How to help suicidal folk?

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spiritMan
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Re: How to help suicidal folk?

Post by spiritMan »

A person who has death idealization or thoughts of suicide is a sign that something is deeply wrong in their life. At the root of it, it means they have a lack of faith in God.

I would say a few things to help someone.

1) Do not be afraid to talk to them about what they are going through. Simply express gratitude that they have trusted you with something so deep and express confidence that they can talk to you. Do not be afraid that they are going to do something horrible because of what you say (okay as long as you aren't being a jerk and telling them "well then do it" or something stupid).

2) The last thing people who are dealing with suicide is for someone to tell them "hey you should call the suicide prevention hotline", or "go see a psychologist" or something stupid like a "suicide prevention plan". That is a slap in the face to them. They have told you something deep about their life and instead of being a brother or a sister in Christ to them you just tell them "nah, go talk to some random stranger who has no idea who you are and will tell you a bunch of worthless platitudes".

3) If they are on any psych meds. GET THEM OFF OF IT!!!!! The vast, vast majority of every one of those has a warning of "side effects" and one of the major side effects is "suicidal idealization"!!!.

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Niemand
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Re: How to help suicidal folk?

Post by Niemand »

spiritMan wrote: March 10th, 2022, 7:28 am A person who has death idealization or thoughts of suicide is a sign that something is deeply wrong in their life. At the root of it, it means they have a lack of faith in God.

I would say a few things to help someone.

1) Do not be afraid to talk to them about what they are going through. Simply express gratitude that they have trusted you with something so deep and express confidence that they can talk to you. Do not be afraid that they are going to do something horrible because of what you say (okay as long as you aren't being a jerk and telling them "well then do it" or something stupid).

2) The last thing people who are dealing with suicide is for someone to tell them "hey you should call the suicide prevention hotline", or "go see a psychologist" or something stupid like a "suicide prevention plan". That is a slap in the face to them. They have told you something deep about their life and instead of being a brother or a sister in Christ to them you just tell them "nah, go talk to some random stranger who has no idea who you are and will tell you a bunch of worthless platitudes".

3) If they are on any psych meds. GET THEM OFF OF IT!!!!! The vast, vast majority of every one of those has a warning of "side effects" and one of the major side effects is "suicidal idealization"!!!.
Yes, he is on meds. I'm well aware of these side effects and told him so. I know a third pwrson (mentioned above) who made a very bloody suicide attempt while on them and was given ECT.

I agree with your second point. I have had a number of people tell me to call emergency services, police etc etc. I think if anyone ever did that to me I would never trust them again.(I remember once having a conversation with someone about whether we consist of a single personality or multiple ones/facets - the other person misunderstood, thought I was talking about some schizoid experiences he imagined I'd had, rather than the human mind in general and told me to get help.🤦‍♂️ 😏 NB - was not referring to demon possession either.)

Sometimes it's useful to talk to strangers, sometimes not. Depends on circumstances. There won't be a personal connection. He knows me, I can actual remind him of decent experiences we've had together or of the good things people have said about him to me.

Juliet
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Re: How to help suicidal folk?

Post by Juliet »

Niemand wrote: March 9th, 2022, 4:30 pm
Thinker wrote: March 9th, 2022, 12:14 pm
Niemand wrote: March 7th, 2022, 5:11 am
Robin Hood wrote: March 7th, 2022, 4:47 am There is maybe something in what you say, but I believe many try to blame others for there problems in order to avoid making changes.
I remember when I was young my mother telling me that if she was ever in a position where my father and I were in mortal danger and she could only save one of us, she would save my father. She went on to say that she could always have another child.
As I became a parent I realised how warped this thinking was. For a while I let it bother me. How could she even think this, let alone tell me!
But, I just let it go. Why should I let her strange way of thinking affect me?
But some people stew on things.
I believe at this point in time, I've actually been put in this guy's life to steer him away from such thinking. I haven't hesitated to condemn his father's statement and I have spoken to him about seeking God. His only religion right now is some garbage Transcendental Meditation mantra, which hasn't helped him much. Some people would back off and try not to do that. I don't know his father, so it is no loss to me to call things as they are.

