W. Cleon Skousen - Atonement

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Robin Hood
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W. Cleon Skousen - Atonement

Post by Robin Hood »

I listened to Skousen's famous 1980 talk on the meaning of the atonement the other day. I had heard some say it had changed their lives, or taught them new ways to see things.

At first I was impressed with his perspective, but as I have thought about it a little more over the last couple of days I have been less so.

The basic premise is that because of the Father's strict adherence to the principle of justice we cannot return to him because we are imperfect and stained by this life. If he turned a blind eye and let us in anyway, he would cease to be God, because he is a God of law. I've said elsewhere on the forum that I find this idea problematic, but for the purpose of our current investigation, we'll run with it.
So on that basis, not too much of a problem with this so far.

Then Skousen said that the atonement isn't a quid pro quo. In other words, Christ didn't pay for each and every sin, like every time we sin we're kind of sticking the knife in.
He said that because of Christ's love for us he demonstrated such deep compassion that the Father cannot resist a request from the Son to let us in to his kingdom, despite our failings.

But to my mind that would still be a case of the Father letting us off and therefore breaking his own law of justice. I can't see any way around it. I don't see how Skousen's take on this solves anything.

I would be interested in your thoughts.

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Niemand
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Re: W. Cleon Skousen - Atonement

Post by Niemand »

We stumble and fall all the time. I don't agree with his position, but I also don't agree with the old playground rhyme:
Sin is evil,
and evil is sin;
Sin is forgiven,
So get stuck in!
This misses the whole issue of sincere repentance. As does Skousen.

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marc
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Re: W. Cleon Skousen - Atonement

Post by marc »

My two cents: https://latterdaylamanite.com/2019/04/1 ... od-father/

In summary: It was necessary for Him to take upon Himself flesh, a son of man (Mark 10:45) with the capacity to die. And it was necessary for Him to die unjustly so that He could reclaim His life and all who believe in Him, repenting continually, drawing near to Him, becoming His children through His grace and mercy.

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The Red Pill
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Re: W. Cleon Skousen - Atonement

Post by The Red Pill »

Robin Hood wrote: January 8th, 2022, 11:55 am I listened to Skousen's famous 1980 talk on the meaning of the atonement the other day. I had heard some say it had changed their lives, or taught them new ways to see things.

At first I was impressed with his perspective, but as I have thought about it a little more over the last couple of days I have been less so.

The basic premise is that because of the Father's strict adherence to the principle of justice we cannot return to him because we are imperfect and stained by this life. If he turned a blind eye and let us in anyway, he would cease to be God, because he is a God of law. I've said elsewhere on the forum that I find this idea problematic, but for the purpose of our current investigation, we'll run with it.
So on that basis, not too much of a problem with this so far.

Then Skousen said that the atonement isn't a quid pro quo. In other words, Christ didn't pay for each and every sin, like every time we sin we're kind of sticking the knife in.
He said that because of Christ's love for us he demonstrated such deep compassion that the Father cannot resist a request from the Son to let us in to his kingdom, despite our failings.

But to my mind that would still be a case of the Father letting us off and therefore breaking his own law of justice. I can't see any way around it. I don't see how Skousen's take on this solves anything.

I would be interested in your thoughts.
I used to go to Cleon Skousen's house weekly, as part of a study group, up until his death. Wonderful, amazing man.

My take, based on knowing him, would be he is referring to small things...not big sins that would kick you down a kingdom or two. Things like ego, pride, selfish tendencies, narcissistic tendencies, sins of ommision...things even the most elect often don't have mastered.

He was a firm believer in the "nobody is going to get away with anything" philosophy when we are talking about bigger sins.

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Pazooka
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Re: W. Cleon Skousen - Atonement

Post by Pazooka »

Robin Hood wrote: January 8th, 2022, 11:55 am I listened to Skousen's famous 1980 talk on the meaning of the atonement the other day. I had heard some say it had changed their lives, or taught them new ways to see things.

At first I was impressed with his perspective, but as I have thought about it a little more over the last couple of days I have been less so.

The basic premise is that because of the Father's strict adherence to the principle of justice we cannot return to him because we are imperfect and stained by this life. If he turned a blind eye and let us in anyway, he would cease to be God, because he is a God of law. I've said elsewhere on the forum that I find this idea problematic, but for the purpose of our current investigation, we'll run with it.
So on that basis, not too much of a problem with this so far.

Then Skousen said that the atonement isn't a quid pro quo. In other words, Christ didn't pay for each and every sin, like every time we sin we're kind of sticking the knife in.
He said that because of Christ's love for us he demonstrated such deep compassion that the Father cannot resist a request from the Son to let us in to his kingdom, despite our failings.

But to my mind that would still be a case of the Father letting us off and therefore breaking his own law of justice. I can't see any way around it. I don't see how Skousen's take on this solves anything.

I would be interested in your thoughts.
How does his hypothesis explain the fact that the Lord required the children of Israel to sanctify the Holy Place by the shedding of the blood of animals in order for there to be somewhere sufficiently clean for Him to have place among them?

Why does Jesus’ blood sacrifice empower us in the present and not just give us a pass back into the “presence of God” at the end?

Why does human sacrifice empower the demonic?

