Which of these is not mentioned by name in the Bible?

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Which of these is not mentioned in the Bible?

Ankara
9
29%
Memphis (not Tennessee)
0
No votes
India
11
35%
Spain
9
29%
Crete
2
6%
 
Total votes: 31
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Niemand
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Which of these is not mentioned by name in the Bible?

Post by Niemand »

Fun poll from elsewhere.

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BuriedTartaria
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Re: Which of these is not mentioned by name in the Bible?

Post by BuriedTartaria »

Spain?

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Luke
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Re: Which of these is not mentioned by name in the Bible?

Post by Luke »

BuriedTartaria wrote: March 13th, 2022, 9:51 am Spain?
Spain definitely is, it’s where Jonah was headed.

And I think Paul mentions it.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Which of these is not mentioned by name in the Bible?

Post by Robin Hood »

Luke wrote: March 13th, 2022, 10:02 am
BuriedTartaria wrote: March 13th, 2022, 9:51 am Spain?
Spain definitely is, it’s where Jonah was headed.

And I think Paul mentions it.
I think Jonah was heading for Tarshish. Although there is a place called Tarshish in Spain, I don't believe Spain itself was mentioned.

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Luke
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Re: Which of these is not mentioned by name in the Bible?

Post by Luke »

Robin Hood wrote: March 13th, 2022, 10:06 am
Luke wrote: March 13th, 2022, 10:02 am
BuriedTartaria wrote: March 13th, 2022, 9:51 am Spain?
Spain definitely is, it’s where Jonah was headed.

And I think Paul mentions it.
I think Jonah was heading for Tarshish. Although there is a place called Tarshish in Spain, I don't believe Spain itself was mentioned.
Regardless, Paul mentions it twice:
  • Romans 15
    24 Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company.
    28 When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.

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Niemand
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Re: Which of these is not mentioned by name in the Bible?

Post by Niemand »

Robin Hood wrote: March 13th, 2022, 10:06 am
Luke wrote: March 13th, 2022, 10:02 am
BuriedTartaria wrote: March 13th, 2022, 9:51 am Spain?
Spain definitely is, it’s where Jonah was headed.

And I think Paul mentions it.
I think Jonah was heading for Tarshish. Although there is a place called Tarshish in Spain, I don't believe Spain itself was mentioned.
Some people say Tarshish was in the British Isles. Controversial!

I'll give the answer in a few hours. :)

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Robin Hood
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Re: Which of these is not mentioned by name in the Bible?

Post by Robin Hood »

Niemand wrote: March 13th, 2022, 11:29 am
Robin Hood wrote: March 13th, 2022, 10:06 am
Luke wrote: March 13th, 2022, 10:02 am
BuriedTartaria wrote: March 13th, 2022, 9:51 am Spain?
Spain definitely is, it’s where Jonah was headed.

And I think Paul mentions it.
I think Jonah was heading for Tarshish. Although there is a place called Tarshish in Spain, I don't believe Spain itself was mentioned.
Some people say Tarshish was in the British Isles. Controversial!

I'll give the answer in a few hours. :)
That is my belief.
A bloke in my ward did a major study on it a few years back and concluded that Tarshish was clearly the British Isles.

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Luke
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Re: Which of these is not mentioned by name in the Bible?

Post by Luke »

Robin Hood wrote: March 13th, 2022, 11:52 am
Niemand wrote: March 13th, 2022, 11:29 am
Robin Hood wrote: March 13th, 2022, 10:06 am
Luke wrote: March 13th, 2022, 10:02 am

Spain definitely is, it’s where Jonah was headed.

And I think Paul mentions it.
I think Jonah was heading for Tarshish. Although there is a place called Tarshish in Spain, I don't believe Spain itself was mentioned.
Some people say Tarshish was in the British Isles. Controversial!

I'll give the answer in a few hours. :)
That is my belief.
A bloke in my ward did a major study on it a few years back and concluded that Tarshish was clearly the British Isles.
I'll definitely have to look into this. Did he ever write his research down?

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Robin Hood
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Re: Which of these is not mentioned by name in the Bible?

