Depersonalising our Chapels

[Niemand]

Had a conversation with an older member of our ward this morning about the depersonalisation of our chapels. He has been involved at stake level admin on and off for decades.

He tells me the chapel of one of the other units in our stake has a memorial bench outside it. The higher ups are demanding this be removed. Also that all artwork in our chapels is correlated, that missionary plaques cannot be put up on walls (but can be put on noticeboards etc)

This kind of stupidity has been ongoing for decades, but what a contrast to other churches and synagogues I have seen. In local churches of other denominations, other than the JWs, there tend to be memorial.plaques, original art, all kinds of things. In our local synagogue, which I've been in once when it was open to the public, there are signs on the seats because people rent them! (That's another extreme.)

It seems sad that our local members,.many of whom are dead or moved on, built our chapel, but even though it is theirs in a sense, it has to be homogenised and made more and more bland.

[ransomme]

Yeah there is a ward here where an old bishop painted this large beautiful, professional-level painting of the Last Supper but the country's FM told them to remove it

[tribrac]

Nelsons war on pioneers didnt end when he relented on the manti temple art work.

Rumour has it all the local chapels had their community heritage artwork...removed. Drawn by local artists, hung in ward buildings for 100years and part of the comunity....some of it highly valuable. And lds inc took it all.

[Niemand]

Nelsons war on pioneers didnt end when he relented on the manti temple art work.

Rumour has it all the local chapels had their community heritage artwork...removed. Drawn by local artists, hung in ward buildings for 100years and part of the comunity....some of it highly valuable. And lds inc took it all.

It almost makes me think President Nelson is anti-Mormon... oh wait, he is, by his own admission.

Can't have our own heritage or anything. That kind of thing builds roots and community, and binds the hearts of the fathers to the sons...

[WikiUp]

Better to drop the "... of Latter-Day Saints" part and just call us "The Church of Jesus Christ."

We're not that special as to need that time period reference identification.

But then, some church organization may have already copyrighted that name.

[inho]

that missionary plaques cannot be put up on walls (but can be put on noticeboards etc)

What is this?

[Lizzy60]

Better to drop the "... of Latter-Day Saints" part and just call us "The Church of Jesus Christ."

We're not that special as to need that time period reference identification.

But then, some church organization may have already copyrighted that name.

There is a church that uses that name, which is why the LDS church does not have “The” in the name of their website. Also, if you listen to non-denominational preachers, they often call followers of Christ “the church of Jesus Christ” referring to believers, without referencing any particular denomination or congregation.

https://thechurchofjesuschrist.org/

[Silver Pie]

Better to drop the "... of Latter-Day Saints" part and just call us "The Church of Jesus Christ."

We're not that special as to need that time period reference identification.

But then, some church organization may have already copyrighted that name.

A more accurate name would be "The Church of the current president of Bonneville Corp" or something like that. The Church of the Prophet of the latter days.

[BuriedTartaria]

Nelsons war on pioneers didnt end when he relented on the manti temple art work.

This sort of stuff removes heart. It removes legacy, identity, long-running continuity to communities. They want to reset the LDS church to be different enough to allow to exist in a godless world. True Blue Mormons, how can't you see this?

[gkearney]

Better to drop the "... of Latter-Day Saints" part and just call us "The Church of Jesus Christ."

We're not that special as to need that time period reference identification.

But then, some church organization may have already copyrighted that name.

There is a church that uses that name, which is why the LDS church does not have “The” in the name of their website. Also, if you listen to non-denominational preachers, they often call followers of Christ “the church of Jesus Christ” referring to believers, without referencing any particular denomination or congregation.

https://thechurchofjesuschrist.org/

Just to add a bit more detail the church with that website is not just some kind of generic brand of Christianity but is, in fact, a restorations faith that traces their origins back to Sydney Rigdon.

[Dusty Wanderer]

For the manager, on the other hand, the idea of equality is repugnant and indeed counterproductive. Where promotion, perks, privilege, and power are the name of the game, awe and reverence for rank is everything, the inspiration and motivation of all good men. Where would management be without the inflexible paper processing, dress standards, attention to proper social, political, and religious affiliation, vigilant watch over habits and attitudes, and so forth, that gratify the stockholders and satisfy security?