It’s all connected. I can’t tell that Skousen’s hypothesis addresses any of it.

onefour1
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Re: W. Cleon Skousen - Atonement

Post by onefour1 »

I was impressed with Skousen's talk when I first heard it back in the early 80's. What I got from it was that there is intelligence in all things and it is those intelligences which demand justice from God. When we sin and fall short of the glory of God, it is all those intelligences that have also been subject to the justice of God that demand the same justice on everyone or everything else. Skousen claims that the atonement, which was not a just punishment upon Jesus since he never sinned, deserved a recompense for the injustice. The recompense for the injustice that Jesus went through was the right to forgive sin on all those who repent and forsake their sins. This being a just recompense appeases the demands of justice of all intelligences since it applies to all and Jesus deserved a recompense. Repentance brings the recipient in line with celestial law and Christ has won the right to forgive for the unjust suffering that he bore. His suffering was for all and his forgiveness can cover all under the conditions of repentance.

WikiUp
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Re: W. Cleon Skousen - Atonement

Post by WikiUp »

I have listened to Cleon's talk many times. Here is what I understand about his premise of the Atonement. Keep in mind Skousen explains in the talk that his Mission President and an Apostle (Widstoe ?) taught him these concepts from the scriptures over a period of some extended years, starting while he was on his England mission until after he had returned from his mission. It took him years of ongoing counsel and scripture study (which he identifies) to learn these concepts.

All matter has intelligence and abides by universal (God's) law. All intelligence expects and requires all other intelligence's (we now humans) to completely abide by universal Law (God's law) to obtain the right to be in God's presence.

Because of "sin", the intelligence's hold that those who did not completely abide by God's laws are not entitled to reside in God's presence. The intelligence's require God to be consistent in this principle. Should God not remain consistent, the trust in Godhood would be lost by the intelligence's and God would cease to be God. Since "sin" was inevitable, something had to be done to convince the intelligence's to overlook the "sin's" based upon their respect for Christ.

Christ's atonement violated the justice principle by Christ being unjustly punished when Christ had done nothing to qualify for such punishment. The condition was unjust and offends all intelligence's. The intelligence's want to compensate Christ for his unjust punishments as a way of demanding justice to "right the wrong."

Because Christ was unjustly punished, Christ can and does appeal to all intelligence's to allow otherwise imperfect beings to enter God's presence on the basis of mercy. Mercy being based on the fact that Christ was unjustly punished and therefore can appeal to the intelligence's to accept Christ's request of them to allow those who repent and agree to follow the Father and the Son fore-ever-more to be allowed to enter God's presence; thus "righting the wrong."

Because of the respect and "love" for Christ based on their experiences and trust in and for him and their offended sense of his totally unjust punishment, .Christ can appeal to all intelligence's to over-ride justice and submit to mercy (overlooking/forgiving sin) based on Christ's request to all intelligence's.

Per Skousen, the atonement is not about" paying" for sin. The Atonement is the way Christ can request mercy to over come justice (forgiveness - overlook the shortcomings of "sinner's") from the intelligence's (based on Christ's extreme unjust punishments). Christ can convince all intelligence's to agree to accept Christ's request to allow "repentant sinners who have pledged to no-longer-sin" to enter The Father's presence. The Atonement is a way for Christ to convince all intelligence's that he wants "repentant sinner's" to be able to enter God's presence and since he was unjustly punished (breaking the universal law of just) he request all intelligence's to offset that injustice by honoring his request to apply mercy.

I am not able to fully explain the concepts presented by Cleon Skousen. Please listen to the talk with the above concepts in mind. I think you will come to understand what Cleon is explaining much better than I.

Listen to the talk with that concept in mind.

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Pazooka
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Re: W. Cleon Skousen - Atonement

Post by Pazooka »

WikiUp wrote: January 8th, 2022, 8:02 pm I have listened to Cleon's talk many times. Here is what I understand about his premise of the Atonement. Keep in mind Skousen explains in the talk that his Mission President and an Apostle (Widstoe ?) taught him these concepts from the scriptures over a period of some extended years, starting while he was on his England mission until after he had returned from his mission. It took him years of ongoing counsel and scripture study (which he identifies) to learn these concepts.

All matter has intelligence and abides by universal (God's) law. All intelligence expects and requires all other intelligence's (we now humans) to completely abide by universal Law (God's law) to obtain the right to be in God's presence.

Because of "sin", the intelligence's hold that those who did not completely abide by God's laws are not entitled to reside in God's presence. The intelligence's require God to be consistent in this principle. Should God not remain consistent, the trust in Godhood would be lost by the intelligence's and God would cease to be God. Since "sin" was inevitable, something had to be done to convince the intelligence's to overlook the "sin's" based upon their respect for Christ.

Christ's atonement violated the justice principle by Christ being unjustly punished when Christ had done nothing to qualify for such punishment. The condition was unjust and offends all intelligence's. The intelligence's want to compensate Christ for his unjust punishments as a way of demanding justice to "right the wrong."

Because Christ was unjustly punished, Christ can and does appeal to all intelligence's to allow otherwise imperfect beings to enter God's presence on the basis of mercy. Mercy being based on the fact that Christ was unjustly punished and therefore can appeal to the intelligence's to accept Christ's request of them to allow those who repent and agree to follow the Father and the Son fore-ever-more to be allowed to enter God's presence; thus "righting the wrong."

Because of the respect and "love" for Christ based on their experiences and trust in and for him and their offended sense of his totally unjust punishment, .Christ can appeal to all intelligence's to over-ride justice and submit to mercy (overlooking/forgiving sin) based on Christ's request to all intelligence's.

