaiah says:

Isaiah 40:
31 But they who hope in Jehovah shall be renewed in strength:they shall ascend as on eagles’ wings;they shall run without wearying,they shall walk and not faint.

And

Isaiah 60:
8 Who are these, aloft like clouds,flying as doves to their portals?

This is the fulfillment of the promise in the oath and covenant of the priesthood. It is realized by those who are taken on the exodus because there will be the elderly, the infirm and the very young. All will be renewed in their bodies and translated during the course of the exodus. The gathering of the eagles will occur in one night or day, depending on which hemisphere you are in, so some will be in the fields while others will be sleeping.
The righteous remnant who are to go on the exodus will be taken from the worthy members wherever they are in the world. Unlike the first exodus, however, the people will not take any possessions or supplies. They will go in the clothing they are wearing and will not be allowed to go back for their "stuff". The Lord will provide for the people. He will place a canopy over them to protect from the sun and the other elements:

Isaiah 4

5 Over the whole site of Mount Zion, and over its solemn assembly, Jehovah will form a cloud by day and a mist glowing with fire by night: above all that is glorious shall be a canopy.

Those who sanctify themselves, who participate in Zion’s “solemn assembly,” enjoy Jehovah’s divine protection in the place Zion, also called “Mount Zion” (Isaiah 8:13-14, Isaiah 8:13-14, 18; 24:23; 24:23). Jehovah’s cloud of glory—signifying his presence (Exodus 24:15-18; 33:8-11)—makes glorious his holy people and the place where they abide. By its means, Jehovah protected ancient Israel when he appeared among his people during their wilderness travels (Exodus 13:20-22; 14:19-20). Jehovah’s “canopy”—as in a traditional marriage canopy—denotes his people’s renewal of their covenant with him at that time.

6 It shall be a shelter and shade from the heat of the day, a secret refuge from the downpour and from rain.

Jehovah’s cloud of glory (v 5) acts as a shelter, shade, and secret refuge from the heat and downpour—that is, from the elements and from the king of Assyria/Babylon in Jehovah’s Day of Judgment (Isaiah 25:4-5). As Pharaoh’s armies were unable to penetrate the cloud when they pursued after Jehovah’s people (Exodus 14:19-20), so in that day will no enemies molest those who participate in Zion’s solemn assemblies. According to the terms of his covenant, Jehovah is obligated to protect his people when they keep his law and word.
His divine intervention attests to their utmost compliance.


Joseph Smith: "...without Zion, and a place of deliverance, we must fall; because the time is near when the sun will be darkened, and the moon turn to blood, and the stars fall from the heaven, and the earth reel to and fro. Then, if this is the case, and if we are not sanctified and gathered to the places God has appointed, with all our former professions and our great love for the Bible, we must fall; we cannot stand; we cannot be saved; for God will gather out his Saints from the Gentiles, and then comes desolation and destruction, and none can escape except the pure in heart who are gathered." --DHC 2:52
Spirit, is that you???
It has to be!

Re: What the Future of Mormonism ought to be.

Posted: March 27th, 2022, 6:49 am
by BeNotDeceived
Robin Hood wrote: March 27th, 2022, 5:33 am
InfoWarrior82 wrote: March 27th, 2022, 12:13 am
Being There wrote: March 26th, 2022, 10:27 pm Isaiah 28

2 My Lord has in store one mighty and strong:
as a ravaging hailstorm sweeping down,
or like an inundating deluge of mighty waters,
he will hurl them to the ground by his hand.

The imagery of “a ravaging hailstorm sweeping down” and of “an inundating deluge of mighty waters” identifies the king of Assyria/Babylon and his alliance of aggressor nations (Isaiah 8:7-8; 17:12; 18:2). A second “one mighty and strong” in the Book of Isaiah is Jehovah’s servant,
who makes an end of him at the last.

Although Jehovah provides a refuge for a repentant remnant of his people against the storms of their enemies
(Isaiah 4:6; 25:4-5; 57:13), he empowers the archtyrant—Jehovah’s (left) hand—over “the drunkards of Ephraim” to cast their illustriousness to the ground (cf. vv 1, 3).

The Lord will provide places of refuge - "where she hath a place prepared of God"

Revelation 12
"the woman" is the righteous remnant

Revelation 12
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
(the "woman" is the righteous saints)
(A thousand two hundred and threescore days is 1,260 days
(a score equals 20),
1,260 days (which is 42 months, or 3 1/2 years.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(repentant remnant from the righteous saints)


Unrepentant saints - bondage for " a time and times and the dividing of time" "forty and two months"
(3 1/2 years)

Daniel 7:
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand
until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Revelation 13:
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

"time" equals 1.
"times" equals 2.
" a dividing of time" equals 1/2.
If you add up 1+2+1/2, that equals 3 1/2 years.

The tribulation is 7 years. 3 1/2 + 3 1/2 = 7

A thousand two hundred and threescore days is 1,260 days
(a score equals 20),
1,260 days (which is 42 months, or 3 1/2 years.

Isaiah 33

14 The sinners in Zion are struck with fear;
the godless are in the grip of trembling:
Who among us can live through the devouring fire?
Who among us can abide eternal burning?

When a Sodom-and-Gomorrah type of destruction materializes, the wicked who dwell with Jehovah’s people “in Zion” give way to fear and trembling. Spiritually and physically unprepared for calamity, they realize with trepidation that their end is near. Their disloyalty to Jehovah prevents them from believing that “whatever weapon is devised against you, it shall not succeed” (Isaiah 54:17), or that “whoever wars against you shall be reduced to nothing” (Isaiah 41:12). Physical fire—at the hands of the king of Assyria/Babylon—and “eternal burning” in the hereafter await them.

15 They who conduct themselves righteously
and are honest in word,
who disdain extortion
and stay their hand from taking bribes,
who stop their ears at the mention of murder,
who shut their eyes at the sight of wickedness.
16 They shall dwell on high;
the impregnable cliffs are their fortress.
Bread is provided them, their water is sure.

Those who survive the devouring fire are Jehovah’s elect, his holy and valiant ones (Isaiah 4:4; 13:3, 19; 14:30-32). Although they live in a wicked society—amidst “extortion,” “bribes,” “murder,” and “wickedness”—they exercise scrupulous integrity.
They are a people apart, made up of individuals determined to maintain justice and righteousness at all costs (Isaiah 26:7; 57:2; 61:7-9).
Even in their wilderness retreat, food and water remain covenant blessings (Isaiah 7:21-22; 41:17-18; 49:9-10): “Tell the righteous it shall be well with them; they shall eat the fruits of their own labors” (Isaiah 3:10).

"When the Savior was speaking to his disciples they wanted to know the signs of his coming and of the end of the world. He told them many things: there would be False Christs, wars and rumors of wars, famines and earthquakes, and the gospel would be preached in all the world for the last time. (Matthew 24).
The chronology is all jumbled and out of order.
Luke gives a similar account but it is better, especially because Joseph Smith translated and corrected some of the verses:

Luke 17:26-37

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot’s wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The Savior is talking about the time just before the tribulation begins. In fact, he is talking about the time just before the civil war and unrest begin in the United States. He refers to his coming as the beginning of the days of tribulation and judgment so before he begins either, people are living pretty much as normal.
But in one night at the beginning of the tribulation, there is a massive leaving of people: one from bed, one from the field, and so on. The disciples ask the obvious question, "Where are they taken?" The Lord answers with another riddle. He tells them that where the body is, the eagles will be gathered together.
The Joseph Smith translation gives the explanation:

Joseph Smith translation
JST, Luke 17:36–38.
Compare Luke 17:37

36 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord, shall they be taken?

37 And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is gathered; or, in other words, whithersoever the saints are gathered, thither will the eagles be gathered together; or, thither will the remainder be gathered together.