“If you love me,” said the Greatest of all leaders, “you will keep my commandments.” “If you know what is good for me,” says the manager, “you will keep my commandments, and not make waves.” That is why the rise of management always marks the decline of culture. If the management does not go for Bach, very well, there will be no Bach in the meeting; if management favors vile, sentimental doggerel verse extolling the qualities that make for success, young people everywhere will be spouting long trade-journal jingles from the stand; if the management’s taste in art is what will sell—trite, insipid, folksy kitsch—that is what we will get; if management finds maudlin, saccharine commercials appealing, that is what the public will get; if management must reflect the corporate image in tasteless, trendy new buildings, down come the fine old pioneer monuments.

Leaders and Managers, Hugh Nibley, 1983

I'm sure it's well-known, but it just seemed so fitting based upon the OP... couldn't help myself.

Edit: Just added the date to the quote. 1983... I'm sure conditions have improved, though, since then.

[Lizzy60]

Better to drop the "... of Latter-Day Saints" part and just call us "The Church of Jesus Christ."

We're not that special as to need that time period reference identification.

But then, some church organization may have already copyrighted that name.

There is a church that uses that name, which is why the LDS church does not have “The” in the name of their website. Also, if you listen to non-denominational preachers, they often call followers of Christ “the church of Jesus Christ” referring to believers, without referencing any particular denomination or congregation.

https://thechurchofjesuschrist.org/

Just to add a bit more detail the church with that website is not just some kind of generic brand of Christianity but is, in fact, a restorations faith that traces their origins back to Sydney Rigdon.

Yes, I agree, and I was also saying that I hear non-denomination pastors talk about a “church of Jesus Christ” who are speaking generically, not about the LDS Church, or this other restoration church. If the LDS Church continues to drop the LDS part of their name, there will be confusion. There is a group in my area that calls themselves The Church of Jesus Christ of North Texas, and it’s LDS, but they never use LDS in the Facebook posts.

[Niemand]

Better to drop the "... of Latter-Day Saints" part and just call us "The Church of Jesus Christ."

We're not that special as to need that time period reference identification.

But then, some church organization may have already copyrighted that name.

There is a church that uses that name, which is why the LDS church does not have “The” in the name of their website. Also, if you listen to non-denominational preachers, they often call followers of Christ “the church of Jesus Christ” referring to believers, without referencing any particular denomination or congregation.

https://thechurchofjesuschrist.org/

Just to add a bit more detail the church with that website is not just some kind of generic brand of Christianity but is, in fact, a restorations faith that traces their origins back to Sydney Rigdon.

Yes, I agree, and I was also saying that I hear non-denomination pastors talk about a “church of Jesus Christ” who are speaking generically, not about the LDS Church, or this other restoration church. If the LDS Church continues to drop the LDS part of their name, there will be confusion. There is a group in my area that calls themselves The Church of Jesus Christ of North Texas, and it’s LDS, but they never use LDS in the Facebook posts.

Every man, woman and their dog has heard of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. How do we solve that? By calling it a name no one can remember.

[heliocentr1c]

Nelsons war on pioneers didnt end when he relented on the manti temple art work.

This sort of stuff removes heart. It removes legacy, identity, long-running continuity to communities. They want to reset the LDS church to be different enough to allow to exist in a godless world. True Blue Mormons, how can't you see this?

It’s a sort of 1984 approach to controlling large swathes of people under the guise of religion or government.

They want to disconnect members from their unique community based past and from having any sense of uniqueness in community/togetherness spanning through time like has been mentioned. In other words, they want to blot out the past so they can re-write it at will to fit whatever the current narrative is.

All forms of unique, ingenious, conspicuous or strident expression are to be expressly forbidden bc they can’t be easily controlled by the establishment and therefore represent a threat and may wake others up or cause the group at the stake/ward level to give priority to their unique ward culture ABOVE the COB/SLC mandated cultural norms and views.

It’s the same reason they want cookie-cutter, homogenized testimonies that focus and prioritize the church and the president and not anything else, unless it implies support of the church/president. Like talking about how the bishop is good/trustworthy and you have a testimony of his calling expressly/only bc he got his “keys” from the right people first (the important COB people in SLC) and is therefore automatically God’s “chosen” representative on the ward level.

[kittycat51]

When I was very young (late 60’s) I attended one of the older wards in the Salt Lake area. In the chapel up on the stand was a painting of Jesus. Most would recognize it as being the popular portrait back then. I loved it. Even as a young child when in sacrament meeting it reminded me of who I was to think about and why I was there. When my dad was made stake President, Church headquarters told him to take it down. He wasn’t to happy about it. Most weren’t either, in the ward and stake.

[Silver Pie]

When I was very young (late 60’s) I attended one of the older wards in the Salt Lake area. In the chapel up on the stand was a painting of Jesus. Most would recognize it as being the popular portrait back then. I loved it. Even as a young child when in sacrament meeting it reminded me of who I was to think about and why I was there. When my dad was made stake President, Church headquarters told him to take it down. He wasn’t to happy about it. Most weren’t either, in the ward and stake.

