Differing View on the Ukraine/Russia Conflict

[investigator]

Here is a link to a differing view on what is going on in Ukraine/Russia titled They're Trying To Get You To Support Another Phony War .

https://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2022 ... t.html?m=1

[ajax]

He's not wrong

[Original_Intent]

Russel Brand takes a look at both sides of the argument. A good approach.

[ajax]

He also had this a couple days before:

[Sarah]

Here is a link to a differing view on what is going on in Ukraine/Russia titled They're Trying To Get You To Support Another Phony War .

https://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2022 ... t.html?m=1

The guy is just repeating the Russian narrative. He says that the Ukrainian government has been shelling it's own people in Eastern Ukraine, but that is not true and there's no proof. The many testimonies out there are that the Russian "separatists" have been shooting at the Ukrainians every day. Just watch all the videos I posted of reporters on the front lines.
This guy also claims that the government in Ukraine are Western puppets, but I just did a post about how un-western these guys are acting.

[ajax]

It All Comes Back to NATO
Ron Paul
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2022/03/ron ... k-to-nato/

When the Bush Administration announced in 2008 that Ukraine and Georgia would be eligible for NATO membership, I knew it was a terrible idea. Nearly two decades after the end of both the Warsaw Pact and the Cold War, expanding NATO made no sense. NATO itself made no sense.

Explaining my “no” vote on a bill to endorse the expansion, I said at the time:

NATO is an organization whose purpose ended with the end of its Warsaw Pact adversary… This current round of NATO expansion is a political reward to governments in Georgia and Ukraine that came to power as a result of US-supported revolutions, the so-called Orange Revolution and Rose Revolution.

Providing US military guarantees to Ukraine and Georgia can only further strain our military. This NATO expansion may well involve the US military in conflicts unrelated to our national interest…

Unfortunately, as we have seen this past week, my fears have come true. One does not need to approve of Russia’s military actions to analyze its stated motivation: NATO membership for Ukraine was a red line it was not willing to see crossed. As we find ourselves at risk of a terrible escalation, we should remind ourselves that it didn’t have to happen this way. There was no advantage to the United States to expand and threaten to expand NATO to Russia’s doorstep. There is no way to argue that we are any safer for it.

NATO itself was a huge mistake.

When in 1949 the US Senate initially voted on the NATO treaty, Sen. Roberg Taft – known as “Mr. Republican” – gave an excellent speech on why he voted against creating NATO.

Explaining his “no” vote, Taft said:

… the treaty is a part of a much larger program by which we arm all these nations against Russia… A joint military program has already been made… It thus becomes an offensive and defensive military alliance against Russia. I believe our foreign policy should be aimed primarily at security and peace, and I believe such an alliance is more likely to produce war than peace.

Taft continued:

If we undertake to arm all the nations around Russia…and Russia sees itself ringed about gradually by so-called defensive arms from Norway and Denmark to Turkey and Greece, it may form a different opinion. It may decide that the arming of western Europe, regardless of its present purpose, looks to an attack upon Russia. Its view may be unreasonable, and I think it is. But from the Russian standpoint it may not seem unreasonable. They may well decide that if war is the certain result, that war might better occur now rather than after the arming of Europe is completed…

How right he was.

NATO went off the rails long before 2008, however. The North Atlantic Treaty was signed on April 4, 1949 and by the start of the Korean War just over a year later, NATO was very much involved in the military operation of the war in Asia, not Europe!

NATO’s purpose was stated to “guarantee the safety and freedom of its members by political and military means.” It is a job not well done!

I believe as strongly today as I did back in my 2008 House Floor speech that, “NATO should be disbanded, not expanded.” In the meantime, expansion should be off the table. The risks do not outweigh the benefits!

[Original_Intent]

Call it confirmation bias but reading what Ron Paul had to say makes me feel more certain than ever that we should proceed cautiously and skeptically of what our mainstream media tells us.

