LDS Freedom Forum

I was responding to a question in a thread about which doctrines are taught in the Book of Mormon that the LDS church either competely contradicts, ignores, or twists. Anything you'd add to the list?
———

BoM > anyone can lead you astray, don't trust in the arm of flesh, unless the Spirit dictates (2 Nephi 28:30-31)
LDS > leader cannot lead us astray, we can trust them completely
My essay on this: https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/infal ... f-prophets

BoM > the poorest of saints should not pay but are given (Mosiah 18 outlines a consecrated society)
LDS > if you can't pay rent or buy food, you still need to pay tithing.
LDS > give lip-service to the law of consecration, but do not fully implement it.
My essay on the topic: https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/tithe-the-poor

BoM > clearly outlines the doctrine of Christ and the path to salvation (2 Nephi 31, 3 Nephi 11)
LDS > they have added to this by including "saving" ordinances
Again, another essay: https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/article-of-faith-4

BoM > Gain a testimony first, then preach what the spirit teaches
LDS > A testimony is gain by saying it, which is bearing a false witness
Again, an essay: https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/bearing-false-witness

BoM > Recognizing and calling out secret combinations
LDS > Benson tried to call out Communism, but the LDS church is joining with the NWO, and one world religion
LDS > Listen to government (WTH?)

BoM > use herbs to heal the body
LDS > "here, inject this in your body, it's 'safe and effective'"... need I say more...
LDS > they don't even teach their own doctrine in the WoW (D&C 89)

BoM > Both Nephi and Moroni call out latter-day churches for their fine sanctuaries (2 Nephi 28, Mormon 8)
LDS > They spare no expense. Oaks has given talks that justify the exorbitant amount of $$ spent on temples

BoM > You cannot receive forgiveness if there are poor among you (Mosiah 2-5)
LDS > Oaks has justified church investments because "there will always be poor among us"

BoM > Polygamy = Bad (Jacob 2) "Secret abominations" specifically refer to sexual sin and are all through the BoM.
LDS > "well... an angel w/ flaming sword... *cough, cough* yep, guess it's ok" (Joseph never practiced it btw)

BoM > Defending freedom and the right to choose
LDS > Oaks recently taught that some freedoms must be limited for the greater good
LDS > They are not fighting mandates. They follow all government regulations, which are tyranical

BoM > dark skin was a curse of wickedness, which was lifted when the Lamanites repented (grace always present)
LDS > Withheld blessings from blacks, even went to so far as to say Blacks could only attain servanthood in the Celestial Kingdom

BoM > Infinite atonment
LDS > Brigham taught blood atonement, certain sins were beyond the atonement, required the shedding of a person's blood

BoM > wine for the sacrament
LDS > 1900s, prohibition movement, water (I get it, D&C says water is ok, but the church used wine for 90 years after that)

BoM > meetings held by the spirit
LDS > scripted GC talks, teleprompters, everything is approved, little is off the cuff. You'll notice the PSRs get in trouble when they speak openly. Oaks put his foot in his mouth several times recently.

———
There are also a handful of teachings that get misinterpreted or skewed in LDS culture:

BoM > Who are the gentiles spoken of in 3 Nephi 16, and Ether 12? What happens to them?

BoM > Requiring payment or riches to enter the house of worship (Alma 31, 32) think tithing and temple

BoM > calls out the pride and hypocrisy of latter-day leaders

BoM > Lehi's dream, a man in white led him astray, or left to wander... makes you wonder (sheep and wolves)

BoM > A close study of the latter part of Jacob 5 presents the idea of an apostasy, branches overcoming the root, but this right before the Lord calls his servant(s)—OMAS / 144k?—for the gathering after the tribulations

To be honest, I've been at the point for a while, where the LDS / Brighamite church twists and contradicts just about everything in the Book of Mormon. I work on bringing things out in my posts. I have a few listed here https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/lds/

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑February 2nd, 2022, 7:55 am To be honest, I've been at the point for a while, where the LDS / Brighamite church twists and contradicts just about everything in the Book of Mormon. I work on bringing things out in my posts. I have a few listed here https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/lds/

Thanks for sharing. There are several topics you've noted that I can add to this list.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 2nd, 2022, 8:33 am Thanks for sharing. There are several topics you've noted that I can add to this list.

