LDS Freedom Forum

iWriteStuff wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 7:57 am

Mamabear wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 7:41 am. Several years ago Christofferson gave a talk I think about his gay brother, who “doesn’t act on it”…..this was the gateway to what is happening now.

Update by Br. Christofferson as of December 2021:

christoffersondating.jpg

I wonder what he means by "dating". If he means just hanging out with a group of friends... no problem.
However, I suspect he means deliberately seeking out other homo's, holding hands etc.
That is not acceptable.

He laments the prospect of spending the rest of his life alone. What makes him so special? Millions of people are in a similar situation, including my autistic daughter.

If he's lonely he could find some other lonely people and keep them company, without reference to their sexual preferences.
He certainly shouldn't have a TR if he starts dating other homo's.

**Clarifier: I have an older brother who has been single his entire adult life. Not gay, and not sinning. Guess what? Loneliness is a fact of life for the majority of people. Even among some married couples. It's not a very good excuse for sin.

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 11:42 am

spiritMan wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 5:36 am Same sex non sexual behavior is already decriminalized.

We have openly homosexual missionaries who come out and post pride messages on their missionary pages. This is accepted.

Anyone who thinks we aren't already a homosexual affirming Church is living in the past.

The ONLY thing unacceptable right now is homosexual sexual actions.

So same sex attraction is a sin? How so? Having SSA and being celibate is not a sin.

You are leaving one very important piece out.

Many members are the way you described except they have pride in their "eternal identity" and expect the church to cave to the world in these things. Which they will.

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 11:42 am

spiritMan wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 5:36 am Same sex non sexual behavior is already decriminalized.

We have openly homosexual missionaries who come out and post pride messages on their missionary pages. This is accepted.

Anyone who thinks we aren't already a homosexual affirming Church is living in the past.

The ONLY thing unacceptable right now is homosexual sexual actions.

So same sex attraction is a sin? How so? Having SSA and being celibate is not a sin.

Is sexual desire towards an individual who is not your spouse a sin?

spiritMan wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 12:42 pm Is sexual desire towards an individual who is not your spouse a sin?

In-dwelling sin (Rom 7:20).

Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 11:53 am

iWriteStuff wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 7:57 am

Mamabear wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 7:41 am. Several years ago Christofferson gave a talk I think about his gay brother, who “doesn’t act on it”…..this was the gateway to what is happening now.

Update by Br. Christofferson as of December 2021:

christoffersondating.jpg

I wonder what he means by "dating".

I do not know why it is that Christians want to carry water for these individuals. They carry water by trying to parse their words in such a way that they can legalese or lawyer themselves into saying . . ."well it's okay".

Please, the dude is openly homosexual. He was openly having sexual relations with another man. He says he stopped being in that type of a relationship to get back into Church. He is still openly homosexual. He now says he wants to date.

Let's break it down to what it this idiot is really saying: "I was in a sexual relationship with another dude and it really wasn't working out, so I decided to quit that relationship and "come back" to Church because I'd get all sorts of praise for doing so but I still want to have sex with other men so now I'm going to 'date'"

He deceived himself and a whole slew of soft Christians, when the reality is that he just wanted to break from his previous sexual partner and find a new one.

He didn't change, he didn't find Christ, he didn't repent, he didn't have a change of heart. It was all a very wicked and evil deceptive lie.

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 11:42 am So same sex attraction is a sin? How so? Having SSA and being celibate is not a sin.

This is like saying “I’m addicted to porn, but I don’t watch it.” Or “I am attracted to children, but I don’t act on it.”

Absolutely ridiculous IMO.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 12:55 pm This is like saying “I’m addicted to porn, but I don’t watch it.” Or “I am attracted to children, but I don’t act on it.”

Absolutely ridiculous IMO.

So being addicted to porn and not consuming it or having lustful thoughts are a sin now? You are saying that no one can repent of a porn addiction, alcoholism, drug addiction etc.!

