I can’t bring myself to date

[HVDC]

Thanks for this post! I didn't realize there were other guys on this site in that situation. I would like to ask another question for anyone who wants to answer. What are some suggestions on how to find dates? I am out of school, work from home, and cannot make online dating work. Social media has become so cancerous to our society that a significant number of women will not date men unless they have enough followers on Instagram. That is not a joke. I personally don't do any social media and don't really want to start just so I have enough clout for a date.

Get fit.

Dress well, ask random girls for advice on what to wear.

Style and fashion is something girls in general like to talk about.

Good ice breaker.

Learn to flirt.

Have fun with it.

Practice making eye contact with every girl you see that you like the looks of.

Smile.

Waitresses and cashiers as flirted with regularly.

As long as you are not rude, they usually don't mind.

Tip well.

Compliment something they are wearing.

Gives you a legitimate excuse to look at them.

Their hair.

Make up.

Tattoo.

Don't worry if she is in a relationship or not.

She will let you know, but will usually be flattered anyway.

Be genuine.

Be nice, but never needy.

The song "girls just wanna have fun" is generally true.

Don't ask for phone numbers.

If they like you.

They will offer it to you.

Ask them out if you want too.

If not, move on.

Every encounter will teach you something.

It's okay if you get rejected.

Don't take it personal.

There can be many reasons for that.

Most of them have nothing to do with you.

Remember, you are the prize.

Relationships are very important for women.

Even the most jaded women wants one.

Women can go it alone, but deep down they don't want too.

Every single one, unless they are atypical, no matter how pretty, is insecure.

That is a good thing.

Because if that wasn't the case.

We would never get a date.

They are not men who look different.

Don't expect them to be.

Have fun with playing with them.

And they will too.

Then your problem will be.

You will have too many.

Sir H

[Gadianton Slayer]

Thanks for this post! I didn't realize there were other guys on this site in that situation. I would like to ask another question for anyone who wants to answer. What are some suggestions on how to find dates? I am out of school, work from home, and cannot make online dating work. Social media has become so cancerous to our society that a significant number of women will not date men unless they have enough followers on Instagram. That is not a joke. I personally don't do any social media and don't really want to start just so I have enough clout for a date.

You could try the door-to-door approach

[mudflap]

After marrying a girl that the Spirit said, "you could marry her" and then getting divorced after she continued to cheat on me, I went looking for something real and found a traditional woman and all that entails. Can't say enough good about her. She was divorced as well, and was sick of the games, the lies, the empty promises, the laziness and abuse of previous husbands. I quit my job as a top tier technician at the phone company and moved 1700 miles to marry her. Got a job answering phones for $10 / hr at a doctor's office, and haven't looked back.

On all the LDS themed dating websites, I found the same thing you found with Utah mormon girls. It's nauseating. When I found my wife, I knew she was different right away. I wanted different, so it was worth the move.

She wanted a real man - one that can fix cars, build a house, get her computer to work, play piano for her, and be a good father and husband. I'm working on it.... When y'all "ooh" and "ahh" over the cabin, just know she's the one encouraging greatness by saying, "go build me a house, honey!" when I'm feeling a bit unmotivated. It's the house that true love built.

Falling in love with a married woman twice your age is concerning, so listen to Trucker.

TradLife, TradWife.

[Cruiserdude]

After marrying a girl that the Spirit said, "you could marry her" and then getting divorced after she continued to cheat on me, I went looking for something real and found a traditional woman and all that entails. Can't say enough good about her. She was divorced as well, and was sick of the games, the lies, the empty promises, the laziness and abuse of previous husbands. I quit my job as a top tier technician at the phone company and moved 1700 miles to marry her. Got a job answering phones for $10 / hr at a doctor's office, and haven't looked back.

On all the LDS themed dating websites, I found the same thing you found with Utah mormon girls. It's nauseating. When I found my wife, I knew she was different right away. I wanted different, so it was worth the move.

She wanted a real man - one that can fix cars, build a house, get her computer to work, play piano for her, and be a good father and husband. I'm working on it.... When y'all "ooh" and "ahh" over the cabin, just know she's the one encouraging greatness by saying, "go build me a house, honey!" when I'm feeling a bit unmotivated. It's the house that true love built.

Falling in love with a married woman twice your age is concerning, so listen to Trucker.

TradLife, TradWife.