38 This he spake, signifying the gathering of his saints; and of angels descending and gathering the remainder unto them; the one from the bed, the other from the grinding, and the other from the field, whithersoever he listeth.

This is the manner in which the exodus will take place.
The eagle wings given to the woman are the angels who gather the righteous remnant in one night and transport them to the wilderness where the saints are collected into one body.
Eagles refer to angels or to translated beings in Hebrew metaphorical language.
The eagles are also the righteous ones who are gathered out in this miraculous manner and taken to the wilderness. Isaiah says:

Isaiah 40:
31 But they who hope in Jehovah shall be renewed in strength:they shall ascend as on eagles’ wings;they shall run without wearying,they shall walk and not faint.

And

Isaiah 60:
8 Who are these, aloft like clouds,flying as doves to their portals?

This is the fulfillment of the promise in the oath and covenant of the priesthood. It is realized by those who are taken on the exodus because there will be the elderly, the infirm and the very young. All will be renewed in their bodies and translated during the course of the exodus. The gathering of the eagles will occur in one night or day, depending on which hemisphere you are in, so some will be in the fields while others will be sleeping.
The righteous remnant who are to go on the exodus will be taken from the worthy members wherever they are in the world. Unlike the first exodus, however, the people will not take any possessions or supplies. They will go in the clothing they are wearing and will not be allowed to go back for their "stuff". The Lord will provide for the people. He will place a canopy over them to protect from the sun and the other elements:

Isaiah 4

5 Over the whole site of Mount Zion, and over its solemn assembly, Jehovah will form a cloud by day and a mist glowing with fire by night: above all that is glorious shall be a canopy.

Those who sanctify themselves, who participate in Zion’s “solemn assembly,” enjoy Jehovah’s divine protection in the place Zion, also called “Mount Zion” (Isaiah 8:13-14, Isaiah 8:13-14, 18; 24:23; 24:23). Jehovah’s cloud of glory—signifying his presence (Exodus 24:15-18; 33:8-11)—makes glorious his holy people and the place where they abide. By its means, Jehovah protected ancient Israel when he appeared among his people during their wilderness travels (Exodus 13:20-22; 14:19-20). Jehovah’s “canopy”—as in a traditional marriage canopy—denotes his people’s renewal of their covenant with him at that time.

6 It shall be a shelter and shade from the heat of the day, a secret refuge from the downpour and from rain.

Jehovah’s cloud of glory (v 5) acts as a shelter, shade, and secret refuge from the heat and downpour—that is, from the elements and from the king of Assyria/Babylon in Jehovah’s Day of Judgment (Isaiah 25:4-5). As Pharaoh’s armies were unable to penetrate the cloud when they pursued after Jehovah’s people (Exodus 14:19-20), so in that day will no enemies molest those who participate in Zion’s solemn assemblies. According to the terms of his covenant, Jehovah is obligated to protect his people when they keep his law and word.
His divine intervention attests to their utmost compliance.


Joseph Smith: "...without Zion, and a place of deliverance, we must fall; because the time is near when the sun will be darkened, and the moon turn to blood, and the stars fall from the heaven, and the earth reel to and fro. Then, if this is the case, and if we are not sanctified and gathered to the places God has appointed, with all our former professions and our great love for the Bible, we must fall; we cannot stand; we cannot be saved; for God will gather out his Saints from the Gentiles, and then comes desolation and destruction, and none can escape except the pure in heart who are gathered." --DHC 2:52
Spirit, is that you???
It has to be!
He do speak truth when he speaks Isaiah. 8-)

Re: What the Future of Mormonism ought to be.

Posted: March 27th, 2022, 8:20 am
by Being There
InfoWarrior82 wrote: March 27th, 2022, 12:13 am
Being There wrote: March 26th, 2022, 10:27 pm Isaiah 28

2 My Lord has in store one mighty and strong:
as a ravaging hailstorm sweeping down,
or like an inundating deluge of mighty waters,
he will hurl them to the ground by his hand.

The imagery of “a ravaging hailstorm sweeping down” and of “an inundating deluge of mighty waters” identifies the king of Assyria/Babylon and his alliance of aggressor nations (Isaiah 8:7-8; 17:12; 18:2). A second “one mighty and strong” in the Book of Isaiah is Jehovah’s servant,
who makes an end of him at the last.

Although Jehovah provides a refuge for a repentant remnant of his people against the storms of their enemies
(Isaiah 4:6; 25:4-5; 57:13), he empowers the archtyrant—Jehovah’s (left) hand—over “the drunkards of Ephraim” to cast their illustriousness to the ground (cf. vv 1, 3).

The Lord will provide places of refuge - "where she hath a place prepared of God"

Revelation 12
"the woman" is the righteous remnant

Revelation 12
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
(the "woman" is the righteous saints)
(A thousand two hundred and threescore days is 1,260 days
(a score equals 20),
1,260 days (which is 42 months, or 3 1/2 years.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(repentant remnant from the righteous saints)


Unrepentant saints - bondage for " a time and times and the dividing of time" "forty and two months"
(3 1/2 years)

Daniel 7:
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand
until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Revelation 13:
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

"time" equals 1.
"times" equals 2.
" a dividing of time" equals 1/2.
If you add up 1+2+1/2, that equals 3 1/2 years.

The tribulation is 7 years. 3 1/2 + 3 1/2 = 7

A thousand two hundred and threescore days is 1,260 days
(a score equals 20),
1,260 days (which is 42 months, or 3 1/2 years.

Isaiah 33

14 The sinners in Zion are struck with fear;
the godless are in the grip of trembling:
Who among us can live through the devouring fire?
Who among us can abide eternal burning?

When a Sodom-and-Gomorrah type of destruction materializes, the wicked who dwell with Jehovah’s people “in Zion” give way to fear and trembling. Spiritually and physically unprepared for calamity, they realize with trepidation that their end is near. Their disloyalty to Jehovah prevents them from believing that “whatever weapon is devised against you, it shall not succeed” (Isaiah 54:17), or that “whoever wars against you shall be reduced to nothing” (Isaiah 41:12). Physical fire—at the hands of the king of Assyria/Babylon—and “eternal burning” in the hereafter await them.

15 They who conduct themselves righteously
and are honest in word,
who disdain extortion
and stay their hand from taking bribes,
who stop their ears at the mention of murder,
who shut their eyes at the sight of wickedness.
16 They shall dwell on high;
the impregnable cliffs are their fortress.
Bread is provided them, their water is sure.

Those who survive the devouring fire are Jehovah’s elect, his holy and valiant ones (Isaiah 4:4; 13:3, 19; 14:30-32). Although they live in a wicked society—amidst “extortion,” “bribes,” “murder,” and “wickedness”—they exercise scrupulous integrity.
They are a people apart, made up of individuals determined to maintain justice and righteousness at all costs (Isaiah 26:7; 57:2; 61:7-9).
Even in their wilderness retreat, food and water remain covenant blessings (Isaiah 7:21-22; 41:17-18; 49:9-10): “Tell the righteous it shall be well with them; they shall eat the fruits of their own labors” (Isaiah 3:10).

"When the Savior was speaking to his disciples they wanted to know the signs of his coming and of the end of the world. He told them many things: there would be False Christs, wars and rumors of wars, famines and earthquakes, and the gospel would be preached in all the world for the last time. (Matthew 24).
The chronology is all jumbled and out of order.
Luke gives a similar account but it is better, especially because Joseph Smith translated and corrected some of the verses:

Luke 17:26-37

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot’s wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The Savior is talking about the time just before the tribulation begins. In fact, he is talking about the time just before the civil war and unrest begin in the United States. He refers to his coming as the beginning of the days of tribulation and judgment so before he begins either, people are living pretty much as normal.
But in one night at the beginning of the tribulation, there is a massive leaving of people: one from bed, one from the field, and so on. The disciples ask the obvious question, "Where are they taken?" The Lord answers with another riddle. He tells them that where the body is, the eagles will be gathered together.
The Joseph Smith translation gives the explanation:

Joseph Smith translation
JST, Luke 17:36–38.
Compare Luke 17:37

36 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord, shall they be taken?