Per Skousen, the atonement is not about" paying" for sin. The Atonement is the way Christ can request mercy to over come justice (forgiveness - overlook the shortcomings of "sinner's") from the intelligence's (based on Christ's extreme unjust punishments). Christ can convince all intelligence's to agree to accept Christ's request to allow "repentant sinners who have pledged to no-longer-sin" to enter The Father's presence. The Atonement is a way for Christ to convince all intelligence's that he wants "repentant sinner's" to be able to enter God's presence and since he was unjustly punished (breaking the universal law of just) he request all intelligence's to offset that injustice by honoring his request to apply mercy.

I am not able to fully explain the concepts presented by Cleon Skousen. Please listen to the talk with the above concepts in mind. I think you will come to understand what Cleon is explaining much better than I.

Listen to the talk with that concept in mind.
So, instead of the exalted God Almighty, it is the unorganized intelligences who hold ultimate power and authority? That sounds exactly backward. Talk about children being one’s oppressors.

Peeps
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Re: W. Cleon Skousen - Atonement

Post by Peeps »

Robin Hood wrote: January 8th, 2022, 11:55 am I listened to Skousen's famous 1980 talk on the meaning of the atonement the other day. I had heard some say it had changed their lives, or taught them new ways to see things.

At first I was impressed with his perspective, but as I have thought about it a little more over the last couple of days I have been less so.

The basic premise is that because of the Father's strict adherence to the principle of justice we cannot return to him because we are imperfect and stained by this life. If he turned a blind eye and let us in anyway, he would cease to be God, because he is a God of law. I've said elsewhere on the forum that I find this idea problematic, but for the purpose of our current investigation, we'll run with it.
So on that basis, not too much of a problem with this so far.

Then Skousen said that the atonement isn't a quid pro quo. In other words, Christ didn't pay for each and every sin, like every time we sin we're kind of sticking the knife in.
He said that because of Christ's love for us he demonstrated such deep compassion that the Father cannot resist a request from the Son to let us in to his kingdom, despite our failings.

But to my mind that would still be a case of the Father letting us off and therefore breaking his own law of justice. I can't see any way around it. I don't see how Skousen's take on this solves anything.

I would be interested in your thoughts.
I used to love Cleon Skousen, read all of his 'Thousand years' series books, "The Naked Communist," "The Naked Capitalist," "Fantastic Victory," etc.

Now, I have come to the realization that the LDS Church does not really understand, nor teaches about what the really atonement is. It was to pay for our wrong decision to take on a flesh body in the preexistence. The Church teaches this was a good thing, an opportunity even. If the Church had ever really understood the atonement of Christ, there would have never been a chance for the false "Blood Atonement" doctrine BY taught, or the viseral, Dracula-like reactions to seeing a cross (I have personally witnessed), no LDS member would be confused about whether the Atonement really took place in the Garden of Gethsesame, or on the cross.

When Christ said "it is finished" in John 19:30, He meant it.

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and He bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

In the Greek it is:

Strong’s Definitions
τελέω teléō, tel-eh'-o; from G5056; to end, i.e. complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt):—accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.

That is why Jesus Christ can have the grace to save a mere thief on a cross who had done no good works, or saving ordinances (that we can know of), for the mere act of acknowledging who He was.

The reason Jesus Christ did this atonement is because the flesh was a trap set by satan and the rebellious third in the preexistence. It came with a set of rules that must be obeyed, mistakes either paid for in blood, or with the eternal soul. I suppose we all thought we could handle being in the flesh, and did not stop to think about how strong all the temptations would be, the suffering, pain, sicknesses, lusts, greed, that were inherently in the flesh, and we agreed to it probably against the Father's advice.

I'm sure satan/Lucifer made being in a flesh body sound like a fabulous experience. Or maybe we were taken prisoners of the war in Heaven, it was probably a combo scenario, but apparently, we were in the wrong before we were born. We had already committed sin, and fell spiritually before Adam's fall in the flesh-- because we listened to Lucifer before we were born, otherwise, we would not have been fated to be in a flesh body that was sentenced to ultimately die. We needed a Savior because we had already doomed ourselves and we were not born completely innocent. Psalms 139 says we were in the lowest parts of the earth before we are born.

13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.


Because we left our first estate to come here, we now have to be adopted back to the Father by being spiritually reborn. Like Jesus told Nicodemus in John chapter 3.

1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


This is why Paul said in Romans 8:

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.



All of this has been settled in Heaven. It is why Christ was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. This world would not exist if Christ had not been willing to die first. Revelation chapter 5 and chapter 13 establishes this.

Chapter 5:6, 12

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth...

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.


Chapter 13:8 "

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The fate of this world and those who pertain to it, has already been settled in Heaven. It was finished before Jesus said "it is finished" as He died on a cross. Things play out in the flesh after they are already done in the spirit.

That is the reason for rituals, that is also why the satanists are constantly doing them to make their "chaos magick" our reality. The flesh is like being trapped in a cube, or a box. Like the Alice in Chains' song, "Man in a Box:"

I'm the man in the box
Buried in my sh*ttakemushrooms
Won't you come and save me?
Save me
Feed my eyes
(Can you sew them shut?)
Jesus Christ
(Deny your maker)
He who tries
(Will be wasted)
Oh, feed my eyes
(Now you've sewn them) shut...


They mock our Saviour, because they know, yet they love this world and being in the flesh. They hate Him without a cause, because they have made satan their god, as it says in John 15:23-25:

23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.

24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.


