I like Brigham Young... there, I said it.

[larsenb]

Two things for you to look forward to.

Your response is telling

My old bishop also told me that I have no life experience.

Old bishops seem to think alike.

Great minds think alike.

So do morons.

Name calling, the final argument of youth?

[Gadianton Slayer]

It's called wisdom.
It comes with age.
Something for you to look forward to.

Age ≠ wisdom.

Wisdom comes with experience, not age.

Not quite. The two are directly correlated.

It’s no standard. The correlation between wisdom and experience is much more accurate than age.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Your response is telling

My old bishop also told me that I have no life experience.

Old bishops seem to think alike.

Great minds think alike.

So do morons.

Name calling, the final argument of youth?

Meeting him at his level. I will never tell someone that they have no experience.

His response is moronic.

[Robin Hood]

Two things for you to look forward to.

Your response is telling

My old bishop also told me that I have no life experience.

Old bishops seem to think alike.

Great minds think alike.

So do morons.

Clearly speaking from experience.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Your response is telling

My old bishop also told me that I have no life experience.

Old bishops seem to think alike.

Great minds think alike.

So do morons.

Clearly speaking from experience.

I thought that was something I'm looking forward to?

[Robin Hood]

Great minds think alike.

So do morons.

Clearly speaking from experience.

I thought that was something I'm looking forward to?

Excellent.
You're catching on.

[larsenb]

It's called wisdom.
It comes with age.
Something for you to look forward to.

Age ≠ wisdom.

Wisdom comes with experience, not age.

Not quite. The two are directly correlated.

It’s no standard. The correlation between wisdom and experience is much more accurate than age.

The acquisition of experience is time-linear for anyone accruing experience. That doesn't mean everyone traveling down the time line of their life, accrues the same experience or quantity and quality of experience.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Age ≠ wisdom.

Wisdom comes with experience, not age.

Not quite. The two are directly correlated.

It’s no standard. The correlation between wisdom and experience is much more accurate than age.

The acquisition of experience is time-linear for anyone accruing experience. That doesn't mean everyone traveling down the time line of their life, accrues the same experience or quantity and quality of experience.

Exactly... it is the acquisition of experience and not the passage of time.

There are young people with much wisdom, old folks with none.

To say that being older is synonymous with wisdom is ridiculous. Just a way for said old folks to claim supposed superiority.

[simpleton]

It seems to be in vogue at present to express disquiet or even profound dislike of Brother Brigham. Whether considering his missionary activities amongst the Cochranites, his championing the cause of the Twelve, his election to leadership of the church, his marital endeavours, his doctrines, his reformation rhetoric, his financial acumen, his freemasonry, his so-called racism, his general indifference... and so on.
And yet, despite all of this, I can't help but like him.
There's just something about him.

Some years ago I read Nibley's excellent book Brother Brigham Challenges The Saints. I thought it was a very informative read. In his day Brigham stretched the Saints and made it possible for them to thoroughly dislike him if they were disposed so to do. He challenged them in many respects and courted controversy throughout his tenure as president of the church.
It seems nothing changes, and to this day Brigham continues to challenge the Saints, often in different, 21st century ways.

Context is always important.

Compared to our current leaders, Brigham seems like an alien from outer space. But compared to Father Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, he seems to fit right in.

Now this is the nail on the head. Because that is actually where BY is now, with those three grand patriarchs.

[simpleton]

Brigham Young
False prophets and prophecies.

quote

Brigham Young Was a False Prophet

ByStephen Bedard
June 12, 2012

That is rather harsh isn’t it? However, saying that Brigham Young was a false prophet is more than just anti-Mormon bias. What is the test of a prophet?

“But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.” You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?” If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.” (Deuteronomy 18:20–22 NIV)

It is pretty simple, if a prophet prophesies something and they are wrong, they are a false prophet. However, we need something more precise than just a claim that Mormonism is wrong and the result of false prophecy. Here is a specific claim:

“Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a sin of blackness? It comes in consequence of their fathers rejecting the power of the Holy Priesthood, and the law of God.
They will go down to death. And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the Holy Priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which we now are entitled to. The volition of the creature is free; this is a law of their existence, and the Lord cannot violate his own law; were he to do that, he would cease to be God” (Brigham Young, August 19, 1866, Journal of Discourses11:272).