I agree with you there, it is a harsh thing for your mother to say to you, and she shouldn't have. Traditional Scottish parenting is like that - the opposite of the little emperor type parenting now in fashion which is equally awful. A lot of children here had almost any type of praise withheld from them - this is ostensibly to stop them being spoilt, but I believe it results in a lot of the faults we see in our society. Lack of confidence, bitterness, depression, chippiness etc, probably doesn't help in relationships either. This is what he's dealing with. I myself struggle to believe any compliment which is made to me, and they feel strange. I've had to reprogram myself a bit.

I remember at one point my mother asked me which of them was my favourite parent, which I think is a dreadful question. I answered my father, which from her POV was the right answer, but I don't think I should have been asked that question to begin with.

I did get old enough to tell off my mother about one or two things before she died and clear the air. She went on and on for years about some things I'd broken back when I was three or four, right into my teens. One of them was an old clock or something like that. I told her this hurt me, and I was only a small child at the time. It was her job to protect those things from me at that age, since that's the kind of thing small children do. There is no malice intended - it's like when small children reach for boiling pots and end up getting hurt. They don't know what they're doing. Adults should always turn pot handles on a stove away from where children can reach them. I think my mother was a bit taken aback by this, but it gave her pause. Her telling me this hadn't helped me, which was her intention, it had just stressed me out. A stupid little thing on one level, but one which has an effect.

Anyway TLDR: any parents reading this, be careful what you say to small children. It can stick around. It's right to tell them off, wrong to tell them they're useless or pose dilemmas to them. When they do something good or right, compliment them for it.
You seem empathic - a precious gift to others. And maybe your wisdom is from “healed pain.”

Good advice for parents. I think it’s good to praise specific behavior - Eg. “You fed the dog without being told. That shows responsibility & I appreciate that.” To avoid spoiling children - & to simultaneously avoid power struggles - letting kids experience logical consequences (when safe) helps. If they feel loved, & if we empathize with their difficulty in consequences - then they don’t take out their frustrations out on us, but rather ideally learn. Of course easier said than done.

I can relate with your friend whose parents still say mean things. “They know not what they do” often - and to forgive may mean boundaries. It took me many years to discover depression I struggled with was not ALL my fault - but was partly others around me putting me down (“depressing” me).

And re: suicidal signs or calls for help - I think they’re there - but subtle.
Thank you I'm flattered, but I'm actually pretty bad with people and could probably start a fight in an empty room. However, it upsets me when I see good people in a bad place. I should probably think the same about bad people in a bad place but I do pray for them.

For me, my discovery was anxiety. I had known anxiety all my life, but I had known it as "worry" and never connected it with anxiety as such. "Worry" was a misleading term, because I think it led me to believe that the anxiety had a focus, i.e. I was worried about something and that wasn't always the case. I found alcohol, even in small amounts was giving me anxiety and depression and I have told my friend that he needs to stay away from it.

Someone talking about childhood memories used a word I liked - "magnetised". Why are certain memories "magnetised", i.e. they stick to us and we remember them whereas others are not? In childhood a lot of things are "magnetised" and that is why they are dangerous. Nowadays, I can face a torrent of abuse, and sometimes I can just walk away (not always though!!!) Childraising is a bit of a mystery to me - i.e. how you can discipline your kids without screwing them up, because sometimes they will do things wrong. It's the balance between teaching them not to want to do something bad and teaching them to hate themselves. I guess the balance is love - your children must know what you do is out of good intentions.

My parents made some bad choices. I believe they loved me, but they did some things I don't think I could do if I ever have any of my own. Long story.
Memories with strong emotion are stored in a the amygdala unless I remember wrong. It is the emotion center of the brain and less tied to reason.

I know for me the Holy Spirit has lead me be merciful to my children most of the time. The exception would be if they start to become incentivised to do wrong... If they develop an attitude that says, hey, this bad behavior is actually improving my success... in which case I have to stop the incentive from flowing the wrong way. If a child starts to enjoy the power thrill of abusing a sibling, then it's time as a parent to make the statement that such power will be gobbled up by me, who is the bigger fish and has an investment in that sibling of theirs. And of course, the younger siblings are capable of learning how to scheme too and need just as much discernment as to what is motivating their behavior - good or evil motives- as an older child. The evil motive cannot be incentivisted. It will be experimented by a child, and those are the times discipline is needed. It's not often, but it does happen occasionally, and those times the Spirit has helped me recognize the difference. But most of the time, children are deserving of it easier than what a parent's (at least by my experience) somewhat prideful ambition would desire.

