If God was once man who or what created the universe?

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NeveR
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If God was once man who or what created the universe?

Post by NeveR »

I was just reading this on the LDS website, written by Kent Nielsen
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

"The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man. … he was once a man like us … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth. …”

If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and … God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. … And where was there ever a father without first being a son? … If Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? …"

Long before our God began his creations, he dwelt on a mortal world like ours, one of the creations that his Father had created for him and his brethren.
"

Of course I've come across this belief before, but not often stated so clearly, especially these days. This makes it quite specific that our God is only one of a long lineage of Gods who all began as men and whose powers are more akin to a more highly evolved alien being than a divine creator.

This is not the way most Christians and Jews interpret the God of the scripture. I was raised (vaguely) Episcopalian and my mother's mother is Jewish, so I know that the God they worship is a Creator spirit. The First Cause. The maker of the universe and all things in it.

That doesn't make the LDS view wrong of course. I don't think it or suggest it. But it does raise the obvious question - if the God of the scriptures isn't the First Cause and didn't create the universe from nothing - what or who did?

Is there any teaching about that?

Apologies if the answers are obvious. I'm new, ok! Or msybe just a slow learner...
Last edited by NeveR on February 10th, 2022, 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Original_Intent
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Re: If God was once man who or what created the universe?

Post by Original_Intent »

It's a good question.
My answer is FAR outside of LDS doctrine, and honestly, I don't feel inclined to share my wild speculations. But my opinion this is a GREAT thing for you to study out in your mind and pray about. This is probably one of the biggest existential questions out there. I think tossing out my thoughts would deprive you of the opportunity of discovering an answer.

I don't feel I have a definitive answer, but I have had revelatory hints that I feel are guiding me in the correct direction.

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inho
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Re: If God was once man who or what created the universe?

Post by inho »

NeveR wrote: February 10th, 2022, 8:38 am That doesn't make the LDS view wrong of course. I don't think it or suggest it. But it does raise the obvious question - if the God of the scriptures isn't the First Cause and didn't create the universe from nothing - what or who did?
Creation ex nihilo - creation out of nothing - is not a Mormon belief. Joseph Smith denied it. The Mormon view on creation is that God took unorganized matter and organized it. D&C 93:33 says that "The elements are eternal."

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Re: If God was once man who or what created the universe?

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

We should believe in Elohim = Gods. (plural) Who was the first God, or was there a first God?
Now, to your point, was it the chicken or the egg?

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JLHPROF
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Re: If God was once man who or what created the universe?

Post by JLHPROF »

inho wrote: February 10th, 2022, 10:08 am
NeveR wrote: February 10th, 2022, 8:38 am That doesn't make the LDS view wrong of course. I don't think it or suggest it. But it does raise the obvious question - if the God of the scriptures isn't the First Cause and didn't create the universe from nothing - what or who did?
Creation ex nihilo - creation out of nothing - is not a Mormon belief. Joseph Smith denied it. The Mormon view on creation is that God took unorganized matter and organized it. D&C 93:33 says that "The elements are eternal."
This.
Nothing "created" the Universe. At least not if we use the term Universe to mean EVERYTHING that exists.
Depending on how large you view things the gospel phrase "this creation" singular could refer to an Earth, a solar system, a galaxy etc.

Our God may have created other worlds (without number) but perhaps that's referring to a finite space like a galaxy or cluster of galaxies.
But in infinite space there are other Gods and other creations.

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inho
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Re: If God was once man who or what created the universe?

Post by inho »

Joseph Smith in King Follett Discourse:
Hence we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos—chaotic matter, which is element, and in which dwells all the glory. Element had an existence from the time He had. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed; they may be organized and re-organized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning and can have no end.
Ensign 01/1989 The Restoration of Major Doctrines through Joseph Smith: The Godhead, Mankind, and the Creation
Eternal life is also possible, in part, because an element of every human being is divine and eternal. Joseph Smith used several different terms to refer to that eternal essence—spirit, soul, mind, and intelligence. He received the knowledge that “man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.” (D&C 93:29.) He taught that “the mind of man is as immortal as God himself” and that “the Spirit of Man [meaning intelligence] is not a created being.”