Brigham Young makes it very clear that blacks cannot receive the priesthood until everyone else has received it.
Since LDS still ordain people to the priesthood, presumably that time has not yet come.
And yet this is what happened in 1978:

June 8, 1978

To all general and local priesthood officers of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints throughout the world:

Dear Brethren:

As we have witnessed the expansion of the work of the Lord over the earth, we have been grateful that people of many nations have responded to the message of the restored gospel, and have joined the Church in ever-increasing numbers. This, in turn, has inspired us with a desire to extend to every worthy member of the Church all of the privileges and blessings which the gospel affords.

Aware of the promises made by the prophets and presidents of the Church who have preceded us that at some time, in God’s eternal plan, all of our brethren who are worthy may receive the priesthood, and witnessing the faithfulness of those from whom the priesthood has been withheld, we have pleaded long and earnestly in behalf of these, our faithful brethren, spending many hours in the Upper Room of the Temple supplicating the Lord for divine guidance.

He has heard our prayers, and by revelation has confirmed that the long-promised day has come when every faithful, worthy man in the Church may receive the holy priesthood, with power to exercise its divine authority, and enjoy with his loved ones every blessing that flows therefrom, including the blessings of the temple.

This declaration opened up the priesthood to all Mormons, regardless of race.
This leaves us with two options: Brigham Young was mistaken or God was mistaken.
If Brigham Young was wrong in this, he can only be understood as a false prophet.

Why only two options, how about a third... that SWK was full of BS... As God never gave no revelation to him about the cananites...BY was right and still is.

[TheDuke]

Gad: provide the list of you're life long experiences, so we can share. We can skip the pre-adult times. i.e. before graduating HS. Please list the rest for us to see what you're referring to. While I agree you can age w/o wisdom, you cannot gain wisdom without aging to some degree. Experiences like getting pissed, about Covid, etc... don't count much. I'll await the list. BTW I have already provided some of my experiences, which are diverse. It would only be hubris to tell me I didn't learn from them.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Please list the rest for us to see what you're referring to.

Why? What good would it do? Shall we compare some other sizes while we’re at it? The fact that you responded in the way that you have is only proving my point about some older folks believing that their age gives them a supposed sense of superiority.

No matter what your opinions are, age is not directly correlated to wisdom. Those who have lived longer are not automatically more wise than those who haven’t.

There is another factor, too: Experience does not produce wisdom unless you learn from it. Everyone has unique experiences every single day, the wise are those who know what to do with them.

That’s not a jab at you, btw. I never said that you haven’t learned from it, or that you are not wise. My personal opinions about people on this forum will largely stay in the dark.

[Gadianton Slayer]

I’d bet a pretty penny that the only ones who are upset at my posts here are in that older age group. Go figure.

[TheDuke]

I don't feel superior, again you just attack, there is no spirit of god in what you say. The spirit reasons it doesn't attack. You attack because you know you have weak standing but feel it is right (or hope so). You don't have any experiences, part of a mission and a couple of years hanging out in Utah during covid, maybe a couple years of college? Not putting it down but "come on man" go ahead claim to be smart, claim to be insightful, claim the spirit, but claiming experience, well........................................ that takes experience. So, put down those older, blame them for where the world is, make age discrimination claims, but history does not support your statements and your RUSH to accuse, hurt, place blame, destroy what is build as it isn't perfect, is exactly what the liberal left is asking for your position is call "progressive", same as AOC, Joe Biden, etc.... Can you not see? Truly are you so angry that you cannot even see?

[Gadianton Slayer]

I don't feel superior, again you just attack, there is no spirit of god in what you say. The spirit reasons it doesn't attack. You attack because you know you have weak standing but feel it is right (or hope so). You don't have any experiences, part of a mission and a couple of years hanging out in Utah during covid, maybe a couple years of college? Not putting it down but "come on man" go ahead claim to be smart, claim to be insightful, claim the spirit, but claiming experience, well........................................ that takes experience. So, put down those older, blame them for where the world is, make age discrimination claims, but history does not support your statements and your RUSH to accuse, hurt, place blame, destroy what is build as it isn't perfect, is exactly what the liberal left is asking for your position is call "progressive", same as AOC, Joe Biden, etc.... Can you not see? Truly are you so angry that you cannot even see?

