LDS Freedom Forum

madvin wrote: ↑March 6th, 2022, 11:31 pm

Mamabear wrote: ↑March 6th, 2022, 7:03 pm

tribrac wrote: ↑March 5th, 2022, 1:02 pm Its something i dont like or understand about mormon culture....a constant clamouring to get into the secrect circles.

Hold it over a neighbors head if you make it into a secret circle but they dont. Hold yourself up above others. Leaders telling the secret circles they are more special.

Then we wonder why Mormons don't have alot of love for each other, and barely any for nonmembers. Or why we talk polietly or take cookies but never help people in meaningful ways.

So true. This reminds me of the “second anointing” that takes place for special couples in temples. Another secret society for the elite leaders who think they are above the rest of the people. This counterfeit “ordinance” is a mockery of the sealing of the Spirit of promise between God and man.

Pardon my ignorance. What is the second anointing?

It is a temple ritual that isn’t discussed. It’s reserved for those men in higher leadership positions and their wives. Basically, it’s sort of like an extension of the initiatory. The couple is anointed as a king and queen, unconditionally. Whereas in the regular temple ordinances people are only anointed to become such on certain conditions.

So even if they sin, they get a free pass.
The ordinance is a counterfeit to a persons actual calling & election and second comforter, when he/she is sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise.

Elder Holland alludes to this secret thing in this short video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cLiZySTMedM

JK4Woods wrote: ↑March 6th, 2022, 4:03 pm More info from yesterday ...

E. Holland needed a cane to walk, and his security guards helped him out of his chair up to the podium, and guided him back to his chair after.

Turns out my Stake President (a doctor) was selected as E. Holland’s physician during the visit.

Evidently, in the last couple weeks leading up to yesterday, my doctor SP had to fill out a questionnaire , undergo a thorough back ground check, and a couple more hoops to be named as E. Holland’s emergency personal physician while here for yesterday’s meeting.

So, I wonder if he's suffering side effects from his covid shot(s)?

Silver Pie wrote: ↑March 7th, 2022, 2:39 pm

JK4Woods wrote: ↑March 6th, 2022, 4:03 pm More info from yesterday ...

E. Holland needed a cane to walk, and his security guards helped him out of his chair up to the podium, and guided him back to his chair after.

Turns out my Stake President (a doctor) was selected as E. Holland’s physician during the visit.

Evidently, in the last couple weeks leading up to yesterday, my doctor SP had to fill out a questionnaire , undergo a thorough back ground check, and a couple more hoops to be named as E. Holland’s emergency personal physician while here for yesterday’s meeting.

So, I wonder if he's suffering side effects from his covid shot(s)?

Well... he is 86....

Silver Pie wrote: ↑March 7th, 2022, 2:39 pm

JK4Woods wrote: ↑March 6th, 2022, 4:03 pm More info from yesterday ...

E. Holland needed a cane to walk, and his security guards helped him out of his chair up to the podium, and guided him back to his chair after.

Turns out my Stake President (a doctor) was selected as E. Holland’s physician during the visit.

Evidently, in the last couple weeks leading up to yesterday, my doctor SP had to fill out a questionnaire , undergo a thorough back ground check, and a couple more hoops to be named as E. Holland’s emergency personal physician while here for yesterday’s meeting.

So, I wonder if he's suffering side effects from his covid shot(s)?

In the PR photos of the church leadership, Elder Holland was sitting on/in a walker. If he’s using only a cane he would seem to be stronger than a year ago.

Meetings like this happen frequently. It’s how local leaders get “paid”. Exclusive meetings which denote prestige, honor, and a sense of specialness.

Mamabear wrote: ↑March 7th, 2022, 6:27 am

madvin wrote: ↑March 6th, 2022, 11:31 pm

Mamabear wrote: ↑March 6th, 2022, 7:03 pm

tribrac wrote: ↑March 5th, 2022, 1:02 pm Its something i dont like or understand about mormon culture....a constant clamouring to get into the secrect circles.

Hold it over a neighbors head if you make it into a secret circle but they dont. Hold yourself up above others. Leaders telling the secret circles they are more special.

Then we wonder why Mormons don't have alot of love for each other, and barely any for nonmembers. Or why we talk polietly or take cookies but never help people in meaningful ways.

