Be Ye Therefore Perfect… Brigham Young vs. Russell M. Nelson

[endlessQuestions]

There is a genuine controversy regarding what Matthew 5:48 means by “Be ye therefore perfect” that needs to be resolved.

Brigham Young used this verse to teach that we could be perfect here and now, just as Noah, Seth, Enoch, and others are described as perfect.

Russell M. Nelson, in his talk “Perfection Pending” disputes this claim (without naming Brigham or sharing his argument) and claims that the perfection spoken of in that passage only relates to what he calls “eternal perfection”.

I think I’ve resolved the situation for myself but would be interested in what others come up with if they sincerely study the topic. I was able to untangle it (I believe) with simple logic tests and a little bit of research on the usage of the words “be” and “perfect” in the scriptures.

Looking forward to seeing what you find, and sharing my thoughts a bit later down the road.

[Luke]

Perfection = “Teleios” = Complete.

Complete how? Through the grace of Jesus Christ.

Moroni 10
32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

The confusion is purely semantics - because concepts are not being taught properly, confusion arises. Hence the need to water down doctrine because of the confusion. And on the downward spiral it goes.

[endlessQuestions]

Perfection = “Teleios” = Complete.

Complete how? Through the grace of Jesus Christ.

Moroni 10
32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

The confusion is purely semantics - because concepts are not being taught properly, confusion arises. Hence the need to water down doctrine because of the confusion. And on the downward spiral it goes.

You would fall in line with Brigham on this issue, then.

In my opinion you have shown yourself to be an excellent researcher, Luke. I would highly recommend you dig into this topic a bit. I found it unbelievably fruitful, and the Spirit seemed eager to communicate with me about it. What do you know about the Greek word translated as “be” in this scripture. Does anything pop out at you as you research it?

[endlessQuestions]

Perfection = “Teleios” = Complete.

Complete how? Through the grace of Jesus Christ.

Moroni 10
32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

The confusion is purely semantics - because concepts are not being taught properly, confusion arises. Hence the need to water down doctrine because of the confusion. And on the downward spiral it goes.

The damage being done to members by not properly interpreting this scripture is not hypothetical. It is very, very real. And we need to ask ourselves, was Brigham right? Or is President Nelson right? Or are they both wrong? One thing must be true: both Brigham and President Nelson cannot be right. Notice the use of the word “requisite” in President Nelson’s argument. It means something important, and it draws a line between him and Brigham that cannot be breached.

Joseph showed us the way to resolve such disputes. We can do this, although it is not an easy thing.

[endlessQuestions]

More hints:

President Nelson uses for scriptures in his argument, then states a conclusion. Two of the scriptures he uses are problematic: one because it negates his conclusion if used on is own, and one because it falls into the category of “one of these things isn’t like the other”. Can you identify which two are problematic and explain why?

[endlessQuestions]

Hint: Brigham offers an alternate wording of Matthew 5:48. What happens if you substitute his revised explanation in each of the four scriptures then-Elder Nelson utilized in his argument?

[Pazooka]

I’m going with Moroni on this one. (+ BY + Luke) = 3 witnesses

[Mamabear]

I believe after studying the scriptures, that we can become perfect in this life. Matthew 5:48. I think by perfect it means, sanctified and cleansed by the Holy Spirit ready for higher and holier communication from God. As you said certain people were described this way, when they reached a certain point they conversed with God.
This is part of the gospel that is hid from the world. It’s right there in the scriptures, but it’s misunderstood because of unbelief.

[endlessQuestions]

I believe after studying the scriptures, that we can become perfect in this life. Matthew 5:48. I think by perfect it means, sanctified and cleansed by the Holy Spirit ready for higher and holier communication from God. As you said certain people were described this way, when they reached a certain point they conversed with God.
This is part of the gospel that is hid from the world. It’s right there in the scriptures, but it’s misunderstood because of unbelief.

Excellent. You would also agree with Brigham then.

[endlessQuestions]

I’m going with Moroni on this one. (+ BY + Luke) = 3 witnesses

Care to share your line of reasoning? I would be very interested in hearing it. Especially about Moroni….

[marc]

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=62465

[briznian]

I don’t have a full answer, but maybe this snippet from the Lectures on Faith can contribute a small amount:

But notwithstanding all this, [Jesus] kept the law of God, and remained without sin: Showing thereby that it is in the power of man to keep the law and remain also without sin. And also, that by him a righteous judgment might come upon all flesh, and that all who walk not in the law of God, may justly be condemned by the law, and have no excuse for their sins.