JessieJim
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Re: How to help suicidal folk?

Post by JessieJim »

First of all, you should understand the reason of his suicidal thoughts. Reduse his/her stress,
1. A method of relieving stress is eating foods that improve mood. As you know, an indispensable assistant in the fight against stress is the hormone of happiness - serotonin.
2. Do sports. Playing sports helps to fight stressful situations, and they also make the body more resistant to emotional influences. This is a great way out for many - to do physical exercises. e.g riding a bike, buy smth simple https://www.bikethesites.com/best-beginner-road-bikes/ and ride it every day
3. The main source of stress is overexertion, so rest helps to deal with it.

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: How to help suicidal folk?

Post by BeNotDeceived »

JessieJim wrote: November 30th, 2022, 7:37 pm First of all, you should understand the reason of his suicidal thoughts. Reduse his/her stress,
1. A method of relieving stress is eating foods that improve mood. As you know, an indispensable assistant in the fight against stress is the hormone of happiness - serotonin.
2. Do sports. Playing sports helps to fight stressful situations, and they also make the body more resistant to emotional influences. This is a great way out for many - to do physical exercises. e.g riding a bike, buy smth simple https://www.bikethesites.com/best-beginner-road-bikes/ and ride it every day
3. The main source of stress is overexertion, so rest helps to deal with it.
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Momma J
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Re: How to help suicidal folk?

Post by Momma J »

I have found, in my limited experience, that many suicidal people are screaming for help. (not literally, but they reach out to friends or family)

The variables are endless as to why they want the mental anguish to end, and to what extremes they will go to end the torment. Some people do not feel that they have anyone they can talk with. The fact that he reached out to you is monumental.

I was suicidal many years ago. I did not feel that I had anyone in my life at the time that would understand. My family is great, but I felt like I could not let them down with my "issues."

I will not go into the whys as it is still a painful memory. Sept 3rd 1995 (yes, I remember the date). I took a BUNCH of pain pills, washing it down with whiskey. I sat on the bathroom floor sobbing between pills and gulps of alcohol.

"But for the Grace of God go I." As it turns out, I have never been a drinker and threw it all up. I slept for a day. I have since learned to trust in the Lord.... but it was baby steps.

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Niemand
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Re: How to help suicidal folk?

Post by Niemand »

Many thanks for all the comments and feedback above (even the stuff I didn't agree with!!!). This is an all too common situation.

The good news is that I have helped this individual get back on track. Some stupid stuff his father said to him as a child has not helped in my view, but I've put him in touch with a better crowd of people, hooked him up with some rock musicians (he's a bass player) and so on. He plays basketball so good on that front as well. He has also got himself a much less toxic job than his last one, so he's far happier in that regard. He does have one guy who stays in the same accommodation trying to bilk him just now, but me and some other people all agreed he should tell that man where to stick it and he'll be out of that situation early next year and have his own place.

I think a lot of our trouble is environmental. We live in a very evil world just now. I'm glad I was in a good place before this lockdown came along. It was tough enough before, but I can see how it would tip anyone off the edge.

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Momma J
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Re: How to help suicidal folk?

Post by Momma J »

I agree with the environmental aspect. Then you throw in isolation.

Thank you for the update. The individual that you helped is truly blessed by your kindness

NowWhat
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Re: How to help suicidal folk?

Post by NowWhat »

One family member, a teen, was on antidepressants, which weren't working. They changed his RX and he immediately tried an overdose. No repeat since he was pulled off of that one. Another family member, who was on Prozac, tried half a dozen times over his lifetime, usually with pills. Then he tried a gun. It worked. And now Canada is offering governmental assistance with suicide, even for teens, even without parental notification. What a nightmare. I'm not a fan of psychotropic meds.

tribrac
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Re: How to help suicidal folk?

Post by tribrac »

As the kids say these days ....I used to be judgey. Now I am sympathetic. There are so many ways people can get messed up...and their path usually starts by being abused or neglected by someone who was already messed up.

I've not dealt with many suicidal folks, but know a few with depression. The little I did was a frightening experience. I struggled to understand how a human could get so low, crushed by their own mind. Very troubling, and very sad.