So true. This reminds me of the “second anointing” that takes place for special couples in temples. Another secret society for the elite leaders who think they are above the rest of the people. This counterfeit “ordinance” is a mockery of the sealing of the Spirit of promise between God and man.

Pardon my ignorance. What is the second anointing?

It is a temple ritual that isn’t discussed. It’s reserved for those men in higher leadership positions and their wives. Basically, it’s sort of like an extension of the initiatory. The couple is anointed as a king and queen, unconditionally. Whereas in the regular temple ordinances people are only anointed to become such on certain conditions.

So even if they sin, they get a free pass.
The ordinance is a counterfeit to a persons actual calling & election and second comforter, when he/she is sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise.

Elder Holland alludes to this secret thing in this short video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cLiZySTMedM

What in the world? I can't believe this video even exists!

Mamabear wrote: ↑March 6th, 2022, 7:03 pm

tribrac wrote: ↑March 5th, 2022, 1:02 pm Its something i dont like or understand about mormon culture....a constant clamouring to get into the secrect circles.

Hold it over a neighbors head if you make it into a secret circle but they dont. Hold yourself up above others. Leaders telling the secret circles they are more special.

Then we wonder why Mormons don't have alot of love for each other, and barely any for nonmembers. Or why we talk polietly or take cookies but never help people in meaningful ways.

So true. This reminds me of the “second anointing” that takes place for special couples in temples. Another secret society for the elite leaders who think they are above the rest of the people. This counterfeit “ordinance” is a mockery of the sealing of the Spirit of promise between God and man.

Raise your hand if you think that the leaders' idea of "calling and election made sure" might pose a moral hazard.

about ten years ago the Q15 decided that they would start going to areas where the saints, not the inactives, the saints were doing things that were not doctrine . . . . they were required to devote time from their busy schedule to visit these stakes and cities . . .most of this was driven by the numerous emails from members of the church, directly to general authorities, since the bishops and stake presidents always report "all is well" . . . I'm ready for my next higher assignment attitude . . . .

one of the first visits was to Boise Idaho. . . by the tim the vist weas made some 250 adult saints had been rebaptized . . .by a priesthold member . . .same form of baptism as the church uses . . .alll saints. . . no inactives . . .

another visit was to rock springs, wyo . . . to find out where the money went to build a new chapel . . . . and subdivision of town houses around the chapel . . . this time, the city of rocks springs called church headquarters to warn them of fines and a cancellation of their permit to build . . .

shall I go on????

even if the meeting seems fluffy, then you better believe someone, or many ones, has been a whistleblower . . .

Godislove wrote: ↑March 5th, 2022, 8:04 am

Maroriginal1 wrote: ↑March 5th, 2022, 6:49 am I went to one of these trainings a few years ago. In fact, I think we were the very first area priesthood training that women leaders were included.

Honestly, it was a very memorable, spiritually uplifting experience because so much of it was unscripted. It was over 4 hours and about half ended up being QA time with an Apostle. I don’t think we get enough of that in the church; witnessing an apostle speak freely as the spirit directs.

We were told multiple times that we cannot save people on borrowed light. Mathew 25 was emphasized repeatedly. The training was to get prepared to witness many without sufficient oil and those with oil unwilling to leave loved ones behind.

What do you think was meant by leaving loved ones behind? .....spiritually, physically.....maybe both?

I think it means that they were turning down callings

JK4Woods wrote: ↑March 5th, 2022, 8:13 am

Maroriginal1 wrote: ↑March 5th, 2022, 6:49 am I went to one of these trainings a few years ago. In fact, I think we were the very first area priesthood training that women leaders were included.

Honestly, it was a very memorable, spiritually uplifting experience because so much of it was unscripted. It was over 4 hours and about half ended up being QA time with an Apostle. I don’t think we get enough of that in the church; witnessing an apostle speak freely as the spirit directs.

We were told multiple times that we cannot save people on borrowed light. Mathew 25 was emphasized repeatedly. The training was to get prepared to witness many without sufficient oil and those with oil unwilling to leave loved ones behind.

It may very well be as you described. (I hope so).
However, why is that kind of meeting reserved for the elite?

