Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 22nd, 2022, 1:40 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 22nd, 2022, 1:31 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: ↑March 22nd, 2022, 1:23 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑March 22nd, 2022, 12:42 pm
But what revelation are you referring to? Can we point to any words of Christ in these revelations? This is what I mean by evidence. There is none to observe.
Alma was saying that he witnessed evidence brought about THROUGH the Holy Spirit. Alma was able to recount word for word his experiences with revelation. He was able to quote the Angel. He was able to quote Jesus. He was able to perform miracles. These are the fruits of prophets.
You are simply saying "If
you FEEL they are prophets because of their words, then that's all that is needed." This is not what Jesus Christ was saying in Matthew Chapter 7. He was concerned about deception and that there was a way to detect a true prophet from a false one. And that was by their fruits. What they produce.
Here are 11 of the minimum requirements of the fruits of prophets:
https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... 1647974485
A. He will boldly claim that God [has] spoken to him.
B. Any man so claiming would be a dignified man with a dignified message; no table-jumping, no whisperings from the dead, no clairvoyance, but an intelligent statement of truth.
C. Any man claiming to be a prophet of God would declare his message without any fear and without making any weak concessions to public opinion.
D. If he were speaking for God, he could not make concessions although what he taught would be new and contrary to the accepted teachings of the day. A prophet bears witness to what he has seen and heard and seldom tries to make a case by argument. His message and not himself is important.
E. Such a man would speak in the name of the Lord, saying, “Thus saith the Lord,” as did Moses, Joshua, and others.
F. Such a man would predict future events in the name of the Lord, and they would come to pass, as did Isaiah and Ezekiel.
G. He would have not only an important message for his time but often a message for all future time, such as Daniel, Jeremiah, and others had.
H. He would have courage and faith enough to endure persecution and to give his life, if need be, for the cause he espoused, such as Peter, Paul, and others did.
I. Such a man would denounce wickedness fearlessly. He would generally be rejected or persecuted by the people of his time, but later generations, the descendants of his persecutors, would build monuments in his honor.
J. He would be able to do superhuman things, things that no man could do without God’s help. The consequence or result of his message and work would be convincing evidence of his prophetic calling. “By their fruits ye shall know them” [Matt. 7:20].
K. His teachings would be in strict conformity with scripture, and his words and his writings would become scripture. “For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost” (2 Pet. 1:21).
The same revelation that Alma was speaking about. I hear the Brethren say the same things all the time.
No, that was not what he was talking about in Alma 5. Again, he said "Behold, I say unto you they are made known unto me by the Holy Spirit of God. Behold, I have fasted and prayed many days that I might know these things of myself. And now I do know of myself that they are true; for the Lord God hath made them manifest unto me by his Holy Spirit; and this is the spirit of revelation which is in me."
You misunderstand revelations generally. I don't believe most revelations are verbal. If you've ever spoken with a patriarch, the revelations they receive are ideas, not words. That's the norm. Expecting revelations to ONLY be verbal is unnecessarily putting your own views on God.
You can reject the Spirit if you want. I don't. I think that is all we have. And it is absolutely what Jesus was referring to. He said "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
I think whether someone is a prophet is a pretty good "thing" for the Holy Ghost to teach us.
I know what Pres. Brown and his protestant friend expect from a prophet. None of that changes or overrides the need for a spiritual confirmation. If you wish to apply their test for prophetic fruit, that "The consequence or result of his message and work would be convincing evidence of his prophetic calling," you're welcome to. None of that is a replacement for spiritual confirmation. Someone can meet, or claim to meet, each of those items on their list, but unless the Spirit says they are a prophet, they aren't.
You hear the brethren recite their revelations in Christ's words? Because that's how prophets do things. Don't believe me? Read the scriptures. Each one of them spoke in the name of the Lord. I'd love to read Christ's words in 2022.
Alma is special when he says that the spirit of revelation is in him. Why? Because he has the goods to back up the claim that the spirit of revelation is in him. As I said earlier, his resume of evidence (or fruit) of being a prophet are numerous for us to read and judge.
Yes, most revelations are not verbal. I've never had a verbal revelation, but then again, I've never claimed to be a prophet of God.
