Romeo and Juliet is NOT a love story.

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JuneBug12000
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Romeo and Juliet is NOT a love story.

Post by JuneBug12000 »

Once upon a time a friend asked me if I teach my kids Shakespeare since I homeschool.

The discussion turned to Romeo and Juliet and what is the point of the story. Maybe her kids were considering being a play as well or something. I can't remember, it has been some time.)

So, she asked what I thought and I told her it was a cautionary tale about infatuation and stupidity leading to a double suicide. Not something to emulate. I just don't believe it was Shakespeare's goal to treat it as the ultimate love story.

I am curious if you all agree with one interpretation or the other. I assume people came to believe it otherwise from school, since that is where I learned it.

Bigger observation/question: I feel like I see this often with people at church who haven't read the scriptures and just regurgitate what they have heard year after year in church about the "stories" in the scriptures.

What are some common things we as a people are getting wrong?

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tmac
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Re: Romeo and Juliet is NOT a love story.

Post by tmac »

Astute observations. Unfortunately, most people don't get any deeper than the surface.

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Niemand
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Re: Romeo and Juliet is NOT a love story.

Post by Niemand »

People playing Every Breath You Take by the Police at weddings. If you listen to the lyrics, it's about stalking.

"Every breath you take, every move you make, I'll be watching you."

An obvious one, Frankenstein isn't the name of the monster, unless you consider Dr. Frankenstein a greater monster than his creation. (And there is a case for that in the original novel, because he is in great pain, and pursues Dr. Frankenstein.)

A religious one, often repeated in Mormon circles. The notion that "thou" and "thee" equal respectful formal language... they're actually familiar language you'd use to your close family, not your boss or your elders. French, Spanish, German etc still make this distinction with the related words tu, du etc. English was just the same. I have had great fun correcting folk on this. Even some General Authorities seem to have made this mistake.
Last edited by Niemand on February 6th, 2022, 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Krusty
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Re: Romeo and Juliet is NOT a love story.

Post by Krusty »

I don't know if I really have anything more insightful to say than that I agree with you. Shakespeare is fascinating in that he is one of the first writers and authors of surviving works from the Renaissance. Study of him would be PART OF a beneficial deeper understanding of the roots of western civilization. The fixation on R&J and the prevailing superficial interpretation of the story is, in my opinion, par for the course for public schooling.

JuneBug12000
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Re: Romeo and Juliet is NOT a love story.

Post by JuneBug12000 »

Niemand wrote: February 6th, 2022, 8:56 pm People playing Every Breath You Take by the Police at weddings. If you listen to the lyrics, it's about stalking.

"Every breath you take, every move you make, I'll be watching you."

An obvious one, Frankenstein isn't the name of the monster, unless you consider Dr. Frankenstein a greater monster than his creation. (And there is a case for that in the original novel, because he is in great pain, and pursues Dr. Frankenstein.)

A religious one, often repeated in Mormon circles. The notion that "thou" and "thee" equal respectful formal language... they're actually familiar language you'd use to your close family, not your boss or your elders. French, Spanish, German etc still make this distinction with the related words tu, du etc. English was just the same. I have had great fun correcting folk on this. Even some General Authorities seem to have made this mistake.
LOL. I do the same thing with thee and thou.

People are always saying it is formal and I when I correct them and say it is informal they are surprised.

It makes sense to me. God is my father, we speak familiarly to each other, not as strangers.

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Chamberlain
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Re: Romeo and Juliet is NOT a love story.

Post by Chamberlain »

That is kind of the style of writing and entertainment that was popular in England at that time. Over-the-top, exaggerated stories with odd and dramatic endings. Perfect for the pompous British Royals to enjoy, while they feast on the peasants labor.

I agree it's not a true 'love' story, the reality is most people don't know what love is.

But it's still good for an education, I enjoyed reading R&J and Hamlet in high school, mostly to see how storytelling has evolved since then and how it compares to different periods of writing and art.
I'd rather be reading Shakespeare than the post-modern nonsense they brainwash the kids with today.

JohnnyL
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Re: Romeo and Juliet is NOT a love story.

Post by JohnnyL »

Not a love story! You described it succinctly. Perfect for junior high and high school children to read. :roll:

I didn't like it. I didn't like most S. I have no idea why students still read it, even in public schools. Julius
Caesar was better. One or two others not bad.

Of course, I think many of the reading choices in school aren't good. I'd change a lot of them, if I taught.

Thee and thou--yes, in other languages, they often use the informal, especially for informal prayers. Over the years, t a t are the "new formal".

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iWriteStuff
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Re: Romeo and Juliet is NOT a love story.

Post by iWriteStuff »

Technically, Romeo and Juliet falls under the description of “tragedy” in classic literature. At least that’s where it sits in my “Complete Shakespeare” set.

I think Hollywood set it up as a romance and folks ate it up. But it has nothing to do with love and everything to do with teenage hormones mixed with the inability to make rational decisions.

I like it for the clever phrases and the outright mastery of expression. Unfortunately I don’t think we’ve been trained to read it properly, nor draw the correct conclusions. That being said, the book begins and ends with statements describing it as a tragedy of human folly. You have to willfully disregard those statements to come to any other sort of conclusion.