When I was a kid in the 60's, our chapel had stained glass windows in it. I don't recall how many years ago they were removed, but it has been decades. I could never understand why they did that. It removed some of the personality of the building. (Sure, the building wasn't the cookie cutter shape of the last 40 years, or whenever it began, but those windows made the chapel part of the building more unique.)

[Seeker of Truth]

I do a lot of work for the LDS Church and have been told that this mandate to remove plaques and things from the area just outside of chapels and to replace them with big pics of Christ is an attempt to make those areas quieter. it is an attempt to expand the sacred/quiet space out into the hall. The higher ups know that we as members reverence pictures of Christ as if they were the actual being so they are using it against us.

[Niemand]

I do a lot of work for the LDS Church and have been told that this mandate to remove plaques and things from the area just outside of chapels and to replace them with big pics of Christ is an attempt to make those areas quieter. it is an attempt to expand the sacred/quiet space out into the hall. The higher ups know that we as members reverence pictures of Christ as if they were the actual being so they are using it against us.

Not sure how that works. Our "quiet space" in the hall includes a number of coat hangers, fixed to a rack so that people can put their coats etc on them. Every time someone does that, the entire lot of them jangle around for about twenty seconds like a a series of triangles or one of those executive toys you used to see in offices thirty years ago... they're actually pretty noisy!

[heliocentr1c]

I do a lot of work for the LDS Church and have been told that this mandate to remove plaques and things from the area just outside of chapels and to replace them with big pics of Christ is an attempt to make those areas quieter. it is an attempt to expand the sacred/quiet space out into the hall. The higher ups know that we as members reverence pictures of Christ as if they were the actual being so they are using it against us.

Yeah, the higher-ups love a good quiet space. It’s the same reason you’re not allowed to open your scriptures during a sacrament meeting talk to follow the speaker.

The rustling of the scripture leaves disquiets their minds all the way in those ivory towers of downtown SLC.

And props during sacrament meeting talks.... don’t even get me started.... that’s like spitting in an angel’s face as he gazes upon you in perfect serenity.

Jesus’ countenance is as fierce as lighting, His eyes as two flaming fires, and His voice the sound of the rushing of great waters. His glory fills His house as with a rushing, mighty wind.

But yes, they are correct, we must maintain perfect quietude in the halls of these divine, white-washed chapels, while gazing into the abyss of eternity in perfect, undisturbed, self-same contemplation.

And if your white shirt has faint, nearly imperceptible vertical and/or horizontal stripes on it, please, for the love of all that’s holy, save yourself the embarrassment and slip out the back before anyone notices...

And whenever there’s a hosanna shout, make sure it’s plenty reverent bc shouting and reverence aren’t diametrically opposed at all.... and don’t event think about making direct eye contact with the presiding elder. Such things ought not be, brethren.

And thus it is, and thus it shall be, by express decree of the imperial counsel of downtown SLC, with all things always in their order, according to the most holy law of seniority and the perfect predictability and managerial nature of the spirit of a perfectly serene God, amen and amen.

[Cruiserdude]

I do a lot of work for the LDS Church and have been told that this mandate to remove plaques and things from the area just outside of chapels and to replace them with big pics of Christ is an attempt to make those areas quieter. it is an attempt to expand the sacred/quiet space out into the hall. The higher ups know that we as members reverence pictures of Christ as if they were the actual being so they are using it against us.

Yeah, the higher-ups love a good quiet space. It’s the same reason you’re not allowed to open your scriptures during a sacrament meeting talk to follow the speaker.

The rustling of the scripture leaves disquiets their minds all the way in those ivory towers of downtown SLC.

And props during sacrament meeting talks.... don’t even get me started.... that’s like spitting in an angel’s face as he gazes upon you in perfect serenity.

Jesus’ countenance is as fierce as lighting, His eyes as two flaming fires, and His voice the sound of the rushing of great waters. His glory fills His house as with a rushing, mighty wind.

But yes, they are correct, we must maintain perfect quietude in the halls of these divine, white-washed chapels, while gazing into the abyss of eternity in perfect, undisturbed, self-same contemplation.

And if your white shirt has faint, nearly imperceptible vertical and/or horizontal stripes on it, please, for the love of all that’s holy, save yourself the embarrassment and slip out the back before anyone notices...

