For those that wonder what happened to the church

[Mamabear]

This is a great resource for this question. The man in the video only uses scriptures, journal entries and a very detailed timeline of the 1830s and 40s to explain what happened.
From the website:

“The scriptures speak about the redemption of Zion in the last days. To prepare us to understand that subject, we should probably first ask “why would Zion need redemption?” Can something be redeemed that never fell? Can God restore something that was never lost or tarnished? Are we able to establish Zion if we’re already living in it, or believe that “all is well in Zion” already?”

https://doctrineofchrist.com/how-when-w ... -condemned

Edited several times because the link wasn’t working right.

[LostCreekAcres]

We've been reading/watching their stuff for a couple of weeks now. I just haven't been able to figure out what their end-game is though. They don't seem to be encouraging folks to leave the church - I believe they attend. I don't know if they are suggesting not to pay tithing, etc. I just don't quite have my finger on it yet.

[The Red Pill]

This is a great resource for this question. The man in the video only uses scriptures, journal entries and a very detailed timeline of the 1830s and 40s to explain what happened.
From the website:

“The scriptures speak about the redemption of Zion in the last days. To prepare us to understand that subject, we should probably first ask “why would Zion need redemption?” Can something be redeemed that never fell? Can God restore something that was never lost or tarnished? Are we able to establish Zion if we’re already living in it, or believe that “all is well in Zion” already?”

https://doctrineofchrist.com/how-when-w ... -condemned

Edited several times because the link wasn’t working right.

If the entire church was under condemnation when president Benson was speaking out AGAINST the UN...can you imagine the level of condemnation now...that they have partnered, donate and on board the 2030 agenda????

Ether 8 comes to mind here...

[Mamabear]

We've been reading/watching their stuff for a couple of weeks now. I just haven't been able to figure out what their end-game is though. They don't seem to be encouraging folks to leave the church - I believe they attend. I don't know if they are suggesting not to pay tithing, etc. I just don't quite have my finger on it yet.

I think they only want to present information and facts, not tell people what to do. We have enough of that going on. We can look at the evidence and decide for ourselves the course we want to take.

[BuriedTartaria]

I wonder but I think I know what happened. Everyone, all groups had tenuous claims to authority after Joseph died. I can’t take anyone seriously who uses titles of prophet, seer and revelator without clear examples of those gifts. I think Joseph was those things. I don’t think anyone else was. I can see room for argument for Brigham among his fans and that Mormon Branch that has the “Elijah Message” revelations but I don’t share their views on Brigham, I’m still investigating the Elijah message

I think 3 Nephi is where we should look if we want to understand what is next for the Book of Mormon and the work God is using it in. I think the clear and consistent warnings from God and declarations of their sins in Doctrine and Covenants Revelations shows that God had been working through Joseph and that body of believers, but those believers, through their decisions, passed the heavenly gift

Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings, and contentions, and envyings, and strifes, and lustful and covetous desires among them; therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances.

They were slow to hearken unto the voice of the Lord their God; therefore, the Lord their God is slow to hearken unto their prayers, to answer them in the day of their trouble.

In the day of their peace they esteemed lightly my counsel; but, in the day of their trouble, of necessity they feel after me.

------------------------

For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.......

........But I command you, all ye my saints, to build a house unto me; and I grant unto you a sufficient time to build a house unto me; and during this time your baptisms shall be acceptable unto me.

But behold, at the end of this appointment your baptisms for your dead shall not be acceptable unto me; and if you do not these things at the end of the appointment ye shall be rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the Lord your God.......


.......And the iniquity and transgression of my holy laws and commandments I will visit upon the heads of THOSE WHO HINDERED MY WORK, unto the third and fourth generation, so long as they repent not, and hate me, saith the Lord God.