Awesome story.
The Lord truly is the Great Orchestrator, He is in control if we allow Him. If we keep focus on the Savior and focus on trying to be like Him and helping His sheep, He will lead us to the people or lead the people to us that He wants in our lives. Whether that's marriage, friendships in righteousness, etc. But the focus HAS TO STAY ON HIM. That's where I've erred in the past and what I know I have to keep my focus on...solely on Him.

And heard a pastor the other day say: 'Happy spouse, happy house'.... And I loved it

[Durzan]

Okay, so here’s the thing… there are a lot of issues with the concepts of masculinity and femininity both traditional and modern, but in different ways. It’s all BS. What you need is something in the middle.

[Durzan]

Just my (female) perspective.

I was raised in a non-Mormon family. Born in PA and raised east coast. Spent some time working in NY. My circle was definitely liberal Left, woke, and 'feminist' in the worst sense.

It was only when I started to fall in love with the guy I eventually married (TBM) and had long talks with him and his youngest brother (active in the MGTOW movement) that I started to realize that feminism had become a cover for a wholesale campaign to demonize and disempower masculinity.

So, I have totally changed my views on the male/female dynamic in the last seven or eight years. I see modern feminism as a fraud.

But I don't think the solution is to get women to 'submit' to men or to become childlike and dependent. Or finding wives from foreign countries who will be basically accustomed to being abused. That's just perpetuating more wrongness. I think the solution is genuine equality., where men and women don't require stereotypes to conform to but can simply be themselves.

Left to ourselves we all will find a natural role and neither sex will feel oppressed or subservient to the other.

Amen 100%!

[Juliet]

All women have an ugly side. Otherwise Shakespeare's classic "The taming of the Shrew" would not be a classic. Tell Adam about it, apparently he also had a hard time with his wife.

[tmac]

Men are from Mars and women are from Venus, but most people don't figure that out until it's too late, and in the meantime act mostly on all the hormones and the stuff that triggers them. It's called the Lord's great bait and switch.

[LostCreekAcres]

I know a few men how looked for LDS girls overseas, mostly under developed countries. They tend to have a more traditional mindset and are less materialistic as even a poor person in the USA lives better than most poor people in the world.

I know of someone in this same mindset. Just be aware that getting anyone into the good old U.S. A. can be problematic unless they want to come in from the southern border. My friend tells me it could take years for her to get here.

[anonymous91]

Recent issues have given us quite a few filters to take into consideration while trying to find a partner

- no mask
- unvaxxed
- takes responsibility for their health
- doesn’t trust government
- loves Jesus more than ever
- trusts God above men

Lucky me, I’m 20 still got plenty of time, I’m not worrying about the dating world atm. Keep your eyes open and you’ll find the right person when the Lord needs you to. That’s how I’ve felt promoted to approach this.

Good points, I think it's much harder for the younger generation to date now than it was when I was younger. The world has changed a lot over the last 20+ years.

Another huge issue that needs to be addressed is the world's ideology of embracing the natural man, including many in the Church. I am constantly surprised at how many Church members are not only supportive of Same-Sex marriage (even though it can never be a marriage), but they for some reason think that there is nothing wrong with it. So yet another can of worms to open up on a date.

There are also misconceptions of what marriage is or ought to be, especially if you have never been married before. I can say that I definitely had no idea what I was getting into the first time around. Here is some advice for those of you that are in the dating world right now though.

1- Take your time, don't rush it. Study a little psychology and know what red flags to look out for. The last thing you want to do is shoot yourself in the foot and marry someone with some serious psychological issues. I'd recommend a year or two of consistent dating to really get to know the other person. If they have psychological issues you'll start recognizing red flags. To get you started here's a fun article to read:

https://shrink4men.com/2012/03/27/the-t ... rincesses/

2- Realize what marriage is, and what you plan to bring to the table. A good marriage is about a lot of things that are working well together. This includes at the top of the list good, effective communication. Both of you need to be able to effectively communicate with each other, listen to each other, and respect one another's opinions. That doesn't mean you necessarily agree constantly, but you ought to, at the very least, respect and allow your partner to have their own opinions.

Go into the marriage with the attitude that you are going to put her needs first. Of course, if you are marrying the right person she ought to be doing the same thing. If not, the song "Highway to Hell" is going to take on a whole other meaning for you. In a healthy marriage, both partners ought to do their best to put their partner's needs first, and things will naturally work out as you are both selflessly serving each other. The problem comes when one party is taking advantage of the other, and it becomes a very abusive one-sided relationship.

