I like Brigham Young... there, I said it.

[Robin Hood]

What about Ted Bundy or any number of vicious serial killers? How close to them?

If some of the SRA reports are true, modern leaders put these guys to shame.

They're not true.
These are old men.

Blinders again.

See, this is your problem. You will believe anything bad said about the church leadership because that fits your agenda... anything. And you say I'm wearing blinders!
I believe the church leadership have made some serious errors, but that doesn't mean they're guilty of all errors. I believe the restoration has been running out of steam for quite a long time, but that doesn't mean there is no steam at all.
You seem to have fallen into the trap where you will accept almost any gainsaying if it places the church, and especially the brethren, in poor light.
Remember, we are to be judged by the same standards by which we judge others.
Lighten up a bit mate. Would you want to be judged guilty of everything you've been accused of?

[Reluctant Watchman]

If some of the SRA reports are true, modern leaders put these guys to shame.

They're not true.
These are old men.

Blinders again.

See, this is your problem. You will believe anything bad said about the church leadership because that fits your agenda... anything. And you say I'm wearing blinders!
I believe the church leadership have made some serious errors, but that doesn't mean they're guilty of all errors. I believe the restoration has been running out of steam for quite a long time, but that doesn't mean there is no steam at all.
You seem to have fallen into the trap where you will accept almost any gainsaying if it places the church, and especially the brethren, in poor light.
Remember, we are to be judged by the same standards by which we judge others.
Lighten up a bit mate. Would you want to be judged guilty of everything you've been accused of?

No, I don't believe everything bad about them. I'll take anything good they say. Problem is they are saying a helluva lot that is damning and literally anti-Christian.

You cannot just pass over the SRA accusations. Read the MK-ultra thread, then start to make the associations. Many of these church leaders are not innocent. Secret societies are just that, secret, of course there will be little evidence.

And yes, we can and should make righteous judgment. These accusations are serious and deserve scrutiny. For most members, they simply think because the claims are so outstanding that they simply cannot be true. You repeatedly dismiss these issues.

[mcusick]

I like so very wicked people. In fact, I love some.

Never met this Brigham fellow. Maybe I'd like or even love him too.

[Robin Hood]

They're not true.
These are old men.

Blinders again.

See, this is your problem. You will believe anything bad said about the church leadership because that fits your agenda... anything. And you say I'm wearing blinders!
I believe the church leadership have made some serious errors, but that doesn't mean they're guilty of all errors. I believe the restoration has been running out of steam for quite a long time, but that doesn't mean there is no steam at all.
You seem to have fallen into the trap where you will accept almost any gainsaying if it places the church, and especially the brethren, in poor light.
Remember, we are to be judged by the same standards by which we judge others.
Lighten up a bit mate. Would you want to be judged guilty of everything you've been accused of?

No, I don't believe everything bad about them. I'll take anything good they say. Problem is they are saying a helluva lot that is damning and literally anti-Christian.

You cannot just pass over the SRA accusations. Read the MK-ultra thread, then start to make the associations. Many of these church leaders are not innocent. Secret societies are just that, secret, of course there will be little evidence.

And yes, we can and should make righteous judgment. These accusations are serious and deserve scrutiny. For most members, they simply think because the claims are so outstanding that they simply cannot be true. You repeatedly dismiss these issues.

I don't dismiss them frivalously. I have considered them but have never come across any evidence that withstands scrutiny. None.
For example, you mention MK-Ultra. I read Trance-formation America by Cathy O'Brien many years ago, well before so many jumped on the bandwagon. Her story was interesting and convincing. She implicated Mormon church leaders as well as others. Even describes a shoot out of sorts in the tunnel under the SLC temple.
This is pretty much chronologically the first public accusation of SRA against Mormon church leaders.
I waited. Others came out and described the same things, as they claimed they too were victims.... and they even saw Cathy O'Brien there at the same rituals.
I still waited.
Then, low and behold, it turns out that Cathy O'Brien's testimony is unreliable and has been demonstrated to be untrue in many respects. No serious researchers now consider her a reliable witness, and her currency in conspiracy circles is next to worthless.
Ditto all those who jumped on the bandwagon and said they were there too.

We have a legal principle in this country, which we also gave to you guys - innocent until proved guilty. It's a principle of law based on the Bible.
It seems to me that you and others often invert this biblical principle in order to embrace a lie. It's as if you actually want the accusation to be true.

Maybe I misjudge. I just call it as I see it. You certainly come over as relishing anything that can be interpreted to show the church leaders in a poor light. Like I said, it's as if you really want it to be true, probably because you're looking for some kind of vindication.
You don't need external vindication; you're an intelligent man. You only need to be true to your own convictions. Don't be tossed to and fro by every wind of accusatory rumour and titilating gossip. Men of God don't need to do this.

[Mindfields]

No person is completely bad. Brigham Young came damn close.