37 And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is gathered; or, in other words, whithersoever the saints are gathered, thither will the eagles be gathered together; or, thither will the remainder be gathered together.

38 This he spake, signifying the gathering of his saints; and of angels descending and gathering the remainder unto them; the one from the bed, the other from the grinding, and the other from the field, whithersoever he listeth.

This is the manner in which the exodus will take place.
The eagle wings given to the woman are the angels who gather the righteous remnant in one night and transport them to the wilderness where the saints are collected into one body.
Eagles refer to angels or to translated beings in Hebrew metaphorical language.
The eagles are also the righteous ones who are gathered out in this miraculous manner and taken to the wilderness. Isaiah says:

Isaiah 40:
31 But they who hope in Jehovah shall be renewed in strength:they shall ascend as on eagles’ wings;they shall run without wearying,they shall walk and not faint.

And

Isaiah 60:
8 Who are these, aloft like clouds,flying as doves to their portals?

This is the fulfillment of the promise in the oath and covenant of the priesthood. It is realized by those who are taken on the exodus because there will be the elderly, the infirm and the very young. All will be renewed in their bodies and translated during the course of the exodus. The gathering of the eagles will occur in one night or day, depending on which hemisphere you are in, so some will be in the fields while others will be sleeping.
The righteous remnant who are to go on the exodus will be taken from the worthy members wherever they are in the world. Unlike the first exodus, however, the people will not take any possessions or supplies. They will go in the clothing they are wearing and will not be allowed to go back for their "stuff". The Lord will provide for the people. He will place a canopy over them to protect from the sun and the other elements:

Isaiah 4

5 Over the whole site of Mount Zion, and over its solemn assembly, Jehovah will form a cloud by day and a mist glowing with fire by night: above all that is glorious shall be a canopy.

Those who sanctify themselves, who participate in Zion’s “solemn assembly,” enjoy Jehovah’s divine protection in the place Zion, also called “Mount Zion” (Isaiah 8:13-14, Isaiah 8:13-14, 18; 24:23; 24:23). Jehovah’s cloud of glory—signifying his presence (Exodus 24:15-18; 33:8-11)—makes glorious his holy people and the place where they abide. By its means, Jehovah protected ancient Israel when he appeared among his people during their wilderness travels (Exodus 13:20-22; 14:19-20). Jehovah’s “canopy”—as in a traditional marriage canopy—denotes his people’s renewal of their covenant with him at that time.

6 It shall be a shelter and shade from the heat of the day, a secret refuge from the downpour and from rain.

Jehovah’s cloud of glory (v 5) acts as a shelter, shade, and secret refuge from the heat and downpour—that is, from the elements and from the king of Assyria/Babylon in Jehovah’s Day of Judgment (Isaiah 25:4-5). As Pharaoh’s armies were unable to penetrate the cloud when they pursued after Jehovah’s people (Exodus 14:19-20), so in that day will no enemies molest those who participate in Zion’s solemn assemblies. According to the terms of his covenant, Jehovah is obligated to protect his people when they keep his law and word.
His divine intervention attests to their utmost compliance.


Joseph Smith: "...without Zion, and a place of deliverance, we must fall; because the time is near when the sun will be darkened, and the moon turn to blood, and the stars fall from the heaven, and the earth reel to and fro. Then, if this is the case, and if we are not sanctified and gathered to the places God has appointed, with all our former professions and our great love for the Bible, we must fall; we cannot stand; we cannot be saved; for God will gather out his Saints from the Gentiles, and then comes desolation and destruction, and none can escape except the pure in heart who are gathered." --DHC 2:52
Spirit, is that you???
ya.
thanks for recognizing me.

kinda feel like I'm just wasting my time here though.
Most don't really care about the scriptures, or the truth in them.
But for now, I guess I'm still here.

Re: What the Future of Mormonism ought to be.

Posted: March 27th, 2022, 8:50 am
by InfoWarrior82
Being There wrote: March 27th, 2022, 8:20 am
InfoWarrior82 wrote: March 27th, 2022, 12:13 am
Being There wrote: March 26th, 2022, 10:27 pm Isaiah 28

2 My Lord has in store one mighty and strong:
as a ravaging hailstorm sweeping down,
or like an inundating deluge of mighty waters,
he will hurl them to the ground by his hand.

The imagery of “a ravaging hailstorm sweeping down” and of “an inundating deluge of mighty waters” identifies the king of Assyria/Babylon and his alliance of aggressor nations (Isaiah 8:7-8; 17:12; 18:2). A second “one mighty and strong” in the Book of Isaiah is Jehovah’s servant,
who makes an end of him at the last.

Although Jehovah provides a refuge for a repentant remnant of his people against the storms of their enemies
(Isaiah 4:6; 25:4-5; 57:13), he empowers the archtyrant—Jehovah’s (left) hand—over “the drunkards of Ephraim” to cast their illustriousness to the ground (cf. vv 1, 3).

The Lord will provide places of refuge - "where she hath a place prepared of God"

Revelation 12
"the woman" is the righteous remnant

Revelation 12
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
(the "woman" is the righteous saints)
(A thousand two hundred and threescore days is 1,260 days
(a score equals 20),
1,260 days (which is 42 months, or 3 1/2 years.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(repentant remnant from the righteous saints)


Unrepentant saints - bondage for " a time and times and the dividing of time" "forty and two months"
(3 1/2 years)

Daniel 7:
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand
until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Revelation 13:
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

"time" equals 1.
"times" equals 2.
" a dividing of time" equals 1/2.
If you add up 1+2+1/2, that equals 3 1/2 years.

The tribulation is 7 years. 3 1/2 + 3 1/2 = 7

A thousand two hundred and threescore days is 1,260 days
(a score equals 20),
1,260 days (which is 42 months, or 3 1/2 years.

Isaiah 33

14 The sinners in Zion are struck with fear;
the godless are in the grip of trembling:
Who among us can live through the devouring fire?
Who among us can abide eternal burning?

When a Sodom-and-Gomorrah type of destruction materializes, the wicked who dwell with Jehovah’s people “in Zion” give way to fear and trembling. Spiritually and physically unprepared for calamity, they realize with trepidation that their end is near. Their disloyalty to Jehovah prevents them from believing that “whatever weapon is devised against you, it shall not succeed” (Isaiah 54:17), or that “whoever wars against you shall be reduced to nothing” (Isaiah 41:12). Physical fire—at the hands of the king of Assyria/Babylon—and “eternal burning” in the hereafter await them.

15 They who conduct themselves righteously
and are honest in word,
who disdain extortion
and stay their hand from taking bribes,
who stop their ears at the mention of murder,
who shut their eyes at the sight of wickedness.
16 They shall dwell on high;
the impregnable cliffs are their fortress.
Bread is provided them, their water is sure.

Those who survive the devouring fire are Jehovah’s elect, his holy and valiant ones (Isaiah 4:4; 13:3, 19; 14:30-32). Although they live in a wicked society—amidst “extortion,” “bribes,” “murder,” and “wickedness”—they exercise scrupulous integrity.
They are a people apart, made up of individuals determined to maintain justice and righteousness at all costs (Isaiah 26:7; 57:2; 61:7-9).
Even in their wilderness retreat, food and water remain covenant blessings (Isaiah 7:21-22; 41:17-18; 49:9-10): “Tell the righteous it shall be well with them; they shall eat the fruits of their own labors” (Isaiah 3:10).