Joseph Smith would have “meadow meetings” for all who could come. Hours at a time.

Yet here we are... not getting the best that could be offered....

I hope the leadership invited do get a spiritual experience. I hope they see personal reason to repent of what is holding themselves back.

I hope they are so uplifted, they come back and feed us sheep.

because the leaders are held accountable. . . especially by God they are held accountable . . .

for years, I have heard gen conf talks that always conclude that the bishop or stake president was never, never, never at fault . . . wrong . . many of them are at fault and have heavy judgments for the poor decisions that caused someone to leave the church or caused grief instead of relief that a bishop is suppose to provide. . .

however, I think that there are also cases where a bishop has done what the Lord told them to and the individual feels that they were counseled harshly . . . anyway the fault can go both ways and the gen conf talks only supports the member at fault . . . .

even though this was not in a calling, I have counseled people or done things according to the HG only to lose friends and be hated. . . . then, years later I find that it really was the HG prompting me . . if we honestly follow the promptings of the HG, whether we are the leader or the follower then we will have peace among all of the chaos

Rubicon wrote: ↑March 5th, 2022, 11:47 am These meetings are routine, and have been happening for over ten years. They are now expanded to include EQP and RSP, but counselors have never been invited. I've been to two: Oaks and Rasband, and Anderson and Schweizer. There is no special need being addressed; it's an opportunity for local leaders to be taught by them and ask questions.

In other words: one of these meetings taking place in a given metro area doesn't denote the Brethren "scrambling the fighters" and doing damage control. They happen all the time, and have for quite some time

they are doing damage control and have stated as such . . . the meeting helps your stake pres or bishop see what your opinions really are and allows all of them to monitor you and the situation by your questions and responses to their answers int those meetings

NeveR wrote: ↑March 5th, 2022, 11:47 am

Maroriginal1 wrote: ↑March 5th, 2022, 6:49 am We were told multiple times that we cannot save people on borrowed light. Mathew 25 was emphasized repeatedly. The training was to get prepared to witness many without sufficient oil and those with oil unwilling to leave loved ones behind.

Could someone translate this for me please.

What does "without sufficient oil" mean?

And "those with oil unwilling to leave loved ones behind"?

I really would appreciate having it explained because from this perspective it sounds like a creepy euphemism for something that might be very nasty.

I'm hoping it isn't!

Edit - I DID read the explanation above but it doesn't really answer. How are the distinctions made and why does the allusiveness sound so creepy?

they were turning down callings and making the excuse based on their wayward spouse or family member . . . .

I think that is opposite of what we are to do during this probation . . . however I have given up on some family members cuz I know that they listen to the same prophets, read the same scriptures, and have the same HG . . . and they don't listen to them either . . .Nephi finally gave up , too

unfortunately, an apostle cannot tell you when you need to wash your hands . . unless they are placing their hands on your head and receiving direct revelation from God . . . each person has to decide when they are giving up and in what temporal manner they are doing that . . . Jesus doesn't give up. . in the end justice takes place

maybe that is what is happening -turning down callings

ok, last comment . . this church from top to bottom keeps teaching that oil is the works that you do and the GAs like to make you think it is callings . . .not true . . .The Lord through the prophet JS tells us what the oil is and it is recorded in the D&C . . . . received truth . . . had HG as guide . . .not been deceived . . .

thats why I suspect they are tuning down callings

For a deep dive into the Second Anointing:

https://mormonstories.org/podcast/tom-p ... anointing/

Mamabear wrote: ↑March 5th, 2022, 6:26 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑March 5th, 2022, 6:20 am

Mamabear wrote: ↑March 5th, 2022, 5:51 am If they were prophets they would have known having church inconsistently with dumb rules for two years would drive membership down. I thought they “knew” of things to come.
I knew in 2020 the hyper paranoia would effect membership negatively. Common sense. They don’t even possess that.

I'm quite confident they know exactly what they are doing.

I don’t know, do you think they would do a self purge? They seem to have driven away some liberals too who are afraid of the plague…
I’ve seen people locally that are too scared to come back. One family with several children hasn’t gone in public for 2 years now. No school, no friends, no dinners, visitors, no stores.