That is what Satan teaches!

spiritMan wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 12:42 pm
Is sexual desire towards an individual who is not your spouse a sin?

Lust is a sin, whether homo or hetero.

If a man is attracted to a woman, is that a sin?

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 1:00 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 12:55 pm This is like saying “I’m addicted to porn, but I don’t watch it.” Or “I am attracted to children, but I don’t act on it.”

Absolutely ridiculous IMO.

So being addicted to porn and not consuming it or having lustful thoughts are a sin now? You are saying that no one can repent of a porn addiction, alcoholism, drug addiction etc.!

That is what Satan teaches!

You like to put words in people’s mouth that they never said. Where in the hell did I ever say that no one can repent of those things? I want that question answered first.

Now, yes it’s sinful. Christ taught that if a man lusts after another woman he has committed adultery in his heart. Why does this not apply to those who lust after sin? Is that not sinning in their heart?

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 12:55 pm

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 11:42 am So same sex attraction is a sin? How so? Having SSA and being celibate is not a sin.

This is like saying “I’m addicted to porn, but I don’t watch it.” Or “I am attracted to children, but I don’t act on it.”

Absolutely ridiculous IMO.

I know what you're saying, and I agree with it 99.9%.
The only caveat is regarding the nature of addiction. A sister in my ward is a genuinely recovered alcoholic. She is a national leader in Alcoholic Anonymous and has been free of alcohol for over 20 years. But she still considers herself addicted and describes herself as an alcoholic.
She says she always will be while in mortality.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 12:55 pm

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 11:42 am So same sex attraction is a sin? How so? Having SSA and being celibate is not a sin.

This is like saying “I’m addicted to porn, but I don’t watch it.” Or “I am attracted to children, but I don’t act on it.”

Absolutely ridiculous IMO.

Gad, cmon…..You’re straining at gnats here. Homosexual behavior isn’t that bad, if you don’t act on it…. Neither are pornographic or pedophilia thoughts. Quit being old fashioned.
The leaders are calling out sin and repentance left and right.
Why, didn’t you hear Oaks talk at Virginia U in November? I mean he talked about non discrimination and fairness for all like a lawyer but then at the q&a he cried repentance and faith in Christ to the people who really needed it. And all the other leaders are crying repentance to the people especially for sexual sin and the murder of millions of babies, I mean fetuses. Oh and the leaders are throwing a fit about homosexual men speaking at youth firesides….They have put a stop to that. You’ve got it all wrong, they are fighting evil at every turn.

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 1:03 pm

If a man is attracted to a woman, is that a sin?

No, it's natural. It's the way we're designed.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 1:17 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 12:55 pm

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 11:42 am So same sex attraction is a sin? How so? Having SSA and being celibate is not a sin.

This is like saying “I’m addicted to porn, but I don’t watch it.” Or “I am attracted to children, but I don’t act on it.”

Absolutely ridiculous IMO.

I know what you're saying, and I agree with it 99.9%.
The only caveat is regarding the nature of addiction. A sister in my ward is a genuinely recovered alcoholic. She is a national leader in Alcoholic Anonymous and has been free of alcohol for over 20 years. But she still considers herself addicted and describes herself as an alcoholic.
She says she always will be while in mortality.

Yeah. Being in these bodies we will naturally suffer from carnal temptation. But I think that labeling yourself as a "sinner" isn't the correct approach. Especially in regard to sexual addictions...

Is she an alcoholic? She may have those temptations arise, but is admittedly free of the addiction. I personally wouldn't classify her as an addict. Comes down to semantics about terms and definitions.

We may have suffered addictions in the past, but through Christ we are made new. That is not who we are. I will never identify as something less. No one should.

Mamabear wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 1:17 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 12:55 pm

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 11:42 am So same sex attraction is a sin? How so? Having SSA and being celibate is not a sin.

This is like saying “I’m addicted to porn, but I don’t watch it.” Or “I am attracted to children, but I don’t act on it.”