Really?
Compared to Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Franco, Mussolini etc.... how close?
What about Ted Bundy or any number of vicious serial killers? How close to them?

He, Brigham and cronies basically destroyed any chance of the Book of Mormon being accepted as scripture by Christians world wide. His garbage doctrines he claimed came from Joseph Smith, lucky Joseph was dead and unable to defend himself, pretty much squashed any chance of general acceptance of the Book of Mormon. He may not of murdered thousands or millions of people but he did affect the salvation of millions in a very negative way.

[Niemand]

No person is completely bad. Brigham Young came damn close.

Really?
Compared to Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Franco, Mussolini etc.... how close?
What about Ted Bundy or any number of vicious serial killers? How close to them?

He, Brigham and cronies basically destroyed any chance of the Book of Mormon being accepted as scripture by Christians world wide. His garbage doctrines he claimed came from Joseph Smith, lucky Joseph was dead and unable to defend himself, pretty much squashed any chance of general acceptance of the Book of Mormon. He may not of murdered thousands or millions of people but he did affect the salvation of millions in a very negative way.

I don't think that is the case. They could have received the BoM via the RLDS.

I would argue BY is the reason most people have heard of the book. There are many such scriptures around (of varying quality), but only BY created a large movement for bringing knowledge of it to the entire world.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I don't dismiss them frivalously. I have considered them but have never come across any evidence that withstands scrutiny. None.
For example, you mention MK-Ultra. I read Trance-formation America by Cathy O'Brien many years ago, well before so many jumped on the bandwagon. Her story was interesting and convincing. She implicated Mormon church leaders as well as others. Even describes a shoot out of sorts in the tunnel under the SLC temple.
This is pretty much chronologically the first public accusation of SRA against Mormon church leaders.
I waited. Others came out and described the same things, as they claimed they too were victims.... and they even saw Cathy O'Brien there at the same rituals.
I still waited.
Then, low and behold, it turns out that Cathy O'Brien's testimony is unreliable and has been demonstrated to be untrue in many respects. No serious researchers now consider her a reliable witness, and her currency in conspiracy circles is next to worthless.
Ditto all those who jumped on the bandwagon and said they were there too.

We have a legal principle in this country, which we also gave to you guys - innocent until proved guilty. It's a principle of law based on the Bible.
It seems to me that you and others often invert this biblical principle in order to embrace a lie. It's as if you actually want the accusation to be true.

Maybe I misjudge. I just call it as I see it. You certainly come over as relishing anything that can be interpreted to show the church leaders in a poor light. Like I said, it's as if you really want it to be true, probably because you're looking for some kind of vindication.
You don't need external vindication; you're an intelligent man. You only need to be true to your own convictions. Don't be tossed to and fro by every wind of accusatory rumour and titilating gossip. Men of God don't need to do this.

You see what you want to see. I don't agree and that's fine. And, btw, men of God root out evil. If you're looking for "proof", it probably wouldn't measure up to your level of acceptability regardless of what is presented.

Here are a few people to study for those of you who are interested, which obviously doesn't include RH:

Cathy Obrien
Brice Taylor
Kristy Allen
Katina Hagen
Nathan Reynolds
Jessie Czebotar
Ron Karren
Laura Worley
Asia Raine
JR Sweet

[Reluctant Watchman]

No person is completely bad. Brigham Young came damn close.

Really?
Compared to Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Franco, Mussolini etc.... how close?
What about Ted Bundy or any number of vicious serial killers? How close to them?

He, Brigham and cronies basically destroyed any chance of the Book of Mormon being accepted as scripture by Christians world wide. His garbage doctrines he claimed came from Joseph Smith, lucky Joseph was dead and unable to defend himself, pretty much squashed any chance of general acceptance of the Book of Mormon. He may not of murdered thousands or millions of people but he did affect the salvation of millions in a very negative way.

I don't think that is the case. They could have received the BoM via the RLDS.

I would argue BY is the reason most people have heard of the book. There are many such scriptures around (of varying quality), but only BY created a large movement for bringing knowledge of it to the entire world.

Yet how many people have rejected the BoM because of the narrative the church holds to this day? Joseph, according to the church, was an awful liar given what he said in public and supposedly did in private. I'd reject him if he did what the church says he did.

[Robin Hood]

I don't dismiss them frivalously. I have considered them but have never come across any evidence that withstands scrutiny. None.
For example, you mention MK-Ultra. I read Trance-formation America by Cathy O'Brien many years ago, well before so many jumped on the bandwagon. Her story was interesting and convincing. She implicated Mormon church leaders as well as others. Even describes a shoot out of sorts in the tunnel under the SLC temple.
This is pretty much chronologically the first public accusation of SRA against Mormon church leaders.
I waited. Others came out and described the same things, as they claimed they too were victims.... and they even saw Cathy O'Brien there at the same rituals.
I still waited.
Then, low and behold, it turns out that Cathy O'Brien's testimony is unreliable and has been demonstrated to be untrue in many respects. No serious researchers now consider her a reliable witness, and her currency in conspiracy circles is next to worthless.
Ditto all those who jumped on the bandwagon and said they were there too.