...

Hand in hand with the doctrine that man is eternal came Joseph Smith’s teachings about the creation of the world. While others taught that God created the world ex nihilo (out of nothing), he taught that God formed the earth from material that already existed.
Bruce R. McConkie: Christ and the Creation
And as we gaze and hear and ponder, our minds are enlightened and our understanding reaches to heaven. Truly Christ is the Creator of the future abode of the spirit children of the Father. But he does not work alone. The Creation is an organized venture; each of the other noble and great spirits plays his part. And the earth is created from matter that already exists. Truly the elements are eternal, and to create is to organize.

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NeveR
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Re: If God was once man who or what created the universe?

Post by NeveR »

inho wrote: February 10th, 2022, 10:08 am
NeveR wrote: February 10th, 2022, 8:38 am That doesn't make the LDS view wrong of course. I don't think it or suggest it. But it does raise the obvious question - if the God of the scriptures isn't the First Cause and didn't create the universe from nothing - what or who did?
Creation ex nihilo - creation out of nothing - is not a Mormon belief. Joseph Smith denied it. The Mormon view on creation is that God took unorganized matter and organized it. D&C 93:33 says that "The elements are eternal."
Surely joseph is talking from the perspective of his non-creator God who was once a man, for whom the origin of the universe would be as much a mystery as it is to us. He would simply have been born into it as we are. The elements are eternal to the LDS God, as they are to us, his children.

But that doesn't mean we don't need an origin story. Something, some First Cause beyond time and space must have created the elements, created dimensions, including the dimension of time, and including the first man who became a God.

What do we call this ultimate Creator?

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JLHPROF
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Re: If God was once man who or what created the universe?

Post by JLHPROF »

NeveR wrote: February 10th, 2022, 10:19 am
inho wrote: February 10th, 2022, 10:08 am
NeveR wrote: February 10th, 2022, 8:38 am That doesn't make the LDS view wrong of course. I don't think it or suggest it. But it does raise the obvious question - if the God of the scriptures isn't the First Cause and didn't create the universe from nothing - what or who did?
Creation ex nihilo - creation out of nothing - is not a Mormon belief. Joseph Smith denied it. The Mormon view on creation is that God took unorganized matter and organized it. D&C 93:33 says that "The elements are eternal."
Surely joseph is talking from the perspective of his non-creator God who was once a man, for whom the origin of the universe would be as much a mystery as it is to us. He would simply have been born into it as we are. The elements are eternal to the LDS God, as they are to us, his children.

But that doesn't mean we don't need an origin story. Something, some First Cause beyond time and space must have created the elements, created dimensions, including the dimension of time, and including the first man who became a God.

What do we call this ultimate Creator?
Why is this necessary?
I don't follow why there must be a first cause in eternity that had no beginning in space or time.

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NeveR
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Re: If God was once man who or what created the universe?

Post by NeveR »

JLHPROF wrote: February 10th, 2022, 10:20 am
NeveR wrote: February 10th, 2022, 10:19 am
inho wrote: February 10th, 2022, 10:08 am
NeveR wrote: February 10th, 2022, 8:38 am That doesn't make the LDS view wrong of course. I don't think it or suggest it. But it does raise the obvious question - if the God of the scriptures isn't the First Cause and didn't create the universe from nothing - what or who did?
Creation ex nihilo - creation out of nothing - is not a Mormon belief. Joseph Smith denied it. The Mormon view on creation is that God took unorganized matter and organized it. D&C 93:33 says that "The elements are eternal."
Surely joseph is talking from the perspective of his non-creator God who was once a man, for whom the origin of the universe would be as much a mystery as it is to us. He would simply have been born into it as we are. The elements are eternal to the LDS God, as they are to us, his children.