Absolutely ridiculous IMO.

Gad, cmon…..You’re straining at gnats here. Homosexual behavior isn’t that bad, if you don’t act on it…. Neither are pornographic or pedophilia thoughts. Quit being old fashioned.
The leaders are calling out sin and repentance left and right.
Why, didn’t you hear Oaks talk at Virginia U in November? I mean he talked about non discrimination and fairness for all like a lawyer but then at the q&a he cried repentance and faith in Christ to the people who really needed it. And all the other leaders are crying repentance to the people especially for sexual sin and the murder of millions of babies, I mean fetuses. Oh and the leaders are throwing a fit about homosexual men speaking at youth firesides….They have put a stop to that. You’ve got it all wrong, they are fighting evil at every turn.

First they were gnats, then birds, then cows, and now they are whales.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 1:17 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 12:55 pm

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 11:42 am So same sex attraction is a sin? How so? Having SSA and being celibate is not a sin.

This is like saying “I’m addicted to porn, but I don’t watch it.” Or “I am attracted to children, but I don’t act on it.”

Absolutely ridiculous IMO.

But she still considers herself addicted and describes herself as an alcoholic.
She says she always will be while in mortality.

She is a prisoner of her own chains. She build the cage and has imprisoned herself.

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 1:00 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 12:55 pm This is like saying “I’m addicted to porn, but I don’t watch it.” Or “I am attracted to children, but I don’t act on it.”

Absolutely ridiculous IMO.

So being addicted to porn and not consuming it or having lustful thoughts are a sin now? You are saying that no one can repent of a porn addiction, alcoholism, drug addiction etc.!

That is what Satan teaches!

"having lustful thoughts are a sin now?"
.....
"That is what Satan teaches!"

Matthew 5:27-30
"27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."

Ummm. That's not a good look for you. You have just declared that what is written in God's Word, what comes from Christ's mouth is what Satan teaches.

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 1:03 pm

spiritMan wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 12:42 pm
Is sexual desire towards an individual who is not your spouse a sin?

Lust is a sin, whether homo or hetero.

If a man is attracted to a woman, is that a sin?

Homosexuality takes that which is fertile and makes it sterile. Our modern concepts have almost done the same. Hence the reason sodomy is raging.

spiritMan wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 1:36 pm

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 1:00 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 12:55 pm This is like saying “I’m addicted to porn, but I don’t watch it.” Or “I am attracted to children, but I don’t act on it.”

Absolutely ridiculous IMO.

So being addicted to porn and not consuming it or having lustful thoughts are a sin now? You are saying that no one can repent of a porn addiction, alcoholism, drug addiction etc.!

That is what Satan teaches!

"having lustful thoughts are a sin now?"
.....
"That is what Satan teaches!"

Matthew 5:27-30
"27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."

Ummm. That's not a good look for you. You have just declared that what is written in God's Word, what comes from Christ's mouth is what Satan teaches.

In relation to plucking out the eye... the JST of Mark 9 is relevant to Oldeman's thread about the leaders. Pluck em' out when they transgress.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 1:19 pm

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 1:03 pm

If a man is attracted to a woman, is that a sin?

No, it's natural. It's the way we're designed.

Christ calls us to a higher purpose than to the "natural" way or "natural" man.

The "natural" man has ungodly sexual desire. It doesn't matter if that sexual desire is for people, children, plants, animals, or whatever else. Sexual desire is "natural", but only sexual desire towards one's opposite sex spouse is godly.

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 1:03 pm

spiritMan wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 12:42 pm
Is sexual desire towards an individual who is not your spouse a sin?

Lust is a sin, whether homo or hetero.

If a man is attracted to a woman, is that a sin?

If it is lust; "i.e. ungodly desire" then yes absolutely.

You need to get your definitions and terms correct and it's one of the sophistries of the LGBTQ+ movement; they have polluted words to mean a whole bunch of things.