We have a legal principle in this country, which we also gave to you guys - innocent until proved guilty. It's a principle of law based on the Bible.
It seems to me that you and others often invert this biblical principle in order to embrace a lie. It's as if you actually want the accusation to be true.

Maybe I misjudge. I just call it as I see it. You certainly come over as relishing anything that can be interpreted to show the church leaders in a poor light. Like I said, it's as if you really want it to be true, probably because you're looking for some kind of vindication.
You don't need external vindication; you're an intelligent man. You only need to be true to your own convictions. Don't be tossed to and fro by every wind of accusatory rumour and titilating gossip. Men of God don't need to do this.

You see what you want to see. I don't agree and that's fine. And, btw, men of God root out evil. If you're looking for "proof", it probably wouldn't measure up to your level of acceptability regardless of what is presented.

Here are a few people to study for those of you who are interested, which obviously doesn't include RH:

Cathy Obrien
Brice Taylor
Kristy Allen
Katina Hagen
Nathan Reynolds
Jessie Czebotar
Ron Karren
Laura Worley
Asia Raine
JR Sweet

The prodigies of Cathy O'Brien.

[Reluctant Watchman]

The prodigies of Cathy O'Brien.

Yes, I guess you were right, age may have to do with a lot of things...

[TheDuke]

I too have dug into the SRA and find no evidence that is credible, ever in any of them. Ditto on the fact that you an answer, hurt feelings, etc.. and are looking for a reason or a question to fit your answer.

[TheDuke]

Mindfields: what is your evidence and logic? Other than your personal anti-BY opinion that is? I see lots of claims here and little facts or even compelling logic based on minimum facts..........

On the other hand, I mean you have all the millions and millions of BoM followers that are not LDS down the non-BY path........... actually perhaps more like BILLIONS...... I'd call that overwhelming evidence, but it doesn't follow your argument, seems to moot it, fully. IMO.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I too have dug into the SRA and find no evidence that is credible, ever in any of them. Ditto on the fact that you an answer, hurt feelings, etc.. and are looking for a reason or a question to fit your answer.

What baloney... Just sayin'

[TheDuke]

what part is baloney? ........... haven't had baloney in years, been with ham or turkey lately.

How much true digging you did? there are many, many threads on here in the past to link to every possible piece of data, court records, etc...

[Reluctant Watchman]

what part is baloney? ........... haven't had baloney in years, been with ham or turkey lately.

How much true digging you did? there are many, many threads on here in the past to link to every possible piece of data, court records, etc...

You older folk never cease to surprise me.

[TheDuke]

So, you are saying you really aren't a baloney guy either?

[Reluctant Watchman]

So, you are saying you really aren't a baloney guy either?

I'm saying you old gents have your minds made up.

[Robin Hood]

So, you are saying you really aren't a baloney guy either?

I'm saying you old gents have your minds made up.

It's called wisdom.
It comes with age.
Something for you to look forward to.

[Reluctant Watchman]

So, you are saying you really aren't a baloney guy either?

I'm saying you old gents have your minds made up.

It's called wisdom.
It comes with age.
Something for you to look forward to.

Haha... sure thing RH.

[Gadianton Slayer]

It's called wisdom.
It comes with age.
Something for you to look forward to.

Age ≠ wisdom.

Wisdom comes with experience, not age.

[Robin Hood]

It's called wisdom.
It comes with age.
Something for you to look forward to.

Age ≠ wisdom.

Wisdom comes with experience, not age.

Two things for you to look forward to.

[Gadianton Slayer]

It's called wisdom.
It comes with age.
Something for you to look forward to.

Age ≠ wisdom.

Wisdom comes with experience, not age.

Two things for you to look forward to.

Your response is telling

My old bishop also told me that I have no life experience.

Old bishops seem to think alike.

[Robin Hood]

It's called wisdom.
It comes with age.
Something for you to look forward to.

Age ≠ wisdom.

Wisdom comes with experience, not age.

Two things for you to look forward to.

Your response is telling

My old bishop also told me that I have no life experience.

Old bishops seem to think alike.

Great minds think alike.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Age ≠ wisdom.

Wisdom comes with experience, not age.

Two things for you to look forward to.

Your response is telling

My old bishop also told me that I have no life experience.

Old bishops seem to think alike.

Great minds think alike.

So do morons.

[larsenb]

It's called wisdom.
It comes with age.
Something for you to look forward to.

Age ≠ wisdom.

Wisdom comes with experience, not age.

Not quite. The two are directly correlated.