"When the Savior was speaking to his disciples they wanted to know the signs of his coming and of the end of the world. He told them many things: there would be False Christs, wars and rumors of wars, famines and earthquakes, and the gospel would be preached in all the world for the last time. (Matthew 24).
The chronology is all jumbled and out of order.
Luke gives a similar account but it is better, especially because Joseph Smith translated and corrected some of the verses:

Luke 17:26-37

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot’s wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The Savior is talking about the time just before the tribulation begins. In fact, he is talking about the time just before the civil war and unrest begin in the United States. He refers to his coming as the beginning of the days of tribulation and judgment so before he begins either, people are living pretty much as normal.
But in one night at the beginning of the tribulation, there is a massive leaving of people: one from bed, one from the field, and so on. The disciples ask the obvious question, "Where are they taken?" The Lord answers with another riddle. He tells them that where the body is, the eagles will be gathered together.
The Joseph Smith translation gives the explanation:

Joseph Smith translation
JST, Luke 17:36–38.
Compare Luke 17:37

36 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord, shall they be taken?

37 And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is gathered; or, in other words, whithersoever the saints are gathered, thither will the eagles be gathered together; or, thither will the remainder be gathered together.

38 This he spake, signifying the gathering of his saints; and of angels descending and gathering the remainder unto them; the one from the bed, the other from the grinding, and the other from the field, whithersoever he listeth.

This is the manner in which the exodus will take place.
The eagle wings given to the woman are the angels who gather the righteous remnant in one night and transport them to the wilderness where the saints are collected into one body.
Eagles refer to angels or to translated beings in Hebrew metaphorical language.
The eagles are also the righteous ones who are gathered out in this miraculous manner and taken to the wilderness. Isaiah says:

Isaiah 40:
31 But they who hope in Jehovah shall be renewed in strength:they shall ascend as on eagles’ wings;they shall run without wearying,they shall walk and not faint.

And

Isaiah 60:
8 Who are these, aloft like clouds,flying as doves to their portals?

This is the fulfillment of the promise in the oath and covenant of the priesthood. It is realized by those who are taken on the exodus because there will be the elderly, the infirm and the very young. All will be renewed in their bodies and translated during the course of the exodus. The gathering of the eagles will occur in one night or day, depending on which hemisphere you are in, so some will be in the fields while others will be sleeping.
The righteous remnant who are to go on the exodus will be taken from the worthy members wherever they are in the world. Unlike the first exodus, however, the people will not take any possessions or supplies. They will go in the clothing they are wearing and will not be allowed to go back for their "stuff". The Lord will provide for the people. He will place a canopy over them to protect from the sun and the other elements:

Isaiah 4

5 Over the whole site of Mount Zion, and over its solemn assembly, Jehovah will form a cloud by day and a mist glowing with fire by night: above all that is glorious shall be a canopy.

Those who sanctify themselves, who participate in Zion’s “solemn assembly,” enjoy Jehovah’s divine protection in the place Zion, also called “Mount Zion” (Isaiah 8:13-14, Isaiah 8:13-14, 18; 24:23; 24:23). Jehovah’s cloud of glory—signifying his presence (Exodus 24:15-18; 33:8-11)—makes glorious his holy people and the place where they abide. By its means, Jehovah protected ancient Israel when he appeared among his people during their wilderness travels (Exodus 13:20-22; 14:19-20). Jehovah’s “canopy”—as in a traditional marriage canopy—denotes his people’s renewal of their covenant with him at that time.

6 It shall be a shelter and shade from the heat of the day, a secret refuge from the downpour and from rain.

Jehovah’s cloud of glory (v 5) acts as a shelter, shade, and secret refuge from the heat and downpour—that is, from the elements and from the king of Assyria/Babylon in Jehovah’s Day of Judgment (Isaiah 25:4-5). As Pharaoh’s armies were unable to penetrate the cloud when they pursued after Jehovah’s people (Exodus 14:19-20), so in that day will no enemies molest those who participate in Zion’s solemn assemblies. According to the terms of his covenant, Jehovah is obligated to protect his people when they keep his law and word.
His divine intervention attests to their utmost compliance.


Joseph Smith: "...without Zion, and a place of deliverance, we must fall; because the time is near when the sun will be darkened, and the moon turn to blood, and the stars fall from the heaven, and the earth reel to and fro. Then, if this is the case, and if we are not sanctified and gathered to the places God has appointed, with all our former professions and our great love for the Bible, we must fall; we cannot stand; we cannot be saved; for God will gather out his Saints from the Gentiles, and then comes desolation and destruction, and none can escape except the pure in heart who are gathered." --DHC 2:52
Spirit, is that you???
ya.
thanks for recognizing me.

kinda feel like I'm just wasting my time here though.
Most don't really care about the scriptures, or the truth in them.
But for now, I guess I'm still here.
I have always appreciated your posts. Your scriptural knowledge and citation is something I've been impressed with and have given me much understanding. We all need more of that.

Re: What the Future of Mormonism ought to be.

Posted: March 27th, 2022, 2:56 pm
by Leland41-2
That is a rather lengthy comment above, actually three comments. Could someone summarize and focus it all a little bit?

That seems like a lot of mysticism for my taste, although it does certainly come from the Scriptures.
I would love to have Christ come back and clean up the mess for us, but I'm very skeptical that it would turn out the way many people assume it would turn out. I would prefer to see some human action make a big difference in our society.

Do we really know how Christ would discern between the useless and the deserving as far as who should be saved? I fear that what we have here is a lot of people who think that the Old Testament standard of righteousness which was to be pure and passive is what Christ is looking for. That was epitomized by the Levite and the priest who passed by the wounded man on their way to Jericho.

I prefer to think that the people who were aggressively doing good like the good Samaritan are the sort of people he would like to save. Those who are being pure and passive, are more like potted plants that are not of much value to anyone else in society.

What if someone were able to find a way to greatly diminish the 3000 abortions that occur in Utah every year, as part of the 800,000 abortions that occur the United States every year. Now that would be some serious action to help improve our society. If someone just goes to church regularly and pays tithing and fast offerings, is that person sufficiently valuable to keep around on earth after it has been cleansed? (If our tithing were used to solve social problems that would be one thing, but it is not. Only the most microscopic portions of all of that money actually are used to make any positive changes to our society. If we want to see something good done with those resources, we are going to have to take that function into our own hands.)

Re: What the Future of Mormonism ought to be.

Posted: March 27th, 2022, 3:06 pm
by pancake
Leland41-2 wrote: March 27th, 2022, 2:56 pm Do we really know how Christ would discern between the useless and the deserving as far as who should be saved? I fear that what we have here is a lot of people who think that the Old Testament standard of righteousness which was to be pure and passive is what Christ is looking for. That was epitomized by the Levite and the priest who passed by the wounded man on their way to Jericho.

I prefer to think that the people who were aggressively doing good like the good Samaritan are the sort of people he would like to save. Those who are being pure and passive, are more like potted plants that are not of much value to anyone else in society.
It isn't so much a matter of being passive or aggressive. It's possible to aggressively seek to do things that you believe are good (but that the Lord would not command you to do). More important is to seek to do the Lord's will. Offer the Lord a broken heart and contrite spirit, seek His voice, follow the commandments He gives specifically for you. This what is referred to when the Lord speaks of knowing someone or not. You must be continually seeking His will and following personal commandments from Him. This is enduring to the end. As you grow and gain you will be gradually endowed with greater blessings and gifts of the spirit.

Re: What the Future of Mormonism ought to be.