[Pazooka]

I’m going with Moroni on this one. (+ BY + Luke) = 3 witnesses

Care to share your line of reasoning? I would be very interested in hearing it. Especially about Moroni….

Moroni 10 seems to makes the case pretty clearly, connecting perfection through Christ with the gifts and power of god, and may be one of many reasons why the Church under RMN is defunct.

”if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.”

“if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief”

The teaching that perfection is an eternal attainment and not a gift through Christ - available to us now - leads to unbelief. And through unbelief the power of God is made null in our lives. Booooo.

[endlessQuestions]

I don’t have a full answer, but maybe this snippet from the Lectures on Faith can contribute a small amount:

But notwithstanding all this, [Jesus] kept the law of God, and remained without sin: Showing thereby that it is in the power of man to keep the law and remain also without sin. And also, that by him a righteous judgment might come upon all flesh, and that all who walk not in the law of God, may justly be condemned by the law, and have no excuse for their sins.

Great contribution. Looking into the words the scriptures use to describe Jesus’ “perfection” is an enlightening exercise. That word “sinless” is an important one.

[endlessQuestions]

I’m going with Moroni on this one. (+ BY + Luke) = 3 witnesses

Care to share your line of reasoning? I would be very interested in hearing it. Especially about Moroni….

Moroni 10 seems to makes the case pretty clearly, connecting perfection through Christ with the gifts and power of god, and may be one of many reasons why the Church under RMN is defunct.

”if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.”

“if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief”

The teaching that perfection is an eternal attainment and not a gift through Christ - available to us now - leads to unbelief. And through unbelief the power of God is made null in our lives. Booooo.

Wow. Fantastic point. Thank you very much for taking the time to share that!

[endlessQuestions]

Hint: It might help to ask ourselves if we are justified in saying that the only reason Jesus didn’t include Himself in Matthew 5:48 was that he hadn’t yet died and resurrected. Are there any other reasons he might have chosen to not include himself?

What was his relationship with the Jews, and what did they believe about Him?

How about the Nephites?

[Mamabear]

Hint: It might help to ask ourselves if we are justified in saying that the only reason Jesus didn’t include Himself in Matthew 5:48 was that he hadn’t yet died and resurrected. Are there any other reasons he might have chosen to not include himself?

What was his relationship with the Jews, and what did they believe about Him?

How about the Nephites?

Jesus was sinless and perfect his whole life. Maybe he didn’t include himself because he always glorified the Father?

[Gadianton Slayer]

Hint: It might help to ask ourselves if we are justified in saying that the only reason Jesus didn’t include Himself in Matthew 5:48 was that he hadn’t yet died and resurrected.

This is my thought.

Why?

When he comes to the Nephites after his death and resurrection, and gives the same sermon, he then includes himself.

[TheChristian]

Jesus was the Father spoken of in the Bible, His flesh body was the Son, the Spirit that dwelt in that flesh body was the God of Israel, the Eternal or Everlasting Father................

[Pazooka]

Hint: It might help to ask ourselves if we are justified in saying that the only reason Jesus didn’t include Himself in Matthew 5:48 was that he hadn’t yet died and resurrected. Are there any other reasons he might have chosen to not include himself?

What was his relationship with the Jews, and what did they believe about Him?

How about the Nephites?

There is another possible reason Jesus didn’t include himself in Matt 5:48 and Nightlight is going to love my bringing it up again

Even though Jesus “did no sin” he was still ritually impure under the law because he was born of woman and born onto a fallen plane. He would have needed to be made pure (perfected) just prior to his offering himself a sacrifice for sin.

In Luke 22:43, where “there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him”...when I read that I wonder if it was more than someone just holding his hand. What strength could the Son of God receive? It is my personal belief that this figure could have been the previous link in the chain of “coverage.” I think Jesus received the power and gift of his God that made him a perfect sacrifice.

If that is somewhere close to being the case, it wasn’t death and resurrection that made Jesus perfect just like it won’t be death and resurrection that make us perfect. It would be by the gift and power of our God.

[TheChristian]

Jesus was God before He came to this earth, He was God manifest in the flesh when He walked apon this earth and He showed He was God by paying the price of Sin apon the Cross and arising from the dead........