When one unfolds a box, it makes a cross. A cross for us to cross over into immorality. That is why the cross is so beautiful. 1 Cor 1:

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God...

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

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Pazooka
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Re: W. Cleon Skousen - Atonement

Post by Pazooka »

Peeps wrote: January 8th, 2022, 9:43 pm
Robin Hood wrote: January 8th, 2022, 11:55 am I listened to Skousen's famous 1980 talk on the meaning of the atonement the other day. I had heard some say it had changed their lives, or taught them new ways to see things.

At first I was impressed with his perspective, but as I have thought about it a little more over the last couple of days I have been less so.

The basic premise is that because of the Father's strict adherence to the principle of justice we cannot return to him because we are imperfect and stained by this life. If he turned a blind eye and let us in anyway, he would cease to be God, because he is a God of law. I've said elsewhere on the forum that I find this idea problematic, but for the purpose of our current investigation, we'll run with it.
So on that basis, not too much of a problem with this so far.

Then Skousen said that the atonement isn't a quid pro quo. In other words, Christ didn't pay for each and every sin, like every time we sin we're kind of sticking the knife in.
He said that because of Christ's love for us he demonstrated such deep compassion that the Father cannot resist a request from the Son to let us in to his kingdom, despite our failings.

But to my mind that would still be a case of the Father letting us off and therefore breaking his own law of justice. I can't see any way around it. I don't see how Skousen's take on this solves anything.

I would be interested in your thoughts.
I used to love Cleon Skousen, read all of his 'Thousand years' series books, "The Naked Communist," "The Naked Capitalist," "Fantastic Victory," etc.

Now, I have come to the realization that the LDS Church does not really understand, nor teaches about what the really atonement is. It was to pay for our wrong decision to take on a flesh body in the preexistence. The Church teaches this was a good thing, an opportunity even. If the Church had ever really understood the atonement of Christ, there would have never been a chance for the false "Blood Atonement" doctrine BY taught, or the viseral, Dracula-like reactions to seeing a cross (I have personally witnessed), no LDS member would be confused about whether the Atonement really took place in the Garden of Gethsesame, or on the cross.

When Christ said "it is finished" in John 19:30, He meant it.

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and He bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

In the Greek it is:

Strong’s Definitions
τελέω teléō, tel-eh'-o; from G5056; to end, i.e. complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt):—accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.

That is why Jesus Christ can have the grace to save a mere thief on a cross who had done no good works, or saving ordinances (that we can know of), for the mere act of acknowledging who He was.

The reason Jesus Christ did this atonement is because the flesh was a trap set by satan and the rebellious third in the preexistence. It came with a set of rules that must be obeyed, mistakes either paid for in blood, or with the eternal soul. I suppose we all thought we could handle being in the flesh, and did not stop to think about how strong all the temptations would be, the suffering, pain, sicknesses, lusts, greed, that were inherently in the flesh, and we agreed to it probably against the Father's advice.

I'm sure satan/Lucifer made being in a flesh body sound like a fabulous experience. Or maybe we were taken prisoners of the war in Heaven, it was probably a combo scenario, but apparently, we were in the wrong before we were born. We had already committed sin, and fell spiritually before Adam's fall in the flesh-- because we listened to Lucifer before we were born, otherwise, we would not have been fated to be in a flesh body that was sentenced to ultimately die. We needed a Savior because we had already doomed ourselves and we were not born completely innocent. Psalms 139 says we were in the lowest parts of the earth before we are born.

13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.


Because we left our first estate to come here, we now have to be adopted back to the Father by being spiritually reborn. Like Jesus told Nicodemus in John chapter 3.

1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


This is why Paul said in Romans 8:

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.



All of this has been settled in Heaven. It is why Christ was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. This world would not exist if Christ had not been willing to die first. Revelation chapter 5 and chapter 13 establishes this.

Chapter 5:6, 12

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth...

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.


Chapter 13:8 "

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The fate of this world and those who pertain to it, has already been settled in Heaven. It was finished before Jesus said "it is finished" as He died on a cross. Things play out in the flesh after they are already done in the spirit.

That is the reason for rituals, that is also why the satanists are constantly doing them to make their "chaos magick" our reality. The flesh is like being trapped in a cube, or a box. Like the Alice in Chains' song, "Man in a Box:"

I'm the man in the box
Buried in my sh*ttakemushrooms
Won't you come and save me?
Save me
Feed my eyes
(Can you sew them shut?)
Jesus Christ
(Deny your maker)
He who tries
(Will be wasted)
Oh, feed my eyes
(Now you've sewn them) shut...


They mock our Saviour, because they know, yet they love this world and being in the flesh. They hate Him without a cause, because they have made satan their god, as it says in John 15:23-25:

23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.

24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.


When one unfolds a box, it makes a cross. A cross for us to cross over into immorality. That is why the cross is so beautiful. 1 Cor 1:

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God...

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
Me and every other Mormon I know be like:
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Rubicon
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Re: W. Cleon Skousen - Atonement

Post by Rubicon »

The big thing that the Skousen explanation does is explain the how and the why of the atonement, using scriptures from the BoM, PoGp,and D&C. When people criticize it (e.g., McConkieite Mormons), I ask them if Christ's suffering was necessary. Could God have done something completely different. "No, He had to satisfy the demands of justice." He's God --- why does He have to satisfy anything? Who or what constitutes "the demands of justice?"