3- During counseling I learned a different acronym for CTR that is very appropriate. CTR stands for - Commitment, Trust, and Respect. All 3 of these ought to be part of a healthy relationship. Both of you should be fully committed for the long haul, and go in with the mentality that sometimes things are going to get really hard. There are going to be good days, and there are going to be really bad days. Trust is extremely important in a relationship and very easy to break. Sometimes that trust can be permanently broken in a marriage, and that marriage is doomed. Respect is very important as it is what will hold you together through the rough patches.

4- Know what your deal breakers are, and stick with them while looking for a spouse. Believe it or not, but at the end of the day, a good marriage is worth its weight in gold. I would much rather that my sons marry someone that is semi-attractive and have an amazing great marriage than to have them marry an extremely attractive woman that treats them like garbage. The problem with a lot of us men (I'm speaking from experience), is that we tend to let a womans' beauty have more power than it ought to. In other words, there have been many men that have married the wrong woman because she was beautiful, even though the relationship was horrible. It either ends up in divorce or a lot of pain and misery.

Do yourself a favor, and avoid the trap. Focus on the qualities that she has, and brings to the relationship. It's better to marry a woman with a heart of gold than it is to marry a beautiful woman just for the sake of beauty. At the end of the day, beauty fades and all that remains is how you treat each other.

5 - Some people don't want to leave the town they grew up in, or want to live close to their parents. This can have ramifications on what jobs you can take, where you live, and your quality of life. All things to consider prior to getting into a serious relationship.

6- Be on the same page with Finances. This is a huge issue in today's society. Both of you ought to decide beforehand how finances will be handled. If she expects to stay home and raise the kids, have a game plan in place that will accommodate this. If you both plan on working, plan on how you will raise your kids. Many a marriage has been ruined over two people having very different plans when it comes to money. I would advise being educated on some basic principles when it comes to money. A good place to start with is listening to Dave Ramsey and Robert Kiyosaki. Gives you a place to start with that gives you a couple of different perspectives of how to make wise moves when it comes to finances.

7- Decide how you will raise your kids, and what values are important to you. This will include your deal breakers. For example, some people think that you should not spank a child regardless of the situation or age, others strongly disagree with that. Something as simple as this can cause a lot of problems when you are in the midst of a marriage, and both of you have two very different ideas on how to raise your kids. What values do you want to instill with your children will have an impact on their lives and will help to mold and shape who they are, and how they interact with others. This ought to be part of the conversation when things start getting serious. Who is going to be there taking care of the kids, how is this going to look? What type of values do you want to instill in your children?

8- Do not try to be a White Knight, do not try to save someone from themselves. Do not expect to fix someone else. You have to be willing to accept the other person just as they are flaws, warts, and all. This should be a two-way street though. Of course, it's best if both of you are willing to continually work on supporting each other in being the best versions of yourself that you can be. There is a huge difference between being supportive of your Spouse's goals to be the best version of themselves vs. trying to fix what annoys you about your spouse. Understanding the difference is key. You should be willing to continue working on making positive changes in your life that you feel are important to you, and hopefully, your spouse will want to do the same. You ought to let each other decide what is important, rather than to try to point out each other's flaws.

9 - Set expectations of what each of you expects out of the marriage? Find out how each of you was raised, and what you agree/disagree with. Talk about what you expect a typical day/week/month to look like. Have something that triggers you, better let her know before you get too serious. Ask each other how you handle difficult situations, so you know what to expect. Not be blindsided like me, and find yourself on the receiving end of a Butcher Knife (true story).

These are just a few things to consider when looking into getting into a serious relationship with the end goal of getting married. This is a good place to start having those difficult conversations before you get married. This is why it is important to really get to know each other before committing to each other. Good relationships can work, they just take a lot of work and patience. Good Luck!

[anonymous91]

All women have an ugly side. Otherwise Shakespeare's classic "The taming of the Shrew" would not be a classic. Tell Adam about it, apparently he also had a hard time with his wife.

I think this Bible verse sums it up well: Proverbs 21:19

It is better to dwell in the wilderness, than with a contentious and an angry woman.