A friend gets deep depressed. I have told him... You're not broken, this world is broken. You are a glorious powerful spirit who values goodness, mercy and judgement....and you came down into this fallen world and all around you is wickedness and corruption and decay....of course you are sad. That doesn't mean something is wrong with you, it shows all the things right and noble about you. Your challenge is not to fix yourself to fit into this world, your challenge is to remember you are good, and all this is temporary, and Christ will fix what is fixable, get rid of the bad, and show us a better way to live.

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oneClimbs
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Re: How to help suicidal folk?

Post by oneClimbs »

There isn't a darker place than when you feel that exiting life is the most desirable and reasonable option.

Anyone can be vulnerable to it. You never know what is going to break you down to where that becomes not just an option but what you want the most and seems necessary.

People can be extremely good at hiding it, so if anyone even suggests that this is a struggle for them, it is a cry for help and they need help that moment.

The one thing I can say is that suicide should never be an option, no matter how bad it is, no matter how dark it seems, God is still with you and you are still here. Always remember that you are still here and you are loved, and you can persevere and not just leave the darkness but find light in your future that seems impossible at the moment.

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Thinker
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Re: How to help suicidal folk?

Post by Thinker »

Momma J wrote: December 1st, 2022, 5:40 am I have found, in my limited experience, that many suicidal people are screaming for help. (not literally, but they reach out to friends or family)

The variables are endless as to why they want the mental anguish to end, and to what extremes they will go to end the torment. Some people do not feel that they have anyone they can talk with. The fact that he reached out to you is monumental.

I was suicidal many years ago. I did not feel that I had anyone in my life at the time that would understand. My family is great, but I felt like I could not let them down with my "issues."

I will not go into the whys as it is still a painful memory. Sept 3rd 1995 (yes, I remember the date). I took a BUNCH of pain pills, washing it down with whiskey. I sat on the bathroom floor sobbing between pills and gulps of alcohol.

"But for the Grace of God go I." As it turns out, I have never been a drinker and threw it all up. I slept for a day. I have since learned to trust in the Lord.... but it was baby steps.
To get to such a place mentally, reflects immense pain. Yet, I think those who have sunk so low, are able to empathize more with others & are more willing to trust in God above anyone else.

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Craig Johnson
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Re: How to help suicidal folk?

Post by Craig Johnson »

If someone tells you they are suicidal, please don't think that they want attention.
It could be that, but it could also be that they were brave enough to lose their guns and everything in order to save those who love them from the horror of a suicide. Former military or not.
I am retired Navy and I served for 3 years as a decedent affairs representative/manager during my 20 year military career.
It takes courage to be up front about it. When a person successfully kills themselves and no one saw it coming - it was because they could not face dealing with it and just wanted to relieve themselves of the burden and misery of life. No one is to blame for not seeing this coming.
And to my fellow military who are contemplating suicide, talk to someone you trust who won't get your guns taken from you, right away and keep using that person to help you. If they ask you to let them keep your guns for awhile do it. My brother and sister we love you.

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FoxMammaWisdom
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Re: How to help suicidal folk?

Post by FoxMammaWisdom »

spiritMan wrote: March 10th, 2022, 7:28 am A person who has death idealization or thoughts of suicide is a sign that something is deeply wrong in their life. At the root of it, it means they have a lack of faith in God.

I would say a few things to help someone.

1) Do not be afraid to talk to them about what they are going through. Simply express gratitude that they have trusted you with something so deep and express confidence that they can talk to you. Do not be afraid that they are going to do something horrible because of what you say (okay as long as you aren't being a jerk and telling them "well then do it" or something stupid).

2) The last thing people who are dealing with suicide is for someone to tell them "hey you should call the suicide prevention hotline", or "go see a psychologist" or something stupid like a "suicide prevention plan". That is a slap in the face to them. They have told you something deep about their life and instead of being a brother or a sister in Christ to them you just tell them "nah, go talk to some random stranger who has no idea who you are and will tell you a bunch of worthless platitudes".