Funny how a movement built off revelation, seering, ancient scripture warning of a constant cycle of apostasy (even Christ's millennial reign will experience an apostasy) leading to the end of the world, condemning polygamy (the Lamanite remnant was spared because of why? Turn to Jacob, it's all there black and white, clear as crystal and the importance of the spared Lamanite remnant and Zion society is reaffirmed in 3 Nephi, you lose, you get NOTHING. Good day, sir!), warning the United States, condemning obsession with expensive buildings became attached to an organization devoid of revelation, devoid of seering, teaches that apostasy can’t happen anymore, is pro-polygamy, is anti United States, and obsessed with creating expensive buildings while neglecting the poor

[Mamabear]

I wonder but I think I know what happened. Everyone, all groups had tenuous claims to authority after Joseph died. I can’t take anyone seriously who uses titles of prophet, seer and revelator without clear examples of those gifts. I think Joseph was those things. I don’t think anyone else was. I can see room for argument for Brigham among his fans and that Mormon Branch that has the “Elijah Message” revelations but I don’t share their views on Brigham, I’m still investigating the Elijah message

I think 3 Nephi is where we should look if we want to understand what is next for the Book of Mormon and the work God is using it in. I think the clear and consistent warnings from God and declarations of their sins in Doctrine and Covenants Revelations shows that God had been working through Joseph and that body of believers, but those believers, through their decisions, passed the heavenly gift


Funny how a movement built off revelation, seering, ancient scripture warning of a constancy cycle of apostasy leading to the end of the world, condemning polygamy (the Lamanite remnant was spared because of why? Turn to Jacob), warning the United States, condemning obsession with expensive buildings became attached to an organization devoid of revelation, devoid of seering, teaches that apostasy can’t happen anymore, is pro-polygamy, is anti United States, and obsessed with creating expensive buildings while neglecting the poor

I agree. I think we don’t have the whole picture of the Elijah message. It’s been muddled from what the scriptures say and what Joseph said. From the things I’ve read I believe Elijah will come to the directly to the remnant to restore the covenants. This may begin at the 144k gathering.
These covenants of the fathers and the children have nothing to to do with our earthly fathers, they are referring to the fathers of the covenant (Abraham, Enoch, Noah, Adam, etc). We are the children that were promised to them.

[BroJones]

I wonder but I think I know what happened. Everyone, all groups had tenuous claims to authority after Joseph died. I can’t take anyone seriously who uses titles of prophet, seer and revelator without clear examples of those gifts. I think Joseph was those things. I don’t think anyone else was. I can see room for argument for Brigham among his fans and that Mormon Branch that has the “Elijah Message” revelations but I don’t share their views on Brigham, I’m still investigating the Elijah message

I think 3 Nephi is where we should look if we want to understand what is next for the Book of Mormon and the work God is using it in. I think the clear and consistent warnings from God and declarations of their sins in Doctrine and Covenants Revelations shows that God had been working through Joseph and that body of believers, but those believers, through their decisions, passed the heavenly gift


Funny how a movement built off revelation, seering, ancient scripture warning of a constancy cycle of apostasy leading to the end of the world, condemning polygamy (the Lamanite remnant was spared because of why? Turn to Jacob), warning the United States, condemning obsession with expensive buildings became attached to an organization devoid of revelation, devoid of seering, teaches that apostasy can’t happen anymore, is pro-polygamy, is anti United States, and obsessed with creating expensive buildings while neglecting the poor

I agree. I think we don’t have the whole picture of the Elijah message. It’s been muddled from what the scriptures say and what Joseph said. From the things I’ve read I believe Elijah will come to the directly to the remnant to restore the covenants. This may begin at the 144k gathering.
These covenants of the fathers and the children have nothing to to do with our earthly fathers, they are referring to the fathers of the covenant (Abraham, Enoch, Noah, Adam, etc). We are the children that were promised to them.

Wait, are you saying you don't believe that Elijah already came to Joseph Smith in the Kirtland Temple and gave keys to Joseph -- D&C 110?

[Mamabear]

I wonder but I think I know what happened. Everyone, all groups had tenuous claims to authority after Joseph died. I can’t take anyone seriously who uses titles of prophet, seer and revelator without clear examples of those gifts. I think Joseph was those things. I don’t think anyone else was. I can see room for argument for Brigham among his fans and that Mormon Branch that has the “Elijah Message” revelations but I don’t share their views on Brigham, I’m still investigating the Elijah message

I think 3 Nephi is where we should look if we want to understand what is next for the Book of Mormon and the work God is using it in. I think the clear and consistent warnings from God and declarations of their sins in Doctrine and Covenants Revelations shows that God had been working through Joseph and that body of believers, but those believers, through their decisions, passed the heavenly gift