[anonymous91]

I know a few men how looked for LDS girls overseas, mostly under developed countries. They tend to have a more traditional mindset and are less materialistic as even a poor person in the USA lives better than most poor people in the world.

I know of someone in this same mindset. Just be aware that getting anyone into the good old U.S. A. can be problematic unless they want to come in from the southern border. My friend tells me it could take years for her to get here.

Well, my ex was from one of those underdeveloped countries. I can tell you that was not my personal experience at all.

In fact, she was much more materialistic than just about anyone I've ever met. She grew up dirt poor but refused to go without and it always had to be the fancy stores, no second-hand stores for her. SMH

Of course, what I have learned since then is that each individual is unique, and your culture only plays a part in who you truly are as an individual. Just because you were raised in poverty doesn't necessarily mean that you are going to be meek and humble, some are and some aren't. Just as if you are raised in poverty doesn't mean you can't be successful in life. The same goes for many of the generalities thrown around.

I remember a story about two brothers raised by an abusive drunk father, mother had left them at a very young age. Years went by, and one brother ended up in jail for life and the other ended up being a very successful white-collar worker. A reporter asked each of them a question: How did you end up like this when you were raised under the conditions that you were?

The brothers had been questioned individually and were unaware that this reporter had spoken to both of them.

Both brothers gave the same answer to her question. They both answered, "What do you expect being raised the way that I was." One brother seemed to use it as an excuse for the crimes that he had committed and had followed in his father's footsteps. The other brother used it to motivate him, and he vowed to never let his children go through the same experience. Both were raised in the same environment, culture, and opportunities. It's our choices that truly determine our character. Most people have baggage, how we deal with it, is what is truly important.

I can say that dating outside of the US is a much different experience, especially for older men. It is not uncommon to see men in their 50s and 60s dating women in their 20s. There is a huge social stigma here in the US about that, and it is not viewed well Stateside. The way foreign women see it is much different than how it is viewed here though.

For starters, many foreign women prefer older men for several practical reasons. First, and foremost is that older men are typically more stable and financially secure than younger men. These young women also understand that older men are less likely to be promiscuous and cheat on them, which is a huge problem in many of these underdeveloped countries. Additionally, they value the wisdom and experience that older men have and bring to the relationship especially when it comes to communication.

Here is what is not discussed a lot though. Most of these foreign women prefer the age gap to be minimal though (think 10-12 year gap) when they are being completely honest. However, in the poorest parts of the country, there are some that will date a man of any age due to how desperate they are. They know that if they can move to America, that they can provide their future posterity with a better life than they could ever hope to provide them in their own country. So, there is a strong motivation behind this. Of course, this opens the door for the woman to leave her husband once she has established citizenship, but this is not a common occurrence as some would have you believe. My educated guess is that some of these women truly love their husbands regardless of the age difference, and some just silently suffer in the marriage.

Of course, even in undeveloped countries, this is more nuanced. There seems to typically be a poor, middle, and upper class even in these countries. If the woman is considered upper class, the only reason she would ever be dating a foreigner is that she really has feelings for you, she doesn't gain anything socially or otherwise. The middle class is a toss-up, and the poor class is where the majority of foreign marriages happen.

I lived overseas for a while, so I picked up a few things, and find it interesting. I can definitely see the allure of dating overseas. Especially for older men who don't get the time of day from any woman Stateside. It is a breath of fresh air for them to be able to go on dates with an attractive young woman that is genuinely interested in them.

At the end of the day, most of us just want to be loved and be loved. How that happens is up to you. I think dating outside of the US is just as challenging as dating in the US it's just very different and has its pros and cons. I think the hardest thing for older men dating younger women is to find a woman that is marrying you for the right reasons, that is the real challenge. Sure, most men can get into a relationship and marry a foreign woman, but is the relationship genuine? That matters to me, and I think to most people. Just my 2 cents.

Hope this helps anyone out who is looking into dating overseas.

[Thinker]

Okay, so here’s the thing… there are a lot of issues with the concepts of masculinity and femininity both traditional and modern, but in different ways. It’s all BS. What you need is something in the middle.

Yeah, kind of. You need someone who’s a good match in the verbal ring.
Most of the 80 years together will be communicating - ok not necessarily all verbal but hopefully you know what I mean. Relationships are based on relating.

