Does God choose the prophet?

[KNC]

I would bet this has been talked about already but I can’t find it.

It’s my understanding that since Brigham Young we have chosen the next prophet based on seniority, correct?

Based on my reading, it seems this just became procedure not really based on revelation but there’s a strong belief that God wouldn’t allow someone to be prophet if it wasn’t His will and that He would step in if it was wrong (based on the quotes I’ve read from prophets and apostles).

But the seniority successor policy sounds a lot like the church Christ came to do away with. The church leaders believed the oldest were wisest and most important and Christ taught that seniority didn’t matter, the person mattered. So he called fishermen and an accountant etc…. To be His disciples.

And for the restoration, Christ didn’t come to a church leader, He and The Father came to a farmer boy.

…my question is; what if God hasn’t so much called these prophets as He has allowed them?

We know the scriptures speak of the watchers in the last day as sleeping or drunk until He lifts up a servant…maybe God wants to pour out more prophecy and revelation to us but because we choose to be lead by who we choose, rather than who He chooses, we get what we bargained for until finally He says enough?

I do believe our prophets are good men; susceptible to ego and deception, but not at all malicious. And I do sustain our prophet as a key holder. However, SEEMINGLY they do appear to fear man more than God.

Is this another policy procedure that is just traditional so no one questions it?

[Niemand]

Only in the sense that God has not struck down these men when they were younger.

[heliocentr1c]

I would bet this has been talked about already but I can’t find it.

It’s my understanding that since Brigham Young we have chosen the next prophet based on seniority, correct?

Based on my reading, it seems this just became procedure not really based on revelation but there’s a strong belief that God wouldn’t allow someone to be prophet if it wasn’t His will and that He would step in if it was wrong (based on the quotes I’ve read from prophets and apostles).

But the seniority successor policy sounds a lot like the church Christ came to do away with. The church leaders believed the oldest were wisest and most important and Christ taught that seniority didn’t matter, the person mattered. So he called fishermen and an accountant etc…. To be His disciples.

And for the restoration, Christ didn’t come to a church leader, He and The Father came to a farmer boy.

…my question is; what if God hasn’t so much called these prophets as He has allowed them?

We know the scriptures speak of the watchers in the last day as sleeping or drunk until He lifts up a servant…maybe God wants to pour out more prophecy and revelation to us but because we choose to be lead by who we choose, rather than who He chooses, we get what we bargained for until finally He says enough?

I do believe our prophets are good men; susceptible to ego and deception, but not at all malicious. And I do sustain our prophet as a key holder. However, SEEMINGLY they do appear to fear man more than God.

Is this another policy procedure that is just traditional so no one questions it?

Is there any revelation or revealed scripture outlining the ‘prophet by seniority’ approach as being condoned by God or as setting precedent in the scriptures?

If not, then this would imply the process is purely procedural, wouldn’t it?

[tmac]

Aside from Levites, who have the lower Levitical priesthood purely by lineage, the only method other than direct revelation that I am aware of from the scriptures, is selection based on drawing lots, which is how all Amish church leaders are chosen. And I have a whole lot more faith and confidence in that method rather than the LDS method. At least it provides God with a clear opportunity to make His will known -- although I am convinced that the vast majority of the time, except when He chooses to reach out and get directly involved in an unmistakable way, the rest of the time He probably just stands back and let's nature take its course.

[Gadianton Slayer]

God chooses His prophets. Not all who claim to be His prophets are telling the truth.

[Mamabear]

God chooses his prophets, as we can plainly see from the scriptures. Look up how he called Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, etc. it is done no other way. A prophet is called personally by God. A prophet is not called by man or the people or seniority…..these are counterfeits to the real thing. Please beware of false prophets.

Edit:
Brigham Young admitted several times that he was not a prophet:

August 15, 1844 (Times & Seasons, 5:618)
“You are now without a prophet present with you in the flesh to guide you; but you are not without apostles”

April 7, 1852 (Journal of Discourses 6:320)
“A person was mentioned to-day who did not believe that Brigham Young was a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator. I wish to ask every member of this whole community, if they ever heard him profess to be a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, as Joseph Smith was? Who ordained me to be First President of this Church on earth? I answer, It is the choice of this people, and that is sufficient.” (see Article of Faith #5)

April 6, 1853 (Journal of Discourses 1:136)
“Now will it cause some of you to marvel that I was not ordained a High Priest before I was ordained an Apostle? Brother Kimball and myself were never ordained High Priests. How wonderful! … When a man is ordained to be an Apostle, his Priesthood is without beginning of days, or end of life, like the Priesthood of Melchizedek” (as we covered above, his apostolic charge stated that “your ordination is not full and complete till God has laid His hand upon you.” Scriptures support this in JST Genesis 14:28)

July 26, 1857, (Journal of Discourses 5:72-78)
I am not going to interpret dreams; for I don’t profess to be such a Prophet as were Joseph Smith and Daniel; but I am a Yankee guesser;

June 3, 1860 (Journal of Discourses 8:69)
“The brethren testify that brother Brigham Young is brother Joseph’s legal successor. You never heard me say so. I say that I am a good hand to keep the dogs and wolves out of the flock.”