Post by Robin Hood »

Luke wrote: March 13th, 2022, 12:34 pm
Robin Hood wrote: March 13th, 2022, 11:52 am
Niemand wrote: March 13th, 2022, 11:29 am
Robin Hood wrote: March 13th, 2022, 10:06 am

I think Jonah was heading for Tarshish. Although there is a place called Tarshish in Spain, I don't believe Spain itself was mentioned.
Some people say Tarshish was in the British Isles. Controversial!

I'll give the answer in a few hours. :)
That is my belief.
A bloke in my ward did a major study on it a few years back and concluded that Tarshish was clearly the British Isles.
I'll definitely have to look into this. Did he ever write his research down?
He did a very good presentation to the ward so he probably still has it. I'll speak to him.
The prophecy of the 70 year reigning Tarshish king/monarch is interesting, given that this year is Elizabeth's 70th year on the throne.
There were other prophecies connected with this. For example, he was able to predict Brexit long before it was even a glint in Nigel Farage's eye.

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Niemand
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Re: Which of these is not mentioned by name in the Bible?

Post by Niemand »

Robin Hood wrote: March 13th, 2022, 11:52 am
Niemand wrote: March 13th, 2022, 11:29 am
Robin Hood wrote: March 13th, 2022, 10:06 am
Luke wrote: March 13th, 2022, 10:02 am

Spain definitely is, it’s where Jonah was headed.

And I think Paul mentions it.
I think Jonah was heading for Tarshish. Although there is a place called Tarshish in Spain, I don't believe Spain itself was mentioned.
Some people say Tarshish was in the British Isles. Controversial!

I'll give the answer in a few hours. :)
That is my belief.
A bloke in my ward did a major study on it a few years back and concluded that Tarshish was clearly the British Isles.
I have heard two other explanations:

* Tarshish and "the isles" refer to places across the Mediterranean. Apparently they considered Mainland Greece, not just the Aegean to be "isles" ditto mainland Italy, Gaul, Spain, parts of North Africa, because you'd take a ship to get to them.

* Barry Fell and some others suggest it was a reference to the New World.

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francisco.colaco
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Re: Which of these is not mentioned by name in the Bible?

Post by francisco.colaco »

Spain was more than one millenium from ever coming to exist.

Even the Roman Hispania is from the later part of the 2nd Century BC.
Robin Hood wrote: March 13th, 2022, 10:06 am
Luke wrote: March 13th, 2022, 10:02 am
BuriedTartaria wrote: March 13th, 2022, 9:51 am Spain?
Spain definitely is, it’s where Jonah was headed.

And I think Paul mentions it.
I think Jonah was heading for Tarshish. Although there is a place called Tarshish in Spain, I don't believe Spain itself was mentioned.

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Niemand
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Re: Which of these is not mentioned by name in the Bible?

Post by Niemand »

francisco.colaco wrote: March 13th, 2022, 5:01 pm Spain was more than one millenium from ever coming to exist.

Even the Roman Hispania is from the later part of the 2nd Century BC.
Robin Hood wrote: March 13th, 2022, 10:06 am
Luke wrote: March 13th, 2022, 10:02 am
BuriedTartaria wrote: March 13th, 2022, 9:51 am Spain?
Spain definitely is, it’s where Jonah was headed.

And I think Paul mentions it.
I think Jonah was heading for Tarshish. Although there is a place called Tarshish in Spain, I don't believe Spain itself was mentioned.
We've had this conversation here before. NB - some people think that Jonah was heading for Gades/Cadiz, although the name Spain is not mwntioned.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Which of these is not mentioned by name in the Bible?

Post by Robin Hood »

francisco.colaco wrote: March 13th, 2022, 5:01 pm Spain was more than one millenium from ever coming to exist.

Even the Roman Hispania is from the later part of the 2nd Century BC.
Robin Hood wrote: March 13th, 2022, 10:06 am
Luke wrote: March 13th, 2022, 10:02 am
BuriedTartaria wrote: March 13th, 2022, 9:51 am Spain?
Spain definitely is, it’s where Jonah was headed.

And I think Paul mentions it.
I think Jonah was heading for Tarshish. Although there is a place called Tarshish in Spain, I don't believe Spain itself was mentioned.
So the mention of Spain was the result of interpretation by the biblical translators.
Interesting.

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BroJones
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Re: Which of these is not mentioned by name in the Bible?