Oh I agree. I try to keep that list up to date with things I have blogged about. It's by no mean exhaustive. I'm serious about, pick a subject, the the odds are they contradict the BoM. I will meet with missionaries when they will with me. And I'll randomly open up the BoM somewhere to read with them, and I can always find something that contradicts the LDS / Brighamite church, always.

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑February 2nd, 2022, 8:36 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 2nd, 2022, 8:33 am Thanks for sharing. There are several topics you've noted that I can add to this list.

Oh I agree. I try to keep that list up to date with things I have blogged about. It's by no mean exhaustive. I'm serious about, pick a subject, the the odds are they contradict the BoM. I will meet with missionaries when they will with me. And I'll randomly open up the BoM somewhere to read with them, and I can always find something that contradicts the LDS / Brighamite church, always.

The concept of a "Brighamite" church was never in my lexicon. Now it makes much more sense.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 2nd, 2022, 8:51 am The concept of a "Brighamite" church was never in my lexicon. Now it makes much more sense.

Brigham Young changed just about everything, including the structure the church.

https://seekingyhwh.org/2017/07/04/king-brigham/
https://seekingyhwh.org/2020/06/20/much ... -dc-13240/

Bumping this up, just in case anyone had any additional doctrines that come to mind that conflict with the LDS church and the Book of Mormon.

The scriptures teach that people can receive their calling and election and second comforter which is part of the fullness of the gospel.
The church does not teach this. Instead they teach follow the prophet.

The scriptures teach of a servant who prepares the earth and the people for the Lord’s coming (as John the Baptist did).
The church teaches nothing of the sort.

Oh my... I'm reading Benson's talk given in 1986 titled "Cleanse the Inner Vessel" where he states that the church is still under condemnation. (D&C 84) The only two doctrines that Benson focuses on is sexual sin and pride... WTH? There are so many commandments/doctrines that the church doesn't follow.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... l?lang=eng

It's also highly ironic that Benson and Joseph Fielding Smith condemn "sexual immorality", yet still believe Joseph, the founder, was a polygamist. Joseph has to be just beside himself.

I should also add here, I don't present this list to "condemn" the church (I'll let the Lord do that). I do it so that we can learn correct doctrine and truly follow what Benson's original discoursed was intended to do: "cleanse the inner vessel." We cannot love God and live a lie.

In JS day, he let the members put him on trail on a church court. Today if you think the leaders are doing something wrong you get ex'd. Something in deed is very wrong.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 4th, 2022, 7:15 am I should also add here, I don't present this list to "condemn" the church (I'll let the Lord do that). I do it so that we can learn correct doctrine and truly follow what Benson's original discoursed was intended to do: "cleanse the inner vessel." We cannot love God and live a lie.

I appreciate having these inconsistencies in a concise list. Your comment, "We cannot love God and live a lie." hits a cord. My family already spends our dollars with businesses that are freedom loving and tries not to give to any that are not. That said, we have been in a real conundrum of late...

Tithing. I have been raised in the church. I have a testimony of the Book of Mormon. Like many of you, I have been chagrined to see the multiple instances wherein the church has (in my opinion) moved left. I struggle, along with many of you, as to how I am to move forward. I love the gospel, the Lord and truth. Recently I was to teach a primary class on Follow the Prophet. I could not bring myself to do it and it pained me. I taught something else that day. I always felt that IF there were ever a call-out of sorts, that I'd be first in line. Now I question everything. We have been awake to our awful situation for many years, but to see these things happening at our church level is hard to swallow. I'm not read up on Isaiah as much as I should be. I have been reading on the marred servant for several months. Trying to understand and have the Spirit teach me. Can someone provide scripture references that best teach the idea that the church would go astray in the end times and that the Lord would provide someone to fix it?