I'll ask again:
Why are the fruits of prophets we read about in scripture missing from our church leaders today? Which fruits out of the 11 Elder Brown gave us are apparent to observe?
Again, read Alma 5. That is what I expect and what I hear at general conference.
We have Alma's experience because of what his father wrote, and what Alma told his sons. It doesn't seem to have been part of his stump speech. Were miracles, or bragging about miracles, a standard part of his sermon, or was healing Zeezrom the exception that he seemed to keep as a sacred experience?
The fruits are not missing. You are expecting things that the Lord doesn't need to give you. Accept what the Lord offers as he offers it.
In case it wasn't clear, I don't particularly care what Pres. Brown and his friend expect. The ONLY thing I care about is what God says, through the Holy Spirit. That's it. If God says someone is a prophet, then I'm on board. If he doesn't, then I'm out. All this other stuff is totally irrelevant when compared with the God's own spirit.
Alma 5 is awesome. He speaks the words of the Lord in this chapter. Did you forget that he did? You posted a single scripture, but forgot the rest of it.
The following IN RED (From Alma ch 5) are QUOTES not of himself, but directly from heaven. Once again, these are FRUITS. These are EVIDENCE. Something our church leaders
DO NOT HAVE:
47 And moreover, I say unto you that it has thus been revealed unto me, that the words which have been spoken by our fathers are true, even so according to the spirit of prophecy which is in me, which is also by the manifestation of the Spirit of God.
48 I say unto you, that I know of myself that whatsoever I shall say unto you, concerning that which is to come, is true; and I say unto you, that I know that Jesus Christ shall come, yea, the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace, and mercy, and truth. And behold, it is he that cometh to take away the sins of the world, yea, the sins of every man who steadfastly believeth on his name.
49 And now I say unto you that this is the order after which I am called, yea, to preach unto my beloved brethren, yea, and every one that dwelleth in the land; yea, to preach unto all, both old and young, both bond and free; yea, I say unto you the aged, and also the middle aged, and the rising generation; yea, to cry unto them that they must repent and be born again.
50 Yea, thus saith the Spirit:
Repent, all ye ends of the earth, for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand; yea, the Son of God cometh in his glory, in his might, majesty, power, and dominion. Yea, my beloved brethren, I say unto you, that the Spirit saith:
Behold the glory of the King of all the earth; and also the King of heaven shall very soon shine forth among all the children of men.
51 And also the Spirit saith unto me, yea, crieth unto me with a mighty voice, saying:
Go forth and say unto this people—Repent, for except ye repent ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of heaven.
52 And again I say unto you, the Spirit saith:
Behold, the ax is laid at the root of the tree; therefore every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit shall be hewn down and cast into the fire, yea, a fire which cannot be consumed, even an unquenchable fire. Behold, and remember, the Holy One hath spoken it.
53 And now my beloved brethren, I say unto you, can ye withstand these sayings; yea, can ye lay aside these things, and trample the Holy One under your feet; yea, can ye be puffed up in the pride of your hearts; yea, will ye still persist in the wearing of costly apparel and setting your hearts upon the vain things of the world, upon your riches?
54 Yea, will ye persist in supposing that ye are better one than another; yea, will ye persist in the persecution of your brethren, who humble themselves and do walk after the holy order of God, wherewith they have been brought into this church, having been sanctified by the Holy Spirit, and they do bring forth works which are meet for repentance—
55 Yea, and will you persist in turning your backs upon the poor, and the needy, and in withholding your substance from them?
56 And finally, all ye that will persist in your wickedness, I say unto you that these are they who shall be hewn down and cast into the fire except they speedily repent.
57 And now I say unto you, all you that are desirous to follow the voice of the good shepherd, come ye out from the wicked, and be ye separate, and touch not their unclean things; and behold, their names shall be blotted out, that the names of the wicked shall not be numbered among the names of the righteous, that the word of God may be fulfilled, which saith:
The names of the wicked shall not be mingled with the names of my people;
58
For the names of the righteous shall be written in the book of life, and unto them will I grant an inheritance at my right hand. And now, my brethren, what have ye to say against this? I say unto you, if ye speak against it, it matters not, for the word of God must be fulfilled.