Post by BroJones »

Niemand wrote: March 13th, 2022, 4:03 pm
Robin Hood wrote: March 13th, 2022, 11:52 am
Niemand wrote: March 13th, 2022, 11:29 am
Robin Hood wrote: March 13th, 2022, 10:06 am

I think Jonah was heading for Tarshish. Although there is a place called Tarshish in Spain, I don't believe Spain itself was mentioned.
Some people say Tarshish was in the British Isles. Controversial!

I'll give the answer in a few hours. :)
That is my belief.
A bloke in my ward did a major study on it a few years back and concluded that Tarshish was clearly the British Isles.
I have heard two other explanations:

* Tarshish and "the isles" refer to places across the Mediterranean. Apparently they considered Mainland Greece, not just the Aegean to be "isles" ditto mainland Italy, Gaul, Spain, parts of North Africa, because you'd take a ship to get to them.

* Barry Fell and some others suggest it was a reference to the New World.
Barry fell... very interesting fellow. Is he still alive?

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Niemand
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Re: Which of these is not mentioned by name in the Bible?

Post by Niemand »

Answers - there may be additional material I haven't mentioned.
Spoiler
Memphis is mentioned 8 times in the OT. it is known as Moph in Hebrew ( מֹ֣ף) or Noph (נֹ֑ף - Hosea 9.6). Isaiah 19, several times in Jeremiah, Ezekiel 30.

Spain
Romans 15.24 mentioned above.

Crete
Acts 27
And because the haven was not commodious to winter in, the more part advised to depart thence also, if by any means they might attain to Phenice, and there to winter; which is an haven of Crete, and lieth toward the south west and north west. And when the south wind blew softly, supposing that they had obtained their purpose, loosing thence, they sailed close by Crete.
India
Esther 1.1 (also 8.9 )
Now it came to pass in the days of Ahasuerus, (this is Ahasuerus which reigned, from India even unto Ethiopia, over an hundred and seven and twenty provinces:)
The Hebrew for India here is "Hodu" ( הֹ֣דּוּ ) and Ethiopia is "Cush" ( כּ֔וּשׁ ). India is also mentioned in the Apocrypha.

Image
1 Maccabees 6:37 mentions Indians and howdahs (see picture above)
And upon the beasts [elephants] were there strong towers of wood, which covered every one of them, and were girt fast unto them with devices: there were also upon every one two and thirty strong men, that fought upon them, beside the Indian [ὁ ἰνδὸς] that ruled him.
Ankara is a bit of a problem. Its old name was Angora, as in Angora sweater etc, but I've seen arguments about whether it is mentioned or not. But Asia Minor/Anatolia is mentioned a number of times in the Bible.

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Niemand
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Re: Which of these is not mentioned by name in the Bible?

Post by Niemand »

BroJones wrote: March 13th, 2022, 5:17 pm
Niemand wrote: March 13th, 2022, 4:03 pm
Robin Hood wrote: March 13th, 2022, 11:52 am
Niemand wrote: March 13th, 2022, 11:29 am

Some people say Tarshish was in the British Isles. Controversial!

I'll give the answer in a few hours. :)
That is my belief.
A bloke in my ward did a major study on it a few years back and concluded that Tarshish was clearly the British Isles.
I have heard two other explanations:

* Tarshish and "the isles" refer to places across the Mediterranean. Apparently they considered Mainland Greece, not just the Aegean to be "isles" ditto mainland Italy, Gaul, Spain, parts of North Africa, because you'd take a ship to get to them.

* Barry Fell and some others suggest it was a reference to the New World.
Barry fell... very interesting fellow. Is he still alive?
Long dead, I"m afraid. I'm grateful the local library out at the small town I lived near used to stocked America BC. I brought it back and my father was taken with it. He's since drawn the ire of the thought police so it would be hard to find him in the present day.

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francisco.colaco
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Re: Which of these is not mentioned by name in the Bible?

Post by francisco.colaco »

A contemporary stone was found in the island of Sardinia with the inscription Tarshish referring to the proper island. Also, Sardinia had silver.

The other three strong candidates before the discovery of the stone were the island of Tarsus (no silver there), near Turkey, Tunis (no silver there), and Tartessus, near present-day Cadiz, Spain, (lots of silver there, at the Peninsula).