3) If they are on any psych meds. GET THEM OFF OF IT!!!!! The vast, vast majority of every one of those has a warning of "side effects" and one of the major side effects is "suicidal idealization"!!!.
Love everything you said here except for the part I highlighted. That is a judgment you couldn't possibly know for each individual going thru it very differently. Root cause is very different for everyone, and oftentimes the "cause" is something completely outside of their control and forces thoughts that violate their own beliefs - like the side effects you mentioned in #3. A person's faith in God has nothing to do with what those drugs do to people - some of that stuff would drive Jesus himself to suicide. Injuries like PTSD or other injuries or health problems that rewire the neural pathways in your brain to act against your choice, can cause suicidal tendencies no matter what a person has faith in. We could throw out a million different ways people are pushed to suicide, that have nothing to do with lacking faith in God. Speaking with some firsthand experience. :)

I SOOOOO appreciate #2 on your list.

spiritMan
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Re: How to help suicidal folk?

Post by spiritMan »

FoxMammaWisdom wrote: December 16th, 2022, 4:56 am
spiritMan wrote: March 10th, 2022, 7:28 am A person who has death idealization or thoughts of suicide is a sign that something is deeply wrong in their life. At the root of it, it means they have a lack of faith in God.

I would say a few things to help someone.

1) Do not be afraid to talk to them about what they are going through. Simply express gratitude that they have trusted you with something so deep and express confidence that they can talk to you. Do not be afraid that they are going to do something horrible because of what you say (okay as long as you aren't being a jerk and telling them "well then do it" or something stupid).

2) The last thing people who are dealing with suicide is for someone to tell them "hey you should call the suicide prevention hotline", or "go see a psychologist" or something stupid like a "suicide prevention plan". That is a slap in the face to them. They have told you something deep about their life and instead of being a brother or a sister in Christ to them you just tell them "nah, go talk to some random stranger who has no idea who you are and will tell you a bunch of worthless platitudes".

3) If they are on any psych meds. GET THEM OFF OF IT!!!!! The vast, vast majority of every one of those has a warning of "side effects" and one of the major side effects is "suicidal idealization"!!!.
Love everything you said here except for the part I highlighted. That is a judgment you couldn't possibly know for each individual going thru it very differently. Root cause is very different for everyone, and oftentimes the "cause" is something completely outside of their control and forces thoughts that violate their own beliefs - like the side effects you mentioned in #3. A person's faith in God has nothing to do with what those drugs do to people - some of that stuff would drive Jesus himself to suicide. Injuries like PTSD or other injuries or health problems that rewire the neural pathways in your brain to act against your choice, can cause suicidal tendencies no matter what a person has faith in. We could throw out a million different ways people are pushed to suicide, that have nothing to do with lacking faith in God. Speaking with some firsthand experience. :)

I SOOOOO appreciate #2 on your list.
Negative, I know what I'm taking about.

Saying someone has a lack of faith in God is a sacred cow. People need to get over it.

I'm not saying when you talk to someone who is in the midst of it that you tell them that directly as it won't work because their pride will prevent them from being able to admit it.

spiritMan
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Re: How to help suicidal folk?

Post by spiritMan »

FoxMammaWisdom wrote: December 16th, 2022, 4:56 am
spiritMan wrote: March 10th, 2022, 7:28 am A person who has death idealization or thoughts of suicide is a sign that something is deeply wrong in their life. At the root of it, it means they have a lack of faith in God.

I would say a few things to help someone.

1) Do not be afraid to talk to them about what they are going through. Simply express gratitude that they have trusted you with something so deep and express confidence that they can talk to you. Do not be afraid that they are going to do something horrible because of what you say (okay as long as you aren't being a jerk and telling them "well then do it" or something stupid).

2) The last thing people who are dealing with suicide is for someone to tell them "hey you should call the suicide prevention hotline", or "go see a psychologist" or something stupid like a "suicide prevention plan". That is a slap in the face to them. They have told you something deep about their life and instead of being a brother or a sister in Christ to them you just tell them "nah, go talk to some random stranger who has no idea who you are and will tell you a bunch of worthless platitudes".

3) If they are on any psych meds. GET THEM OFF OF IT!!!!! The vast, vast majority of every one of those has a warning of "side effects" and one of the major side effects is "suicidal idealization"!!!.
Love everything you said here except for the part I highlighted. That is a judgment you couldn't possibly know for each individual going thru it very differently. Root cause is very different for everyone, and oftentimes the "cause" is something completely outside of their control and forces thoughts that violate their own beliefs - like the side effects you mentioned in #3. A person's faith in God has nothing to do with what those drugs do to people - some of that stuff would drive Jesus himself to suicide. Injuries like PTSD or other injuries or health problems that rewire the neural pathways in your brain to act against your choice, can cause suicidal tendencies no matter what a person has faith in. We could throw out a million different ways people are pushed to suicide, that have nothing to do with lacking faith in God. Speaking with some firsthand experience. :)

I SOOOOO appreciate #2 on your list.
If you have firsthand experience then you need to dig deeper.