But that doesn't mean we don't need an origin story. Something, some First Cause beyond time and space must have created the elements, created dimensions, including the dimension of time, and including the first man who became a God.

What do we call this ultimate Creator?
Why is this necessary?
I don't follow why there must be a first cause in eternity that had no beginning in space or time.
Because it's an answer without explanation. Creation stories in other religions try to explain HOW matter arose from nothing, because this is the most basic and enduring puzzle there is. Saying "matter was always there and a long succession of different Gods merely shaped it" doesn't answer that one crucial question any better than the "Big Bang theory" of 'first there was nothing and then it exploded.'

It leaves a giant gap

No guiding intelligence created the beautiful symmetry of subatomic particles that combine uniquely to make every element. They just are there, by chance, because... they always have been?

The bizarre thing is - I hear atheists make the same argument. 🤷‍♀️

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JLHPROF
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Re: If God was once man who or what created the universe?

Post by JLHPROF »

NeveR wrote: February 10th, 2022, 10:54 am
JLHPROF wrote: February 10th, 2022, 10:20 am
NeveR wrote: February 10th, 2022, 10:19 am
inho wrote: February 10th, 2022, 10:08 am

Creation ex nihilo - creation out of nothing - is not a Mormon belief. Joseph Smith denied it. The Mormon view on creation is that God took unorganized matter and organized it. D&C 93:33 says that "The elements are eternal."
Surely joseph is talking from the perspective of his non-creator God who was once a man, for whom the origin of the universe would be as much a mystery as it is to us. He would simply have been born into it as we are. The elements are eternal to the LDS God, as they are to us, his children.

But that doesn't mean we don't need an origin story. Something, some First Cause beyond time and space must have created the elements, created dimensions, including the dimension of time, and including the first man who became a God.

What do we call this ultimate Creator?
Why is this necessary?
I don't follow why there must be a first cause in eternity that had no beginning in space or time.
Because it's an answer without explanation. Creation stories in other religions try to explain HOW matter arose from nothing, because this is the most basic and enduring puzzle there is. Saying "matter was always there and a long succession of different Gods merely shaped it" doesn't answer that one crucial question any better than the "Big Bang theory" of 'first there was nothing and then it exploded.'

It leaves a giant gap

No guiding intelligence created the beautiful symmetry of subatomic particles that combine uniquely to make every element. They just are there, by chance, because... they always have been?

The bizarre thing is - I hear atheists make the same argument. 🤷‍♀️
Well, I'm no scientist but isn't it a primary law of nature that energy/matter cannot be created or destroyed? It can only change form.

Yonder is matter unorganized...God could absolutely have organized the beautiful symmetry of particles. But that doesn't mean he created them.

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NeveR
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Re: If God was once man who or what created the universe?

Post by NeveR »

JLHPROF wrote: February 10th, 2022, 11:06 am
NeveR wrote: February 10th, 2022, 10:54 am
JLHPROF wrote: February 10th, 2022, 10:20 am
NeveR wrote: February 10th, 2022, 10:19 am

Surely joseph is talking from the perspective of his non-creator God who was once a man, for whom the origin of the universe would be as much a mystery as it is to us. He would simply have been born into it as we are. The elements are eternal to the LDS God, as they are to us, his children.

But that doesn't mean we don't need an origin story. Something, some First Cause beyond time and space must have created the elements, created dimensions, including the dimension of time, and including the first man who became a God.

What do we call this ultimate Creator?
Why is this necessary?
I don't follow why there must be a first cause in eternity that had no beginning in space or time.
Because it's an answer without explanation. Creation stories in other religions try to explain HOW matter arose from nothing, because this is the most basic and enduring puzzle there is. Saying "matter was always there and a long succession of different Gods merely shaped it" doesn't answer that one crucial question any better than the "Big Bang theory" of 'first there was nothing and then it exploded.'

It leaves a giant gap

No guiding intelligence created the beautiful symmetry of subatomic particles that combine uniquely to make every element. They just are there, by chance, because... they always have been?