And whenever there’s a hosanna shout, make sure it’s plenty reverent bc shouting and reverence aren’t diametrically opposed at all.... and don’t event think about making direct eye contact with the presiding elder. Such things ought not be, brethren.

And thus it is, and thus it shall be, by express decree of the imperial counsel of downtown SLC, with all things always in their order, according to the most holy law of seniority and the perfect predictability and managerial nature of the spirit of a perfectly serene God, amen and amen.

Holy moly, you nailed that!

[randyps]

The chapel is for worship not a gather and socialize event, I can understand how the leadership want to keep it from getting out of hand. I remember many times over the years when we had to be reminded to go to class and not stand in the halls talking story.

The problem with mormon wards is that we are almost like family with everyone but most of us will never call each other during the week asking how are you doing, or how was your sons game etc..We wait till church when we see them to ask how the game went or how's the new job.

As far as artwork/painting, there is the element of inaccurate depictions of history as proven with some of our book of mormon artwork.

[Niemand]

The chapel is for worship not a gather and socialize event, I can understand how the leadership want to keep it from getting out of hand. I remember many times over the years when we had to be reminded to go to class and not stand in the halls talking story.

The problem with mormon wards is that we are almost like family with everyone but most of us will never call each other during the week asking how are you doing, or how was your sons game etc..We wait till church when we see them to ask how the game went or how's the new job.

As far as artwork/painting, there is the element of inaccurate depictions of history as proven with some of our book of mormon artwork.

Up to a point. The Book of Mormon is very spartan when it comes to the details of certain things. We know that the Nephites and Lamanites built great earthworks and used cement for building, but we don't know things like the shape of their roofs or gables, or a huge amount of detail about their clothing.

"The chapel is for worship not a gather and socialize event"

We are a community as well and people have to do that. Sometimes we conduct business out in the corridor.

[gkearney]

Clearly the message about not reading scripture in church has not reached my ward. However in my tech savvy ward it is now almost always done on phones.

As to pictures of Christ one might ask when do they cross the line into iconography?

[Niemand]

Clearly the message about not reading scripture in church has not reached my ward. However in my tech savvy ward it is now almost always done on phones.

As to pictures of Christ one might ask when do they cross the line into iconography?

That's a difficult one. I'm from a Protestant background, so I'm not a huge fan of pictures of Christ, or even GAs, plastered all over the place. I don't mind Christ in a context, i.e. helping the beggar, visiting the Nephites or whatever, it's the pictures of Jesus on his own that I'm not so keen on.

I also think the Christus statue has become an LDS idol. It is not a terrible piece of art, it has just become ubiquitous and overemphasised to the point it became our logo

Whenever I see this picture of Jesus, for example, I think it looks like the Disney version of Holman Hunt's Light of the World, which I grew up with.




However there is one LDS picture of Jesus in context I'm not keen on at all, yet I see this one everywhere. For various reasons I find it inappropriate. One person said to me that it looks sexually suggestive, and I've never been able to unsee that, and another pointed out that the disciples are too old (many of them would have been in their twenties).


The curtain looks wrong to me too, but that's a minor nitpick.

[Teancum]

I have some thoughts and experiences on this topic.

I live in a small rural 'community' that was settled for agriculture and the residents today are a majority generational descendants from those settlers. I grew up in this 'community' and saw the community pride on display (I thought it was a good thing at the time). This 'community' excelled at everything they tried to do, from ranching, rodeos, sports, business of whatever kind, taking state championships in high-school sports, etc... I first noticed an inkling of a problem when the local ward grew too big and needed to be split. I saw some of those people resent being put into a 'local community' second ward, saying 'local community' wasn't second at anything. Then the inevitable rivalry began between the two wards with each one looking down with pride on the other. Outsiders were not really included as they didn't have skin in the game, and were generally informed about it. The trophy cases outside the chapels were brim with the awards and achievements of each ward's youth, scouting, missions, members' high ranking genealogy, etc. If one couldn't be the best at one thing then some other category was on display to show how they were the best.

I visited a small ward in a town across the state where I arrived early, picked a seat on the back row and waited for sacrament meeting to start. Families came in and one family sat right in front of me. Their young son kept looking back at me in obvious displeasure, glaring at me, and expecting me to do something because of it. I just figured it was because I was someone new in this very small ward (probably should have been a branch). Finally, after not getting me to do whatever he wanted, he turned to higher power and complained to his mom that I was taking their seat. The mom told him that it was okay, but he clearly wasn't having any of it, still occasionally turning and glaring at me throughout the meeting.

I can see how new members or even members who move into a ward have a difficult enough time feeling included without all the extra expected culture that seems to be included by default.