Back to tithing... I have never had issue with paying tithing. However, I now feel that it's supporting that which I am not happy about - the list for those dollars being misspent goes on and on. However, I do take my covenants very seriously that I made in the temple before God, angels and witnesses. How do you come to grips with this? Do we hang on, paying our tithing, hoping, praying, that the Lord will fix it all soon? Or, do we pay our tithing, like I'd pay a homeless dude on the corner - knowing he's likely to spend the monies given to him on alcohol, but giving anyway. I'm due for my temple recommend interview soon. While I don't plan on attending the temple (due to masking... another falsehood) I feel it important to have my recommend. What do I tell the Bishop when he asks if I sustain President Nelson? I'm not sure that I can wholeheartedly do so. I NEVER imagined that this is how it would play out for me. I've been a very strong member my whole life (now in my 50's). The one positive I see through it all, is that I see us not relying on any man, but having to grow my relationship with Jesus Christ. It has pushed many of us to ONLY rely on Him. --- We cannot love God and live a lie.

LostCreekAcres wrote: ↑February 4th, 2022, 9:43 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 4th, 2022, 7:15 am I should also add here, I don't present this list to "condemn" the church (I'll let the Lord do that). I do it so that we can learn correct doctrine and truly follow what Benson's original discoursed was intended to do: "cleanse the inner vessel." We cannot love God and live a lie.

I appreciate having these inconsistencies in a concise list. Your comment, "We cannot love God and live a lie." hits a cord. My family already spends our dollars with businesses that are freedom loving and tries not to give to any that are not. That said, we have been in a real conundrum of late...

Tithing. I have been raised in the church. I have a testimony of the Book of Mormon. Like many of you, I have been chagrined to see the multiple instances wherein the church has (in my opinion) moved left. I struggle, along with many of you, as to how I am to move forward. I love the gospel, the Lord and truth. Recently I was to teach a primary class on Follow the Prophet. I could not bring myself to do it and it pained me. I taught something else that day. I always felt that IF there were ever a call-out of sorts, that I'd be first in line. Now I question everything. We have been awake to our awful situation for many years, but to see these things happening at our church level is hard to swallow. I'm not read up on Isaiah as much as I should be. I have been reading on the marred servant for several months. Trying to understand and have the Spirit teach me. Can someone provide scripture references that best teach the idea that the church would go astray in the end times and that the Lord would provide someone to fix it?

Back to tithing... I have never had issue with paying tithing. However, I now feel that it's supporting that which I am not happy about - the list for those dollars being misspent goes on and on. However, I do take my covenants very seriously that I made in the temple before God, angels and witnesses. How do you come to grips with this? Do we hang on, paying our tithing, hoping, praying, that the Lord will fix it all soon? Or, do we pay our tithing, like I'd pay a homeless dude on the corner - knowing he's likely to spend the monies given to him on alcohol, but giving anyway. I'm due for my temple recommend interview soon. While I don't plan on attending the temple (due to masking... another falsehood) I feel it important to have my recommend. What do I tell the Bishop when he asks if I sustain President Nelson? I'm not sure that I can wholeheartedly do so. I NEVER imagined that this is how it would play out for me. I've been a very strong member my whole life (now in my 50's). The one positive I see through it all, is that I see us not relying on any man, but having to grow my relationship with Jesus Christ. It has pushed many of us to ONLY rely on Him. --- We cannot love God and live a lie.

With you on all of this

Mamabear wrote: ↑February 4th, 2022, 6:23 am The scriptures teach that people can receive their calling and election and second comforter which is part of the fullness of the gospel.
The church does not teach this. Instead they teach follow the prophet.

...

This is something that has always intrigued me from the time I first started studying it on my mission (decades ago). Everything meaningful from church authority that I could find on it was old. I observed that after the 70s, references to it diminished quickly to where we are today.

There were a few authorities that continued to preach it until their final days, which is probably indicative that they had real experiences with the principle. But the leadership comes out of the body of the church. I wonder if the diminished regard for it just happened organically as fewer and fewer members were pursuing it, leading to less and less general awareness of it.

Today, if I refer to it in church, the reaction generally ranges from skeptical to looking beyond the mark to dangerous deep dark that will lead you astray.