I think the intelligences explanation is really the only one,and Skousen was the one to connect the dots between the scriptures. God's "honor is His power." What makes Him God is that the intelligences fully trust Him to be perfectly just. If He disappoints them, then He ceases to be God (Alma 42), and everything falls apart.

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Robin Hood
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Re: W. Cleon Skousen - Atonement

Post by Robin Hood »

WikiUp wrote: January 8th, 2022, 8:02 pm I have listened to Cleon's talk many times. Here is what I understand about his premise of the Atonement. Keep in mind Skousen explains in the talk that his Mission President and an Apostle (Widstoe ?) taught him these concepts from the scriptures over a period of some extended years, starting while he was on his England mission until after he had returned from his mission. It took him years of ongoing counsel and scripture study (which he identifies) to learn these concepts.

All matter has intelligence and abides by universal (God's) law. All intelligence expects and requires all other intelligence's (we now humans) to completely abide by universal Law (God's law) to obtain the right to be in God's presence.

Because of "sin", the intelligence's hold that those who did not completely abide by God's laws are not entitled to reside in God's presence. The intelligence's require God to be consistent in this principle. Should God not remain consistent, the trust in Godhood would be lost by the intelligence's and God would cease to be God. Since "sin" was inevitable, something had to be done to convince the intelligence's to overlook the "sin's" based upon their respect for Christ.

Christ's atonement violated the justice principle by Christ being unjustly punished when Christ had done nothing to qualify for such punishment. The condition was unjust and offends all intelligence's. The intelligence's want to compensate Christ for his unjust punishments as a way of demanding justice to "right the wrong."

Because Christ was unjustly punished, Christ can and does appeal to all intelligence's to allow otherwise imperfect beings to enter God's presence on the basis of mercy. Mercy being based on the fact that Christ was unjustly punished and therefore can appeal to the intelligence's to accept Christ's request of them to allow those who repent and agree to follow the Father and the Son fore-ever-more to be allowed to enter God's presence; thus "righting the wrong."

Because of the respect and "love" for Christ based on their experiences and trust in and for him and their offended sense of his totally unjust punishment, .Christ can appeal to all intelligence's to over-ride justice and submit to mercy (overlooking/forgiving sin) based on Christ's request to all intelligence's.

Per Skousen, the atonement is not about" paying" for sin. The Atonement is the way Christ can request mercy to over come justice (forgiveness - overlook the shortcomings of "sinner's") from the intelligence's (based on Christ's extreme unjust punishments). Christ can convince all intelligence's to agree to accept Christ's request to allow "repentant sinners who have pledged to no-longer-sin" to enter The Father's presence. The Atonement is a way for Christ to convince all intelligence's that he wants "repentant sinner's" to be able to enter God's presence and since he was unjustly punished (breaking the universal law of just) he request all intelligence's to offset that injustice by honoring his request to apply mercy.

I am not able to fully explain the concepts presented by Cleon Skousen. Please listen to the talk with the above concepts in mind. I think you will come to understand what Cleon is explaining much better than I.

Listen to the talk with that concept in mind.
You explained his concept better than I did.
However, I don't really think it helped because it appears Skousen is teaching that the intelligences are God's boss. He has to appease them and make sure his approval rating remains high and consistent. If, in their judgement he falters, the games up and he ceases to be God.... because the intellegences "say so".
An additional problem as I see it is that justice is not served. Skousen's explanation robs justice because it extends mercy at it's expense.
He tells a nice story at the end about a mother pleading to Abraham Lincoln for the life of her son and how mercy was extended to him because of the compassion for the mother, but again justice is robbed because the penalty for the dead troops lost lives is abandoned.
I have personally concluded that Skousen's attempt to explain the atonement is inadequate.
Last edited by Robin Hood on January 9th, 2022, 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: W. Cleon Skousen - Atonement

Post by Robin Hood »

Pazooka wrote: January 8th, 2022, 9:24 pm
WikiUp wrote: January 8th, 2022, 8:02 pm I have listened to Cleon's talk many times. Here is what I understand about his premise of the Atonement. Keep in mind Skousen explains in the talk that his Mission President and an Apostle (Widstoe ?) taught him these concepts from the scriptures over a period of some extended years, starting while he was on his England mission until after he had returned from his mission. It took him years of ongoing counsel and scripture study (which he identifies) to learn these concepts.

All matter has intelligence and abides by universal (God's) law. All intelligence expects and requires all other intelligence's (we now humans) to completely abide by universal Law (God's law) to obtain the right to be in God's presence.

Because of "sin", the intelligence's hold that those who did not completely abide by God's laws are not entitled to reside in God's presence. The intelligence's require God to be consistent in this principle. Should God not remain consistent, the trust in Godhood would be lost by the intelligence's and God would cease to be God. Since "sin" was inevitable, something had to be done to convince the intelligence's to overlook the "sin's" based upon their respect for Christ.

Christ's atonement violated the justice principle by Christ being unjustly punished when Christ had done nothing to qualify for such punishment. The condition was unjust and offends all intelligence's. The intelligence's want to compensate Christ for his unjust punishments as a way of demanding justice to "right the wrong."

Because Christ was unjustly punished, Christ can and does appeal to all intelligence's to allow otherwise imperfect beings to enter God's presence on the basis of mercy. Mercy being based on the fact that Christ was unjustly punished and therefore can appeal to the intelligence's to accept Christ's request of them to allow those who repent and agree to follow the Father and the Son fore-ever-more to be allowed to enter God's presence; thus "righting the wrong."