Only the most idiotic kind of history twisters like those that say that the work 'nigger' comes from an expression in Nigeria for 'prince' instead of the Portuguese word 'negro', meaning 'black' (and those people do exist) would suggest the British Isles as Tarshish.

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Niemand
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Re: Which of these is not mentioned by name in the Bible?

Post by Niemand »

francisco.colaco wrote: March 14th, 2022, 3:09 am A contemporary stone was found in the island of Sardinia with the inscription Tarshish referring to the proper island. Also, Sardinia had silver.

The other three strong candidates before the discovery of the stone were the island of Tarsus (no silver there), near Turkey, Tunis (no silver there), and Tartessus, near present-day Cadiz, Spain, (lots of silver there, at the Peninsula).

Only the most idiotic kind of history twisters like those that say that the work 'nigger' comes from an expression in Nigeria for 'prince' instead of the Portuguese word 'negro', meaning 'black' (and those people do exist) would suggest the British Isles as Tarshish.
The main hole in your theory is that mainstream historians accept that Phoenicians were visiting the British Isles centuries before the Romans attempted to conquer them. (Which commenced in the 50s BC.) The Phonecians may have been visiting Cornwall as early as 2000 BC as traders, and certainly by 1200 BC. They were certainly not unknown to the Levant. The main export in the early period appears to have been tin although other metals were exported.

https://oxfordre.com/classics/view/10.1 ... 135-e-1410

https://www.timesofisrael.com/groundbre ... n-england/
Groundbreaking study: Ancient tin ingots found in Israel were mined in England

Enigma of origins of Bronze Age Levant’s tin supply solved through isotope and chemical composition analysis that shows 13th–12th century BCE tin bars likely came from Cornwall...
The scholars used an earth-shattering approach to figure out the mine’s locus. “By using a combined approach of tin and lead isotopes together with trace elements it is possible to narrow down the potential sources of tin for the first time,” they write.

The most logical source? According to the authors, the most likely suppliers of the 13th–12th century BCE tin ingots from Israel are tin mines from Cornwall and Devon.
“These results specifically identify the origin of tin metal for the first time and therefore give rise to new insights and questions for archaeological research,” said lead author Dr. Daniel Berger, a researcher at the Curt Engelhorn Centre for Archaeometry in Mannheim.
Not only that, they have been able to narrow it down to a tin deposit between modern Redruth and Helston.

The second problem is that the British Isles were (and still are) extremely rich in minerals (including silver), which is partly why the Industrial Revolution started there... it's also one of the reasons the Romans took an interest in the place.

This map represents a fraction of the mineral extraction at the time. Many of the Celtic tribes who were there before the Romans were already mining it, and even making coins from the gold and silver.
Image

Ezekiel 27.11
Tarshish was thy merchant by reason of the multitude of all kind of riches; with silver, iron, tin, and lead, they traded in thy fairs.
All of these metals can be found in the island of Britain - see Roman mining map above, plus reference to tin.

However, the phrase "Ships of Tarshish" appears to refer to trading ships, especially those that came in from the west. There are references to apes and peacocks arriving on some of these, which indicates not everything is coming from there originally. Neither apes nor peacocks are native to Europe nor the other locations you mentioned. Certainly not Sardinia. An examination of the texts shows there was probably more than one Tarshish, but it is connected with an island and with a rainy place in some contexts.

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francisco.colaco
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Re: Which of these is not mentioned by name in the Bible?

Post by francisco.colaco »

The Iberian Peninsula was mined for tin, silver, gold, copper. Still is.

Sardinia also had mines of all those metals. And there was found a plaque that said it was Tarshish by an American explorer in a script we can read.

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Niemand
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Re: Which of these is not mentioned by name in the Bible?

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francisco.colaco wrote: March 14th, 2022, 4:13 pm The Iberian Peninsula was mined for tin, silver, gold, copper. Still is.

Sardinia also had mines of all those metals. And there was found a plaque that said it was Tarshish by an American explorer in a script we can read.
I'm sure it did.

Nearly everybody's heard of Albania. They know it as a country nexr to Greece and Italy. Most of them aren't aware of the other two - Caucasian Albania and also Scotland, known in Gaelic as Alba or Alban and anciently in English as Albany or Albania.