59 For what shepherd is there among you having many sheep doth not watch over them, that the wolves enter not and devour his flock? And behold, if a wolf enter his flock doth he not drive him out? Yea, and at the last, if he can, he will destroy him.
60 And now I say unto you that the good shepherd doth call after you; and if you will hearken unto his voice he will bring you into his fold, and ye are his sheep; and he commandeth you that ye suffer no ravenous wolf to enter among you, that ye may not be destroyed.
61
And now I, Alma, do command you in the language of him who hath commanded me, that ye observe to do the words which I have spoken unto you.
62
I speak by way of command unto you that belong to the church; and unto those who do not belong to the church I speak by way of invitation, saying: Come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye also may be partakers of the fruit of the tree of life.
And in Chapter 8 he quotes the Angel of the Lord:
14 And it came to pass that while he was journeying thither, being weighed down with sorrow, wading through much tribulation and anguish of soul, because of the wickedness of the people who were in the city of Ammonihah, it came to pass while Alma was thus weighed down with sorrow, behold an angel of the Lord appeared unto him, saying:
15
Blessed art thou, Alma; therefore, lift up thy head and rejoice, for thou hast great cause to rejoice; for thou hast been faithful in keeping the commandments of God from the time which thou receivedst thy first message from him. Behold, I am he that delivered it unto you.
16
And behold, I am sent to command thee that thou return to the city of Ammonihah, and preach again unto the people of the city; yea, preach unto them. Yea, say unto them, except they repent the Lord God will destroy them.
17
For behold, they do study at this time that they may destroy the liberty of thy people, (for thus saith the Lord) which is contrary to the statutes, and judgments, and commandments which he has given unto his people.
18 Now it came to pass that after Alma had received his message from the angel of the Lord he returned speedily to the land of Ammonihah. And he entered the city by another way, yea, by the way which is on the south of the city of Ammonihah.
29 And the word came to Alma, saying:
Go; and also say unto my servant Amulek, go forth and prophesy unto this people, saying—Repent ye, for thus saith the Lord, except ye repent I will visit this people in mine anger; yea, and I will not turn my fierce anger away.
30 And Alma went forth, and also Amulek, among the people, to declare the words of God unto them; and they were filled with the Holy Ghost.
31
And they had power given unto them, insomuch that they could not be confined in dungeons; neither was it possible that any man could slay them; nevertheless they did not exercise their power until they were bound in bands and cast into prison.
Now, this was done that the Lord might show forth his power in them.
32 And it came to pass that they went forth and began to preach and to prophesy unto the people,
according to the spirit and power which the Lord had given them.
And in Chapter 9:
21 Having been visited by the Spirit of God; having conversed with angels, and having been spoken unto by the voice of the Lord; and having the spirit of prophecy, and the spirit of revelation, and also many gifts, the gift of speaking with tongues, and the gift of preaching, and the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the gift of translation;
And Amulek in Chapter 10:
7 As I was journeying to see a very near kindred, behold an angel of the Lord appeared unto me and said:
Amulek, return to thine own house, for thou shalt feed a prophet of the Lord; yea, a holy man, who is a chosen man of God; for he has fasted many days because of the sins of this people, and he is an hungered, and thou shalt receive him into thy house and feed him, and he shall bless thee and thy house; and the blessing of the Lord shall rest upon thee and thy house.
8 And it came to pass that I obeyed the voice of the angel, and returned towards my house. And as I was going thither I found the man whom the angel said unto me: Thou shalt receive into thy house—and behold it was this same man who has been speaking unto you concerning the things of God.
9 And the angel said unto me he is a holy man; wherefore I know he is a holy man because it was said by an angel of God.
10 And again, I know that the things whereof he hath testified are true; for behold I say unto you, that as the Lord liveth, even so has he sent his angel to make these things manifest unto me; and this he has done while this Alma hath dwelt at my house.
We have what Alma the Younger experienced, because he himself experienced it. He had experienced actual prophetic revelation. How many times do I need to point out to you that these prophets in the scriptures have extensive resumes with numerous fruits of being prophets?
You don't want to answer the question I am asking you because you cannot answer it.
Why are the fruits of prophets we read about in scripture missing from our church leaders today?
This is the most essential, fundamental, and basic requirement of a prophet of God: He will recite the words of the Lord to him in his day for the benefit of all who live in that day.