I like Brigham Young... there, I said it.

[Robin Hood]

It seems to be in vogue at present to express disquiet or even profound dislike of Brother Brigham. Whether considering his missionary activities amongst the Cochranites, his championing the cause of the Twelve, his election to leadership of the church, his marital endeavours, his doctrines, his reformation rhetoric, his financial acumen, his freemasonry, his so-called racism, his general indifference... and so on.
And yet, despite all of this, I can't help but like him.
There's just something about him.

Some years ago I read Nibley's excellent book Brother Brigham Challenges The Saints. I thought it was a very informative read. In his day Brigham stretched the Saints and made it possible for them to thoroughly dislike him if they were disposed so to do. He challenged them in many respects and courted controversy throughout his tenure as president of the church.
It seems nothing changes, and to this day Brigham continues to challenge the Saints, often in different, 21st century ways.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Those blinders must be working quite well.

"Election" to leadership really is a funny way to put that.

Oh, and he stole tithing funds if you consider that financial acumen. And diverting help from the destitute Saints to save his alcohol and tobacco was NBD, really.

[Serragon]

It seems to be in vogue at present to express disquiet or even profound dislike of Brother Brigham. Whether considering his missionary activities amongst the Cochranites, his championing the cause of the Twelve, his election to leadership of the church, his marital endeavours, his doctrines, his reformation rhetoric, his financial acumen, his freemasonry, his so-called racism, his general indifference... and so on.
And yet, despite all of this, I can't help but like him.
There's just something about him.

Some years ago I read Nibley's excellent book Brother Brigham Challenges The Saints. I thought it was a very informative read. In his day Brigham stretched the Saints and made it possible for them to thoroughly dislike him if they were disposed so to do. He challenged them in many respects and courted controversy throughout his tenure as president of the church.
It seems nothing changes, and to this day Brigham continues to challenge the Saints, often in different, 21st century ways.

Context is always important.

Compared to our current leaders, Brigham seems like an alien from outer space. But compared to Father Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, he seems to fit right in.

[Niemand]

I respect his toughness and resilience, and his practicality. But I still think he was wrong about some things.

[Hogmeister]

I have read close to 200 of his sermons. I like him too.

[Robin Hood]

Those blinders must be working quite well.

"Election" to leadership really is a funny way to put that.

Oh, and he stole tithing funds if you consider that financial acumen. And diverting help from the destitute Saints to save his alcohol and tobacco was NBD, really.

He was elected as president of the church, in that he was proposed and voted for in the affirmative at a general conference of the church at Winter Quarters.
It is noteworthy that Joseph was also elected president of the church in this way.

[darknesstolight]

I like Brigham Young too and almost every sermon I've read of his.

...

[JLHPROF]

I have no problems with Brigham. He was prone to a bit of bluster and hyperbole, but he was still the mouthpiece of the Lord in his day.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Those blinders must be working quite well.

"Election" to leadership really is a funny way to put that.

Oh, and he stole tithing funds if you consider that financial acumen. And diverting help from the destitute Saints to save his alcohol and tobacco was NBD, really.

He was elected as president of the church, in that he was proposed and voted for in the affirmative at a general conference of the church at Winter Quarters.
It is noteworthy that Joseph was also elected president of the church in this way.

Yes, but this tends to completely forget the false "transfiguration" event. Where else were the saints to go? Oh, that's right, many of them stayed w/ the Smith family and didn't follow a tyrant.

[Being There]

Brigham Young
False prophets and prophecies.

quote

Brigham Young Was a False Prophet

ByStephen Bedard
June 12, 2012

That is rather harsh isn’t it? However, saying that Brigham Young was a false prophet is more than just anti-Mormon bias. What is the test of a prophet?

“But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.” You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?” If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.” (Deuteronomy 18:20–22 NIV)

It is pretty simple, if a prophet prophesies something and they are wrong, they are a false prophet. However, we need something more precise than just a claim that Mormonism is wrong and the result of false prophecy. Here is a specific claim:

“Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a sin of blackness? It comes in consequence of their fathers rejecting the power of the Holy Priesthood, and the law of God.
They will go down to death. And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the Holy Priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which we now are entitled to. The volition of the creature is free; this is a law of their existence, and the Lord cannot violate his own law; were he to do that, he would cease to be God” (Brigham Young, August 19, 1866, Journal of Discourses11:272).

Brigham Young makes it very clear that blacks cannot receive the priesthood until everyone else has received it.
Since LDS still ordain people to the priesthood, presumably that time has not yet come.
And yet this is what happened in 1978:

June 8, 1978

To all general and local priesthood officers of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints throughout the world:

Dear Brethren:

As we have witnessed the expansion of the work of the Lord over the earth, we have been grateful that people of many nations have responded to the message of the restored gospel, and have joined the Church in ever-increasing numbers. This, in turn, has inspired us with a desire to extend to every worthy member of the Church all of the privileges and blessings which the gospel affords.

