The Russian side of the story

[spiritMan]

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/4 ... ea-warship

why would Ukraine lie about this? Why would Russia lie about this?

Questioning the narrative is the beginning of wisdom...

Who do you think is creating all the BS propaganda for Ukraine?
Who do you think is PAYING the "volunteer" mercs? The mercs that once they are in country are not allowed to leave, the Ukrainian government sends them back to the front if they are caught leaving-so they have to escape with a humanitarian group.
Who do you think is giving all the INTEL including satellite, phone calls, etc. to Ukraine?

Instead of "why would Ukraine lie", think "why would the US lie". Everything Ukraine is doing is funded by, pushed for and strings pulled by the US government.

[mudflap]

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/4 ... ea-warship

why would Ukraine lie about this? Why would Russia lie about this?

Questioning the narrative is the beginning of wisdom...

Who do you think is creating all the BS propaganda for Ukraine?
Who do you think is PAYING the "volunteer" mercs? The mercs that once they are in country are not allowed to leave, the Ukrainian government sends them back to the front if they are caught leaving-so they have to escape with a humanitarian group.
Who do you think is giving all the INTEL including satellite, phone calls, etc. to Ukraine?

Instead of "why would Ukraine lie", think "why would the US lie". Everything Ukraine is doing is funded by, pushed for and strings pulled by the US government.

well, yes. It goes without saying that "the big guy" and his handlers and the rest of "the club" are behind all of it. I think if you read this thread from the beginning, you'll see that I agree with you 100%.

[mudflap]

lol.

[Original_Intent]

https://mises.org/wire/facing-unpleasan ... An2t6X4rQk

Having been lied into war in Iraq in 2003, the American public swore it had wised up. Sure, it went on to drop the ball by supporting the Libya intervention, itself prefaced by lies, and supported the government’s intervention in the civil war in Syria (or at least didn’t mind it), even though the US sided with the very Sunni extremists it had been fighting a few years before in Iraq. But these were admittedly obscure conflicts, made all the more so by the blatantly biased coverage of events by Western media, which parroted obvious lies about impending massacres and staged chemical weapons attacks.

[mudflap]

https://mises.org/wire/facing-unpleasan ... An2t6X4rQk

Having been lied into war in Iraq in 2003, the American public swore it had wised up. Sure, it went on to drop the ball by supporting the Libya intervention, itself prefaced by lies, and supported the government’s intervention in the civil war in Syria (or at least didn’t mind it), even though the US sided with the very Sunni extremists it had been fighting a few years before in Iraq. But these were admittedly obscure conflicts, made all the more so by the blatantly biased coverage of events by Western media, which parroted obvious lies about impending massacres and staged chemical weapons attacks.

don't forget Afghanistan - 20 years of dead troops and for what? so we could give them billions in weapons, tanks, helicopters and whatever, and still end up with the Taliban back in control just like they were in 2001?

Oh, and nobody got fired over that fiasco. Or even questioned. And the same people who screwed that job up are advising us how to handle Ukraine?

You know....if my boss gave me a project, and I screwed it up in the amount of billion$, I think on the next project he might probably choose someone else as the lead. But this is AMERICA! Where you can BE ANYTHING you want - even a failure! and not only keep your job - you get promoted.

[ajax]

[Thinker]

Some objective facts:

The Baikonur Cosmodrome (1st & largest, & Russian Exclave) is a spaceport in an area of southern Kazakhstan leased to Russia until 2050 established on 2 June 1955 by the USSR Ministry of Defence. It was originally built as the base of operations for the Soviet space program. Both Sputnik 1, the first artificial satellite, and Vostok 1, the first human spaceflight, were launched from Baikonur. The first scheduled launch of the Baiterek Rocket and Space Complex is scheduled for 2025.