I was listening to a podcast by Bill Burr & his wife, Nia. Bill explained what I saw as they interacted… he dated for years and most girls were either too nice or too toxic. Nia was kind and had a way with humor when things got too argumentative but also held her own.



From another thread:

Good relationship advice…

Why we marry the wrong person: In spouse we want familiar suffering over unfamiliar ideals. Learn to respond more maturely, realize nobody’s perfect but many are good enough - all must compromise & gracefully negotiate/communicate needs etc. “Anyone you love will be this mix of good and bad… A stranger often can see in 10 minutes all our flaws & insecurities that we do not see in a lifetime.” [Especially if we aren’t open to searching our souls.] Have realistic expectations - expect relationships to be mutual teaching/learning work - love is a skill you need to learn. Addiction is avoiding relating with self, which hampers relating with others.

“You cannot have imperfection & company. To be in company with another person is to be negotiating imperfection every day… [Before committing keep your eyes wide open then afterwards, 1/2 shut.] To love is to have the willingness to interpret someone’s not very appealing behavior on the surface to find more benevolent reasons why it might be unfolding.”

https://youtu.be/-EvvPZFdjyk

If I ever do a “take 2”, I’ll try to apply the basics of this book “How to avoid falling in love with a jerk” by taking it s l o w.

[Thinker]

Water meets its own level.
Opposites may attract in some ways, but it seems self esteem (& self discipline) levels tend to meet.

[EvanLM]

well, at least, you know what you want. That's good. The men in my family tend to marry older. We used to tease my cousin's girlfriend that he would finally marry her when he went on social security. . . they were in their twenties when we teased her . . .this was 40 years ago . . . .some men in my family remain single and they are not gay . . .one is gay, I think he is, he is also a PITA

[tmac]

The thing is, once upon a time membership in the LDS Church provided some degree of commonality in terms of fundamental values, beliefs, grounding, etc. But at this point even the church is so all over the map and increasingly in bed with the world, that church membership provides less and less basis for any fundamental commonality.

[Silas]

The thing is, once upon a time membership in the LDS Church provided some degree of commonality in terms of fundamental values, beliefs, grounding, etc. But at this point even the church is so all over the map and increasingly in bed with the world, that church membership provides less and less basis for any fundamental commonality.

Not only that but you typically end up with the worst of both worlds. She still wants you to be the breadwinner but she now expects you to do half of the cooking and cleaning and not make any decisions without her approval.

I’ve started telling guys they are better off with a straight up feminist than the average Mormon princess, because at least then she will chip in with the bills.

[Silas]

I’ve read this forum for a while. You people are a lot more rational and understanding than most people I have met in real life. So I want to talk to you about some things that I haven’t even discussed with my family or friends.

I have a serious problem which is the following: I cannot for the life of me find interest in girls my age, whether LDS or not. No I am not gay – I am very straight. However the young women of this generation don’t seem to be like others. There is a certain aura that just seems off. What I mean is that I don’t feel warmth around these young women, nor do I feel any kind of femininity, innocence, or gentleness about them. Rather it seems that these girls have bought into an entirely different idea of what it means to be a female. In my experience they are often vainglorious, aggressive, promiscuous, entitled, fake, vulgar, and ego driven. This can be seen most noticeably on social media.

Now let me be clear that I am not excusing the young men of this generation, who equally leave something to be desired. I am not saying that I am the perfect man, either. However the YW of today should not be excused as innocent of the worldly behaviors that have plagued our generation, they are as entrenched in the world as anyone. Because of this I have a very hard time bringing myself to even attempt dating at this point. It seems like I am only setting myself up for disappointment. In the last few years I have been on a few dates only, and I just never seem to feel a connection to any kind of feminine energy. It makes me sad because I know that the union of male and female is one of the most powerful things in this world.

This is very personal, but I have only really loved one woman before. She was twice my age (mid-early forties), and yes, she loved me back. I don’t care to get in the specifics of how this happened, but yes she was married (the relationship was abusive) and no we did not cross any serous lines. She was an extremely faithful member of the church, beyond any TBM I’ve met, and genuinely a good person who would not betray her faith for anything. Most of all, she was a woman and she acted like it. You might be wondering why I, in my twenties, would have feelings for someone in their forties. The reason is that she was more “girly” than anyone 20 years younger than her. She was kind, pretty, virtuous, genuine, loving, playful, and innocent. She didn’t have to try, she just was.

