I like Brigham Young... there, I said it.

[larsenb]

Joseph didn't have much wisdom, at first, that is why he failed at most everything he did, until he did it several times (NY, OH, MO, IL), except for the things which were gifts to him, translation and revelation. Even then he relied on those around him for most wisdom when he was younger (at first Alvin for example). Unfortunately he occasionally relied on an unreliable person (Bennett for example). It wasn't his age that gave him his wisdom it was his successes and mostly his failures. He had the trait of forgetting and moving on but improving along the way (like a good QB after an interception).

Joseph had a massive amount of experience accrual, both positive and negative, in a short period of time. But it was still along a time-line.

[CuriousThinker]

I think we need to remember too that we can ask the Lord for wisdom and receive it, regardless of age, just as Solomon did. The Lord gave it to him and didn't just tell him to wait till he was older or had more experience.

[TheDuke]

I never said age was a requirement for wisdom. I said experience is required. You can ask the Lord for wisdom and he will give you experiences to get it. You can ask him for knowledge (which is not wisdom) and HG can illuminate your mind immediately. But, I'm not familiar with any teachings that says wisdom can enter your mind, if that was so, we wouldn't need to be in this demented telestial space, would we?

I remember when gad first came on. He mentioned his issues, he had perspective. He wasn't happy. but it wasn't negative and attacking and lacking discussion. And claiming wisdom, just invokes explanation of why should we buy it. And yes there are people of all ages that are TBM (more younger than older frankly through out the church, but not on this forum). I do get pissed when you try to tell me I'm a TBM, just because I would like to explore the discussion. Just like the conversation (or lack thereof) why you feel we are right next to the second coming and Isaiah is talking to us right now in 2022? Seems like a valid question if you're going to throw Isaiah out as the main reason for accusations. I also feel the same way about the timing BTW. But, when I seek (sought actually less than one year ago) an update from the Lord. He made it clear, in this case, that he wouldn't tell me the timing of the second coming and further he isn't telling anyone right now. So, if you've got revelation share it. I'm keen but I've seen many predictions and prophecies on this forum and none have come true. Like I said before, Peter, Paul, JS WW all thought the Lord was coming in their lifetime. They are all great men, but they were all wrong in the end.

[Gadianton Slayer]

I remember when gad first came on. He mentioned his issues, he had perspective. He wasn't happy. but it wasn't negative and attacking and lacking discussion. And claiming wisdom, just invokes explanation of why should we buy it.

What has changed? I match people where they're at. Call me a name, you might get called a name. I don't discuss with people who I don't feel are worth having discussions with. While we are asking for explanations... can you share why you feel I am now lacking discussion? Pick any topic I've addressed that you don't feel has been explained enough. You could also take a gander through my blog:

https://gadiantonslayer.blogspot.com/

I also never claimed wisdom. My statement was very simple: age is not wisdom. Seems you agree with that though.

[TheDuke]

Gad, I called it out last week on another forum, I'm not going to repeat it here. Look it up if your interested. BTW I enjoy having good conversations with you on things. I don't always agree but I'm happy to understand. I don't like personal attacks on me or on others either on the forum or in leadership positions without logic and evidence. I don't believe the spirit of god ever gets negative or puts things down, just keep that in mind in the future. It is easy I guess to see people not agreeing and assume they either don't investigate or are stupid or something (like my ward and masks) but it isn't how the spirit handles it. They tarred JS and he preached to those that tarred him, he didn't call them out a satan worshippers or anything like that.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Gad, I called it out last week on another forum, I'm not going to repeat it here. Look it up if your interested. BTW I enjoy having good conversations with you on things. I don't always agree but I'm happy to understand. I don't like personal attacks on me or on others either on the forum or in leadership positions without logic and evidence. I don't believe the spirit of god ever gets negative or puts things down, just keep that in mind in the future. It is easy I guess to see people not agreeing and assume they either don't investigate or are stupid or something (like my ward and masks) but it isn't how the spirit handles it. They tarred JS and he preached to those that tarred him, he didn't call them out a satan worshippers or anything like that.

Called what out? If you don't quote me, I likely won't see it.

Likewise. The internet is a horrible place to talk, which is partly why I don't get into many lengthy discussions here anymore. I guess I should add a disclaimer to my posts... *if you claim that I have no wisdom or experience because I am young, I may call you a moron.