I would add they've also driven away conservatives with the crazy adherence to face masks and not standing up for agency and freedom. Conservative friends that know I'm LDS are always shocked to discover we're no longer the church with wheat under our beds, and that the church supports BLM, and allowed the Y to be rainbowed. I'm not at a point anymore where I WANT to tell my friends about the church - it's such an embarrassment, policy-wise.

Mamabear wrote: ↑March 5th, 2022, 6:26 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑March 5th, 2022, 6:20 am

Mamabear wrote: ↑March 5th, 2022, 5:51 am If they were prophets they would have known having church inconsistently with dumb rules for two years would drive membership down. I thought they “knew” of things to come.
I knew in 2020 the hyper paranoia would effect membership negatively. Common sense. They don’t even possess that.

I'm quite confident they know exactly what they are doing.

I don’t know, do you think they would do a self purge? They seem to have driven away some liberals too who are afraid of the plague…
I’ve seen people locally that are too scared to come back. One family with several children hasn’t gone in public for 2 years now. No school, no friends, no dinners, visitors, no stores.

People don’t have perfect self-awareness. Self-Awareness being perfect assumes that you cannot be influenced by personal emotions, pride, ego, etc. I don’t feel that it really went as anticipated, but the best they can do now as church leadership is to really come to an admission of what went wrong and how to start having a response prepared in case something else comes up.

Chip wrote: ↑March 8th, 2022, 1:28 am

Mamabear wrote: ↑March 6th, 2022, 7:03 pm

tribrac wrote: ↑March 5th, 2022, 1:02 pm Its something i dont like or understand about mormon culture....a constant clamouring to get into the secrect circles.

Hold it over a neighbors head if you make it into a secret circle but they dont. Hold yourself up above others. Leaders telling the secret circles they are more special.

Then we wonder why Mormons don't have alot of love for each other, and barely any for nonmembers. Or why we talk polietly or take cookies but never help people in meaningful ways.

So true. This reminds me of the “second anointing” that takes place for special couples in temples. Another secret society for the elite leaders who think they are above the rest of the people. This counterfeit “ordinance” is a mockery of the sealing of the Spirit of promise between God and man.

Raise your hand if you think that the leaders' idea of "calling and election made sure" might pose a moral hazard.

There's a famous novel called Confessions of a Justified Sinner by James Hogg, which sends up the idea of the elect. The main character thinks "once saved, always saved" and then uses it to justify all kinds of crimes.

Niemand wrote: ↑March 8th, 2022, 11:33 am

Chip wrote: ↑March 8th, 2022, 1:28 am

Mamabear wrote: ↑March 6th, 2022, 7:03 pm

tribrac wrote: ↑March 5th, 2022, 1:02 pm Its something i dont like or understand about mormon culture....a constant clamouring to get into the secrect circles.

Hold it over a neighbors head if you make it into a secret circle but they dont. Hold yourself up above others. Leaders telling the secret circles they are more special.

Then we wonder why Mormons don't have alot of love for each other, and barely any for nonmembers. Or why we talk polietly or take cookies but never help people in meaningful ways.

So true. This reminds me of the “second anointing” that takes place for special couples in temples. Another secret society for the elite leaders who think they are above the rest of the people. This counterfeit “ordinance” is a mockery of the sealing of the Spirit of promise between God and man.

Raise your hand if you think that the leaders' idea of "calling and election made sure" might pose a moral hazard.

There's a famous novel called Confessions of a Justified Sinner by James Hogg, which sends up the idea of the elect. The main character thinks "once saved, always saved" and then uses it to justify all kinds of crimes.

Yeah, this whole vaxx thing, it's just a clerical error. No big deal. Ancient history, at this point. WE'RE ALL GOOD!!! Took care of that a long time ago.

Mamabear wrote: ↑March 7th, 2022, 6:27 am

madvin wrote: ↑March 6th, 2022, 11:31 pm

Mamabear wrote: ↑March 6th, 2022, 7:03 pm

tribrac wrote: ↑March 5th, 2022, 1:02 pm Its something i dont like or understand about mormon culture....a constant clamouring to get into the secrect circles.

Hold it over a neighbors head if you make it into a secret circle but they dont. Hold yourself up above others. Leaders telling the secret circles they are more special.