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Niemand
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Re: Romeo and Juliet is NOT a love story.

Post by Niemand »

JohnnyL wrote: February 17th, 2022, 10:44 am Not a love story! You described it succinctly. Perfect for junior high and high school children to read. :roll:

I didn't like it. I didn't like most S. I have no idea why students still read it, even in public schools. Julius
Caesar was better. One or two others not bad.

Of course, I think many of the reading choices in school aren't good. I'd change a lot of them, if I taught.

Thee and thou--yes, in other languages, they often use the informal, especially for informal prayers. Over the years, t a t are the "new formal".
The big danger just now is "recentism". Some folk live in a eternal present with no understanding of the past. This has allowed the woke movement in big time. The loss of the Bible to many youngsters, physical books and even the removal of Latin from schools (though see below) have all contributed. The Chinese still take the long view - despite what happened since WW2 - and that's a major reason why their planning is a lot better. (The same applies to globalists.)

The Whig Interpretation of History is also everywhere. This is the lie that things have always been getting better and we are the pinnacle of perfection (and next decade will be even better). A lot of young people suffer from this idea although they don't know the name of it.

Part of me feels like school puts a lot of people off literature, art and music etc, but I also think now is the time that we need to start getting a sense of deeper time again. I'm not saying high schools *should* do Latin and Ancient Greek again, but there should at least be some literature etc on the table which makes them realise how people used to be. I appreciate being able to look at Shakespeare and seeing what hasn't changed. I can even look at Chaucer (although I think modern English is probably needed there) and see things which are still going on. Then you have the Bible and all the stuff from classical literature and much of that ties into today. Instead folk are being trained to think something as recent as Trump's presidency is now ancient history.

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Thinker
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Re: Romeo and Juliet is NOT a love story.

Post by Thinker »

Good point! The god of romance is really superficial infatuation.

There is such depth & perspectives that would be soothing to many. Sadly, as it is…
  • ”But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves.” - Matthew 23

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h_p
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Re: Romeo and Juliet is NOT a love story.

Post by h_p »

JuneBug12000 wrote: February 6th, 2022, 8:47 pm What are some common things we as a people are getting wrong?
1984 and Brave New World aren't how-to manuals.

Franklin D. Roosevelt was not a great president.

"Alot" is not a word.

JohnnyL
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Re: Romeo and Juliet is NOT a love story.

Post by JohnnyL »

Niemand wrote: February 19th, 2022, 8:10 am
JohnnyL wrote: February 17th, 2022, 10:44 am Not a love story! You described it succinctly. Perfect for junior high and high school children to read. :roll:

I didn't like it. I didn't like most S. I have no idea why students still read it, even in public schools. Julius
Caesar was better. One or two others not bad.

Of course, I think many of the reading choices in school aren't good. I'd change a lot of them, if I taught.

Thee and thou--yes, in other languages, they often use the informal, especially for informal prayers. Over the years, t a t are the "new formal".
The big danger just now is "recentism". Some folk live in a eternal present with no understanding of the past. This has allowed the woke movement in big time. The loss of the Bible to many youngsters, physical books and even the removal of Latin from schools (though see below) have all contributed. The Chinese still take the long view - despite what happened since WW2 - and that's a major reason why their planning is a lot better. (The same applies to globalists.)

The Whig Interpretation of History is also everywhere. This is the lie that things have always been getting better and we are the pinnacle of perfection (and next decade will be even better). A lot of young people suffer from this idea although they don't know the name of it.

Part of me feels like school puts a lot of people off literature, art and music etc, but I also think now is the time that we need to start getting a sense of deeper time again. I'm not saying high schools *should* do Latin and Ancient Greek again, but there should at least be some literature etc on the table which makes them realise how people used to be. I appreciate being able to look at Shakespeare and seeing what hasn't changed. I can even look at Chaucer (although I think modern English is probably needed there) and see things which are still going on. Then you have the Bible and all the stuff from classical literature and much of that ties into today. Instead folk are being trained to think something as recent as Trump's presidency is now ancient history.
The past, and (the Left's) revision of the past, is a big problem.

Chinese history is a monster. High school history class in a bad school is much more difficult than a history class in a good USA college.

"Always getting better"--ha ha, so true in the USA, too.

One of the things they've reported is that the lack of a shared culture weakens a country (hello, USA!). We had 3 main tv channels, music was often not segregated--stations would play country, rock, pop, disco, folk--all together, everyone saw the same movies and read lots of the same books, etc. Now, everything is split wide apart, though Hollywood and others try to keep it together in a few ways. Unlike in the past, two random people likely have much more not in common, than in common. Ignorance, (harsh) judgementality, and a feeling of being strangers and not meant to be together (work, neighborhood, social circles, etc.) is stronger. I think this lack of shared culture also leads to more isolation and loneliness, though it's supposed to bring people who are very much alike together--a stronger duality, so to say.

Most children nowadays, sometimes due to educators nowadays, can barely make it through an average English class.