Look our entire lives are in the hands of God. He knows us and provides for us experiences regardless of what we have done to look to him.

Someone who commits or wants to commit suicide has come to the point where they completely reject God. They completely reject him bc they reject this life which He has given and provided them. They reject the experiences he has given.

It is fundamentally a lack of faith in God.

spiritMan
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Re: How to help suicidal folk?

Post by spiritMan »

FoxMammaWisdom wrote: December 16th, 2022, 4:56 am
spiritMan wrote: March 10th, 2022, 7:28 am A person who has death idealization or thoughts of suicide is a sign that something is deeply wrong in their life. At the root of it, it means they have a lack of faith in God.

I would say a few things to help someone.

1) Do not be afraid to talk to them about what they are going through. Simply express gratitude that they have trusted you with something so deep and express confidence that they can talk to you. Do not be afraid that they are going to do something horrible because of what you say (okay as long as you aren't being a jerk and telling them "well then do it" or something stupid).

2) The last thing people who are dealing with suicide is for someone to tell them "hey you should call the suicide prevention hotline", or "go see a psychologist" or something stupid like a "suicide prevention plan". That is a slap in the face to them. They have told you something deep about their life and instead of being a brother or a sister in Christ to them you just tell them "nah, go talk to some random stranger who has no idea who you are and will tell you a bunch of worthless platitudes".

3) If they are on any psych meds. GET THEM OFF OF IT!!!!! The vast, vast majority of every one of those has a warning of "side effects" and one of the major side effects is "suicidal idealization"!!!.
Love everything you said here except for the part I highlighted. That is a judgment you couldn't possibly know for each individual going thru it very differently. Root cause is very different for everyone, and oftentimes the "cause" is something completely outside of their control and forces thoughts that violate their own beliefs - like the side effects you mentioned in #3. A person's faith in God has nothing to do with what those drugs do to people - some of that stuff would drive Jesus himself to suicide. Injuries like PTSD or other injuries or health problems that rewire the neural pathways in your brain to act against your choice, can cause suicidal tendencies no matter what a person has faith in. We could throw out a million different ways people are pushed to suicide, that have nothing to do with lacking faith in God. Speaking with some firsthand experience. :)

I SOOOOO appreciate #2 on your list.
The question is why is saying it is a lack of faith in God is such a sacred cow.

It is the reason why Adam and Eve did what they did, it is why cain did what he did.

Literally the first sins are rooted in lack of faith in God, but somehow we know better....

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FoxMammaWisdom
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Re: How to help suicidal folk?

Post by FoxMammaWisdom »

spiritMan wrote: December 16th, 2022, 5:04 am
FoxMammaWisdom wrote: December 16th, 2022, 4:56 am
spiritMan wrote: March 10th, 2022, 7:28 am A person who has death idealization or thoughts of suicide is a sign that something is deeply wrong in their life. At the root of it, it means they have a lack of faith in God.

I would say a few things to help someone.

1) Do not be afraid to talk to them about what they are going through. Simply express gratitude that they have trusted you with something so deep and express confidence that they can talk to you. Do not be afraid that they are going to do something horrible because of what you say (okay as long as you aren't being a jerk and telling them "well then do it" or something stupid).

2) The last thing people who are dealing with suicide is for someone to tell them "hey you should call the suicide prevention hotline", or "go see a psychologist" or something stupid like a "suicide prevention plan". That is a slap in the face to them. They have told you something deep about their life and instead of being a brother or a sister in Christ to them you just tell them "nah, go talk to some random stranger who has no idea who you are and will tell you a bunch of worthless platitudes".