October 7, 1864 (Journal of Discourses 10:339)
“I have never particularly desired any man to testify publicly that I am a Prophet; nevertheless, if any man feels joy, in doing this, he shall be blest in it. I have never said that I am not a Prophet; but, if I am not, one thing is certain, I have been very profitable to this people. In the providence of God he has placed me to take charge of his flock, and they have been abundantly blessed under my administration. I did not desire to be their shepherd; but the great Shepherd of all the sheep placed me in this position.”

[TheDuke]

good question. As said in OT and BoM it was birthright for MP and AP, even the apostle when Jesus came to America was Nephi, son of Nephi, son of Nephi. How did Jesus set it up? cast lots for replacing apostles (doesn't sound like much other than what the Catholics do today). then senior apostles (like James, and James the Just, etc...) take over when the younger die.

As far as I know Joseph felt it would be patriarchal (if the world didn't end by his 85th year), his brother (from oldest to youngest) then his son, etc.... I know of no revelation that goes BY's way, it was convenient for BY and required a bit of reworking rules to get him first. Seems the person that leads isn't necessarily "a prophet" but "The Prophet" or "The President of the church". I guess the theory is that after "casting lots" or picking you as an apostle, like in the Jesus' day it doesn't really matter.

As I have pointed out on many threads, it just never seemed to matter much in the past, oh maybe every 200-300 years a special person was needed, but After Israel/Jacob little more scripture, after Moses, little more scripture, after Jesus death, some scripture but for maybe one generation, then none at all; after Adam, nothing until Enoch, etc... so after Joseph, does it really matter?

Then again, I think the Lord can work with who ever he wishes, any time he wishes. but, the Presidents since JS have mostly just tried to manage things, like in every other dispensation. I suppose if god wants a change, he will make it and it will be well known and easy to see. I don't see "The Prophet" as infallible or special, just his job, I don't worship him (or them) but I don't fear them and it is their job to manage the infrastructure to keep the gospel going, some seem to do better than others.

BTW got a better way? Don't give me that one will get the spirit, come from no where and take control of the church and its resources, that would be chaos and many would contend for it, what a mess it would be.

[KNC]

God chooses his prophets, as we can plainly see from the scriptures. Look up how he called Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, etc. it is done no other way. A prophet is called personally by God. A prophet is not called by man or the people or seniority…..these are counterfeits to the real thing. Please beware of false prophets.

Edit:
Brigham Young admitted several times that he was not a prophet:

August 15, 1844 (Times & Seasons, 5:618)
“You are now without a prophet present with you in the flesh to guide you; but you are not without apostles”

April 7, 1852 (Journal of Discourses 6:320)
“A person was mentioned to-day who did not believe that Brigham Young was a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator. I wish to ask every member of this whole community, if they ever heard him profess to be a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, as Joseph Smith was? Who ordained me to be First President of this Church on earth? I answer, It is the choice of this people, and that is sufficient.” (see Article of Faith #5)

April 6, 1853 (Journal of Discourses 1:136)
“Now will it cause some of you to marvel that I was not ordained a High Priest before I was ordained an Apostle? Brother Kimball and myself were never ordained High Priests. How wonderful! … When a man is ordained to be an Apostle, his Priesthood is without beginning of days, or end of life, like the Priesthood of Melchizedek” (as we covered above, his apostolic charge stated that “your ordination is not full and complete till God has laid His hand upon you.” Scriptures support this in JST Genesis 14:28)

July 26, 1857, (Journal of Discourses 5:72-78)
I am not going to interpret dreams; for I don’t profess to be such a Prophet as were Joseph Smith and Daniel; but I am a Yankee guesser;

June 3, 1860 (Journal of Discourses 8:69)
“The brethren testify that brother Brigham Young is brother Joseph’s legal successor. You never heard me say so. I say that I am a good hand to keep the dogs and wolves out of the flock.”