Lmao. Thank you for proving my point.

[Gadianton Slayer]

All I say is that age does not correlate to wisdom and you throw this tantrum, claiming that I have no experience.

Enough said I guess.

I never brought personal experience into this, just made a very basic statement. The rest was on you buddy.

[TheDuke]

Again, thanks for engaging in a legitimate conversation and not calling names or making extreme claims w/o providing evidence.

If this is how things are going then I will again say the BoM foretold it when Mormon said all the the Nephites, like the Lamanites were beyond feeling and reasoning, only the OLDER soldiers like him and Moroni could even see it, it was just second nature to the younger warriors.

also, not true you told Robin about your experience and started by putting down, I just came in late.

BTW I dont' care, I believe in MMP, maybe in the next life you'll accept the gospel in its imperfect form.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Again, thanks for engaging in a legitimate conversation and not calling names or making extreme claims w/o providing evidence.

“Age ≠ wisdom” is an extreme claim?

I think I’ve stabbed a sacred cow of yours.

[Gadianton Slayer]

also, not true you told Robin about your experience and started by putting down, I just came in late.

False equivalency. I told RH that he sounded like my bishop, not that I had some significant experience or hold any wisdom.

He began this whole put-down session by saying that I have yet to find experience.

[TheDuke]

Not really, as I said I don't care. But, what I do care about is seeing people seek to destroy everything around them because it isn't in their own image. It is the left, has been for years, now it is the right, tearing down everything to remake it in their image, but they don't have an image of good, only the evil. This BY thread brings that out. Statements like BY was EVIL and BY kept millions from learning about BoM, etc.... their is no basis for such discussions. Robinhood made some points and the response is hate mail. That is what I'm against. Hell I'll have an open discussion on any topic even with Bernie, but I cannot have it with those who write hate mail or are always negative and tearing down. There is no give-and-take, no learning, nothing. that is my sacred cow and it doesn't even give good milk.

no you talked about "old bishops". not your bishop.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Not really, as I said I don't care. But, what I do care about is seeing people seek to destroy everything around them because it isn't in their own image. It is the left, has been for years, now it is the right, tearing down everything to remake it in their image, but they don't have an image of good, only the evil. This BY thread brings that out. Statements like BY was EVIL and BY kept millions from learning about BoM, etc.... their is no basis for such discussions. Robinhood made some points and the response is hate mail. That is what I'm against. Hell I'll have an open discussion on any topic even with Bernie, but I cannot have it with those who write hate mail or are always negative and tearing down. There is no give-and-take, no learning, nothing. that is my sacred cow and it doesn't even give good milk.

no you talked about "old bishops". not your bishop.

Nothing I’ve said relates to the OP. Just RH’s claim which I first responded to.

Yes, my old bishop and RH made the same statement about me, which I find hilarious.

[CuriousThinker]

I can only imagine all those who said Joseph was too young to have wisdom. Same thing with David. Wisdom comes from the application of truth in righteousness. Yes, it can come with age, but that is not the only way. I am 45. Not very old, not very young. I definitely think I have gained more wisdom throughout my life, but that doesn't mean that I was without wisdom when I was young.

[TheDuke]

Joseph didn't have much wisdom, at first, that is why he failed at most everything he did, until he did it several times (NY, OH, MO, IL), except for the things which were gifts to him, translation and revelation. Even then he relied on those around him for most wisdom when he was younger (at first Alvin for example). Unfortunately he occasionally relied on an unreliable person (Bennett for example). It wasn't his age that gave him his wisdom it was his successes and mostly his failures. He had the trait of forgetting and moving on but improving along the way (like a good QB after an interception).

[Gadianton Slayer]

Another good example:

And Moroni took all the command, and the government of their wars. And he was only twenty and five years old when he was appointed chief captain over the armies of the Nephites. (Alma 43:17)

[Reluctant Watchman]

I know several young people on the forum who lack tolerance for the bullcrap the church is peddling. Many of you older folk wash it down with a big gulp of indifference.