Aware of the promises made by the prophets and presidents of the Church who have preceded us that at some time, in God’s eternal plan, all of our brethren who are worthy may receive the priesthood, and witnessing the faithfulness of those from whom the priesthood has been withheld, we have pleaded long and earnestly in behalf of these, our faithful brethren, spending many hours in the Upper Room of the Temple supplicating the Lord for divine guidance.

He has heard our prayers, and by revelation has confirmed that the long-promised day has come when every faithful, worthy man in the Church may receive the holy priesthood, with power to exercise its divine authority, and enjoy with his loved ones every blessing that flows therefrom, including the blessings of the temple.

This declaration opened up the priesthood to all Mormons, regardless of race.
This leaves us with two options: Brigham Young was mistaken or God was mistaken.
If Brigham Young was wrong in this, he can only be understood as a false prophet.

[TheDuke]

He was chosen to lead the effort due to his abilities to lead the Saints west and organize and put into place a system that would grow. He did that very well. Compared to how well Joseph and others did it before, he was exceptional. His doctrine was pretty good but not perfect but I think he honestly tried to accept and teach what he thought Joseph taught, I just don't think he had Joseph's grasp or visions on the subject which allowed errors to creep in. But this is no different than Joshua after Moses or Peter and Paul after Jesus, etc... Seems a constant each time the gospel or key elements of it are restored throughout history.

Perfection is not a requirement of the gospel or the church. Bringing people to a place where they (on their own) can find Jesus, that is the purpose. Those looking for perfection should have held out in the pre-mortal meeting and gone with Satan. He promised perfection, but at a very, very high cost. Jesus promised chaos, good-vs-evil, and testing and growth. Got to pick your side I guess. See the good, work through the mistakes or just kick against the pricks.................. it is up to each of us to choose.

[Luke]

Imperfect man with a heart of gold.

[Mamabear]

Would a true prophet alter church history several times? Or take possession of the journals of Joseph Smith when clearly they were Emma’s?
Listen and look at the evidence and do your own homework and look at the journals.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UaaouTVRNjE

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H5jbcbzd9_4

[TheDuke]

Yes..

would a true prophet cut off a man's head, wear his clothes (all bloody and all), kidnap his servant to get some expensive scriptures?

[darknesstolight]

Imperfect man with a heart of gold.

As long as that's how you see yourself and others then I'll say yes.

...

[sandman45]

It seems to be in vogue at present to express disquiet or even profound dislike of Brother Brigham. Whether considering his missionary activities amongst the Cochranites, his championing the cause of the Twelve, his election to leadership of the church, his marital endeavours, his doctrines, his reformation rhetoric, his financial acumen, his freemasonry, his so-called racism, his general indifference... and so on.
And yet, despite all of this, I can't help but like him.
There's just something about him.

Some years ago I read Nibley's excellent book Brother Brigham Challenges The Saints. I thought it was a very informative read. In his day Brigham stretched the Saints and made it possible for them to thoroughly dislike him if they were disposed so to do. He challenged them in many respects and courted controversy throughout his tenure as president of the church.
It seems nothing changes, and to this day Brigham continues to challenge the Saints, often in different, 21st century ways.

Brigham was a Lion. Wish our current prophet was.. unfortunately he is a sheep.

[sandman45]

Those blinders must be working quite well.

"Election" to leadership really is a funny way to put that.

Oh, and he stole tithing funds if you consider that financial acumen. And diverting help from the destitute Saints to save his alcohol and tobacco was NBD, really.

There’s corruption now. And I would say worse than what Brigham was accused of…

[Robin Hood]

Those blinders must be working quite well.

"Election" to leadership really is a funny way to put that.

Oh, and he stole tithing funds if you consider that financial acumen. And diverting help from the destitute Saints to save his alcohol and tobacco was NBD, really.

He was elected as president of the church, in that he was proposed and voted for in the affirmative at a general conference of the church at Winter Quarters.
It is noteworthy that Joseph was also elected president of the church in this way.

Yes, but this tends to completely forget the false "transfiguration" event. Where else were the saints to go? Oh, that's right, many of them stayed w/ the Smith family and didn't follow a tyrant.

The two are unconnected.

[Robin Hood]

Brigham Young
False prophets and prophecies.

quote

Brigham Young Was a False Prophet

ByStephen Bedard
June 12, 2012

That is rather harsh isn’t it? However, saying that Brigham Young was a false prophet is more than just anti-Mormon bias. What is the test of a prophet?

“But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.” You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?” If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.” (Deuteronomy 18:20–22 NIV)

It is pretty simple, if a prophet prophesies something and they are wrong, they are a false prophet. However, we need something more precise than just a claim that Mormonism is wrong and the result of false prophecy. Here is a specific claim:

“Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a sin of blackness? It comes in consequence of their fathers rejecting the power of the Holy Priesthood, and the law of God.
They will go down to death. And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the Holy Priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which we now are entitled to. The volition of the creature is free; this is a law of their existence, and the Lord cannot violate his own law; were he to do that, he would cease to be God” (Brigham Young, August 19, 1866, Journal of Discourses11:272).