I know many women like this, and they are all at least 35 years old or so. No I do not have some weird fetish for older women. If I found a girl my age who acted this way then I would fall for her in an instant. But I have yet to find anything resembling this in the young women of today. Acting demure, classy, or even slightly deferential toward any man seems like a foreign concept to them. It is getting to the point where seeing a girl smile is an anomaly- they’re always mad about something. I find that it’s harder to act like a man when they behave this way; it rather makes me just want to give up and not even try to interact with them. I don’t think that my standards are high; they would be considered normal 25 years ago before feminism, social media, and hormone-imbalance chemicals have destroyed all that is good and wholesome.

And as I said, this is a problem with the world, but LDS women are not immune. The only thing that really separates our religion’s maidens is the added layer of entitlement and self pedestalizing. The aura of self-importance is simply nauseating at this point, particularly for those YW who have served missions. I had a sister missionary tell me that missions are more of a sacrifice for women than they are for men because “unlike Elders, we don’t have to go.” Mormon girls casually tell me how they will not date any man unless they “have served a mission, are over 5’11 tall, make over $150k, are fit, have a good face, and give me everything I want.” Even though I possess some, but certainly not all, of these prerequisites, the mentality strikes me as very vapid and worldly, which is the real turn-off.

Now I must say that all this is just as much men’s faults for their “simp” like behavior as anything else. From prophet to deacon, modern men bend over backwards to provide any amount of positive attention, opportunity, and material contributions to women in the hopes that some of it will be reciprocated in the form of romantic interest (to no avail, obviously.) This in turn has spoiled women, giving them de facto permission to act this way with no consequences. So while this post may seem like a laundry list of complaints against women, the reality is that I am angry towards men for letting it get this bad.

We as men have allowed ourselves to be completely dominated by women in every sphere of existence, and because of this, both sexes are miserable. It’s time to remember that God created man and women with specific roles, and this is the way we are to be happy and productive. When we deviate from them, we become bitter, miserable, and hateful toward the other. I have committed to be a better man so that, if there still exists some girl out there with a shred of femininity, I will be ready to be a worthy husband for her. Until then, I don’t know what else to do.

There are many women who still want the traditional family life. Wise women see that feminism has created a lot of misery and destroyed many families.

But the man has to lead. There is no way around it. Be prepared to teach a young woman the right way and convince her to give up worldly ways. Women are desperate for men who have backbones and who are so committed to principle that they aren’t scared of offending anyone, including them, to stick to it.

There are women who clearly understand and you’ve just got to let your light shine so that they can find you, and there are many women who don’t consciously understand what’s wrong but they know something is and they will respond well to leadership.

Above all exercise faith, dedicate yourself to the path of righteousness and ask Heavenly Father to send you an honorable woman that you can lead. The situation is difficult but it is far from hopeless.

[anonymous91]

The thing is, once upon a time membership in the LDS Church provided some degree of commonality in terms of fundamental values, beliefs, grounding, etc. But at this point even the church is so all over the map and increasingly in bed with the world, that church membership provides less and less basis for any fundamental commonality.

Not only that but you typically end up with the worst of both worlds. She still wants you to be the breadwinner but she now expects you to do half of the cooking and cleaning and not make any decisions without her approval.

I’ve started telling guys they are better off with a straight up feminist than the average Mormon princess, because at least then she will chip in with the bills.

Yea, somewhere along the line some feminists convinced a bunch of women that they were slaving away in the home. Furthermore, there are those that are the impression that staying home and taking care of the kids is harder than working a traditional job. That is why there is that attitude among some women.

Fortunately, there are still women that take pride in having a clean home, cooking for their family, and are glad they are in the position to stay home and raise the kids. Research shows repeatedly that kids raised by their mothers have the best chance of being successful later on in life. It's a blessing if you are able to make it a reality nowadays though, that is to be able to allow your wife the choice to stay home and raise the children.

I raised my kids on my own since my youngest was 7, and I'll straight up tell you taking care of the cooking, cleaning, and raising the kids is much easier and more preferred than the jobs I did. So, in my experience staying home is the easier of the two responsibilities. I would have rather much stayed at home cooking, cleaning, and raising my kids than working a soul-sucking job, of course, I never had the option or choice to do so.