I think the whole "negative" topic is much more complex. We are commanded to awaken to our awful situation and to do all we can to root out evil where we see it (D&C 123). Prophets of old condemned the people when they were wicked, and Moroni executed those who wouldn't stand up for freedom. I admit that I am nowhere near perfect, but try to mirror my "negativity" with what is taught in scripture by prophets and Christ Himself. Sometimes you've got to flip a table over, and most people aren't going to like it. Saying that the claims are "without logic and evidence" is highly opinion-based, as I've discovered.

[Reluctant Watchman]

They tarred JS and he preached to those that tarred him, he didn't call them out a satan worshippers or anything like that.

Probably because they weren’t Satan worshippers. But today we’re talking about an entirely different kind of evil. There are Satan worshippers out in the open. And, if you take 2 Thess. 2, the prophecy of Satan sitting in the Lord’s house, would make these SRA claims a literal fulfillment of that prophecy.

If you want to say study these things out, then take the time to read JR Sweet’s story in the MK-Ultra thread. It will take you about 20 hours. Then we can talk.

[TheDuke]

Not interested in rehashing the SRA stuff. I spent way too much time at it already at the behest of points on this forum several times over several years. I found no evidence, just peoples fantasies. Even if the fantasies are true (like Sweet's) there is not one shred of evidence. There just isn't, it is the word of a few, and I suppose I can give you that those who dwell on SRA and believe in it have been involved are almost all damaged and they sound a bit crazy as a result. I guess that the issue is are the nuts from being involved or are they nuts and blaming something no one can see or some of each. I'm not saying SRA doesn't exist, or that pedo's don't exist or that Epstein Island and kidnapping young Asian girls doesn't exist. But, come back and talk when you have some evidence that is hard.

Now all that said the question here is on the Q15 (would entertain discussions of 70's) being involved, and other than the fact that RMN's daughter was involved and some powers in Utah seemed to cover it up, there is nothing and that does not show RMN or any LDS leader was involved, at the very, very worst, perhaps covering their children's misteps, but that isn't the same as the claim above.

[Mindfields]

I know several young people on the forum who lack tolerance for the bullcrap the church is peddling. Many of you older folk wash it down with a big gulp of indifference.

Hey now I'm an "older folk". I came to my current understanding through a lot of study. I honestly don't know if Joseph was the instigator of polygamy however I believe there's enough conflicting evidence that he's likely wasn't involved. One thing I do strongly believe is polygamy and adultery are the same thing.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Not interested in rehashing the SRA stuff. I spent way too much time at it already at the behest of points on this forum several times over several years. I found no evidence, just peoples fantasies. Even if the fantasies are true (like Sweet's) there is not one shred of evidence. There just isn't, it is the word of a few, and I suppose I can give you that those who dwell on SRA and believe in it have been involved are almost all damaged and they sound a bit crazy as a result. I guess that the issue is are the nuts from being involved or are they nuts and blaming something no one can see or some of each. I'm not saying SRA doesn't exist, or that pedo's don't exist or that Epstein Island and kidnapping young Asian girls doesn't exist. But, come back and talk when you have some evidence that is hard.

Now all that said the question here is on the Q15 (would entertain discussions of 70's) being involved, and other than the fact that RMN's daughter was involved and some powers in Utah seemed to cover it up, there is nothing and that does not show RMN or any LDS leader was involved, at the very, very worst, perhaps covering their children's misteps, but that isn't the same as the claim above.

Duke, there is evidence. I know two of these people, in particular, have very strange body scars that they cannot explain, other than things that came back to them through memory recollection. i.e. they have scars that relate to specific experiences with SRA.

I do find it funny... so many religious folks will look to the scriptures, which are essentially a collection of journal entries, and we believe them wholeheartedly. Yet when a person shares their journal entries and experiences of SRA they are readily discounted.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I know several young people on the forum who lack tolerance for the bullcrap the church is peddling. Many of you older folk wash it down with a big gulp of indifference.

Hey now I'm an "older folk". I came to my current understanding through a lot of study. I honestly don't know if Joseph was the instigator of polygamy however I believe there's enough conflicting evidence that he's likely wasn't involved. One thing I do strongly believe is polygamy and adultery are the same thing.

That's ok old timer. There is hope.

I'm finding that generational traditions carry a lot of weight. And when you break from LDS tradition, you become an outcast, you lose everything that is important, even your very salvation... at least according to the church.

[thaabit]

Can someone point me to the thread that is talking about Brigham Young and not age, experience, and/or wisdom?

[Niemand]

Can someone point me to the thread that is talking about Brigham Young and not age, experience, and/or wisdom?

Brigham Young


Brigham Old