The bizarre thing is - I hear atheists make the same argument. 🤷‍♀️
Well, I'm no scientist but isn't it a primary law of nature that energy/matter cannot be created or destroyed? It can only change form.
YES! But that's the nature of the puzzle. What immense power brought the immutable energy/matter into existence? What created the perfect mathematical alignments of the elements? What made time? And what existed when time did not?

Saying "well it was always there", is not an answer, it's a deferral.

EDIT - And just to restate - I'm NOT disbelieving the LDS God-was-man story, I just think we need to address the question of ultimate Creation and I am wondering if any LDS scholars have offered thoughts on the question

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NeveR
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Re: If God was once man who or what created the universe?

Post by NeveR »

Original_Intent wrote: February 10th, 2022, 9:32 am It's a good question.
My answer is FAR outside of LDS doctrine, and honestly, I don't feel inclined to share my wild speculations. But my opinion this is a GREAT thing for you to study out in your mind and pray about. This is probably one of the biggest existential questions out there. I think tossing out my thoughts would deprive you of the opportunity of discovering an answer.

I don't feel I have a definitive answer, but I have had revelatory hints that I feel are guiding me in the correct direction.
I would very much like to hear your opinions! I was hoping for much more feedback and links to info. Is it not something people like to discuss?

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Lexew1899
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Re: If God was once man who or what created the universe?

Post by Lexew1899 »

NeveR wrote: February 10th, 2022, 12:50 pm
Original_Intent wrote: February 10th, 2022, 9:32 am It's a good question.
My answer is FAR outside of LDS doctrine, and honestly, I don't feel inclined to share my wild speculations. But my opinion this is a GREAT thing for you to study out in your mind and pray about. This is probably one of the biggest existential questions out there. I think tossing out my thoughts would deprive you of the opportunity of discovering an answer.

I don't feel I have a definitive answer, but I have had revelatory hints that I feel are guiding me in the correct direction.
I would very much like to hear your opinions! I was hoping for much more feedback and links to info. Is it not something people like to discuss?
I wrote a lot about this subject. You can read it here if you want.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ywB ... sp=sharing

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nightlight
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Re: If God was once man who or what created the universe?

Post by nightlight »

NeveR wrote: February 10th, 2022, 8:38 am I was just reading this on the LDS website, written by Kent Nielsen
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

"The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man. … he was once a man like us … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth. …”

If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and … God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. … And where was there ever a father without first being a son? … If Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? …"

Long before our God began his creations, he dwelt on a mortal world like ours, one of the creations that his Father had created for him and his brethren.
"

Of course I've come across this belief before, but not often stated so clearly, especially these days. This makes it quite specific that our God is only one of a long lineage of Gods who all began as men and whose powers are more akin to a more highly evolved alien being than a divine creator.

This is not the way most Christians and Jews interpret the God of the scripture. I was raised (vaguely) Episcopalian and my mother's mother is Jewish, so I know that the God they worship is a Creator spirit. The First Cause. The maker of the universe and all things in it.

That doesn't make the LDS view wrong of course. I don't think it or suggest it. But it does raise the obvious question - if the God of the scriptures isn't the First Cause and didn't create the universe from nothing - what or who did?

Is there any teaching about that?

Apologies if the answers are obvious. I'm new, ok! Or msybe just a slow learner...
Joseph Smith
Lectures on Faith:5
"In our former lectures we treated of the being, character, perfections and attributes of God. What we mean by perfections, is, the perfections which belong to all the attributes of his nature. We shall, in this lecture speak of the Godhead: we mean the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

2 There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things—by whom all things were created and made, that are created and made, whether visible or invisible: whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout the immensity of space—They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory and power: possessing all perfection and fulness: The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made, or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man, or, rather, man was formed after his likeness, and in his image;—he is also the express image and likeness of the personage of the Father: possessing all the fulness of the Father, or, the same fulness with the Father; being begotten of him, and was ordained from before the foundation of the world to be a propitiation for the sins of all those who should believe on his name, and is called the Son because of the flesh—and descended in suffering below that which man can suffer, or, in other words, suffered greater sufferings, and was exposed to more powerful contradictions than any man can be."
------+-------

I believe this ^^^^^

Lol how to explain the Father , who as no beginning or end???????
What does this actually mean???
What does it mean to exist outside of time & space?