There is more than one Albania. And there is more than one Georgia (also in the Caucasus, like Albania), more than one Athens & Memphis (not just in America, hence my poll comment above). There is even more than one Alexandria (in Caledonian Albania, between Glasgow and Loch Lomond). There are also two other Ukraines, in Russia (if we want to be topical!)

How many places share names? A lot. Every state in the USA, famously, has a Springfield hence the use of the name in the Simpsons... There are places in the Bible which share the same name, but have different locations.

The more I learn about Tarshish, it is clear that it refers to more than one place. Apes and peacocks are not native to Sardinia, yet they are recorded on the ships of Tarshish (probably sailing from India or Persia). Other references suggest Tarshish refers to places at the west end of the Med. The ancients there did know about the British Isles before the Romans, and they were trading all those metals from there - I hope the material I linked to above makes that clear.

Britain was a far more reliable source of tin than Spain. There was much more of it there and it was being traded to the east.

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Subcomandante
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Re: Which of these is not mentioned by name in the Bible?

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Robin Hood wrote: March 13th, 2022, 10:06 am
Luke wrote: March 13th, 2022, 10:02 am
BuriedTartaria wrote: March 13th, 2022, 9:51 am Spain?
Spain definitely is, it’s where Jonah was headed.

And I think Paul mentions it.
I think Jonah was heading for Tarshish. Although there is a place called Tarshish in Spain, I don't believe Spain itself was mentioned.
In the Reina Valera the name España is mentioned. I do not think Ankara is mentioned but I could be wrong.

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Niemand
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Re: Which of these is not mentioned by name in the Bible?

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Subcomandante wrote: March 14th, 2022, 7:04 pm
Robin Hood wrote: March 13th, 2022, 10:06 am
Luke wrote: March 13th, 2022, 10:02 am
BuriedTartaria wrote: March 13th, 2022, 9:51 am Spain?
Spain definitely is, it’s where Jonah was headed.

And I think Paul mentions it.
I think Jonah was heading for Tarshish. Although there is a place called Tarshish in Spain, I don't believe Spain itself was mentioned.
In the Reina Valera the name España is mentioned. I do not think Ankara is mentioned but I could be wrong.
Answers hidden above.

It is worth pointing out names such Spain, Italy, Greece, Britain, Ireland all predate the modern states by a long time. Hispania was certainly a region of the Roman Empire long before the Moors were invaded, kicked out and the Kingdom of Spain emerged. Ditto Britannia - a Roman province many centuries before the establishment of the British state.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Which of these is not mentioned by name in the Bible?

Post by Silver Pie »

Fascinating topic.

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francisco.colaco
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Re: Which of these is not mentioned by name in the Bible?

Post by francisco.colaco »

Niemand,

The name Hispania was pot by the Romans about 200 BC. The name probably came from ancient Carthaginian Is_Paniis (don't ask me what it means). How the people called the Iberian Peninsula before it is as much of a mystery as the languages that were spoken there before Latin overruled them: only Basque -- in a small region at the North of Spain -- survived to this day.

One thing we are sure of. Nobody in present day Portugal or Spain could understand the gibberish the Celts or the Iberians or Tarragonians spoke in this same place before the Romans civilised them -- and got the military tactics of the legions from the Celtiberians, including the gladius.

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Niemand
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Re: Which of these is not mentioned by name in the Bible?

Post by Niemand »

francisco.colaco wrote: December 7th, 2022, 9:12 am Niemand,

The name Hispania was pot by the Romans about 200 BC. The name probably came from ancient Carthaginian Is_Paniis (don't ask me what it means). How the people called the Iberian Peninsula before it is as much of a mystery as the languages that were spoken there before Latin overruled them: only Basque -- in a small region at the North of Spain -- survived to this day.

One thing we are sure of. Nobody in present day Portugal or Spain could understand the gibberish the Celts or the Iberians or Tarragonians spoke in this same place before the Romans civilised them -- and got the military tactics of the legions from the Celtiberians, including the gladius.
The way Portuguese and Castillian use the copula is similar to insular Celtic – este bueno/'s math...

I wouldn't call Celtic gibberish, some of us still understand it today. I can understand the three Gaelic languages and have also picked up a little Welsh (a language which many people still speak.)

Hispania supposedly means "land of rabbits". Iberia may be etymologically connected to Hibernia (Ireland) and the Hebrews although that is much more controversial.

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