I call complete BS on anyone (women or otherwise) who thinks that these chores are more difficult than working a full-time job. Of course, there are those that can make it more difficult, but they are choosing to do so if they realize it or not. For example, when I have my supplies are properly organized I can clean a bathroom top to bottom in under 5 minutes flat. Of course, you can also decide to be super detailed and turn that into a 4-5 hour job, the choice is up to you. Compound that for all of the daily chores required to run a household, and you can see that the problem typically lies with efficiency, a lack of being taught how to clean properly, or other issues. Bottom line, once you get an efficient process down, daily chores can be done in under an hour with the proper system.

I find it funny when you find out what some of these people are complaining about, and what they are actually doing all day, I've experienced it first hand, and heard about it from several friends who have also experienced it. I'll emphasize that this is some parents. They are plopping their kids in front of a tv and then spending hours on Facebook or other Social media sites, playing online games, or other frivolous activities. A few minutes before the spouse gets home, throws a few things in the washer, throws something in the microwave then complains about how hard his/her day was. Yea, really hard making all of those posts on FB, lol. Seriously, I've witnessed this first hand.

Anyways best of luck to anyone getting into the dating game, it's like walking through a minefield nowadays.

[HVDC]

The thing is, once upon a time membership in the LDS Church provided some degree of commonality in terms of fundamental values, beliefs, grounding, etc. But at this point even the church is so all over the map and increasingly in bed with the world, that church membership provides less and less basis for any fundamental commonality.

Not only that but you typically end up with the worst of both worlds. She still wants you to be the breadwinner but she now expects you to do half of the cooking and cleaning and not make any decisions without her approval.

I’ve started telling guys they are better off with a straight up feminist than the average Mormon princess, because at least then she will chip in with the bills.

Only half?

You've got a keeper!

Sir H

[White]

I am a young adult in a rural area of the United States. My experience is similar to other young men here. In prayer I have searched for answers, the Lord told me to go look at this website. I was surprised to find this thread! I believe that those of us saints who know younger people should start pooling our resources, and making connections with like-minded people.

We have some of the things to look for:

Recent issues have given us quite a few filters to take into consideration while trying to find a partner

- no mask
- unvaxxed
- takes responsibility for their health
- doesn’t trust government
- loves Jesus more than ever
- trusts God above men

Lucky me, I’m 20 still got plenty of time, I’m not worrying about the dating world atm. Keep your eyes open and you’ll find the right person when the Lord needs you to. That’s how I’ve felt promoted to approach this.

I have been busy trying this over the past year, because unlike Gadianton Slayer I do not believe in "plenty of time" I fear the future will get crazier sooner. After seeing this thread I will attempt to make a point to you all. Right now we are at a hell of a time to be alive, the line between people who are holding onto the iron rod is becoming ever-more clear. I did meet many different women from each one of these types. I met young local saints in my corner of the United States. I gauged their feelings on the things going on in society. It was amazing, most of them were exactly as I feared, enthralled in social media, and doing exactly as they are told. However I did find a woman who met all of my requirements "no mask, unvaxxed, takes responsibility for their health" We got along very well at first. However someone meeting your bare minimum requirements does not make them the best candidate for you to spend eternity with. We disagreed on small things and we found out that our personalities just were not compatible. We were both scared about ever meeting anyone else out there who would even be remotely close to the right thing in this wild world so we stayed together for a lot longer. Eventually the differences between the two of us became unavoidable, we started arguing and being unable to even talk about similar things with each other. We separated and she moved out west to meet more saints, sadly I doubt she will find anyone there.

Now we will talk about my experiences meeting non-saints who believed similar things about the world. I put my name out there online and basically said "Hey, i'm not getting vaccinated." I did find a woman who met all of my requirements "no mask, unvaxxed, takes responsibility for their health." Eventually I found out that spiritually she was able to listen and learn about Christ. She did live a couple hundred miles away from me, but she and I had a lot in common emotionally. I came to find out in her younger years she had committed some serious sexual sins. I came to find out she was involved with drugs, and often she went to parties and went out drinking with friends. Though we were both very similar, my beliefs made us incompatible. She and I stopped talking after I told her how she would have to change and repent if we could ever be in a romantic relationship.