3) If they are on any psych meds. GET THEM OFF OF IT!!!!! The vast, vast majority of every one of those has a warning of "side effects" and one of the major side effects is "suicidal idealization"!!!.
Love everything you said here except for the part I highlighted. That is a judgment you couldn't possibly know for each individual going thru it very differently. Root cause is very different for everyone, and oftentimes the "cause" is something completely outside of their control and forces thoughts that violate their own beliefs - like the side effects you mentioned in #3. A person's faith in God has nothing to do with what those drugs do to people - some of that stuff would drive Jesus himself to suicide. Injuries like PTSD or other injuries or health problems that rewire the neural pathways in your brain to act against your choice, can cause suicidal tendencies no matter what a person has faith in. We could throw out a million different ways people are pushed to suicide, that have nothing to do with lacking faith in God. Speaking with some firsthand experience. :)

I SOOOOO appreciate #2 on your list.
If you have firsthand experience then you need to dig deeper.

Look our entire lives are in the hands of God. He knows us and provides for us experiences regardless of what we have done to look to him.

Someone who commits or wants to commit suicide has come to the point where they completely reject God. They completely reject him bc they reject this life which He has given and provided them. They reject the experiences he has given.

It is fundamentally a lack of faith in God.
I hope you don't ever have to be personally challenged in a way that removes your ability to logic thru those thoughts, and forces you to act against them. But please don't judge others who have or do struggle that way against their wishes, beliefs, and faith foundation. That kind of struggle OFTEN has NOTHING TO DO with lacking faith in God.

Kind of like how bleeding from a wound has nothing to do with a person's lack of faith in God. The bleeding part is against a person's will and has nothing to do with their faith in God.

It is your personal judgment - not a fact, that someone struggling with suicide lacks faith in God.

I really hope you don't ever try to tell a person struggling with suicide, that their problem is lacking faith in God. That might be the push over the edge for someone who needs a different kind of help than being told they are having faith the wrong way.

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Re: How to help suicidal folk?

Post by FoxMammaWisdom »

spiritMan wrote: December 16th, 2022, 5:04 am
If you have firsthand experience then you need to dig deeper.
What a kind thing for you to tell someone who has been there.

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Re: How to help suicidal folk?

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Niemand wrote: December 1st, 2022, 6:04 am Many thanks for all the comments and feedback above (even the stuff I didn't agree with!!!). This is an all too common situation.

The good news is that I have helped this individual get back on track. Some stupid stuff his father said to him as a child has not helped in my view, but I've put him in touch with a better crowd of people, hooked him up with some rock musicians (he's a bass player) and so on. He plays basketball so good on that front as well. He has also got himself a much less toxic job than his last one, so he's far happier in that regard. He does have one guy who stays in the same accommodation trying to bilk him just now, but me and some other people all agreed he should tell that man where to stick it and he'll be out of that situation early next year and have his own place.

I think a lot of our trouble is environmental. We live in a very evil world just now. I'm glad I was in a good place before this lockdown came along. It was tough enough before, but I can see how it would tip anyone off the edge.
I'm glad you are willing to help your friend the way they need help. Everyone is individual and it takes someone who actually gives a shyte to invest themself in building someone back up, and being your brother's keeper. I pray everyone in need finds someone willing like you Niemand.

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Re: How to help suicidal folk?

Post by spiritMan »

FoxMammaWisdom wrote: December 16th, 2022, 5:21 am
spiritMan wrote: December 16th, 2022, 5:04 am
If you have firsthand experience then you need to dig deeper.
What a kind thing for you to tell someone who has been there.
Clearly you still haven't resolved it if what I am saying gets you so riled up.

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Re: How to help suicidal folk?

Post by spiritMan »

FoxMammaWisdom wrote: December 16th, 2022, 5:21 am
spiritMan wrote: December 16th, 2022, 5:04 am
If you have firsthand experience then you need to dig deeper.
What a kind thing for you to tell someone who has been there.
Because it's true.

If you were "in the moment" I wouldn't be saying this to you. But you are past the moment-so you should be able to handle a little more truth.

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Re: How to help suicidal folk?

Post by spiritMan »

FoxMammaWisdom wrote: December 16th, 2022, 5:19 am
spiritMan wrote: December 16th, 2022, 5:04 am
FoxMammaWisdom wrote: December 16th, 2022, 4:56 am
spiritMan wrote: March 10th, 2022, 7:28 am A person who has death idealization or thoughts of suicide is a sign that something is deeply wrong in their life. At the root of it, it means they have a lack of faith in God.

I would say a few things to help someone.