Brigham Young makes it very clear that blacks cannot receive the priesthood until everyone else has received it.
Since LDS still ordain people to the priesthood, presumably that time has not yet come.
And yet this is what happened in 1978:

June 8, 1978

To all general and local priesthood officers of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints throughout the world:

Dear Brethren:

As we have witnessed the expansion of the work of the Lord over the earth, we have been grateful that people of many nations have responded to the message of the restored gospel, and have joined the Church in ever-increasing numbers. This, in turn, has inspired us with a desire to extend to every worthy member of the Church all of the privileges and blessings which the gospel affords.

Aware of the promises made by the prophets and presidents of the Church who have preceded us that at some time, in God’s eternal plan, all of our brethren who are worthy may receive the priesthood, and witnessing the faithfulness of those from whom the priesthood has been withheld, we have pleaded long and earnestly in behalf of these, our faithful brethren, spending many hours in the Upper Room of the Temple supplicating the Lord for divine guidance.

He has heard our prayers, and by revelation has confirmed that the long-promised day has come when every faithful, worthy man in the Church may receive the holy priesthood, with power to exercise its divine authority, and enjoy with his loved ones every blessing that flows therefrom, including the blessings of the temple.

This declaration opened up the priesthood to all Mormons, regardless of race.
This leaves us with two options: Brigham Young was mistaken or God was mistaken.
If Brigham Young was wrong in this, he can only be understood as a false prophet.

I think this charge is false on two counts.
1. It isn't a prophecy.
2. Brigham was president of the church... not necessarily a prophet.

Election to the presidency of the church does not automatically make you a prophet. Brigham was very coy about the label being applied to him, and appeared at times to deny he was a prophet. I personally believe we have only had one prophet to the church, Joseph Smith.

[Robin Hood]

Would a true prophet alter church history several times? Or take possession of the journals of Joseph Smith when clearly they were Emma’s?
Listen and look at the evidence and do your own homework and look at the journals.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UaaouTVRNjE

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H5jbcbzd9_4

There's your problem right there.
You set up a strawman argument about Brigham being a prophet and then point out that he appeared not to behave as such.
But your premise is faulty. He was not a prophet in the mould of Joseph Smith or many of the OT prophets and never claimed to be.
He was the leader of the Saints by virtue of his appointment as president of the church. Being appointed president of the church does not make you a prophet.
In the corporate sense, the church has only had one prophet.

[Dave62]

I respect his toughness and resilience, and his practicality. But I still think he was wrong about some things.

Yep, even prophets get it wrong from time to time. But Brigham had balls. Kinda wish he was around today.

[Niemand]

I respect his toughness and resilience, and his practicality. But I still think he was wrong about some things.

Yep, even prophets get it wrong from time to time. But Brigham had balls. Kinda wish he was around today.

I'd take him with his faults over what we have today. I think his policies on blacks were as much politically driven as the "godsend" statements today.

Neither Brigham Young nor Joseph Smith would go anywhere in today's church. That much is obvious. Both were too young to become president by today's standards.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Those blinders must be working quite well.

"Election" to leadership really is a funny way to put that.

Oh, and he stole tithing funds if you consider that financial acumen. And diverting help from the destitute Saints to save his alcohol and tobacco was NBD, really.

There’s corruption now. And I would say worse than what Brigham was accused of…

From what I've read and felt, things are far more evil than what Brigham was involved with.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Those blinders must be working quite well.

"Election" to leadership really is a funny way to put that.

Oh, and he stole tithing funds if you consider that financial acumen. And diverting help from the destitute Saints to save his alcohol and tobacco was NBD, really.

He was elected as president of the church, in that he was proposed and voted for in the affirmative at a general conference of the church at Winter Quarters.
It is noteworthy that Joseph was also elected president of the church in this way.

Yes, but this tends to completely forget the false "transfiguration" event. Where else were the saints to go? Oh, that's right, many of them stayed w/ the Smith family and didn't follow a tyrant.

The two are unconnected.

They aren't, yet they are. He pulled the wool over their eyes through slow, deliberate manipulation. Create the crisis and present the solution. But of course, you don't think Briggie had anything to do with certain murders. If JS didn't teach polygamy, then some awful crap went down in the church.

[Mamabear]

Would a true prophet alter church history several times? Or take possession of the journals of Joseph Smith when clearly they were Emma’s?
Listen and look at the evidence and do your own homework and look at the journals.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UaaouTVRNjE

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H5jbcbzd9_4

There's your problem right there.
You set up a strawman argument about Brigham being a prophet and then point out that he appeared not to behave as such.
But your premise is faulty. He was not a prophet in the mould of Joseph Smith or many of the OT prophets and never claimed to be.
He was the leader of the Saints by virtue of his appointment as president of the church. Being appointed president of the church does not make you a prophet.
In the corporate sense, the church has only had one prophet.

I agree that Joseph was the only prophet. BY was the leader of the saints, that doesn’t excuse what he did. He was deceptive.