[Sarah]

It All Comes Back to NATO
Ron Paul
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2022/03/ron ... k-to-nato/

When the Bush Administration announced in 2008 that Ukraine and Georgia would be eligible for NATO membership, I knew it was a terrible idea. Nearly two decades after the end of both the Warsaw Pact and the Cold War, expanding NATO made no sense. NATO itself made no sense.

Explaining my “no” vote on a bill to endorse the expansion, I said at the time:

NATO is an organization whose purpose ended with the end of its Warsaw Pact adversary… This current round of NATO expansion is a political reward to governments in Georgia and Ukraine that came to power as a result of US-supported revolutions, the so-called Orange Revolution and Rose Revolution.

Providing US military guarantees to Ukraine and Georgia can only further strain our military. This NATO expansion may well involve the US military in conflicts unrelated to our national interest…

Unfortunately, as we have seen this past week, my fears have come true. One does not need to approve of Russia’s military actions to analyze its stated motivation: NATO membership for Ukraine was a red line it was not willing to see crossed. As we find ourselves at risk of a terrible escalation, we should remind ourselves that it didn’t have to happen this way. There was no advantage to the United States to expand and threaten to expand NATO to Russia’s doorstep. There is no way to argue that we are any safer for it.

NATO itself was a huge mistake.

When in 1949 the US Senate initially voted on the NATO treaty, Sen. Roberg Taft – known as “Mr. Republican” – gave an excellent speech on why he voted against creating NATO.

Explaining his “no” vote, Taft said:

… the treaty is a part of a much larger program by which we arm all these nations against Russia… A joint military program has already been made… It thus becomes an offensive and defensive military alliance against Russia. I believe our foreign policy should be aimed primarily at security and peace, and I believe such an alliance is more likely to produce war than peace.

Taft continued:

If we undertake to arm all the nations around Russia…and Russia sees itself ringed about gradually by so-called defensive arms from Norway and Denmark to Turkey and Greece, it may form a different opinion. It may decide that the arming of western Europe, regardless of its present purpose, looks to an attack upon Russia. Its view may be unreasonable, and I think it is. But from the Russian standpoint it may not seem unreasonable. They may well decide that if war is the certain result, that war might better occur now rather than after the arming of Europe is completed…

How right he was.

NATO went off the rails long before 2008, however. The North Atlantic Treaty was signed on April 4, 1949 and by the start of the Korean War just over a year later, NATO was very much involved in the military operation of the war in Asia, not Europe!

NATO’s purpose was stated to “guarantee the safety and freedom of its members by political and military means.” It is a job not well done!

I believe as strongly today as I did back in my 2008 House Floor speech that, “NATO should be disbanded, not expanded.” In the meantime, expansion should be off the table. The risks do not outweigh the benefits!

It all comes down to a double standard. Russia says if you receive big guns, we will kill you. All the while Russia has really big guns. So why doesn't Ukraine demand that Russia give up it's guns for the peace of the region - to show that they really mean to have peace with Ukraine.

[ajax]

This is silly. Why doesn’t the US give up its big guns? Why doesn’t it allow Mexico to have big guns? This is not reality based. As Mearsheimer stated, it will allow Ukraine to be a neutral buffer at best. Whether you like it or not, that’s reality. For us to try to change this reality is fantasy.

[Sarah]

This is silly. Why doesn’t the US give up its big guns? Why doesn’t it allow Mexico to have big guns? This is not reality based. As Mearsheimer stated, it will allow Ukraine to be a neutral buffer at best. Whether you like it or not, that’s reality. For us to try to change this reality is fantasy.

It's not realistic for Russia to think it can be super strong militarily and it's neighbors will not want to match their strength so they don't get run over, just like Russia is doing now.

[ajax]

Again, whether you like or not, if you know a party is going to act a certain way, and they are armed with enough nukes to blow up the world, and they've warned you, you better tread lightly when you walk into their neighborhood and start barking orders. Your foreign policy better be realist. Or you may end up with Russian subs off the coast of Jersey. We have not tried non-interventionism. All this interventionism has brought us to this point. Brilliant. We've been warned and forewarned. Ron Paul was the unheeded prophet. His message was rejected.