1) Do not be afraid to talk to them about what they are going through. Simply express gratitude that they have trusted you with something so deep and express confidence that they can talk to you. Do not be afraid that they are going to do something horrible because of what you say (okay as long as you aren't being a jerk and telling them "well then do it" or something stupid).

2) The last thing people who are dealing with suicide is for someone to tell them "hey you should call the suicide prevention hotline", or "go see a psychologist" or something stupid like a "suicide prevention plan". That is a slap in the face to them. They have told you something deep about their life and instead of being a brother or a sister in Christ to them you just tell them "nah, go talk to some random stranger who has no idea who you are and will tell you a bunch of worthless platitudes".

3) If they are on any psych meds. GET THEM OFF OF IT!!!!! The vast, vast majority of every one of those has a warning of "side effects" and one of the major side effects is "suicidal idealization"!!!.
Love everything you said here except for the part I highlighted. That is a judgment you couldn't possibly know for each individual going thru it very differently. Root cause is very different for everyone, and oftentimes the "cause" is something completely outside of their control and forces thoughts that violate their own beliefs - like the side effects you mentioned in #3. A person's faith in God has nothing to do with what those drugs do to people - some of that stuff would drive Jesus himself to suicide. Injuries like PTSD or other injuries or health problems that rewire the neural pathways in your brain to act against your choice, can cause suicidal tendencies no matter what a person has faith in. We could throw out a million different ways people are pushed to suicide, that have nothing to do with lacking faith in God. Speaking with some firsthand experience. :)

I SOOOOO appreciate #2 on your list.
If you have firsthand experience then you need to dig deeper.

Look our entire lives are in the hands of God. He knows us and provides for us experiences regardless of what we have done to look to him.

Someone who commits or wants to commit suicide has come to the point where they completely reject God. They completely reject him bc they reject this life which He has given and provided them. They reject the experiences he has given.

It is fundamentally a lack of faith in God.
I hope you don't ever have to be personally challenged in a way that removes your ability to logic thru those thoughts, and forces you to act against them. But please don't judge others who have or do struggle that way against their wishes, beliefs, and faith foundation. That kind of struggle OFTEN has NOTHING TO DO with lacking faith in God.

Kind of like how bleeding from a wound has nothing to do with a person's lack of faith in God. The bleeding part is against a person's will and has nothing to do with their faith in God.

It is your personal judgment - not a fact, that someone struggling with suicide lacks faith in God.

I really hope you don't ever try to tell a person struggling with suicide, that their problem is lacking faith in God. That might be the push over the edge for someone who needs a different kind of help than being told they are having faith the wrong way.
When is the appropriate time for the druggie to stop using drugs?

Yes, when they are "on drugs" they are " personally challenged in a way that removes your ability to logic thru those thoughts, and forces you to act against them."

That is what drugs do. When someone gets to such a point where they have exhausted all their faith in God and have not learned to rely upon Him in every moment of their lives . . .then yes WHEN that moment arrives they will be "personally challenged in a way that removes your ability to logic thru those thoughts, and forces you to act against them."

That outcome was a looong, loooong process.

The time to fortify oneself with faith in God comes way, way prior to "the moment" when you are "personally challenged in a way that removes your ability to logic thru those thoughts, and forces you to act against them."

The root cause of it is that at some point in the road way, way before that "moment" happened the individual started down a path where they discarded God and the ultimate outcome of discarding God and having a lack of faith in Him culminated in that "moment".

You don't stop using drugs "in the moment" when you have no ability to reason through things. You stop using drugs when you make the decision outside the moment to do so.

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Re: How to help suicidal folk?

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spiritMan wrote: December 16th, 2022, 6:15 am…The root cause of it is that at some point in the road way, way before that "moment" happened the individual started down a path where they discarded God…
I can see what you mean that many times giving up on life is the opposite of faith. Yet, I think there are circumstances of immense pain that a person has so much faith but the pain simply is overwhelming. Think of animals who are in pain and euthanized. Many people who have died of cancer actually died from starvation/dehydration from pain meds that cause them to stop drinking & eating - basically assisted suicide because of the pain. Some of such people had great faith - so it wasn’t a lack of faith. Though metaphysically (mind-body), it could be argued that possibly their faith was misdirected.

Can emotional pain be as real as physical pain?

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Re: How to help suicidal folk?

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