I don't I think we have a language that can describe it. I don't think our brains can comprehend this.

It's akin to be able to look at all the sides of a cube at once.

This kid describes the reality of the Father in the best way a human can imo

JuneBug12000
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Re: If God was once man who or what created the universe?

Post by JuneBug12000 »

Enoch has an explanation.
https://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/fbe/in ... ection_002

XXIV.
Of the great secrets of God, which God revealed and told to Enoch, and spoke with him face to face.

AND the Lord summoned me, and said to me: 'Enoch, sit down on my left with Gabriel.'

2 And I bowed down to the Lord, and the Lord spoke to me: Enoch, beloved, all thou seest, all things that are standing finished I tell to thee even before the very beginning, all that I created from non-being, and visible things from invisible.

3 Hear, Enoch, and take in these my words, for not to My angels have I told my secret, and I have not told them their rise, nor my endless realm, nor have they understood my creating, which I tell thee to-day.

4 For before all things were visible, I alone used to go about in the invisible things, like the sun from east to west, and from west to east.

5 But even the sun has peace in itself, while I found no peace, because I was creating all things, and I conceived the thought of placing foundations, and of creating visible creation.

XXV.
God relates to Enoch, how out of the very lowest darkness comes down the visible and invisible.

I COMMANDED in the very lowest parts, that visible things should come down from invisible, and Adoil came down very great, and I beheld him, and lo! he had a belly of great light.

2 And I said to him: 'Become undone, Adoil, and let the visible come out of thee.'

3 And he came undone, and a great light came out. And I was in the midst of the great light, and as there is born light from light, there came forth a great age, and showed all creation, which I had thought to create.

4 And I saw that it was good.

5 And I placed for myself a throne, and took my seat on it, and said to the light: 'Go thou up higher and fix thyself high above the throne, and be a foundation to the highest things.'

6 And above the light there is nothing else, and then I bent up and looked up from my throne.

XXVI.
God summons from the very lowest a second time that Archas, heavy and very red should come forth.

AND I summoned the very lowest a second time, and said: 'Let Archas come forth hard,' and he came forth hard from the invisible.

2 And Archas came forth, hard, heavy, and very red.

3 And I said: 'Be opened, Archas, and let there be born from thee,' and he came undone, an age came forth, very great and very dark, bearing the creation of all lower things, and I saw that it was good and said to him:

4 'Go thou down below, and make thyself firm, and be for a foundation for the lower things,' and it happened and he went down and fixed himself, and became the foundation for the lower things, and below the darkness there is nothing else.

XXVII.
Of how God founded the water, and surrounded it with light, and established on it seven islands.

AND I commanded that there should be taken from light and darkness, and I said: 'Be thick,' and it became thus

and I spread it out with the light, and it became water, and I spread it out over the darkness, below the light, and then I made firm the waters, that is to say

the bottomless, and I made foundation of light around the water, and created seven circles from inside, and imaged it (sc. the water) like crystal wet and dry, that is to say like glass, and the circumcession of the waters and the other elements, and I showed each one of them its road, and the seven stars each one of them in its heaven, that they go thus, and I saw that it was good.

2 And I separated between light and between darkness, that is to say in the midst of the water hither and thither, and I said to the light, that it should be the day, and to the darkness, that it should be the night, and there was evening and there was morning the first day.

It goes on from there.

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TheDuke
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Re: If God was once man who or what created the universe?