*Has Jewish Autonomous Oblast
*3 biggest cities: Moscow, St. Petersburg & Novosibirsk
*California Independent Republic has embassy in Moscow
*Alaska was Russia’s then 1867 sold to US
* Cossacks - East Slavic mercenaries, received privileges from the Russian government in return for military services - helped expand Russian lands.
*(Russia began much smaller including Belarus & northern Ukraine)
*Diomede islands (2 nearby islands are split between Russia& US)
*TransSiberian Railroad - longest in world
*Largest gas/oil producer in the world
*Utta, highest temp (113 F) in Russia
*Communism - you don’t own anything. Russia seems to be an oligarchy.
*Excellent Space/rocket work. Regardless of political differences (shaking hands with fingers crossed behind backs), US & Russia are space development partners
*Several African countries influenced by Marxist communism (Somalia, Congo, Ethiopia etc) Communist Asia: China, n Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Lao
*BRIC countries: Brazil, Russia, India and China -developing.
*R supported Venezuela’s communism
R’s strongest ties: Belarus, Kazakhstan (breadbasket, most Russians besides R, Serbia.
^”Geography Now”: https://youtu.be/K8zAbdYx9SU

[mudflap]

What does a post-Russian-invaded Ukraine look like?

Moreover, the longer and more intense the futile resistance of what remains of the Ukrainian armed forces goes on, the greater and more enduring the destruction and suffering will be. The only winner will be the United States, whose leadership is obsessed with the idea of weakening Russia at any cost and maintaining its military occupation of and control over the rest of Europe.

The question also needs to be asked by Ukrainians trying to decide between the main options outlined above: are the Ukrainian government and media as well as Western countries so intent on urging people to sacrifice their lives in order to defend Ukraine’s sovereignty and the well-being of the Ukrainian people, or so that they can consolidate Western control over the Ukrainian State, economy and people through the collaboration exercised by a small number of corrupt and privileged vested political and economic groups?

https://southfront.org/ukraine-the-info ... t-ukraine/

interesting perspective.

Personally, I don't think the USA has the moral authority to claim to have ANY interest in "defending" Ukraine. As we've seen, the only interests the USA has served over the last 30+ years has been its own, and those of its "weapons oligarchs".

[ajax]

Propaganda Does Not Change The War - The Ukraine Is Still Losing
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2022/03/p ... .html#more

[ajax]

Good piece here:

6 Reasons to Stop Before You Criticize Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and the Russian Orthodox Church
https://orthodoxreflections.com/6-reaso ... ox-church/

[truefreedom]

When they tell you the world is against Russia.


.
Yellow = Sanctions against Russia
Grey = The rest of the world

[mudflap]

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2022/06/w ... .html#more

"Ukraine is winning" narrative breaking down:

[We may know in due course, but this development, even if these talks are more at the feeler stage, is proof that Zelensky is losing power. Recall that there has already been some chatter about a possible military coup. And it is hardly uncommon for the senior officials of a leader on the ropes to start negotiating with the other side, both out of the best interests of their country and to improve their odds of survival.
...
So that is a long winded way of saying that Zelensky may not have altered his stance, but that instead he is no longer driving the train. And it may also be that some in the Ukraine government are also trying to get the UK’s and US’s hands off the wheel. It may be too early for that to happen, but if they keep trying to shore up Zelensky when his own senior staff (and the military) are turning against him, they could find they bet on the wrong horse. Again, I’m not saying this is a likely outcome, but the fact that it is even conceivable is a big change in the state of play./quote]

[Niemand]

When they tell you the world is against Russia.


.
Yellow = Sanctions against Russia
Grey = The rest of the world

Reminds me of when people go on about "the international community". I ask them what they mean by that and they can never usually give me a straight answer, because it's just some phrase that they've picked up off the media.

[Niemand]

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2022/06/w ... .html#more

"Ukraine is winning" narrative breaking down:

[We may know in due course, but this development, even if these talks are more at the feeler stage, is proof that Zelensky is losing power. Recall that there has already been some chatter about a possible military coup. And it is hardly uncommon for the senior officials of a leader on the ropes to start negotiating with the other side, both out of the best interests of their country and to improve their odds of survival.
...
So that is a long winded way of saying that Zelensky may not have altered his stance, but that instead he is no longer driving the train. And it may also be that some in the Ukraine government are also trying to get the UK’s and US’s hands off the wheel. It may be too early for that to happen, but if they keep trying to shore up Zelensky when his own senior staff (and the military) are turning against him, they could find they bet on the wrong horse. Again, I’m not saying this is a likely outcome, but the fact that it is even conceivable is a big change in the state of play.

The media are trying to keep the story going that Russia is losing (in which case, why didn't this end weeks ago?), but occasionally other things slip through. Sky News keeps on trying to push the "Russia is losing" narrative in this story, but other things emerge from it.

However the commander's name Oleksandr is all too generic. It's practically the stereotypical name for Ukrainian men. Some of this does read like war propaganda.