October 7, 1864 (Journal of Discourses 10:339)
“I have never particularly desired any man to testify publicly that I am a Prophet; nevertheless, if any man feels joy, in doing this, he shall be blest in it. I have never said that I am not a Prophet; but, if I am not, one thing is certain, I have been very profitable to this people. In the providence of God he has placed me to take charge of his flock, and they have been abundantly blessed under my administration. I did not desire to be their shepherd; but the great Shepherd of all the sheep placed me in this position.”

I should have specified: “does God choose the latter day prophets?” I agree that in scripture, they were chosen by Him clearly which is what makes me question the system in place currently.

[dewajack]

Hey Duke, Kinda like a group men with knives mad at someone coming into a dilapidated barn?

[Mamabear]

God chooses his prophets, as we can plainly see from the scriptures. Look up how he called Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, etc. it is done no other way. A prophet is called personally by God. A prophet is not called by man or the people or seniority…..these are counterfeits to the real thing. Please beware of false prophets.

Edit:
Brigham Young admitted several times that he was not a prophet:

August 15, 1844 (Times & Seasons, 5:618)
“You are now without a prophet present with you in the flesh to guide you; but you are not without apostles”

April 7, 1852 (Journal of Discourses 6:320)
“A person was mentioned to-day who did not believe that Brigham Young was a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator. I wish to ask every member of this whole community, if they ever heard him profess to be a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, as Joseph Smith was? Who ordained me to be First President of this Church on earth? I answer, It is the choice of this people, and that is sufficient.” (see Article of Faith #5)

April 6, 1853 (Journal of Discourses 1:136)
“Now will it cause some of you to marvel that I was not ordained a High Priest before I was ordained an Apostle? Brother Kimball and myself were never ordained High Priests. How wonderful! … When a man is ordained to be an Apostle, his Priesthood is without beginning of days, or end of life, like the Priesthood of Melchizedek” (as we covered above, his apostolic charge stated that “your ordination is not full and complete till God has laid His hand upon you.” Scriptures support this in JST Genesis 14:28)

July 26, 1857, (Journal of Discourses 5:72-78)
I am not going to interpret dreams; for I don’t profess to be such a Prophet as were Joseph Smith and Daniel; but I am a Yankee guesser;

June 3, 1860 (Journal of Discourses 8:69)
“The brethren testify that brother Brigham Young is brother Joseph’s legal successor. You never heard me say so. I say that I am a good hand to keep the dogs and wolves out of the flock.”

October 7, 1864 (Journal of Discourses 10:339)
“I have never particularly desired any man to testify publicly that I am a Prophet; nevertheless, if any man feels joy, in doing this, he shall be blest in it. I have never said that I am not a Prophet; but, if I am not, one thing is certain, I have been very profitable to this people. In the providence of God he has placed me to take charge of his flock, and they have been abundantly blessed under my administration. I did not desire to be their shepherd; but the great Shepherd of all the sheep placed me in this position.”

I should have specified: “does God choose the latter day prophets?” I agree that in scripture, they were chosen by Him clearly which is what makes me question the system in place currently.

Welcome to the forum.
Personally, I don’t believe so. They have specified that they have not heard or seen God.
We can also know that they aren’t by their lack of fruit and by our own personal revelation.

[Serragon]

The modern church conflates two different ideas, and bounces between those two ideas as needed even though it is sometimes contradictory.

The first is that the president of the church is selected via seniority. The only influence God has on this process appears to be whether He decides to keep someone alive. This person has all authority to run the church organization.

The second is that God continues to call prophets. There is no official method outlined anywhere of how prophets are called. The only evidence for a method I have seen is a vague statement in D&C that seems to refer to Joseph specifically and not the church in general. It seems that it can be anyone who has sufficient faith and is chosen by God.

The conflation occurs because idea #2 is extremely frightening for those who hold leadership positions in the church. So they have moved idea #2 to be under the umbrella of #1. If you are the president of the church, you now automatically become a prophet as well.

It is this conflation that causes most of the contention on this issue. Many blame those who notice the conflation and call it out as being the root of the problem, as believing that church leaders could be incorrect in a doctrine such as this would shake their very foundations. But the reality is that, like most contentions in the church, the root cause is that our leaders are not operating according to the principles laid out in the scriptures or by Joseph.

[Gadianton Slayer]

We can also know that they aren’t by their lack of fruit and by our own personal revelation.

Oh there’s fruit alright.

[BeNotDeceived]

Only one church has shown multiple miracles since the turn of the century.

[BeNotDeceived]

Only in the sense that God has not struck down these men when they were younger.

That's not saying much.