Define for me EXACTLY what you mean when you say "attraction" in the above sentence and I'll bet you can easily figure out if it's of god or not.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 1:17 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 12:55 pm

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 11:42 am So same sex attraction is a sin? How so? Having SSA and being celibate is not a sin.

This is like saying “I’m addicted to porn, but I don’t watch it.” Or “I am attracted to children, but I don’t act on it.”

Absolutely ridiculous IMO.

She is a national leader in Alcoholic Anonymous and has been free of alcohol for over 20 years. But she still considers herself addicted and describes herself as an alcoholic.
She says she always will be while in mortality.

She is married to an ideology, the ideology of AA; it is not biblical.

You won't find any mention of anything in God's Word that has any remote correlation to our definition of "addiction".

spiritMan wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 1:39 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 1:19 pm

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 1:03 pm

If a man is attracted to a woman, is that a sin?

No, it's natural. It's the way we're designed.

Christ calls us to a higher purpose than to the "natural" way or "natural" man.

The "natural" man has ungodly sexual desire. It doesn't matter if that sexual desire is for people, children, plants, animals, or whatever else. Sexual desire is "natural", but only sexual desire towards one's opposite sex spouse is godly.

Who said anything about ungodly sexual desire? I'm talking about the God given attraction we have to our spouse.
Why did you immediately think it was something else?

Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 1:45 pm

spiritMan wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 1:39 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 1:19 pm

Oldemandalton wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 1:03 pm

If a man is attracted to a woman, is that a sin?

No, it's natural. It's the way we're designed.

Christ calls us to a higher purpose than to the "natural" way or "natural" man.

The "natural" man has ungodly sexual desire. It doesn't matter if that sexual desire is for people, children, plants, animals, or whatever else. Sexual desire is "natural", but only sexual desire towards one's opposite sex spouse is godly.

Who said anything about ungodly sexual desire? I'm talking about the God given attraction we have to our spouse.
Why did you immediately think it was something else?

The reason I make a distinction is because we say that homosexual desire is not "natural" . . .when in fact it is "natural".
It is ungodly but natural.

I'm trying to make it explicitly clear that there is a difference between godly ways and ungodly ways vs. what is "natural" and "the way we're designed".

To be a little more blunt. God could have designed our bodies in such a way that sodomidic acts are impossible; but he didn't. I think it's a very bad argument to use the term "the way we are designed". Because we are designed in such a way that we can have sexual activities in plenty of ways.

godly vs. ungodly is more clear.

spiritMan wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 1:54 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 1:45 pm

spiritMan wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 1:39 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 1:19 pm

No, it's natural. It's the way we're designed.

Christ calls us to a higher purpose than to the "natural" way or "natural" man.

The "natural" man has ungodly sexual desire. It doesn't matter if that sexual desire is for people, children, plants, animals, or whatever else. Sexual desire is "natural", but only sexual desire towards one's opposite sex spouse is godly.

Who said anything about ungodly sexual desire? I'm talking about the God given attraction we have to our spouse.
Why did you immediately think it was something else?

The reason I make a distinction is because we say that homosexual desire is not "natural" . . .when in fact it is "natural".
It is ungodly but natural.

I'm trying to make it explicitly clear that there is a difference between godly ways and ungodly ways vs. what is "natural" and "the way we're designed".

To be a little more blunt. God could have designed our bodies in such a way that sodomidic acts are impossible; but he didn't. I think it's a very bad argument to use the term "the way we are designed". Because we are designed in such a way that we can have sexual activities in plenty of ways.

godly vs. ungodly is more clear.

But we're not designed to have sexual activity in plenty of ways. We're designed to have it in a specific way in order to procreate. The fact that man can and does pervert that, does not mean that a man having an appropriate sexual desire for a woman is wrong. Whereas a man having a sexual desire for another man can never be appropriate and is always, without exception, wrong.
I think you're conflating "natural" with "natural man" and that's not helpful. Even Paul refers to "natural" use in a sexual context.