Post by TheDuke »

Joseph taught that god "organizes" and uses the universe, he didn't bring it into being. He found himself wiser and more powerful than anything else and grew into what he (first god) is today, then set out to bring others along with him, which is bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Now question to me isn't if the first of the gods created his environment as JS taught that, the question is did this particular universe and dimension, etc.... exist then or are there more dimensions and universes and how much influence do the gods have in creating or forming or reorganizing them.

God is a man, a perfect, powerful man, but a man with a perfect and equally powerful mate. Read KFD.

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JLHPROF
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Re: If God was once man who or what created the universe?

Post by JLHPROF »

nightlight wrote: February 10th, 2022, 1:42 pm Joseph Smith
Lectures on Faith:5
"In our former lectures we treated of the being, character, perfections and attributes of God. What we mean by perfections, is, the perfections which belong to all the attributes of his nature. We shall, in this lecture speak of the Godhead: we mean the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

2 There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things—by whom all things were created and made, that are created and made, whether visible or invisible: whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout the immensity of space—They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory and power: possessing all perfection and fulness: The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made, or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man, or, rather, man was formed after his likeness, and in his image;—he is also the express image and likeness of the personage of the Father: possessing all the fulness of the Father, or, the same fulness with the Father; being begotten of him, and was ordained from before the foundation of the world to be a propitiation for the sins of all those who should believe on his name, and is called the Son because of the flesh—and descended in suffering below that which man can suffer, or, in other words, suffered greater sufferings, and was exposed to more powerful contradictions than any man can be."
------+-------
I believe this ^^^^^

Lol how to explain the Father , who as no beginning or end???????
What does this actually mean???
What does it mean to exist outside of time & space?

I don't I think we have a language that can describe it. I don't think our brains can comprehend this.
I don't believe this, and I think it represents Joseph and Sidney bringing their Protestant background into the Church. And I think the restoration moved beyond this and Joseph received correction.

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Re: If God was once man who or what created the universe?

Post by creator »

It's mind boggling. Look at any object or being and you assume something had to create it, something was the originator, but how to even conceive of how these eternal elements or beings came into existence?! Who or what created the infinite? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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nightlight
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Re: If God was once man who or what created the universe?

Post by nightlight »

JLHPROF wrote: February 10th, 2022, 2:16 pm
nightlight wrote: February 10th, 2022, 1:42 pm Joseph Smith
Lectures on Faith:5
"In our former lectures we treated of the being, character, perfections and attributes of God. What we mean by perfections, is, the perfections which belong to all the attributes of his nature. We shall, in this lecture speak of the Godhead: we mean the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

2 There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things—by whom all things were created and made, that are created and made, whether visible or invisible: whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout the immensity of space—They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory and power: possessing all perfection and fulness: The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made, or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man, or, rather, man was formed after his likeness, and in his image;—he is also the express image and likeness of the personage of the Father: possessing all the fulness of the Father, or, the same fulness with the Father; being begotten of him, and was ordained from before the foundation of the world to be a propitiation for the sins of all those who should believe on his name, and is called the Son because of the flesh—and descended in suffering below that which man can suffer, or, in other words, suffered greater sufferings, and was exposed to more powerful contradictions than any man can be."
------+-------
I believe this ^^^^^

Lol how to explain the Father , who as no beginning or end???????
What does this actually mean???
What does it mean to exist outside of time & space?

I don't I think we have a language that can describe it. I don't think our brains can comprehend this.
I don't believe this, and I think it represents Joseph and Sidney bringing their Protestant background into the Church. And I think the restoration moved beyond this and Joseph received correction.
Joseph also anointed himself king of america. His followers were sure he'd become president...they actually rested their belief in the Book of Mormon on it

He fell out of a window calling out for those who conspired to murder him...to save him

Joseph Smith was moved by men.

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TheDuke
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Re: If God was once man who or what created the universe?