Posted: March 30th, 2022, 10:41 pm
by GüdFüdDude
Leland41-2 wrote: March 21st, 2022, 12:06 pm What the Future of Mormonism ought to be.
...
I appeal to the modern-day church, and to its apologetics supporters, to overcome about 120 years of the accumulated "traditions of the fathers"
...
Today's tithing processes are an indication and a relic of slipping back into an Old Testament mindset
...
the Church today is in fact a priestcraft church
...
3. The actual effect of the church organization today is to greatly limit the growth and influence of the gospel
...
There is every indication that the decline of the church documented in 4 Nephi, and the ultimate dissolution of the church and the very society of which it was part, will again be our fate today if no vigorous compensating action is taken.
...
A paper copy of the book can be purchased on Amazon. Links to the full text of a few other books on related church history topics will also be added ...
I bought a paper copy of the book as soon as I saw this post.

I spent 3 evenings with it.

The content is uncomfortable but eye-opening.

The above points are well-argued in the book.

It creates some new possibilities for understanding how servants and watchmen can be wicked and blind in D&C 101, Isaiah 9, 19, 28, 41, 42, 51, 56, Jer 23, Ezek 34, and Jacob's allegory.

Putting together the idea of an endtime servant (Gileadi) who comes in to clean out our centralized money-sucking church bureaucracy (OP's book) like Jesus did the temple is an easy way to see how a great future division in the church might come about. Plus explain the why and how of a sudden creation of fierce apostate opposition to the servant from high priests and judges, enough to create the servant's marring scenario.

I'm glad I read it. It fills in some possible Isaiah interpretations.

It also fills out the great idea of how to get rid of the LDS centralized socialist bureaucracy -- starve the beast/do your own charity work.

I just bought another of the OP's "other books on related church history topics", the one on the millennium.

Re: What the Future of Mormonism ought to be.

Posted: March 31st, 2022, 10:45 am
by briznian
mudflap wrote: March 21st, 2022, 12:44 pm - outsiders should confuse us with the Amish.
I grew up outside of Utah. Friends would say I was "Mormish".

Re: What the Future of Mormonism ought to be.

Posted: March 31st, 2022, 11:04 am
by briznian
This is a good thread. I don't want to derail it into a tithing thread but I wanted to chime in about how I admire the Snuffer version of tithing. Supposedly, before they total up the amount of donations, they make a list of needs among the group. Then they prioritize those needs in order of what they feel is most important. Then count the the tithes and apportion them out to those who have needs. If there is a surplus they donate it to whatever worthy cause they see fit.

I have never witnessed this. I've only heard it talked about so I don't know if they actually do it.

I also admire how much work they get done on a volunteer basis. It proves that a "modest stipend" is not necessary.

Re: What the Future of Mormonism ought to be.

Posted: April 1st, 2022, 1:06 pm
by Leland41-2
I am pleased to see some positive reactions to my post.

Perhaps we need a contest for the best bumper sticker:

I especially like the summary by GüdFüdDude:
"starve the beast/do your own charity work"

I wrote something recently entitled "Hurt the Fake Church to Help the True Gospel." It focuses on making more obvious to the church members and the world the priestcraft nature of the current church. I hope that idea is exploiting a weak link which can bring about some change. It at least implies a specific line of legitimate attack.

The church today is in gross violation of every scriptural instruction and warning about priestcraft behavior, although, naturally, it argues (unconvincingly) otherwise. This member activity would be an appeal to the court of public opinion, where the church is most vulnerable. Trying to discipline the church in a court of civil law, where the courts often try to stay out of matters of religious doctrine and practice, would be going against the church in its strongest place. It has unlimited funds and unlimited lawyers, so that is a bad place to start. And even if a court had a legal basis to act against the church on a particular issue, legal corruption and "professional courtesy" would probably torpedo that approach as well.

See 7-page, 2-part "Hurt" document at :
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3gd4fknpgvxes ... 3.pdf?dl=0

GüdFüdDude spoke of Isaiah interpretations. I will assume that is a big picture, top-down way of looking at the situation. I will have to delve into Isaiah a little bit.
In contrast, I am the bottom-up detail guy who starts with the known and tries to use history and logic to arrive at the unknown. If the top-down and bottom-up could meet, that would be great.

Re: What the Future of Mormonism ought to be.

Posted: April 3rd, 2022, 12:27 am
by GüdFüdDude
Leland41-2 wrote: April 1st, 2022, 1:06 pm ...
See 7-page, 2-part "Hurt" document at :
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3gd4fknpgvxes ... 3.pdf?dl=0
...
GüdFüdDude spoke of Isaiah interpretations. I will assume that is a big picture, top-down way of looking at the situation. I will have to delve into Isaiah a little bit.
...
Your insightful 7 page bottom-up "hurt" doc (thank you!), parallels interestingly with one of the dozen short sketches, ie elitism-pharisaism, of forms of modern idolatry given in Avraham Gileadi's short 2018 book, Modern Idolatry and the End of the World:

"...Elitism-Pharisaism is idolatry because it puts the institution or peer group before the person--the individual serves the collective, not vice versa. It is worship of the system or organization to which people belong ... Typifying that sort of idolatry are the Pharisees of New Testament times, a group whose elitist tendencies we know well from Jesus' discourse with them... We see among the ancient elitist Pharisees many forms of priestcraft that Jesus and his apostles predicted would corrupt his endtime church." (several refs to Mt 23 then follow)

If you intend to "delve into Isaiah a little bit" for Isaiah interpretations, check out the apocalyptic commentaries of the Isaiah chapters mentioned above at isaiahexplained.com.

eg https://www.isaiahexplained.com/commentary/56

What you said earlier is a pretty good description of how these two analysis types complement each other: Top-down prophecy meets Bottom-up details. Your descriptions of today's church operations give options for understanding the 2,700 year-old prophetic side.

Re: What the Future of Mormonism ought to be.

Posted: April 3rd, 2022, 2:05 pm
by Thx99
I dont understand the point….the church leaders cannot institute tithing?

What can or cannot they do?

I am pretty disappointed in the feminism and wokeness of the church as it goes against doctrines. But what doctrine says we CANNOT have 10% tithing and free will offerings? What doctrine says we cannot have institutional structure to support a world wide church? I dont like corporate church but some of these problems are hard to solve and they get solved over time in ways that reasonable people can disagree with but dont easily fall into clear doctrinal good or bad.

Re: What the Future of Mormonism ought to be.

Posted: April 3rd, 2022, 2:11 pm
by pancake
Thx99 wrote: April 3rd, 2022, 2:05 pm I dont understand the point….the church leaders cannot institute tithing?

What can or cannot they do?

I am pretty disappointed in the feminism and wokeness of the church as it goes against doctrines. But what doctrine says we CANNOT have 10% tithing and free will offerings? What doctrine says we cannot have institutional structure to support a world wide church? I dont like corporate church but some of these problems are hard to solve and they get solved over time in ways that reasonable people can disagree with but dont easily fall into clear doctrinal good or bad.
There was a new church established after the death of Joseph Smith. This new church changed/broke the new and everlasting covenant!

D&C 22
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Manchester, New York, April 16, 1830
1 Behold, I say unto you that all old covenants have I caused to be done away in this thing; and this is a new and an everlasting covenant, even that which was from the beginning.
2 Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works.
3 For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old.
4 Wherefore, enter ye in at the gate, as I have commanded, and seek not to counsel your God. Amen.