[tmac]

I agree with Ajax. It's completely unrealistic. It is completely unrealistic to think that some things could ever be made equal without really upsetting the existing apple cart.

[NeveR]

This is silly. Why doesn’t the US give up its big guns? Why doesn’t it allow Mexico to have big guns? This is not reality based. As Mearsheimer stated, it will allow Ukraine to be a neutral buffer at best. Whether you like it or not, that’s reality. For us to try to change this reality is fantasy.

It's not realistic for Russia to think it can be super strong militarily and it's neighbors will not want to match their strength so they don't get run over, just like Russia is doing now.

Why not? As Ajax said (and you ignored) - why is it ok for the US to place limits on other countries' weapons, but wrong for Russia to do the same?

We would not stand for Mexico to host or obtain Russian nukes would we?

Why should it be different the other way round?

[Sarah]

Again, whether you like or not, if you know a party is going to act a certain way, and they are armed with enough nukes to blow up the world, and they've warned you, you better tread lightly when you walk into their neighborhood and start barking orders. Your foreign policy better be realist. Or you may end up with Russian subs off the coast of Jersey. We have not tried non-interventionism. All this interventionism has brought us to this point. Brilliant. We've been warned and forewarned. Ron Paul was the unheeded prophet. His message was rejected.

Right. Everyone knows Russia could blow you up at any moment, and provoking them is suicidal. That's why we should fear Soros and Klaus and the CIA.
Ron Paul is a compromised opportunist. There are some threads about him on here, I'll have to dig them up...

[Sarah]

This is silly. Why doesn’t the US give up its big guns? Why doesn’t it allow Mexico to have big guns? This is not reality based. As Mearsheimer stated, it will allow Ukraine to be a neutral buffer at best. Whether you like it or not, that’s reality. For us to try to change this reality is fantasy.

It's not realistic for Russia to think it can be super strong militarily and it's neighbors will not want to match their strength so they don't get run over, just like Russia is doing now.

Why not? As Ajax said (and you ignored) - why is it ok for the US to place limits on other countries' weapons, but wrong for Russia to do the same?

We would not stand for Mexico to host or obtain Russian nukes would we?

Why should it be different the other way round?

If that's the reality for both nations, then preach what it should be, rather than saying one wrong makes the other justified. Either one demanding things and threatening aren't justified. They probably have suitcase nukes already within our borders. And they probably aren't making any showy deals with Mexico so they can claim moral authority.

[Sarah]

This is silly. Why doesn’t the US give up its big guns? Why doesn’t it allow Mexico to have big guns? This is not reality based. As Mearsheimer stated, it will allow Ukraine to be a neutral buffer at best. Whether you like it or not, that’s reality. For us to try to change this reality is fantasy.

It's not realistic for Russia to think it can be super strong militarily and it's neighbors will not want to match their strength so they don't get run over, just like Russia is doing now.

Why not? As Ajax said (and you ignored) - why is it ok for the US to place limits on other countries' weapons, but wrong for Russia to do the same?

We would not stand for Mexico to host or obtain Russian nukes would we?

Why should it be different the other way round?

"And you ignored" Man you are something. I do have 5 kids and a life to juggle between reading every comment.

[TheDuke]

Does anyone remember when Russia was taking over the world? I mean there was once Russia the smallish country the US saved with Lend lease in WW II, then there is Stalin's Russia/USSR, take half of Korea, Viet Nam, Poland, Check, ....... on and on and on. Then say all democracy is evil and spread like wildfire destroying anything in its way, heading to South America, Cuba, islands, etc... Only the cold war slowed them up. Any hot war brought nukes. It is a terrible way to exist, but there were no options after the soviet spies got the atom bomb secrets.

The US slowed and stopped the creep. Same for China. Yet we allowed half of the world to be ruled by Russia and China for a half of a century (damned Roosevelt then Truman). All those people killed and freedom lost when we had a chance to do it right, but like most here sacrificing for someone else's freedom is TOO costly and TOO risky. Just forget everyone else, build a log cabin in the middle of no where, hide from the world, after all every one of us came to this mortal probation to hide, be acted upon, give up other's freedom for out comfort, wait for Christ and perfection (in a Telestial sphere).