Post by TheDuke »

If you think about what is around you long enough and ponder on the beginning and all possibilities, you will eventually realize that you and all around you cannot exist, therefore you "are not" and neither is all you see............ Then you look at your hand and pinch it and it hurts, so you have to start all over. And you're back at if there was nothing, then now is there everything, and there was no where for it to come from? It cannot be there and I am now typing on a computer that doesn't exist to a group of people that cannot be. Yet they are?

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Dusty Wanderer
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Re: If God was once man who or what created the universe?

Post by Dusty Wanderer »

We perceive time linearly. We perceive space as three dimensions. Eternity to us extends in both directions of the timeline. Is God's time a line, too; or is it round, or something else. Don't know if it's possible to comprehend God's dimension with our terms of space and time; not any more than a two dimensional being would be able to describe a sphere from their realm.

Just because we perceive something being created in our dimension doesn't mean that it hadn't already existed beyond the bounds of our perception. We think we perceive the entirety of an object in our dimension, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't extend well beyond the bounds of our perception, like the root system of Aspen trees, a single organism inter-connected below the ground's surface.

I like Carl Sagan's treatment here of the 4th dimension.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnURElCzGc0
Last edited by Dusty Wanderer on February 10th, 2022, 3:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Dusty Wanderer
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Re: If God was once man who or what created the universe?

Post by Dusty Wanderer »

JLHPROF wrote: February 10th, 2022, 2:16 pm
nightlight wrote: February 10th, 2022, 1:42 pm Joseph Smith
Lectures on Faith:5
"In our former lectures we treated of the being, character, perfections and attributes of God. What we mean by perfections, is, the perfections which belong to all the attributes of his nature. We shall, in this lecture speak of the Godhead: we mean the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

2 There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things—by whom all things were created and made, that are created and made, whether visible or invisible: whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout the immensity of space—They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory and power: possessing all perfection and fulness: The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made, or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man, or, rather, man was formed after his likeness, and in his image;—he is also the express image and likeness of the personage of the Father: possessing all the fulness of the Father, or, the same fulness with the Father; being begotten of him, and was ordained from before the foundation of the world to be a propitiation for the sins of all those who should believe on his name, and is called the Son because of the flesh—and descended in suffering below that which man can suffer, or, in other words, suffered greater sufferings, and was exposed to more powerful contradictions than any man can be."
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I believe this ^^^^^

Lol how to explain the Father , who as no beginning or end???????
What does this actually mean???
What does it mean to exist outside of time & space?

I don't I think we have a language that can describe it. I don't think our brains can comprehend this.
I don't believe this, and I think it represents Joseph and Sidney bringing their Protestant background into the Church. And I think the restoration moved beyond this and Joseph received correction.
And on the other hand, not all change is progress.

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Niemand
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Re: If God was once man who or what created the universe?

Post by Niemand »

Basically in cosmological terms, Mormons seem to be Steady State supporters, rather than Big Bang types.

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Re: If God was once man who or what created the universe?

Post by creator »

Dusty Wanderer wrote: February 10th, 2022, 3:12 pm We perceive time linearly. We perceive space as three dimensions. ...

I like Carl Sagan's treatment here of the 4th dimension.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnURElCzGc0
I'll have to give that a listen. I do like what Rudolf Steiner said about the 4th dimension (and beyond). A very simplified TL;DR is that while we experience life in this 3rd dimension, we are in reality, at minimum, 4th dimensional beings, but probably more like 6th dimensional. We experience life in this physical body on earth from a 3rd dimensional perspective, but knowing that we also have a spirit and an intelligence (or as Steiner would describe: an etheric body, astral body, and ego), the other aspects of our body exist in a different dimension (and we don't perceive those in this physical world). If we could perceive ourselves in the 4th dimension, we would see our physical, etheric, and astral bodies. (something like that)

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Original_Intent
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Re: If God was once man who or what created the universe?