The new and everlasting covenant, even that which was from the beginning, is described everywhere in the scriptures:
Scriptures describing the new and everlasting covenant:
Ether 4:15-18
15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.
16 And then shall my revelations which I have caused to be written by my servant John be unfolded in the eyes of all the people. Remember, when ye see these things, ye shall know that the time is at hand that they shall be made manifest in very deed.
17 Therefore, when ye shall receive this record ye may know that the work of the Father has commenced upon all the face of the land.
18 Therefore, repent all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me, and believe in my gospel, and be baptized in my name; for he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned; and signs shall follow them that believe in my name.
Doctrine & Covenants 93:1
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;
2 Nephi 32:3-6
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.
4 Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot understand them it will be because ye ask not, neither do ye knock; wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark.
5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.
6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.
Alma 7:14-15
14 Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again; for the Spirit saith if ye are not born again ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, who is mighty to save and to cleanse from all unrighteousness.
15 Yea, I say unto you come and fear not, and lay aside every sin, which easily doth beset you, which doth bind you down to destruction, yea, come and go forth, and show unto your God that ye are willing to repent of your sins and enter into a covenant with him to keep his commandments, and witness it unto him this day by going into the waters of baptism.
3 Nephi 9:17-22
17 And as many as have received me, to them have I given to become the sons of God; and even so will I to as many as shall believe on my name, for behold, by me redemption cometh, and in me is the law of Moses fulfilled.
18 I am the light and the life of the world. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.
19 And ye shall offer up unto me no more the shedding of blood; yea, your sacrifices and your burnt offerings shall be done away, for I will accept none of your sacrifices and your burnt offerings.
20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.
21 Behold, I have come unto the world to bring redemption unto the world, to save the world from sin.
22 Therefore, whoso repenteth and cometh unto me as a little child, him will I receive, for of such is the kingdom of God. Behold, for such I have laid down my life, and have taken it up again; therefore repent, and come unto me ye ends of the earth, and be saved.
3 Nephi 11:32-41
32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.
33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.
36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.
37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.
38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
41 Therefore, go forth unto this people, and declare the words which I have spoken, unto the ends of the earth.
3 Nephi 12:18-19
18 For verily I say unto you, one jot nor one tittle hath not passed away from the law, but in me it hath all been fulfilled.
19 And behold, I have given you the law and the commandments of my Father, that ye shall believe in me, and that ye shall repent of your sins, and come unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Behold, ye have the commandments before you, and the law is fulfilled.
Matthew 3:11
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Luke 3:16
16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Revelation given through Joseph Smith, Jr. (April, 1830)
Revelation to the church of Christ, which was established in these last days, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and thirty: Given April, 1830, in consequence of some desiring to unite with the church without re-baptism, who had previously been baptized.
1 Behold I say unto you, that all old covenants have I caused to be done away in this thing, and this is a new and an everlasting covenant; even that which was from the beginning.— Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times, it availeth him nothing; for you cannot enter in at the straight gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works; for it is because of your dead works, that I have caused this last covenant, and this church to be built up unto me; even as in days of old. Wherefore enter ye in at the gate, as I have commanded, and seek not to counsel your God. Amen.
Isaiah 24:5
5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
More scriptures describing the new and everlasting covenant:
D&C 40:1-3
1 Behold, verily I say unto you, that the heart of my servant James Covel was right before me, for he covenanted with me that he would obey my word.
2 And he received the word with gladness, but straightway Satan tempted him; and the fear of persecution and the cares of the world caused him to reject the word.
3 Wherefore he broke my covenant, and it remaineth with me to do with him as seemeth me good. Amen.

Mosiah 18:10
10 Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?

Mosiah 5:5-9
5 And we are willing to enter into a covenant with our God to do his will, and to be obedient to his commandments in all things that he shall command us, all the remainder of our days, that we may not bring upon ourselves a never-ending torment, as has been spoken by the angel, that we may not drink out of the cup of the wrath of God.
6 And now, these are the words which king Benjamin desired of them; and therefore he said unto them: Ye have spoken the words that I desired; and the covenant which ye have made is a righteous covenant.
7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.
8 And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives.
9 And it shall come to pass that whosoever doeth this shall be found at the right hand of God, for he shall know the name by which he is called; for he shall be called by the name of Christ.

1 Nephi 3:7
7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

D&C 133:57
57 And for this cause, that men might be made partakers of the glories which were to be revealed, the Lord sent forth the fulness of his gospel, his everlasting covenant, reasoning in plainness and simplicity

D&C 66:2
2 Verily I say unto you, blessed are you for receiving mine everlasting covenant, even the fulness of my gospel, sent forth unto the children of men, that they might have life and be made partakers of the glories which are to be revealed in the last days, as it was written by the prophets and apostles in days of old.

D&C 39:11
11 And if thou do this, I have prepared thee for a greater work. Thou shalt preach the fulness of my gospel, which I have sent forth in these last days, the covenant which I have sent forth to recover my people, which are of the house of Israel.

2 Nephi 2:6-8
6 Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth.
7 Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.
8 Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.

Isaiah 1:18
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Alma 22:15-18
15 And it came to pass that after Aaron had expounded these things unto him, the king said: What shall I do that I may have this eternal life of which thou hast spoken? Yea, what shall I do that I may be born of God, having this wicked spirit rooted out of my breast, and receive his Spirit, that I may be filled with joy, that I may not be cast off at the last day? Behold, said he, I will give up all that I possess, yea, I will forsake my kingdom, that I may receive this great joy.
16 But Aaron said unto him: If thou desirest this thing, if thou wilt bow down before God, yea, if thou wilt repent of all thy sins, and will bow down before God, and call on his name in faith, believing that ye shall receive, then shalt thou receive the hope which thou desirest.
17 And it came to pass that when Aaron had said these words, the king did bow down before the Lord, upon his knees; yea, even he did prostrate himself upon the earth, and cried mightily, saying:
18 O God, Aaron hath told me that there is a God; and if there is a God, and if thou art God, wilt thou make thyself known unto me, and I will give away all my sins to know thee, and that I may be raised from the dead, and be saved at the last day. And now when the king had said these words, he was struck as if he were dead.

D&C 22:1-4
1 Behold, I say unto you that all old covenants have I caused to be done away in this thing; and this is a new and an everlasting covenant, even that which was from the beginning.
2 Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works.
3 For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old.
4 Wherefore, enter ye in at the gate, as I have commanded, and seek not to counsel your God. Amen.

Luke 18:9-14
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

2 Nephi 31:19-20
19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.
20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

Mosiah 3:19
19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

Moses 6:66-68
66 And he heard a voice out of heaven, saying: Thou art baptized with fire, and with the Holy Ghost. This is the record of the Father, and the Son, from henceforth and forever;
67 And thou art after the order of him who was without beginning of days or end of years, from all eternity to all eternity.
68 Behold, thou art one in me, a son of God; and thus may all become my sons. Amen.

D&C 84:43-57
43 And I now give unto you a commandment to beware concerning yourselves, to give diligent heed to the words of eternal life.
44 For you shall live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God.
45 For the word of the Lord is truth, and whatsoever is truth is light, and whatsoever is light is Spirit, even the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
46 And the Spirit giveth light to every man that cometh into the world; and the Spirit enlighteneth every man through the world, that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit.
47 And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father.
48 And the Father teacheth him of the covenant which he has renewed and confirmed upon you, which is confirmed upon you for your sakes, and not for your sakes only, but for the sake of the whole world.
49 And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin.
50 And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me.
51 For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin.
52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.
53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

Omni 1:26
26 And now, my beloved brethren, I would that ye should come unto Christ, who is the Holy One of Israel, and partake of his salvation, and the power of his redemption. Yea, come unto him, and offer your whole souls as an offering unto him, and continue in fasting and praying, and endure to the end; and as the Lord liveth ye will be saved.

1 Samuel 15:22-24
22 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
24 And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the Lord, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice.