LostCreekAcres wrote: ↑February 4th, 2022, 9:43 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 4th, 2022, 7:15 am I should also add here, I don't present this list to "condemn" the church (I'll let the Lord do that). I do it so that we can learn correct doctrine and truly follow what Benson's original discoursed was intended to do: "cleanse the inner vessel." We cannot love God and live a lie.

I appreciate having these inconsistencies in a concise list. Your comment, "We cannot love God and live a lie." hits a cord. My family already spends our dollars with businesses that are freedom loving and tries not to give to any that are not. That said, we have been in a real conundrum of late...

Tithing. I have been raised in the church. I have a testimony of the Book of Mormon. Like many of you, I have been chagrined to see the multiple instances wherein the church has (in my opinion) moved left. I struggle, along with many of you, as to how I am to move forward. I love the gospel, the Lord and truth. Recently I was to teach a primary class on Follow the Prophet. I could not bring myself to do it and it pained me. I taught something else that day. I always felt that IF there were ever a call-out of sorts, that I'd be first in line. Now I question everything. We have been awake to our awful situation for many years, but to see these things happening at our church level is hard to swallow. I'm not read up on Isaiah as much as I should be. I have been reading on the marred servant for several months. Trying to understand and have the Spirit teach me. Can someone provide scripture references that best teach the idea that the church would go astray in the end times and that the Lord would provide someone to fix it?

Back to tithing... I have never had issue with paying tithing. However, I now feel that it's supporting that which I am not happy about - the list for those dollars being misspent goes on and on. However, I do take my covenants very seriously that I made in the temple before God, angels and witnesses. How do you come to grips with this? Do we hang on, paying our tithing, hoping, praying, that the Lord will fix it all soon? Or, do we pay our tithing, like I'd pay a homeless dude on the corner - knowing he's likely to spend the monies given to him on alcohol, but giving anyway. I'm due for my temple recommend interview soon. While I don't plan on attending the temple (due to masking... another falsehood) I feel it important to have my recommend. What do I tell the Bishop when he asks if I sustain President Nelson? I'm not sure that I can wholeheartedly do so. I NEVER imagined that this is how it would play out for me. I've been a very strong member my whole life (now in my 50's). The one positive I see through it all, is that I see us not relying on any man, but having to grow my relationship with Jesus Christ. It has pushed many of us to ONLY rely on Him. --- We cannot love God and live a lie.

Excellent thoughts. My answer to tithing is a bit more extensive than a small thread comment. I wrote an essay on the subject that you can peruse here: https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/tithe-the-poor

We donate our tithes directly to those who need them. We help locally as well as donate to a friend in Maine who is helping poor people in her community. I visited with her just last week and she was helping a family in her neighborhood that has lost their jobs. She gave them heated blankets, coats, and food. They were in tears. I've never felt this type of overwhelming love when I donated to the LDS church.

Dusty Wanderer wrote: ↑February 4th, 2022, 10:10 am

Mamabear wrote: ↑February 4th, 2022, 6:23 am The scriptures teach that people can receive their calling and election and second comforter which is part of the fullness of the gospel.
The church does not teach this. Instead they teach follow the prophet.

This is something that has always intrigued me from the time I first started studying it on my mission (decades ago). Everything meaningful from church authority that I could find on it was old. I observed that after the 70s, references to it diminished quickly to where we are today.

There were a few authorities that continued to preach it until their final days, which is probably indicative that they had real experiences with the principle. But the leadership comes out of the body of the church. I wonder if the diminished regard for it just happened organically as fewer and fewer members were pursuing it, leading to less and less general awareness of it.

Today, if I refer to it in church, the reaction generally ranges from skeptical to looking beyond the mark to dangerous deep dark that will lead you astray.

The church of today (just like the government) is all about control - they must control everything - every talk, every lesson, everything you see, hear, and do at church and in regards to the church. A person receiving their calling and election, and the 2nd Comforter, has nothing to do with the church organization, and everything to do with the individual and their relationship with Jesus Christ. In other words, the church cannot control these things - so their answer/remedy for that, is to just ignore it completely and not talk about or teach it anymore, and to accuse those who do of "looking beyond the mark", etc. as you mentioned, to try and scare members away from searching and seeking these scriptural and Godly experiences.