Post by Original_Intent »

NeveR wrote: February 10th, 2022, 12:50 pm
Original_Intent wrote: February 10th, 2022, 9:32 am It's a good question.
My answer is FAR outside of LDS doctrine, and honestly, I don't feel inclined to share my wild speculations. But my opinion this is a GREAT thing for you to study out in your mind and pray about. This is probably one of the biggest existential questions out there. I think tossing out my thoughts would deprive you of the opportunity of discovering an answer.

I don't feel I have a definitive answer, but I have had revelatory hints that I feel are guiding me in the correct direction.
I would very much like to hear your opinions! I was hoping for much more feedback and links to info. Is it not something people like to discuss?
I have no links as these are pretty much my own thoughts. Some of it is super speculative and I have a lot of doubts about; other parts I am more certain. Also I am going to speak in broad strokes as I truly believe hearing it from a person it will probably sound ridiculous, and I think it is intended to be taught only by the spirit.

Firstly, I believe in multiple mortal probations. I am absolutely certain that progression between kingdoms is possible. Okay, only the Sith speak in absolutes, suffice it to say I have had this answered to my satisfaction.

Second, I believe in rounds of creation - more on this later.

Third, we are often confronted by paradoxes in scripture. For instance, Father refers to himself as Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. Yet He also states that He (and we) are eternal, without beginning of days or end of years. This bears long and serious consideration. Infinite lifespan is incomprehensible, but there are some conclusions to be made from it. My conclusion is that we have all been God, and that Christ saying "Ye are gods" was not metaphorical or speaking of potential. We clearly are not omniscient, omnipotent, etc. but I believe this is because we willingly entered a condition of forgetfulness. Why would we do this? This is a question that bears some contemplation.

Christ also commanded us to become One, even as He and the Father were One. I do not think this means our individual personality gets absorbed and lost, but I do think it means being of one heart and mind. Imagine in the eternities being of one mind with billions of humans that have existed as well as Heavenly Father and Jesus, every great mind that has ever lived. Any incorrect ideas you hold will be immediately understood by you why they are incorrect because you will be able to compare notes with billions of life experiences. You also will not have the ego and concern about being wrong. You will be eager to find out how wrong you were and to learn all the correct principles that are knowable. I have no idea if this is something that can happen in an instant or if it is the work of billions of years. The ancient name for God, Elohim, is actually feminine and plural. I believe when we attain this perfect one heart and one mind, we become part of the Elohim. We then assist others in achieving this, ALWAYS respecting agency.

In an infinite amount of time there are only two possible outcomes, that I can think of; either EVERY intelligence (yes even Lucifer) will become one with the Elohim, or all will be eternally divided into Light and Dark, a universal Yin and Yang if you will. I tend to believe the former but is possible. A third option would be that new intelligences are always being generated, but that would make a liar out of God who has stated (and I believe) that intelligence is co-eternal with Him

So, what happens when we reach this conclusion? Perhaps we bask eternally in the love and light, but I think not. Again, we have been in existence for an infinite time, or came from a place where Time has no real meaning. So (wild speculation time) I conceive that we eventually long for the experience of growth, and here we are having conquered all that there is to be conquered. It occurs to me that eventually we decide to go thru another cycle, I believe this is what constitutes what we refer to as a round of creation.

I believe one person is chosen to remain thru the round of creation in their state of perfect knowledge. and perhaps a team of Elohim are also chosen to "sit this one out" in order to, well, maintain order.

The mind blower is if we have been doing this forever, every single intelligence has had the role of God, probably had the role of Lucifer (if Lucifer comes from the light and not from the dark) and you have already experienced every possible experience thru these infinite rounds of creation because there is no alternative.

I do think we are watched and cheered in our victories and wept over in our failures. Thinking about it too much can lead one to feel like "What is the point?" But I do believe that there is a point and there is a reason for it, but that reason may only be that eternal bliss is boring and we eventually long for a challenge, which can only come about with a forgetting.

This is how I conceive that God was once a man as we are, but also has been, is, and always will be God. And I blame no one if they completely reject this as crazy ramblings. I've also shared more than I intended but I also feel good about hitting enter. :)

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