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Thinker
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Re: Romeo and Juliet is NOT a love story.

Post by Thinker »

Niemand wrote: February 6th, 2022, 8:56 pm People playing Every Breath You Take by the Police at weddings. If you listen to the lyrics, it's about stalking.

"Every breath you take, every move you make, I'll be watching you."
True! :lol:
It’s also what my dog’s doing as I cook.

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Jashon
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Re: Romeo and Juliet is NOT a love story.

Post by Jashon »

T and V pronominal distinctions (T and Y in English) are nuanced and complex, with various historical overlays. One element you haven't discussed is that T forms can suggest closeness, different from familiarity or even intimacy. That's the best argument for maintaining their use, and might actually be the main historical reason, although to be clear, I don't argue that T forms should be maintained at all. Nowadays, we hear a lot of "thou gives", etc., a usage that actually does have a historical basis, since it can be found in the 1600s. But of course it is technically wrong. Quakers in the 1600s, well before they were using subject thee for thou, would say stuff like "thou gives", in addition to "thou givest", in fairly free variation.

We probably won't have another talk in GC on the importance of using T pronominal forms in prayer. Oaks might have given the last one on that topic. Most newer members don't even attempt it, sticking with Y forms, which is perfectly fine.

Another thing T forms could be used for was as a putdown, as, for example, when Nephi said to L&L, Thou art mine elder brethren (the orig. reading). He was chastising them, so the T form was used in the English translation to indicate that.

JohnnyL
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Re: Romeo and Juliet is NOT a love story.

Post by JohnnyL »

h_p wrote: February 19th, 2022, 9:18 am
JuneBug12000 wrote: February 6th, 2022, 8:47 pm What are some common things we as a people are getting wrong?
1984 and Brave New World aren't how-to manuals.

Franklin D. Roosevelt was not a great president.

"Alot" is not a word.
The how to manual is the follow up to BNW, isn't it?

There's a lot of messed up history, including FDR.

I see two huge problems with language now:
1. "more + adjective" instead of "adjective+"-er" All the time: spoken and written, informal and formal (many times in speeches, published articles, and even books). I think the problem started with "fun" and blossomed from there. It's made especially worse when people combine adjectives of different forms, and then people will just use "more" for every adjective.

2. "__ and I" used as direct and indirect pronouns. "The Lord promised my wife and I...", "The Lord promised to my wife and I", etc.

Well, let me throw in a third: "The Lord promised my wife and myself..."

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Niemand
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Re: Romeo and Juliet is NOT a love story.

Post by Niemand »

Thinker wrote: February 19th, 2022, 9:31 am
Niemand wrote: February 6th, 2022, 8:56 pm People playing Every Breath You Take by the Police at weddings. If you listen to the lyrics, it's about stalking.

"Every breath you take, every move you make, I'll be watching you."
True! :lol:
It’s also what my dog’s doing as I cook.

Image
I had to train my dog to look away from me as I was eating. Otherwise he would just sit there drooling making puppy eyes at me. 😄

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Silver Pie
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Re: Romeo and Juliet is NOT a love story.

Post by Silver Pie »

Niemand wrote: February 6th, 2022, 8:56 pm People playing Every Breath You Take by the Police at weddings. If you listen to the lyrics, it's about stalking.

"Every breath you take, every move you make, I'll be watching you."
It's a totally creepy, stalker song. Fun to sing along, but I get a visual of a guy in the shadows with a gun or knife, getting ready to kill the person he's stalking, which is not a fun visual in the least.


JohnnyL wrote: February 17th, 2022, 10:44 am I didn't like most S.
The only Shakespeare I like are the comedies.


h_p wrote: February 19th, 2022, 9:18 am "Alot" is not a word.
Neither is "whinge". I've figured out that they either mean whine or whining, but if I said their word to them in person, they probably would go, "What?" (whinj)
Last edited by Silver Pie on February 19th, 2022, 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Romeo and Juliet is NOT a love story.

Post by Silver Pie »

JohnnyL wrote: February 19th, 2022, 9:48 am 2. "__ and I" used as direct and indirect pronouns. "The Lord promised my wife and I...", "The Lord promised to my wife and I", etc.

Well, let me throw in a third: "The Lord promised my wife and myself..."
I was taught in school that if it made no sense to say the pronoun "I" alone, it was wrong to use if referring to yourself and someone else. Example, "The Lord promised I . . . ." Huh?

"The Lord promised myself," makes me clearly hear some Irish guy speaking - at least in the movies I've seen. Don't know if they do that in real life.

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Thinker
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Re: Romeo and Juliet is NOT a love story.

Post by Thinker »

Silver Pie wrote: February 19th, 2022, 5:00 pm I was taught in school that if it made no sense to say the pronoun "I" alone, it was wrong to use if referring to yourself and someone else. Example, "The Lord promised I . . . ." Huh?

"The Lord promised myself," makes me clearly hear some Irish guy speaking - at least in the movies I've seen. Don't know if they do that in real life.
:lol: ☘️
God is the best of all aspects, including humor. So I look forward to watching a spiritual movie about funny biblical imaginings of people as they read the good book.

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