Because of the respect and "love" for Christ based on their experiences and trust in and for him and their offended sense of his totally unjust punishment, .Christ can appeal to all intelligence's to over-ride justice and submit to mercy (overlooking/forgiving sin) based on Christ's request to all intelligence's.

Per Skousen, the atonement is not about" paying" for sin. The Atonement is the way Christ can request mercy to over come justice (forgiveness - overlook the shortcomings of "sinner's") from the intelligence's (based on Christ's extreme unjust punishments). Christ can convince all intelligence's to agree to accept Christ's request to allow "repentant sinners who have pledged to no-longer-sin" to enter The Father's presence. The Atonement is a way for Christ to convince all intelligence's that he wants "repentant sinner's" to be able to enter God's presence and since he was unjustly punished (breaking the universal law of just) he request all intelligence's to offset that injustice by honoring his request to apply mercy.

I am not able to fully explain the concepts presented by Cleon Skousen. Please listen to the talk with the above concepts in mind. I think you will come to understand what Cleon is explaining much better than I.

Listen to the talk with that concept in mind.
So, instead of the exalted God Almighty, it is the unorganized intelligences who hold ultimate power and authority? That sounds exactly backward. Talk about children being one’s oppressors.
You're right. God rules and he doesn't have to answer to intelligences, or anyone else for that matter. I think Skousen is wrong.

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Re: W. Cleon Skousen - Atonement

Post by Rubicon »

So, what is the source of God's power, then? Why does He have to satisfy the demands of justice (or any demands, for that matter)?

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Re: W. Cleon Skousen - Atonement

Post by Robin Hood »

Rubicon wrote: January 9th, 2022, 8:21 am So, what is the source of God's power, then? Why does He have to satisfy the demands of justice (or any demands, for that matter)?
He doesn't, but chooses to. In fact he has promised to, so being an honourable man he won't go back on his word.
Justice served us well in the pre-existence so we were all in favour of it. It's only here that justice is our worst nightmare. We need justice like we need a hole in the head.
The source of God's power is God. He doesn't need an outside source, he is the self-existent one. He needs permission from no one and answers to no one.
This is the character we address as God the Eternal Father.

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Re: W. Cleon Skousen - Atonement

Post by Rubicon »

Robin Hood wrote: January 9th, 2022, 9:23 am
Rubicon wrote: January 9th, 2022, 8:21 am So, what is the source of God's power, then? Why does He have to satisfy the demands of justice (or any demands, for that matter)?
He doesn't, but chooses to. In fact he has promised to, so being an honourable man he won't go back on his word.
Justice served us well in the pre-existence so we were all in favour of it. It's only here that justice is our worst nightmare. We need justice like we need a hole in the head.
The source of God's power is God. He doesn't need an outside source, he is the self-existent one. He needs permission from no one and answers to no one.
This is the character we address as God the Eternal Father.
That doesn't make any sense to me. Then He could also choose to just arbitrarily let us come back into His presence, without consequence. The Book of Mormon talks about scenarios where God would cease to be God.

I think the intelligences, and the honor they give God as the source of His power, is more reasonable,and certainly more scriptural. There is a reason why the plan of salvation, with the need for the sacrifice of a Savior, is Tre way it has been done in other worlds, too. God has constraints, too, or He would cease to be God.

That's why explanations that dismiss intelligences have no explanatory power to me. The explanations become, "Well, God can do anything he wants." Why have His Only Begotten Son suffer so terribly then, if He could have done whatever He wants? Why did nature and the elements react so violently at the injustice and absurdity of it all when Christ died (He was universally known and revered as God along with His Father from the Council in Heaven and pre-existence).

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Re: W. Cleon Skousen - Atonement

Post by Obrien »

Robin Hood wrote: January 8th, 2022, 11:55 am I listened to Skousen's famous 1980 talk on the meaning of the atonement the other day. I had heard some say it had changed their lives, or taught them new ways to see things.

At first I was impressed with his perspective, but as I have thought about it a little more over the last couple of days I have been less so.

The basic premise is that because of the Father's strict adherence to the principle of justice we cannot return to him because we are imperfect and stained by this life. If he turned a blind eye and let us in anyway, he would cease to be God, because he is a God of law. I've said elsewhere on the forum that I find this idea problematic, but for the purpose of our current investigation, we'll run with it.
So on that basis, not too much of a problem with this so far.

Then Skousen said that the atonement isn't a quid pro quo. In other words, Christ didn't pay for each and every sin, like every time we sin we're kind of sticking the knife in.
He said that because of Christ's love for us he demonstrated such deep compassion that the Father cannot resist a request from the Son to let us in to his kingdom, despite our failings.

But to my mind that would still be a case of the Father letting us off and therefore breaking his own law of justice. I can't see any way around it. I don't see how Skousen's take on this solves anything.

I would be interested in your thoughts.
RH - I have not listened to that talk for a few years, but have listened to it numerous times. As I recall, Skousen posits that God the Father has a requirement to uphold law and justice in order to have all of creation (those little bits of element infused with intelligence "EIWI") remain in order because they choose to do so.
The Atonement of Christ was such a sacrifice that it has the capacity to touch the sense of mercy in each and every EIWI. This mercy is the operative force that allows an imperfect being to abide God's presence. This mercy only applies to those who accept Jesus as their savior.
Thus, because all creation allows imperfect beings to dwell with God, it is not a violation of law - it is an instance of love and mercy being fully operative.