LostCreekAcres wrote: ↑February 4th, 2022, 9:43 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 4th, 2022, 7:15 am I should also add here, I don't present this list to "condemn" the church (I'll let the Lord do that). I do it so that we can learn correct doctrine and truly follow what Benson's original discoursed was intended to do: "cleanse the inner vessel." We cannot love God and live a lie.

I appreciate having these inconsistencies in a concise list. Your comment, "We cannot love God and live a lie." hits a cord. My family already spends our dollars with businesses that are freedom loving and tries not to give to any that are not. That said, we have been in a real conundrum of late...

Tithing. I have been raised in the church. I have a testimony of the Book of Mormon. Like many of you, I have been chagrined to see the multiple instances wherein the church has (in my opinion) moved left. I struggle, along with many of you, as to how I am to move forward. I love the gospel, the Lord and truth. Recently I was to teach a primary class on Follow the Prophet. I could not bring myself to do it and it pained me. I taught something else that day. I always felt that IF there were ever a call-out of sorts, that I'd be first in line. Now I question everything. We have been awake to our awful situation for many years, but to see these things happening at our church level is hard to swallow. I'm not read up on Isaiah as much as I should be. I have been reading on the marred servant for several months. Trying to understand and have the Spirit teach me. Can someone provide scripture references that best teach the idea that the church would go astray in the end times and that the Lord would provide someone to fix it?

Back to tithing... I have never had issue with paying tithing. However, I now feel that it's supporting that which I am not happy about - the list for those dollars being misspent goes on and on. However, I do take my covenants very seriously that I made in the temple before God, angels and witnesses. How do you come to grips with this? Do we hang on, paying our tithing, hoping, praying, that the Lord will fix it all soon? Or, do we pay our tithing, like I'd pay a homeless dude on the corner - knowing he's likely to spend the monies given to him on alcohol, but giving anyway. I'm due for my temple recommend interview soon. While I don't plan on attending the temple (due to masking... another falsehood) I feel it important to have my recommend. What do I tell the Bishop when he asks if I sustain President Nelson? I'm not sure that I can wholeheartedly do so. I NEVER imagined that this is how it would play out for me. I've been a very strong member my whole life (now in my 50's). The one positive I see through it all, is that I see us not relying on any man, but having to grow my relationship with Jesus Christ. It has pushed many of us to ONLY rely on Him. --- We cannot love God and live a lie.

Keep seeking the truth directly from God. He will not let you down. Ask Him the questions you have in your heart, especially the hard questions.
You’re right, Isaiah is key to understanding what is happening. It’s all been prophesied. Here are some tools to go along with your study that have helped me:

https://isaiahinstitute.com/
http://www.isaiahexplained.com/1#commentary

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 4th, 2022, 7:10 am Oh my... I'm reading Benson's talk given in 1986 titled "Cleanse the Inner Vessel" where he states that the church is still under condemnation. (D&C 84) The only two doctrines that Benson focuses on is sexual sin and pride... WTH? There are so many commandments/doctrines that the church doesn't follow.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... l?lang=eng

It's also highly ironic that Benson and Joseph Fielding Smith condemn "sexual immorality", yet still believe Joseph, the founder, was a polygamist. Joseph has to be just beside himself.

Well Joseph Fielding Smith had 3 eternal companions sealed to him and was the son of a polygamist.
I doubt he was concerned.
I think Joseph was probably ok with it.

EmmaLee wrote: ↑February 4th, 2022, 10:51 am A person receiving their calling and election, and the 2nd Comforter, has nothing to do with the church organization, and everything to do with the individual and their relationship with Jesus Christ.