-------

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/ukraine-war-8 ... 00775.html

Ukraine war: 80% of troops killed or injured in elite military unit, says commander - and its future is unclear

A commander of an elite unit of Ukrainian marines has told Sky News the majority of his best trained troops have been injured or killed.

Speaking near the frontline, south of the city of Severodonetsk, company commander Oleksandr said a core of experienced soldiers who had been fighting together since 2018 have been lost.

"My unit was 100% made up of professional soldiers who have a lot of experience. Now, 80% are incapacitated from serious injuries or death," he says.

In comments which will alarm those backing Ukraine in its four-month long war with Russia, he says he does not know how long his unit can sustain such losses.

"I don't even know how to answer this question," Oleksandr says.

"It's hard. It's hard but we have no choice."

Citing the number of people who have lost their lives in the defence of Severodonetsk, the governor of Luhansk, Sergey Haidai, says Ukrainians would begin to withdraw from the devastated city amid continuous Russian air and ground assaults.

Commander Oleksandr says the loss of battle-hardened troops has taken an emotional toll on his unit where members viewed each other as "one big family". [Do they?]

He now shoulders the responsibility of readying new recruits for battle.

"It's rare that we just sit here," he says.

"As a rule, we are always doing shooting practice, tactical training, medicine, engineering practice.

"During active combat we have a lot of wounded and dead so new people replace them and new people are less prepared.

"We have to train constantly for my unit to be well prepared."

Commander Oleksandr claims Russian combat losses are even higher, [Here we see the usual "correction" in these stories where they go back to the mainstream version - N ] taking Sky News to the site of major battle near the town of Avdiivka to make his point.

[Subcomandante]

One person that I listen to alot considering the current story going on in Ukraine is the Military Summary Channel on youtube. Dima (the owner of the channel) speaks a heavily accented English but explains the military movements very nicely. It is very clear that UA is losing, having lost Severodonetsk and now about 12k troops are now encircled in the neighboring city of Lysychansk.

[Fred]

I've watched with amazement over the last couple years and especially the last few weeks as America has gone from "it's a free country" to "you're a traitor" if you don't support whatever the mobocracy is supporting at moment x - be it "loving your neighbor by wearing a mask / getting jabbed" to "Defund the Police - - wait - - I mean "Fund the police" to "Believe Women - - wait - not THOSE women" to "Ukraine is 100% flower-people who dance."

It's imperative to understand both sides of any story. Listening to the other side of the story has never implied (until the last few years) you were pro-anything. It simply meant you had an open mind. You can easily detect who the propagandists are: they insist on posting only one side of the story. They claim only their sources are legitimate. They tear down or refuse to acknowledge any information that contradicts their view. This type of close-mindedness was once reserved for communists. We were told as kids that Russians couldn't say anything bad about their government or use more than one square of toilet paper or they would disappear in the middle of the night. Maybe that's still true...

But my, how the tables have turned: WE are now the ones not allowed to say anything bad about our government at the risk of being deplatformed, fired from our jobs, having our bank accounts frozen, i.e. "disappeared". You can only attend approved protests. We got played - we now have Commies among US promoting Satan's plan of power and control - power over your livelihood, and control over your freedom of speech. It's unAmerican. It goes against the Bill of Rights and our God-given rights. It's not promoting freedom when you can't even acknowledge the right of the other side to disagree with you.

"Oh no! Mudflap is a Russian Agent!" no. mudflap understands that you can't find the truth if you only listen to one side of the propaganda. Both sides lie because both sides have an agenda.

I've blocked the US Government Propagandist (Sarah). Some might say, "But - freedom of speech!" Sure. fine. Listen to Commies if you want. I've thoughtfully considered the input, and rejected most of it. I've heard enough. If you want to hear both sides of the story, you can't listen to both them at the same time. When the commie talking points are being spouted from every news media outlet 24x7 - Fox and otherwise - it's not like you miss it. Actually, you can't NOT listen. So, I carved out a little "freedom of speech zone" here with this thread where you can post all the "Russian propaganda" and we can all thoughtfully evaluate it without the input of "Afghan Loser and WhiteGenocide Milley", Drunk Nancy, "TrumpZombie Romney", or "Empty Gas Tanks Joe" spewing talking points.

Here's what the Russians are saying:



wait - Joe Biden and all those blue/yellow flag facebook folks are Nazi supporters?