Whilst in the flesh, He forgave mens sins, Only God could do that...........
He lived a perfect life on earth, only God could do that ...........
He showed He had power over life and death, for He arose from the dead.....Only God could do that....

He was born of a pure virgin, a virgin filled with the Holy ghost at her conception and thus sanctified, she had never known a man.......
Thus that which came from her womb was holy, perfect, she being sanctified and filled with the holy ghost and that which came from her womb being the very God of Heaven and earth manifesting Himself in the flesh.........
Hence there was no ritual impurities, no weakness, just perfect holyness...........

Ah the mystery of Godlyness, God manifest in the flesh,
The pillar and foundation of our faith.............

If the Holy Spirit finds a place in your heart to dwell, then you are perfect, even though your flesh body is imperfect, the Spirit covers your weaknesses and frailties thru the mercies and blood shed by Christ Jesus and aids you bye and bye to over come the world......
Not by might, nor by strength, but by my Spirit says the Lord .....

[marc]

Jesus was God before He came to this earth, He was God manifest in the flesh when He walked apon this earth and He showed He was God by paying the price of Sin apon the Cross and arising from the dead........

Whilst in the flesh, He forgave mens sins, Only God could do that...........
He lived a perfect life on earth, only God could do that ...........
He showed He had power over life and death, for He arose from the dead.....Only God could do that....

He was born of a pure virgin, a virgin filled with the Holy ghost at her conception and thus sanctified, she had never known a man.......
Thus that which came from her womb was holy, perfect, she being sanctified and filled with the holy ghost and that which came from her womb being the very God of Heaven and earth manifesting Himself in the flesh.........
Hence there was no ritual impurities, no weakness, just perfect holyness...........

Ah the mystery of Godlyness, God manifest in the flesh,
The pillar and foundation of our faith.............

If the Holy Spirit finds a place in your heart to dwell, then you are perfect, even though your flesh body is imperfect, the Spirit covers your weaknesses and frailties thru the mercies and blood shed by Christ Jesus and aids you bye and bye to over come the world......
Not by might, nor by strength, but by my Spirit says the Lord .....

That was beautiful.

[Mamabear]

Jesus was the Father spoken of in the Bible, His flesh body was the Son, the Spirit that dwelt in that flesh body was the God of Israel, the Eternal or Everlasting Father................

Do you believe that Heavenly Father, Jesus and the holy ghost comprise one being (the trinity) or that they are separate beings with one purpose?

[TheChristian]

Wether they be Gods and Lords many in the heavens matters not to me,
The only one that is important to me is the God that hung apon the Cross in my stead, for it is His blood and not any others that pays the price for my sins.......................

If there was anything I could say to the LDS church at this time it would be to look to the Cross and the Holy One that hung there and worship Him with all your might, mind and strength and give Him the praise, glory and honor that is rightly His.........
This is the glorious life saving power that will bring to us all the redeeming love of Christ Jesus enabling us all to endure with patience the sorrows and tribulations that this present generation is going through.......

With the knowlegde you have of Christ Jesus right now and if you could be transported back in time to the day He was crucified and joined yourself with the other women that kneeled at the foot of the cross weeping as the blood poured down their Saviours body, then you would like them worship Him as Lord and God forever more.............
You would truly understand why Christ Jesus has been adored, venerated and worshipped thru out the long centuries.............

Just remember whoms blood was spilt and set ones eyes and heart apon Him alone ...........

[nightlight]

Did Jesus ever say worship me from age 30-33? Did He outright say He was God?

No

Did He stop people from calling Him God and Worshiping Him?

No

The Holy Ghost spoke of Jesus while Jesus spoke of the Father(for 3 years among the Jews)


If Jesus did the same works among any other people as He did among the Jews , he would have been worshiped as God and King.... because He is the God King

Being perfect is being cleansed every whit. This is what Jesus was telling us

Nelson misunderstands. Like most Mormons, Nelson looks at perfection as something that he does himself

" I.....never sin"

Vs

"I am washed clean for my sins"

And now it came to pass that according to our record, and we know our record to be true, for behold, it was a just man who did keep the record—for he truly did many dmiracles in the name of Jesus; and there was not any man who could do a miracle in the name of Jesus save he were cleansed every whit from his iniquity