Again, I'm not suggesting going to war. But, I will say that all those who rewrite history to say Russia is good, NATO is bad, either don't know what they are talking about or have literally forgotten the past, well I guess the next step is reading 1619 history, maybe the folks on this thread can post us the truth, I mean the whole truth the entire 1619 version (whites are bad, men are bad, Hitler was good, Jews are bad, Russia is good (well except when they fought Germany), China is benevolent, NATO is bad, UK enslaved the entire world for centuries, etc....)

Right now, what ever happened in the past is history, what is happening is innocent people are being killed for no good reason. that is evil. There is no excuse for supporting its happening. There were no threats to Russia or Russian freedom, there was no one in Russia being killed, neither the Ukraine nor Europe nor US nor NATO was doing anything to hurt Russia or Russian people. Throwing dirt on America or NATO is just following Satan's continual plan. Just like 1619, just like BLM, just like ANTIFA, etc.... tear down things without providing any way forward.

At least with conflicting situations (war, COVID, vaxes) we get to see people for who they really are, but on the left and on the right, both LDS and the LDS haters.

[EvanLM]

Here is a link to a differing view on what is going on in Ukraine/Russia titled They're Trying To Get You To Support Another Phony War .

https://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2022 ... t.html?m=1

youu are right . . lies by our gad government . . there is bombing going on but not cuz of domination

[EvanLM]

Call it confirmation bias but reading what Ron Paul had to say makes me feel more certain than ever that we should proceed cautiously and skeptically of what our mainstream media tells us.

oh yeah

[EvanLM]

Does anyone remember when Russia was taking over the world? I mean there was once Russia the smallish country the US saved with Lend lease in WW II, then there is Stalin's Russia/USSR, take half of Korea, Viet Nam, Poland, Check, ....... on and on and on. Then say all democracy is evil and spread like wildfire destroying anything in its way, heading to South America, Cuba, islands, etc... Only the cold war slowed them up. Any hot war brought nukes. It is a terrible way to exist, but there were no options after the soviet spies got the atom bomb secrets.

The US slowed and stopped the creep. Same for China. Yet we allowed half of the world to be ruled by Russia and China for a half of a century (damned Roosevelt then Truman). All those people killed and freedom lost when we had a chance to do it right, but like most here sacrificing for someone else's freedom is TOO costly and TOO risky. Just forget everyone else, build a log cabin in the middle of no where, hide from the world, after all every one of us came to this mortal probation to hide, be acted upon, give up other's freedom for out comfort, wait for Christ and perfection (in a Telestial sphere).

Again, I'm not suggesting going to war. But, I will say that all those who rewrite history to say Russia is good, NATO is bad, either don't know what they are talking about or have literally forgotten the past, well I guess the next step is reading 1619 history, maybe the folks on this thread can post us the truth, I mean the whole truth the entire 1619 version (whites are bad, men are bad, Hitler was good, Jews are bad, Russia is good (well except when they fought Germany), China is benevolent, NATO is bad, UK enslaved the entire world for centuries, etc....)

Right now, what ever happened in the past is history, what is happening is innocent people are being killed for no good reason. that is evil. There is no excuse for supporting its happening. There were no threats to Russia or Russian freedom, there was no one in Russia being killed, neither the Ukraine nor Europe nor US nor NATO was doing anything to hurt Russia or Russian people. Throwing dirt on America or NATO is just following Satan's continual plan. Just like 1619, just like BLM, just like ANTIFA, etc.... tear down things without providing any way forward.