Psalm 40:6-17
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
9 I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O Lord, thou knowest.
10 I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.
11 Withhold not thou thy tender mercies from me, O Lord: let thy lovingkindness and thy truth continually preserve me.
12 For innumerable evils have compassed me about: mine iniquities have taken hold upon me, so that I am not able to look up; they are more than the hairs of mine head: therefore my heart faileth me.
13 Be pleased, O Lord, to deliver me: O Lord, make haste to help me.
14 Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.
15 Let them be desolate for a reward of their shame that say unto me, Aha, aha.
16 Let all those that seek thee rejoice and be glad in thee: let such as love thy salvation say continually, The Lord be magnified.
17 But I am poor and needy; yet the Lord thinketh upon me: thou art my help and my deliverer; make no tarrying, O my God.

Psalm 69:29-33
29 But I am poor and sorrowful: let thy salvation, O God, set me up on high.
30 I will praise the name of God with a song, and will magnify him with thanksgiving.
31 This also shall please the Lord better than an ox or bullock that hath horns and hoofs.
32 The humble shall see this, and be glad: and your heart shall live that seek God.
33 For the Lord heareth the poor, and despiseth not his prisoners.

Isaiah 1:11
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

Proverbs 21:1-4
1 The king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the Lord pondereth the hearts.
3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.
4 An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.

Hebrews 10:1-22
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Hebrews 12:24
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Micah 6:6-8
6 Wherewith shall I come before the Lord, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?
7 Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Romans 2:11-15
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Proverbs 7:1-3
1 My son, keep my words, and lay up my commandments with thee.
2 Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.
3 Bind them upon thy fingers, write them upon the table of thine heart.

Hebrews 8:8-12
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Isaiah 57:15
15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Isaiah 66:2-3
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog’s neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine’s blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

Joel 2:1-3
1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

Leviticus 26:40-42
40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.

Psalm 34:18
18 The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Isaiah 1:18-20
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

Matthew 5:3
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

D&C 76:69
69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.

D&C 107:19
19 To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant.

D&C 45:3-5
3 Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him—
4 Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified;
5 Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life.

Alma 34:16-18
16 And thus mercy can satisfy the demands of justice, and encircles them in the arms of safety, while he that exercises no faith unto repentance is exposed to the whole law of the demands of justice; therefore only unto him that has faith unto repentance is brought about the great and eternal plan of redemption.
17 Therefore may God grant unto you, my brethren, that ye may begin to exercise your faith unto repentance, that ye begin to call upon his holy name, that he would have mercy upon you;
18 Yea, cry unto him for mercy; for he is mighty to save.

Alma 36:12-20
16 And now, for three days and for three nights was I racked, even with the pains of a damned soul.
17 And it came to pass that as I was thus racked with torment, while I was harrowed up by the memory of my many sins, behold, I remembered also to have heard my father prophesy unto the people concerning the coming of one Jesus Christ, a Son of God, to atone for the sins of the world.
18 Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am in the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death.
19 And now, behold, when I thought this, I could remember my pains no more; yea, I was harrowed up by the memory of my sins no more.
20 And oh, what joy, and what marvelous light I did behold; yea, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain!

Alma 18:40-41
40 And it came to pass that after he had said all these things, and expounded them to the king, that the king believed all his words.
41 And he began to cry unto the Lord, saying: O Lord, have mercy; according to thy abundant mercy which thou hast had upon the people of Nephi, have upon me, and my people.

Matthew 11:28-30
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

D&C 131:2 (bracketed phrase added in 1876)
2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

D&C 1:30-31
30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—
31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;

JST Genesis 9:21-25
21 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant, which I made unto thy father Enoch; that, when men should keep all my commandments, Zion should again come on the earth, the city of Enoch which I have caught up unto myself.
22 And this is mine everlasting covenant, that when thy posterity shall embrace the truth, and look upward, then shall Zion look downward, and all the heavens shall shake with gladness, and the earth shall tremble with joy;
23 And the general assembly of the church of the firstborn shall come down out of heaven, and possess the earth, and shall have place until the end come. And this is mine everlasting covenant, which I made with thy father Enoch.
24 And the bow shall be in the cloud, and I will establish my covenant unto thee, which I have made between me and thee, for every living creature of all flesh that shall be upon the earth.
25 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant which I have established between me and thee; for all flesh that shall be upon the earth.

D&C 35:24-25 (note 1835 change from “confounded” to “condemned” in verse 25)
24 Keep all the commandments and covenants by which ye are bound; and I will cause the heavens to shake for your good, and Satan shall tremble and Zion shall rejoice upon the hills and flourish;
25 And Israel shall be saved in mine own due time; and by the keys which I have given shall they be led, and no more be confounded at all.
Other than D&C 132, polygamy is never a commandment from God. And the way D&C 132 introduces polygamy makes it very clear that it goes against all of scripture. It changes the new and everlasting covenant, which is taught everywhere in the scriptures, into celestial marriage. And completely takes our focus away from offering the Lord a broken heart and contrite spirit and faithfully following His voice, His commandments until the end. It is painfully obvious that this is something that has been incredibly difficult for many righteous people to accept. Why would God give such a difficult teaching to the main body of the church? God teaches the plain and simple truth to make it easier for us to progress and come unto Him. If God were to truly release such a doctrine it would not be in a manner to replace his plain and simple truth of offering Him a broken heart and contrite spirit! If anything it would be taught as a completely separate doctrine and only introduced to those who had progressed enough along to be able to accept it. The very manner of its presentation in D&C 132 completely testifies against it! God would not do this to us! Jesus taught in parables so they could learn as much as they were ready for. He didn't tell them straight up, "you need to marry multiple wives or you can't become like me". I testify that if God was going to introduce polygamy it would not be like this! D&C 132 is a fabrication of men and is leading the people away from Christ! If you have prayed about this subject before I would ask you to pray again, this time specifically that if God was going to introduce polygamy would He really do it in such a manner as this?
Scriptures describing polygamy:
Jacob 2:22-35
22 And now I make an end of speaking unto you concerning this pride. And were it not that I must speak unto you concerning a grosser crime, my heart would rejoice exceedingly because of you.

A) 23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.
24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
B) 25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
C) 26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women.
D) And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
E) 29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
E) 30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
D) 31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
C) 32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people,
B) which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
33 For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction;
A) for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.
34 And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.
35 Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.
The statements "raise up seed unto me" and "otherwise they shall hearken unto these things" are not justifications for polygamy to be practiced at certain times. Jacob 2:23-35 has an antimetabole chiasmus structure. And the verse with "otherwise they shall hearken unto these things" is the center point. It is telling us to hearken unto the sermon being taught. And the sermon being taught is that polygamy is condemned by God and not to be practiced. God is telling us that polygamy is not how He raises up seed unto Him. But that the way God raises up seed unto Him is by commanding those who have offered Him a broken heart and contrite spirit. Those who keep this covenant by faithfully following the commandments they receive from God become His children:
Mosiah 5:7
7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.
Do the scriptures ever show God commanding a man to take a second wife? Jacob began the practice of polygamy while living in a wicked land where literal idol worship was practiced (Rachel hid her father's idols from him). Did God command him to work another seven years for Rachel or did he do it because he loved her? Men have been asked by their wives to take their handmaids, so maybe those wives received the commandment from the Lord but didn't tell anyone? Other examples found in the scriptures show it being practiced by wicked men.
Genesis 4:17-24
(For anyone reading this who is unaware, this is not the same Enoch and city of Enoch that was taken into heaven).
17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
18 And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech.
19 And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.
20 And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle.
21 And his brother’s name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.
22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubal-cain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubal-cain was Naamah.
23 And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.
24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.
Mosiah 11:1-10
1 And now it came to pass that Zeniff conferred the kingdom upon Noah, one of his sons; therefore Noah began to reign in his stead; and he did not walk in the ways of his father.
2 For behold, he did not keep the commandments of God, but he did walk after the desires of his own heart. And he had many wives and concubines. And he did cause his people to commit sin, and do that which was abominable in the sight of the Lord. Yea, and they did commit whoredoms and all manner of wickedness.
3 And he laid a tax of one fifth part of all they possessed, a fifth part of their gold and of their silver, and a fifth part of their ziff, and of their copper, and of their brass and their iron; and a fifth part of their fatlings; and also a fifth part of all their grain.
4 And all this did he take to support himself, and his wives and his concubines; and also his priests, and their wives and their concubines; thus he had changed the affairs of the kingdom.
5 For he put down all the priests that had been consecrated by his father, and consecrated new ones in their stead, such as were lifted up in the pride of their hearts.
6 Yea, and thus they were supported in their laziness, and in their idolatry, and in their whoredoms, by the taxes which king Noah had put upon his people; thus did the people labor exceedingly to support iniquity.
7 Yea, and they also became idolatrous, because they were deceived by the vain and flattering words of the king and priests; for they did speak flattering things unto them.
8 And it came to pass that king Noah built many elegant and spacious buildings; and he ornamented them with fine work of wood, and of all manner of precious things, of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of brass, and of ziff, and of copper;
9 And he also built him a spacious palace, and a throne in the midst thereof, all of which was of fine wood and was ornamented with gold and silver and with precious things.
10 And he also caused that his workmen should work all manner of fine work within the walls of the temple, of fine wood, and of copper, and of brass.