Hope that helps - in my opinion, this is about the only mormon talk worth understanding since the King Follett discourse.

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Re: W. Cleon Skousen - Atonement

Post by Obrien »

Peeps wrote: January 8th, 2022, 9:43 pm
Robin Hood wrote: January 8th, 2022, 11:55 am I listened to Skousen's famous 1980 talk on the meaning of the atonement the other day. I had heard some say it had changed their lives, or taught them new ways to see things...

I would be interested in your thoughts.
I used to love Cleon Skousen, read all of his 'Thousand years' series books, "The Naked Communist," "The Naked Capitalist," "Fantastic Victory," etc....

Lots of interesting stuff from Peeps

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.[/i]
Peeps - No disrespect intended by editing your post (as a mobile user, long quotes are troublesome for me).

Hitting the "👍 up" only did not seem a robust enough positive response to the effort you put into your response, which was both interesting and thought provoking.

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Re: W. Cleon Skousen - Atonement

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Robin Hood wrote: January 8th, 2022, 11:55 am I listened to Skousen's famous 1980 talk on the meaning of the atonement the other day. I had heard some say it had changed their lives, or taught them new ways to see things.

At first I was impressed with his perspective, but as I have thought about it a little more over the last couple of days I have been less so.

The basic premise is that because of the Father's strict adherence to the principle of justice we cannot return to him because we are imperfect and stained by this life. If he turned a blind eye and let us in anyway, he would cease to be God, because he is a God of law. I've said elsewhere on the forum that I find this idea problematic, but for the purpose of our current investigation, we'll run with it.
So on that basis, not too much of a problem with this so far.

Then Skousen said that the atonement isn't a quid pro quo. In other words, Christ didn't pay for each and every sin, like every time we sin we're kind of sticking the knife in.
He said that because of Christ's love for us he demonstrated such deep compassion that the Father cannot resist a request from the Son to let us in to his kingdom, despite our failings.

But to my mind that would still be a case of the Father letting us off and therefore breaking his own law of justice. I can't see any way around it. I don't see how Skousen's take on this solves anything.

I would be interested in your thoughts.
I have come to disbelieve the idea of a perfect life.

Christ commanded us to be perfect even as He and Father are perfect.

If perfect meant never sinning, we would all be unable ever to be perfect. Even if we are cleansed from our sin thru the blood of Christ, we still could not be perfect in the same way we believe Christ and Father to be perfect.

I have come to see perfection as a path. No matter what we have done, if we can enter the path and never stray from it again, we have become perfect in every way that matters.

I also believe that in the very act of straying and seeing what a mess we make of things when we follow our own willful disobedience, this is part of the perfection process.

We don't submit our wills in any slavish, agency sacrificing way. We make our will His willl because we know it is the path that will lead us to ultimate happiness, joy, perfection upon perfection.

I no longer believe the atonement means one being paying the price for another. I believe the atonement was a demonstration of willingly sacrificing all, even our lives if it is the will of the Father. the Father being the one who wants our ultimate best outcome, which is perfection. The atonement was "If it be Thy will let this cup pass from me BUT NEVERTHELESS not my will but Thine be done."

I know this flies in the face of the atonement as we have been taught all of our lives.

I do believe the willing submission and crucifixion of the Savior did give Him the privilege of sitting upon the Mercy Seat. Mercy cannot rob justice, but mercy can lay a JUST claim upon us, and both mercy and justice can be satisfied. So ys, this also is an aspect of the atonement that involves one paying a price for another. I believe this is why there are at least two definitions of salvation.

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Re: W. Cleon Skousen - Atonement

Post by Robin Hood »

Rubicon wrote: January 9th, 2022, 9:52 am
Robin Hood wrote: January 9th, 2022, 9:23 am
Rubicon wrote: January 9th, 2022, 8:21 am So, what is the source of God's power, then? Why does He have to satisfy the demands of justice (or any demands, for that matter)?
He doesn't, but chooses to. In fact he has promised to, so being an honourable man he won't go back on his word.
Justice served us well in the pre-existence so we were all in favour of it. It's only here that justice is our worst nightmare. We need justice like we need a hole in the head.
The source of God's power is God. He doesn't need an outside source, he is the self-existent one. He needs permission from no one and answers to no one.
This is the character we address as God the Eternal Father.
That doesn't make any sense to me. Then He could also choose to just arbitrarily let us come back into His presence, without consequence. The Book of Mormon talks about scenarios where God would cease to be God.

I think the intelligences, and the honor they give God as the source of His power, is more reasonable,and certainly more scriptural. There is a reason why the plan of salvation, with the need for the sacrifice of a Savior, is Tre way it has been done in other worlds, too. God has constraints, too, or He would cease to be God.

That's why explanations that dismiss intelligences have no explanatory power to me. The explanations become, "Well, God can do anything he wants." Why have His Only Begotten Son suffer so terribly then, if He could have done whatever He wants? Why did nature and the elements react so violently at the injustice and absurdity of it all when Christ died (He was universally known and revered as God along with His Father from the Council in Heaven and pre-existence).
It doesn't make sense because you are conflating god with God.
The God I am referring to is the self-existent uncreated one. He requires no law. He is the great lawgiver; he gives laws but doesn't receive them. It's a one-way street.
The being you describe is god. An exalted and created being like Adam/Michael etc. The being described by Joseph in the King Follett sermon is a god who was once a man and is subject to law. The god who can cease to be god described in the Book of Mormon is in this category.
This would apply to Adam, Jehovah etc and was possibly even Lucifer's status before the rebellion.
But God the Eternal Father is THE God. The clue is in the title. Eternity is a function of time going forward AND backwards. This God we pray to has always been the Eternal Father. There never was a time when he wasn't. Therefore, those who become god through the process of exaltation are subject to the conditions (law) of exaltation, but the self existent Eternal Father is above and beyond that.