~ https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1 ... v-regiment

Use your God-given intellect and inspiration to figure out the truth.

Not sure why you're so mad at me. I've never justified anything our government has done. My argument has always been that they are in bed with Putin and this is a false East West battle.

That's not really true. You say this is what you think but whenever you are discussing individual cases you always adhere 100% to the official US govt narrative and 100% refuse to believe anything from the other side.

Even when it's obvious our govt has been wrong and done illegal things you will claim it was all Russia's fault somehow.

You are totally and completely one-sided.

Just because my point of view about Russia's guilt happens to be what our government is saying at the moment, doesn't mean that I support our US government and their actions.

I've explained why our government is now placed in the position of standing up to Russia. It's what Putin wants. It's what he and Xi have planned for. They want the West to be up in arms against Russia at this point because he wants the US drawn into a real war where Russian and Chinese forces can actually start destroying their military, and have a justification for doing so. They need the world to have a reason to enter a global conflict of East vs. West. When the US finally does enter into war mode, Putin will have secured his alliances, and set in place the measures needed to detach himself with the West. China of course saw this coming, so that when the cut-off from swift happened, and sanctions were declared, China says, we will provide you with what you need. You don't need swift, or the Western imports. We have your back!

So now that that is in place for the Russian economy to at least survive for the moment, they are ready to take on the US forces while helping Iran and hanging out with Assad in Syria with their two military bases there, ready to take on the US when they get involved in the Middle East.

I wouldn't exactly say that the USA is standing up to Russia. Russia is getting right around an extra Billion dollars per day from oil sales because of Joe standing up. I don't doubt your premise that they planned it though. Putin, Xi, and Joe. One might say that Russia never had it so good as after Joe stood up to him and handed him a cool billion per day.

[Niemand]

Not sure why you're so mad at me. I've never justified anything our government has done. My argument has always been that they are in bed with Putin and this is a false East West battle.

That's not really true. You say this is what you think but whenever you are discussing individual cases you always adhere 100% to the official US govt narrative and 100% refuse to believe anything from the other side.

Even when it's obvious our govt has been wrong and done illegal things you will claim it was all Russia's fault somehow.

You are totally and completely one-sided.

Just because my point of view about Russia's guilt happens to be what our government is saying at the moment, doesn't mean that I support our US government and their actions.

I've explained why our government is now placed in the position of standing up to Russia. It's what Putin wants. It's what he and Xi have planned for. They want the West to be up in arms against Russia at this point because he wants the US drawn into a real war where Russian and Chinese forces can actually start destroying their military, and have a justification for doing so. They need the world to have a reason to enter a global conflict of East vs. West. When the US finally does enter into war mode, Putin will have secured his alliances, and set in place the measures needed to detach himself with the West. China of course saw this coming, so that when the cut-off from swift happened, and sanctions were declared, China says, we will provide you with what you need. You don't need swift, or the Western imports. We have your back!

So now that that is in place for the Russian economy to at least survive for the moment, they are ready to take on the US forces while helping Iran and hanging out with Assad in Syria with their two military bases there, ready to take on the US when they get involved in the Middle East.

I wouldn't exactly say that the USA is standing up to Russia. Russia is getting right around an extra Billion dollars per day from oil sales because of Joe standing up. I don't doubt your premise that they planned it though. Putin, Xi, and Joe. One might say that Russia never had it so good as after Joe stood up to him and handed him a cool billion per day.

I thought he'd try and step in and protect Hunter's investments.

[mudflap]

https://www.informationclearinghouse.info/57283.htm

Can you see the yellow dots? Those dots represent the artillery strikes that were documented in daily summaries by “observers of the Organization for Security and Co-operation (OSCE), positioned at the frontlines.” The vast majority of the strikes were in the area inhabited by Russian-speaking people who have been under military siege for the last 8 years. (14,000 ethnic Russians have been killed in the fighting since 2014.) The Minsk Agreements were drawn up to resolve the issues between the warring parties and end the hostilities, but the government in Kiev refused to implement the agreement. In fact, the former President of Ukraine, Petro Poroshenko, even admitted that the treaty was just a vehicle for buying time until another full-scale offensive on the Donbas could be launched.