Well, there is a relationship between the prophet of the Church and the ordinances given preparatory to receiving their Calling and Election.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 4th, 2022, 7:10 am Oh my... I'm reading Benson's talk given in 1986 titled "Cleanse the Inner Vessel" where he states that the church is still under condemnation. (D&C 84) The only two doctrines that Benson focuses on is sexual sin and pride... WTH? There are so many commandments/doctrines that the church doesn't follow.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... l?lang=eng

It's also highly ironic that Benson and Joseph Fielding Smith condemn "sexual immorality", yet still believe Joseph, the founder, was a polygamist. Joseph has to be just beside himself.

CPM isn’t sexual immorality. As always, it’s being made all about sex.

Of course sex is a part of a marriage. But when you make it out to be the only part of marriage, it reflects on your mind, putting it clearly on display for all to see.

JLHPROF wrote: ↑February 4th, 2022, 12:24 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑February 4th, 2022, 10:51 am A person receiving their calling and election, and the 2nd Comforter, has nothing to do with the church organization, and everything to do with the individual and their relationship with Jesus Christ.

Well, there is a relationship between the prophet of the Church and the ordinances given preparatory to receiving their Calling and Election.

Of course a man may administer ordinances pointing to that glorious blessing. But only the Lord can bestow such a thing, and ratify any ordinance pointing to such.

Luke wrote: ↑February 4th, 2022, 12:26 pm

JLHPROF wrote: ↑February 4th, 2022, 12:24 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑February 4th, 2022, 10:51 am A person receiving their calling and election, and the 2nd Comforter, has nothing to do with the church organization, and everything to do with the individual and their relationship with Jesus Christ.

Well, there is a relationship between the prophet of the Church and the ordinances given preparatory to receiving their Calling and Election.

Of course a man may administer ordinances pointing to that glorious blessing. But only the Lord can bestow such a thing, and ratify any ordinance pointing to such.

True. But is it permitted to happen in reverse?

D&C 84:19 And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.
20 Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.
21 And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;
22 For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.

Or perhaps this is only limited to the Father, not the Son.

JLHPROF wrote: ↑February 4th, 2022, 12:23 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 4th, 2022, 7:10 am Oh my... I'm reading Benson's talk given in 1986 titled "Cleanse the Inner Vessel" where he states that the church is still under condemnation. (D&C 84) The only two doctrines that Benson focuses on is sexual sin and pride... WTH? There are so many commandments/doctrines that the church doesn't follow.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... l?lang=eng

It's also highly ironic that Benson and Joseph Fielding Smith condemn "sexual immorality", yet still believe Joseph, the founder, was a polygamist. Joseph has to be just beside himself.

Well Joseph Fielding Smith had 3 eternal companions sealed to him and was the son of a polygamist.
I doubt he was concerned.
I think Joseph was probably ok with it.

Yes, of course he wasn't too worried about it. Amazing what we can justify through generational tradition.

Luke wrote: ↑February 4th, 2022, 12:25 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 4th, 2022, 7:10 am Oh my... I'm reading Benson's talk given in 1986 titled "Cleanse the Inner Vessel" where he states that the church is still under condemnation. (D&C 84) The only two doctrines that Benson focuses on is sexual sin and pride... WTH? There are so many commandments/doctrines that the church doesn't follow.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... l?lang=eng

It's also highly ironic that Benson and Joseph Fielding Smith condemn "sexual immorality", yet still believe Joseph, the founder, was a polygamist. Joseph has to be just beside himself.

CPM isn’t sexual immorality. As always, it’s being made all about sex.

Of course sex is a part of a marriage. But when you make it out to be the only part of marriage, it reflects on your mind, putting it clearly on display for all to see.

What part of Jacob and producing seed is confusing to you?

JLHPROF wrote: ↑February 4th, 2022, 12:24 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑February 4th, 2022, 10:51 am A person receiving their calling and election, and the 2nd Comforter, has nothing to do with the church organization, and everything to do with the individual and their relationship with Jesus Christ.

Well, there is a relationship between the prophet of the Church and the ordinances given preparatory to receiving their Calling and Election.

Those experiences have nothing to do with the church or any of its supposed "authority", which is why the church of today ignores those topics, and worse, dissuades members from discussing them, as I said.