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Re: W. Cleon Skousen - Atonement

Post by Pazooka »

Rubicon wrote: January 9th, 2022, 8:21 am So, what is the source of God's power, then? Why does He have to satisfy the demands of justice (or any demands, for that matter)?
I would have thought the temple endowment answered that. Power is extended, like an unbroken chain, down through the generations from the exalted glorious beings who were our predecessors, not from the unorganized, unglorified soup of intelligences below.

God “satisfies the demands of justice” because there are covenants and contracts to be kept, not with the intelligence soup but with real, organized, glorified beings...of whom Satan used to be one (I, Lehi, according to the things high I have read, must needs suppose than an angel of God...had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil)

And we’re not even scratching the nature of blood sacrifice, which is something far greater than a penal substitute (which is all Skousen seems to see).

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Re: W. Cleon Skousen - Atonement

Post by Robin Hood »

Pazooka wrote: January 9th, 2022, 11:01 am
Rubicon wrote: January 9th, 2022, 8:21 am So, what is the source of God's power, then? Why does He have to satisfy the demands of justice (or any demands, for that matter)?
I would have thought the temple endowment answered that. Power is extended, like an unbroken chain, down through the generations from the exalted glorious beings who were our predecessors, not from the unorganized, unglorified soup of intelligences below.

God “satisfies the demands of justice” because there are covenants and contracts to be kept, not with the intelligence soup but with real, organized, glorified beings...of whom Satan used to be one (I, Lehi, according to the things high I have read, must needs suppose than an angel of God...had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil)

And we’re not even scratching the nature of blood sacrifice, which is something far greater than a penal substitute (which is all Skousen seems to see).
I don't think Skousen was advocating that the atonement was a simple penal substitute. In fact he was saying that penal substitution is a false idea. He's right about that, but his explanation of what it is doesn't cut the mustard.

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Re: W. Cleon Skousen - Atonement

Post by Pazooka »

Robin Hood wrote: January 9th, 2022, 11:10 am
Pazooka wrote: January 9th, 2022, 11:01 am
Rubicon wrote: January 9th, 2022, 8:21 am So, what is the source of God's power, then? Why does He have to satisfy the demands of justice (or any demands, for that matter)?
I would have thought the temple endowment answered that. Power is extended, like an unbroken chain, down through the generations from the exalted glorious beings who were our predecessors, not from the unorganized, unglorified soup of intelligences below.

God “satisfies the demands of justice” because there are covenants and contracts to be kept, not with the intelligence soup but with real, organized, glorified beings...of whom Satan used to be one (I, Lehi, according to the things high I have read, must needs suppose than an angel of God...had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil)

And we’re not even scratching the nature of blood sacrifice, which is something far greater than a penal substitute (which is all Skousen seems to see).
I don't think Skousen was advocating that the atonement was a simple penal substitute. In fact he was saying that penal substitution is a false idea. He's right about that, but his explanation of what it is doesn't cut the mustard.
If you know of where he states penal substitution is false, please share.

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Re: W. Cleon Skousen - Atonement

Post by Robin Hood »

Pazooka wrote: January 9th, 2022, 12:41 pm
Robin Hood wrote: January 9th, 2022, 11:10 am
Pazooka wrote: January 9th, 2022, 11:01 am
Rubicon wrote: January 9th, 2022, 8:21 am So, what is the source of God's power, then? Why does He have to satisfy the demands of justice (or any demands, for that matter)?
I would have thought the temple endowment answered that. Power is extended, like an unbroken chain, down through the generations from the exalted glorious beings who were our predecessors, not from the unorganized, unglorified soup of intelligences below.

God “satisfies the demands of justice” because there are covenants and contracts to be kept, not with the intelligence soup but with real, organized, glorified beings...of whom Satan used to be one (I, Lehi, according to the things high I have read, must needs suppose than an angel of God...had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil)

And we’re not even scratching the nature of blood sacrifice, which is something far greater than a penal substitute (which is all Skousen seems to see).
I don't think Skousen was advocating that the atonement was a simple penal substitute. In fact he was saying that penal substitution is a false idea. He's right about that, but his explanation of what it is doesn't cut the mustard.
If you know of where he states penal substitution is false, please share.
He talks about the quid pro quo idea of Jesus paying for each of our sins being false. He said it isn't like every time we have sinned we have increased Christ's pain and suffering.
He then points out that Amulek stated that one person cannot suffer the punishment due another. It doesn't work that way.
That is penal substitution.

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Pazooka
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Re: W. Cleon Skousen - Atonement

Post by Pazooka »

Justice = the administration of the law

“By the law men are cut off” (2 Ne 2:5)

“The Holy Messiah...offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law” (2 Ne 2:6,7)

How do you divide the light from the dark? With law.

How do you keep the light and dark separated? With law.

Without the law there is no heaven, goodness or happiness because sin and misery could not be kept separate from it.

Who administers the law? Kings.

We had to become separate from God, under the law, in order to come together with Him through Jesus in order to create a new being - a Son of God. Divine alchemy. Jesus is the ingredient needed to turn us into gold.

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