In short, the Ukrainian government never had any intention of reaching a peaceful settlement with leaders of the Donbas. Their goal was to intensify the conflict in order to provoke Russia and draw them into a protracted war that would exhaust their resources and collapse their economy. The long-range objective was to remove Putin from office and replace him with a Washington-backed stooge that would do as he was told. US officials– including Joe Biden- have even admitted that their plan involved regime change in Moscow. We should take them at their word.

it's almost like Joe Biden was installed as a puppet so "they" could start this war with Russia.

We're sending billions to Ukraine, but you got a check for $1500 that inflation wiped out, and soon-to-be (again) $5+ gas. Are you happy now?

[tribrac]

Damn Russians hacked our church records.

I'm with Joe and Mitt ...blow them Russians all to hell.*



*Portions of this post may contain intentional and/or unintentional sarcasm.

[tribrac]

Tonight I am watching Hunt for Red October.

The opening song creeps me out ...Russians singing about October Victories. Movie about stealth nuke sub that sails out in October. Sean O'Connorery just killed Putin.

Life imitates art.

And Alex Baldwin was a handsome man before he got all creepy.

[Niemand]

Tonight I am watching Hunt for Red October.

The opening song creeps me out ...Russians singing about October Victories. Movie about stealth nuke sub that sails out in October. Sean O'Connorery just killed Putin.

Life imitates art.

And Alex Baldwin was a handsome man before he got all creepy.

Haven't seen this for a while, but it's one of my favourite Connery films. The October Revolution was a huge part of Soviet mythology. Basically, Russia had a genuine revolution, but then the Bolsheviks/Communists decided to take over and had their own revolution against the real one and mounted a coup.

As for Baldwin... good actors aren't always good people. Kevin Spacey is a great actor and often worth watching in real life. But apparently a complete bar steward in real life.

By coincidence, I was chatting to a friend's long term boyfriend recently. I didn't know he'd worked on the Royal Navy's nuclear subs in the seventies and early eighties. He told me that the old Soviet nuclear subs were VERY noisy, much noisier than the Royal Navy ones. They could practically follow them through the North Atlantic by the racket they made. It was much easier for them to follow the Soviets than vice versa. This was a big part of the plot of Red October. Ramius' vessel was supposed to be silent.

[gkearney]

It is interesting that Lenin never referred to the events of October 1917 as a revolution but rather as a coup. This is because he envisioned the Communist revolution as a European wide event taking place in nations such as Germany and France.

It would not be until the 1930s under Stalin that the idea of the “October Revolution” would take hold in the USSR.

[Niemand]

It is interesting that Lenin never referred to the events of October 1917 as a revolution but rather as a coup. This is because he envisioned the Communist revolution as a European wide event taking place in nations such as Germany and France.

It would not be until the 1930s under Stalin that the idea of the “October Revolution” would take hold in the USSR.

Lenin's description is more accurate. There was chaos from an actual revolution and the Bolsheviks stepped in.

And as any student knows... a few years later the Bolsheviks were putting down authentic workers' rebellions such as Kronstadt etc.

[buffalo_girl]

Wonder how the Kiev Temple fares from Russian infrastructure strikes...

[Scooter]

Tonight I am watching Hunt for Red October.

The opening song creeps me out ...Russians singing about October Victories. Movie about stealth nuke sub that sails out in October. Sean O'Connorery just killed Putin.

Life imitates art.

And Alex Baldwin was a handsome man before he got all creepy.

Haven't seen this for a while, but it's one of my favourite Connery films. The October Revolution was a huge part of Soviet mythology. Basically, Russia had a genuine revolution, but then the Bolsheviks/Communists decided to take over and had their own revolution against the real one and mounted a coup.

As for Baldwin... good actors aren't always good people. Kevin Spacey is a great actor and often worth watching in real life. But apparently a complete bar steward in real life.

By coincidence, I was chatting to a friend's long term boyfriend recently. I didn't know he'd worked on the Royal Navy's nuclear subs in the seventies and early eighties. He told me that the old Soviet nuclear subs were VERY noisy, much noisier than the Royal Navy ones. They could practically follow them through the North Atlantic by the racket they made. It was much easier for them to follow the Soviets than vice versa. This was a big part of the plot of Red October. Ramius' vessel was supposed to be silent.

This is still pretty much true. A good friend of mine was a sonar guy on a Los Angeles class back in the day, and he used to tell me that russian subs were the equivalent of a dump truck full of junk driving down a bumpy road. They could hear them a long, long way off.