At least with conflicting situations (war, COVID, vaxes) we get to see people for who they really are, but on the left and on the right, both LDS and the LDS haters.

in WW1, russia had no military and suffered so much that they said no country would ever do that to them again . . .they fought the war with pitchforks basically . . . the gold that was plundered out of their country is still on an island off the coast of Japan and heavily guarded. . . . . american government has been taken over by gadiantons . . .criminals . . . americans need to quit supporting their plunder and crimes against the world we live in . . . gads always lie . . . and they have lied to the american people

[NeveR]

Does anyone remember when Russia was taking over the world? I mean there was once Russia the smallish country the US saved with Lend lease in WW II, then there is Stalin's Russia/USSR, take half of Korea, Viet Nam, Poland, Check, ....... on and on and on. Then say all democracy is evil and spread like wildfire destroying anything in its way, heading to South America, Cuba, islands, etc... Only the cold war slowed them up. Any hot war brought nukes. It is a terrible way to exist, but there were no options after the soviet spies got the atom bomb secrets.

The US slowed and stopped the creep. Same for China. Yet we allowed half of the world to be ruled by Russia and China for a half of a century (damned Roosevelt then Truman). All those people killed and freedom lost when we had a chance to do it right, but like most here sacrificing for someone else's freedom is TOO costly and TOO risky. Just forget everyone else, build a log cabin in the middle of no where, hide from the world, after all every one of us came to this mortal probation to hide, be acted upon, give up other's freedom for out comfort, wait for Christ and perfection (in a Telestial sphere).

Again, I'm not suggesting going to war. But, I will say that all those who rewrite history to say Russia is good, NATO is bad, either don't know what they are talking about or have literally forgotten the past, well I guess the next step is reading 1619 history, maybe the folks on this thread can post us the truth, I mean the whole truth the entire 1619 version (whites are bad, men are bad, Hitler was good, Jews are bad, Russia is good (well except when they fought Germany), China is benevolent, NATO is bad, UK enslaved the entire world for centuries, etc....)

Right now, what ever happened in the past is history, what is happening is innocent people are being killed for no good reason. that is evil. There is no excuse for supporting its happening. There were no threats to Russia or Russian freedom, there was no one in Russia being killed, neither the Ukraine nor Europe nor US nor NATO was doing anything to hurt Russia or Russian people. Throwing dirt on America or NATO is just following Satan's continual plan. Just like 1619, just like BLM, just like ANTIFA, etc.... tear down things without providing any way forward.

At least with conflicting situations (war, COVID, vaxes) we get to see people for who they really are, but on the left and on the right, both LDS and the LDS haters.

Firstly I'm NOT saying Russia is good and NATO is bad. I'm trying to simply give facts.

Your comment is just factually all over the place.

"Russia the smallish country"??

Duke, Russia, on its own, is by area the biggest country in the world. 6.6 million miles squared. TWO TIMES the size of the United States.

It was also already part of the Soviet Union when Lend Lease happened. The SU was formed in 1918.

Lend Lease sure did save it, but the SU also saved Europe and America by destroying Hitler in the east and losing 20 million dead in the process. D Day could not have happened if Germany had not been pouring so much manpower into staving off the Soviet advance.

And the area of the SU's influence post-war was agreed at Yalta and elsewhere and incorporated most of the Warsaw Pact. The idea it was all grabbed under duress by Stalin is a myth/exaggeration.

And no, I'm not saying Stalin was great, or even ok. These are just the facts.

Re. Ukraine - You can't just say "this invasion is evil" without some reference to context.

Are all invasions automatically evil? Were the US invasions of Syria, Iraq etc etc also evil? If not, why not?

You say there were "no threats" to Russia. Really? Think about it from their perspective.

If Ukraine hosted NATO nukes they'd be right on Russia's doorstep. Just a few miles from their western military bases.

If Mexico wanted to join a Russian alliance and host Russian nukes wouldn't you see that as a threat?

It's not about excusing wrong, ok. I actually don't support what Russia did any more than I supported our illegal invasions. But it's about demanding consistency from ourselves and some awareness of the innate double standard the US employs because we see ourselves as "exceptional"

[Artaxerxes]

Does anyone remember when Russia was taking over the world? I mean there was once Russia the smallish country the US saved with Lend lease in WW II, then there is Stalin's Russia/USSR, take half of Korea, Viet Nam, Poland, Check, ....... on and on and on. Then say all democracy is evil and spread like wildfire destroying anything in its way, heading to South America, Cuba, islands, etc... Only the cold war slowed them up. Any hot war brought nukes. It is a terrible way to exist, but there were no options after the soviet spies got the atom bomb secrets.