Funny how a movement built off revelation, seering, ancient scripture warning of a constancy cycle of apostasy leading to the end of the world, condemning polygamy (the Lamanite remnant was spared because of why? Turn to Jacob), warning the United States, condemning obsession with expensive buildings became attached to an organization devoid of revelation, devoid of seering, teaches that apostasy can’t happen anymore, is pro-polygamy, is anti United States, and obsessed with creating expensive buildings while neglecting the poor

I agree. I think we don’t have the whole picture of the Elijah message. It’s been muddled from what the scriptures say and what Joseph said. From the things I’ve read I believe Elijah will come to the directly to the remnant to restore the covenants. This may begin at the 144k gathering.
These covenants of the fathers and the children have nothing to to do with our earthly fathers, they are referring to the fathers of the covenant (Abraham, Enoch, Noah, Adam, etc). We are the children that were promised to them.

Wait, are you saying you don't believe that Elijah already came to Joseph Smith in the Kirtland Temple and gave keys to Joseph -- D&C 110?

I’m not disputing that. However, I have made this topic a focus of my study using the scriptures as well as the Joseph smith papers. Joseph clearly explains several years after that happened, that Elijah will also come in the future during/after the tribulations. It is my belief from the things I’ve read and prayed over, that Elijah’s coming will have everything to do with the fathers and the promised children who are the heir of the covenants and not our earthly fathers.
I also believe that people cannot be sealed (to our posterity and ancestors) by man until we have been received our calling and election and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise.

[Mamabear]

I wonder but I think I know what happened. Everyone, all groups had tenuous claims to authority after Joseph died. I can’t take anyone seriously who uses titles of prophet, seer and revelator without clear examples of those gifts. I think Joseph was those things. I don’t think anyone else was. I can see room for argument for Brigham among his fans and that Mormon Branch that has the “Elijah Message” revelations but I don’t share their views on Brigham, I’m still investigating the Elijah message

I think 3 Nephi is where we should look if we want to understand what is next for the Book of Mormon and the work God is using it in. I think the clear and consistent warnings from God and declarations of their sins in Doctrine and Covenants Revelations shows that God had been working through Joseph and that body of believers, but those believers, through their decisions, passed the heavenly gift


Funny how a movement built off revelation, seering, ancient scripture warning of a constancy cycle of apostasy leading to the end of the world, condemning polygamy (the Lamanite remnant was spared because of why? Turn to Jacob), warning the United States, condemning obsession with expensive buildings became attached to an organization devoid of revelation, devoid of seering, teaches that apostasy can’t happen anymore, is pro-polygamy, is anti United States, and obsessed with creating expensive buildings while neglecting the poor

I agree. I think we don’t have the whole picture of the Elijah message. It’s been muddled from what the scriptures say and what Joseph said. From the things I’ve read I believe Elijah will come to the directly to the remnant to restore the covenants. This may begin at the 144k gathering.
These covenants of the fathers and the children have nothing to to do with our earthly fathers, they are referring to the fathers of the covenant (Abraham, Enoch, Noah, Adam, etc). We are the children that were promised to them.

Wait, are you saying you don't believe that Elijah already came to Joseph Smith in the Kirtland Temple and gave keys to Joseph -- D&C 110?

Here is what Joseph said:

“That which hath been hid from before the foundation of the world is revealed to babes and sucklings in the last days.
The World is reserved unto burning in the last days. He shall send Elijah the prophet and he shall reveal the covenants of the fathers in relation to the children, and the covenants of the children in relation to the fathers.
Four destroying angels holding power over the four quarters of the earth, until the servants of God are sealed in their foreheads which signifies sealing the blessing upon their heads meaning the everlasting covenant, thereby making their calling and election sure. When a seal is put upon the father and mother it secures their posterity so that they cannot be lost but will be saved by virtue of the covenant of their father and mother.
What is the full extend of that seal? Shall I tell you? No. Doctrine <​of​> Election— Sealing of the servants of our God on the top of their heads— ’tis not the cross, as the Catholics would have it. Doctrine of Election to Abraham was in the relation to the seed. A man wishes to be embraced in the covenant of Abraham. A man Judge Higbee in the world of spirits is sealed unto the throne, and doctrine of election
sealing the fathers and children together.”

We also learn here that the new and everlasting covenant is the sealing of God in our foreheads or our calling and election.