Then we wonder why Mormons don't have alot of love for each other, and barely any for nonmembers. Or why we talk polietly or take cookies but never help people in meaningful ways.

So true. This reminds me of the “second anointing” that takes place for special couples in temples. Another secret society for the elite leaders who think they are above the rest of the people. This counterfeit “ordinance” is a mockery of the sealing of the Spirit of promise between God and man.

Pardon my ignorance. What is the second anointing?

It is a temple ritual that isn’t discussed. It’s reserved for those men in higher leadership positions and their wives. Basically, it’s sort of like an extension of the initiatory. The couple is anointed as a king and queen, unconditionally. Whereas in the regular temple ordinances people are only anointed to become such on certain conditions.

So even if they sin, they get a free pass.
The ordinance is a counterfeit to a persons actual calling & election and second comforter, when he/she is sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise.

Elder Holland alludes to this secret thing in this short video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cLiZySTMedM

I don't agree that this is what he's talking about, maybe he is, but I could stand up and give a talk and say the same thing he did and mean it without even having received any second anointing ordinance. It doesn't make sense that he would be referring to that in a room of people who would have no idea what he is talking about, he even says the atonement of Jesus Christ, etc. I know that the second anointing exists and such, but I don't think he is talking about that here.

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑March 8th, 2022, 7:24 am For a deep dive into the Second Anointing:

https://mormonstories.org/podcast/tom-p ... anointing/

Disturbing. Oh the things they think they can bestow….when it’s clearly not their place.

EvanLM wrote: ↑March 8th, 2022, 6:44 am about ten years ago the Q15 decided that they would start going to areas where the saints, not the inactives, the saints were doing things that were not doctrine . . . . they were required to devote time from their busy schedule to visit these stakes and cities . . .most of this was driven by the numerous emails from members of the church, directly to general authorities, since the bishops and stake presidents always report "all is well" . . . I'm ready for my next higher assignment attitude . . . .

one of the first visits was to Boise Idaho. . . by the tim the vist weas made some 250 adult saints had been rebaptized . . .by a priesthold member . . .same form of baptism as the church uses . . .alll saints. . . no inactives . . .

another visit was to rock springs, wyo . . . to find out where the money went to build a new chapel . . . . and subdivision of town houses around the chapel . . . this time, the city of rocks springs called church headquarters to warn them of fines and a cancellation of their permit to build . . .

shall I go on????

These aren't the same thing at all. The "Boise Rescue" meeting was intended to address Denver Snuffer's series of firesides. These bishops and stake presidents with apostles and seventies meetings (with Q&A) are more generic. You're acting as though the bishops and stake presidents meetings are directly tied to things like the meetings like the "Boise Rescue" or "Swedish Rescue," which address specific problems in specific areas.

These routine meetings are not "damage control" meetings.

JK4Woods wrote: ↑March 7th, 2022, 9:35 pm Well... he is 86....

I did think about that (his advanced age).

briznian wrote: ↑March 7th, 2022, 9:47 pm In the PR photos of the church leadership, Elder Holland was sitting on/in a walker. If he’s using only a cane he would seem to be stronger than a year ago.

I did not realize this. Thanks for telling me.




So, it sounds like just failing health from being so old.

EvanLM wrote: ↑March 8th, 2022, 6:52 am . . if we honestly follow the promptings of the HG, whether we are the leader or the follower then we will have peace among all of the chaos

Profound. Yet, it should not be profound, but common sense and a common experience among all who profess to follow Christ.

Just a last tidbit from E. Holland’s training last Saturday...


E. Holland told the story about a guy who came into possession of a large beautiful Pearl.

It was one of a kind. Exceedingly rare and valuable. Worth more than a common man could earn in a lifetime.

The guy loved the Pearl so much, he commissioned a display box be made. The box was to display the Pearl and provide protection and safe keeping for the valuable Pearl inside.

The finest craftsman designed, worked and created an incredible wooden box, so ornate and remarkable that no one had ever seen anything like it.

People far and wide came to see the Pearl, and most of the visitors were taken more by the elegance and esthetic of the ornate and remarkable display box, that all wonderment and comments revolved around the display box..

The Pearl paled within the display box...

E. Holland said we need to pay way less attention to the box, and focus on the Pearl...