Re: What the Future of Mormonism ought to be.

Posted: April 3rd, 2022, 4:00 pm
by Leland41-2
by Thx99 » April 3rd, 2022, 2:05 pm

I dont understand the point….the church leaders cannot institute tithing?

What can or cannot they do?
That is the giant question, isn't it?

I really like "pancake" quoting D&C 22:2 "for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses..."

But now we are taught that we must do exactly that.

And who gets to decide what the leaders can and cannot do?

Do we delegate all of our religious thinking to church headquarters so that we have no more such duties? I believe all the warnings against centralizing power apply to religious organizations as much as to any other organizations. "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." That is the definition of human nature. Just because someone reads the Bible doesn't mean they're not subject to all the exact same forces.

As one small example, I believe the church was asked to accept the word of wisdom as an official doctrine of the church. But where was the vote to make tithing an official part of the church? As far as they know, that vote never happened. Or, where is the section in the doctrine and covenants where an official revelation was recorded on that point, telling us that we were to return to operating under the law of Moses? That we had failed in in living the gospel and had to go back to the schoolmaster? They seem to have skipped over that little detail and just gradually made it so that admittance to the Temple was dependent on first paying tithing. It was a gradual administrative policy that took sixty years to fully implement, presumably by constant preaching.

I see every government that has ever existed on the earth as an opportunity to exercise priestcraft. Our federal government today is bloated beyond belief, simply because of people's constant desire to take too much from others to use for themselves. As I see it, the church today is no different from the federal government.

We just heard during the current conference that the church leaders are captives of the Scriptures, implying that they cannot go outside the bounds of the Scriptures. That seems to be one opinion.

At the same time, I think the church leaders today would say that they have absolute license to change any and every scriptural interpretation that they feel like doing. If they were honest, they would say that our Scriptures, as we see bound together in the quad, are nothing more than suggestions, and because they are living prophets, they can change anything they want at any time. Anything they say is just as binding, they would claim.

So far, beginning in earnest in 1896, they have decided to engage in massive priestcraft, eagerly following the path of the Roman Catholic Church in wanting to build up an earthly empire. They have canceled charity – New Testament-style, Good Samaritan-style charity (a necessary consequence of initiating tithing to replace it). They have canceled the gathering. They have cancelled the idea of Zion. They have canceled freedom. The Book of Mormon teaches that people are justified in fighting to maintain their personal liberty. Today, the church would never make such a claim. Although they might meekly speak of the benefits of religious freedom, they would never take any action to defend it. They were officially pacifist during World War II and I don't know of any changes to the position of church headquarters.

As I see it, the difference in all of this is very simple. Under New Testament rules, people are encouraged to contribute to useful social needs, but they were not REQUIRED to pay out a dime. The church has changed things today so that you CANNOT be saved without paying in 10% of your income into the central church over your entire lifetime. (The original church didn't even have or require a central headquarters.) If you get off the "covenant path," simply meaning paying tithing, you are doomed. You are absolutely REQUIRED to buy your salvation, whatever they may say about what is going on. That one simple difference warps the whole program into something which would be unrecognizable to a New Testament saint.

Re: What the Future of Mormonism ought to be.

Posted: April 3rd, 2022, 7:10 pm
by Thx99
Leland41-2 wrote: April 3rd, 2022, 4:00 pm
by Thx99 » April 3rd, 2022, 2:05 pm

I dont understand the point….the church leaders cannot institute tithing?

What can or cannot they do?
That is the giant question, isn't it?

I really like "pancake" quoting D&C 22:2 "for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses..."

But now we are taught that we must do exactly that.

And who gets to decide what the leaders can and cannot do?

Do we delegate all of our religious thinking to church headquarters so that we have no more such duties? I believe all the warnings against centralizing power apply to religious organizations as much as to any other organizations. "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." That is the definition of human nature. Just because someone reads the Bible doesn't mean they're not subject to all the exact same forces.

As one small example, I believe the church was asked to accept the word of wisdom as an official doctrine of the church. But where was the vote to make tithing an official part of the church? As far as they know, that vote never happened. Or, where is the section in the doctrine and covenants where an official revelation was recorded on that point, telling us that we were to return to operating under the law of Moses? That we had failed in in living the gospel and had to go back to the schoolmaster? They seem to have skipped over that little detail and just gradually made it so that admittance to the Temple was dependent on first paying tithing. It was a gradual administrative policy that took sixty years to fully implement, presumably by constant preaching.

I see every government that has ever existed on the earth as an opportunity to exercise priestcraft. Our federal government today is bloated beyond belief, simply because of people's constant desire to take too much from others to use for themselves. As I see it, the church today is no different from the federal government.

We just heard during the current conference that the church leaders are captives of the Scriptures, implying that they cannot go outside the bounds of the Scriptures. That seems to be one opinion.

At the same time, I think the church leaders today would say that they have absolute license to change any and every scriptural interpretation that they feel like doing. If they were honest, they would say that our Scriptures, as we see bound together in the quad, are nothing more than suggestions, and because they are living prophets, they can change anything they want at any time. Anything they say is just as binding, they would claim.

So far, beginning in earnest in 1896, they have decided to engage in massive priestcraft, eagerly following the path of the Roman Catholic Church in wanting to build up an earthly empire. They have canceled the gathering. They have cancelled the idea of Zion. They have canceled freedom. The Book of Mormon teaches that people are justified in fighting to maintain their personal liberty. Today, the church would never make such a claim. Although they might meekly speak of the benefits of religious freedom, they would never take any action to defend it.. They were officially pacifist during World War II and I don't know of any changes to the position of church headquarters.

As I see it, the difference in all of this is very simple. Under New Testament rules, people are encouraged to contribute to useful social needs, but they were not REQUIRED to pay out a dime. The church has changed things today so that you CANNOT be saved without paying in 10% of your income into the central church over your entire lifetime. (The original church didn't even have or require a central headquarters.) If you get off the "covenant path," simply meaning paying tithing, you are doomed. You are absolutely REQUIRED to buy your salvation, whatever they may say about what is going on. That one simple difference warps the whole program into something which would be unrecognizable to a New Testament saint.
Thats for that thoughtful reply. While I have disagreements with the church I believe the current leaders still hold the Lords mantle as his representatives on earth despite their stumbles. I dont mind them formalizing tithing as the method of funding the church but I can appreciate the concerns.