LDS Freedom Forum

New Pew poll on Ukraine war: Thirty-five percent of Americans support the US 'taking military action even if it risks a nuclear conflict with Russia.' (62 percent oppose.)
https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/20 ... ign=buffer
Three weeks into Russia’s military invasion of Ukraine, nearly half of Americans (47%) approve of the Biden administration’s handling of the Russian invasion, while about four-in-ten (39%) disapprove; 13% say they are not sure.

Roughly a third of Americans (32%) say that the United States is providing about the right amount of support to Ukraine as it fights to hold off the Russian invasion. A larger share – 42% – say the U.S. should be providing more support to Ukraine, while just 7% say it is providing too much support. About one-in-five (19%) say they are not sure.

Wow. Idiocracy was a documentary of the future. When do we start watering plants with Brawndo(tm)?

Nuts. It is Soros vs. Putin. Stay out of it.

It's the NWO vs. the NWO (vs. the people)?

I pointed out the threat of nuclear war and was told by a (British) idiot on Facebook that "all countries have nuclear weapons" before she blocked me. It is safe to say almost the entireity of GB could be destroyed by nuclear weapons and it would probably affect Ireland too.

Yikes!

How many will risk nuclear war with Russia over Estonia? Because we are legally committed to doing exactly that.

Is it more likely we will find ourselves fighting a war of Putin's (or his successor's) choosing in Estonia if we don't push Russia out of Ukraine? Yes.
Is it more likely that Russia and it's people will grow to hate the USA for many years to come if we cripple their nation's economy, impoverish its people, and drag out a guerilla war in the Ukraine? Yes.

We seem to assume that there is a good option here. There are none.

1. Don't get involved, and let Russia march across Eastern Europe -- betray more alliances, and watch other nations see what even when it comes to real commitments with legitimate governments (ie. Afghanistan was a corrupt tribal cabal) we can't be trusted and further flames will spread across the world. But with this strategy, we will never get involved and the flames will eventually come to our door as our commercial ships, airlines, companies, etc. are targeted and we "with principle" refuse to respond. Good luck with that. If you are going to respond "at some point" in this scenario 1, you've lost the game as you are just waiting to respond from a position of weakness long after SHTF scenario and to put out one fire you have dozens of others at the same time across the world.

2. Get minimally involved like we are doing now, by supplying weapons to Ukraine, making Russia bleed, pissing Russia off, destroying their economy, and at the same time making Ukrainians upset with us as they increasingly see themselves as pawns the USA is more than willing to let bleed to make Russia bleed. When they called for help, we could have helped, but refused. So long term, Ukraine will pay, Russia will pay, and we will assume we get to be principled, while they both are drenched in blood, looking at us with resentment. Ya, I don't think that will go well either. And let's continue this thought. Ukraine maybe retains control of a few areas, while Russia solidifies control of the areas they occupy -- so we, in our compassion, put sanctions next on occupied Ukraine areas, further making the people worse off. Eventually, those sanctions get removed, or Russia goes to war. Period. You can't force a powerful nation on its knees for ever.

3. Push Russia out of Ukraine, tell them to mind their own internal affairs, and remove sanctions on Russia, while promising not to enter Russia. Leave a demilitarized zone of 50 miles if needs be between Russia/Belarus and Ukraine.

Scenario 1, 2 and 3 could lead to nuclear escalation. I'm not so sure that quickly bloodying Russian troops in Ukraine and pushing them back is more escalation than slowly bloodying them, not pushing them back, and bleeding their economy to death.

Regarding the initial poll -- the question is goofy. The majority of people polled surely think everyone on this forum is completely insane. The majority of the world polled thinks the Latter-day Saints worship of serial lying false prophet. We can go on and on. I don't use polls to justify my thinking or to inform me of the wisdom of others. In general, most polls are so limited that they force an unnuanced issue without much thought.

The entire premise that we are escalating if we respond, but not escalating if we don't respond is false. We didn't want to end up in WW2, so we put an embargo on Japan... and ended up in WW2. Trump wanted to dig up dirt on Biden to hurt his election so he sent proxies to Ukraine.... and revealed dirt that got himself impeached and defeated (even if you assume the election was stolen, what Trump hoped for in his Ukraine action led to the opposite). The point in conflating all these issues, is the smart approach that people assume they are taking does not end up where they assume it would take them.

No -- in most cases I'm increasingly convinced the best approach is the Kantian approach. Do what is right. If your neighbor is under attack, asks for help, and you can help him -- then help him. Period.
If there is a virus going around and you think you can stop it by removing civil liberties, even if they seem silly, don't. Civil liberties are more important than life -- even it it kills grandma. By all means persuade people through your words, not coercion, to do what you think is best.

All that said, I struggle to how Jesus would respond here. Surely, he'd call for peace and an end to invasion or escalation. I honestly, don't like where that leads as it's a pretty dangerous weapon in the hands of a tyrant to know that your neighbor will submit and follow Christ. But maybe the Lord wants us to place our trust in him and suffer the consequences of our disobedience while we are humbled? Not a happy thought.

Nothing unites conservatives and liberals more than the Russia scare 2.0. If only republican politicians treated in-country threats to the US as seriously as they take their feelings towards Russia’s threat to the US.