The US slowed and stopped the creep. Same for China. Yet we allowed half of the world to be ruled by Russia and China for a half of a century (damned Roosevelt then Truman). All those people killed and freedom lost when we had a chance to do it right, but like most here sacrificing for someone else's freedom is TOO costly and TOO risky. Just forget everyone else, build a log cabin in the middle of no where, hide from the world, after all every one of us came to this mortal probation to hide, be acted upon, give up other's freedom for out comfort, wait for Christ and perfection (in a Telestial sphere).

Again, I'm not suggesting going to war. But, I will say that all those who rewrite history to say Russia is good, NATO is bad, either don't know what they are talking about or have literally forgotten the past, well I guess the next step is reading 1619 history, maybe the folks on this thread can post us the truth, I mean the whole truth the entire 1619 version (whites are bad, men are bad, Hitler was good, Jews are bad, Russia is good (well except when they fought Germany), China is benevolent, NATO is bad, UK enslaved the entire world for centuries, etc....)

Right now, what ever happened in the past is history, what is happening is innocent people are being killed for no good reason. that is evil. There is no excuse for supporting its happening. There were no threats to Russia or Russian freedom, there was no one in Russia being killed, neither the Ukraine nor Europe nor US nor NATO was doing anything to hurt Russia or Russian people. Throwing dirt on America or NATO is just following Satan's continual plan. Just like 1619, just like BLM, just like ANTIFA, etc.... tear down things without providing any way forward.

At least with conflicting situations (war, COVID, vaxes) we get to see people for who they really are, but on the left and on the right, both LDS and the LDS haters.

Firstly I'm NOT saying Russia is good and NATO is bad. I'm trying to simply give facts.

Your comment is just factually all over the place.

"Russia the smallish country"??

Duke, Russia, on its own, is by area the biggest country in the world. 6.6 million miles squared. TWO TIMES the size of the United States.

It was also already part of the Soviet Union when Lend Lease happened. The SU was formed in 1918.

Lend Lease sure did save it, but the SU also saved Europe and America by destroying Hitler in the east and losing 20 million dead in the process. D Day could not have happened if Germany had not been pouring so much manpower into staving off the Soviet advance.

And the area of the SU's influence post-war was agreed at Yalta and elsewhere and incorporated most of the Warsaw Pact. The idea it was all grabbed under duress by Stalin is a myth/exaggeration.

And no, I'm not saying Stalin was great, or even ok. These are just the facts.

Re. Ukraine - You can't just say "this invasion is evil" without some reference to context.

Are all invasions automatically evil? Were the US invasions of Syria, Iraq etc etc also evil? If not, why not?

You say there were "no threats" to Russia. Really? Think about it from their perspective.

If Ukraine hosted NATO nukes they'd be right on Russia's doorstep. Just a few miles from their western military bases.

If Mexico wanted to join a Russian alliance and host Russian nukes wouldn't you see that as a threat?

It's not about excusing wrong, ok. I actually don't support what Russia did any more than I supported our illegal invasions. But it's about demanding consistency from ourselves and some awareness of the innate double standard the US employs because we see ourselves as "exceptional"

The great threat is that Ukraine might join Nato (which they haven't asked to do), and after that, they might host nukes (which no one has proposed doing), therefore Ukraine is super scary and has to be invaded now because of those things that no one is proposing?

[gruden2.0]

Whatever you think about the situation, know that you're being manipulated.

[tmac]

Whatever you think about the situation, know that you're being manipulated.

Truest statement yet -- just like all the other bullsh!t we're fed by the MSM. . . Continually manipulated.

[ajax]

Interesting recent interview with John Mearsheimer
https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/ ... in-ukraine


And for those who haven’t seen it yet, here is his prescient 2015 speech