Now we will talk about my experiences meeting saints who believed similar things about the world over-seas. I met a girl who lived in a third-world country. She was raised a muslim, but she had been converted to the Church. She met all of my requirements "no mask, unvaxxed, takes responsibility for their health." However as we got closer I began to see just how much her relationship with her large family affected her. She often went to ceremonies and gatherings with her muslim family, even though she was Christian. Her family was somewhat dangerous and violent, but she still wanted to be with them. We could not be together because of her relationship with her family.

We stand at the edge of a great change this "virus" and "vaccine" and all of the accompanying societal dangers are all just precursors to the upcoming dangers. Many people can see this, and food storage is becoming a bit more popular. However the time that we are currently in is also like the sky between night and day. At twilight the shadows grow longer and darkness engulfs the land reminding us that night is soon at hand, yet at the hilltops and highest points you can see the sunlight gracing the treetops. Even though the darkness is becoming so prevalent, it has only managed to make the light more noticeable.

However as I have shown these hilltops and treetops are not automatically the best places for us young people to set down and make our homes. I suggest that we all get together as many young people as we can on this forum and see what comes out of it. There is a much higher probability of finding the kind of person that is best for you when you are given a large number of people to choose from.

[BroJones]

I am a young adult in a rural area of the United States. My experience is similar to other young men here. In prayer I have searched for answers, the Lord told me to go look at this website. I was surprised to find this thread! I believe that those of us saints who know younger people should start pulling our resources, and making connections with like-minded people.

We have some of the things to look for:

Recent issues have given us quite a few filters to take into consideration while trying to find a partner

- no mask
- unvaxxed
- takes responsibility for their health
- doesn’t trust government
- loves Jesus more than ever
- trusts God above men

Lucky me, I’m 20 still got plenty of time, I’m not worrying about the dating world atm. Keep your eyes open and you’ll find the right person when the Lord needs you to. That’s how I’ve felt promoted to approach this.

I have been busy trying this over the past year, because unlike Gadianton Slayer I do not believe in "plenty of time" I fear the future will get crazier sooner. After seeing this thread I will attempt to make a point to you all. Right now we are at a hell of a time to be alive, the line between people who are holding onto the iron rod is becoming ever-more clear. I did meet many different women from each one of these types. I met young local saints in my corner of the United States. I gauged their feelings on the things going on in society. It was amazing, most of them were exactly as I feared, enthralled in social media, and doing exactly as they are told. However I did find a woman who met all of my requirements "no mask, unvaxxed, takes responsibility for their health" We got along very well at first. However someone meeting your bare minimum requirements does not make them the best candidate for you to spend eternity with. We disagreed on small things and we found out that our personalities just were not compatible. We were both scared about ever meeting anyone else out there who would even be remotely close to the right thing in this wild world so we stayed together for a lot longer. Eventually the differences between the two of us became unavoidable, we started arguing and being unable to even talk about similar things with each other. We separated and she moved out west to meet more saints, sadly I doubt she will find anyone there.

Now we will talk about my experiences meeting non-saints who believed similar things about the world. I put my name out there online and basically said "Hey, i'm not getting vaccinated." I did find a woman who met all of my requirements "no mask, unvaxxed, takes responsibility for their health." Eventually I found out that spiritually she was able to listen and learn about Christ. She did live a couple hundred miles away from me, but she and I had a lot in common emotionally. I came to find out in her younger years she had committed some serious sexual sins. I came to find out she was involved with drugs, and often she went to parties and went out drinking with friends. Though we were both very similar, my beliefs made us incompatible. She and I stopped talking after I told her how she would have to change and repent if we could ever be in a romantic relationship.

Now we will talk about my experiences meeting saints who believed similar things about the world over-seas. I met a girl who lived in a third-world country. She was raised a muslim, but she had been converted to the Church. She met all of my requirements "no mask, unvaxxed, takes responsibility for their health." However as we got closer I began to see just how much her relationship with her large family affected her. She often went to ceremonies and gatherings with her muslim family, even though she was Christian. Her family was somewhat dangerous and violent, but she still wanted to be with them. We could not be together because of her relationship with her family.

We stand at the edge of a great change this "virus" and "vaccine" and all of the accompanying societal dangers are all just precursors to the upcoming dangers. Many people can see this, and food storage is becoming a bit more popular. However the time that we are currently in is also like the sky between night and day. At twilight the shadows grow longer and darkness engulfs the land reminding us that night is soon at hand, yet at the hilltops and highest points you can see the sunlight gracing the treetops. Even though the darkness is becoming so prevalent, it has only managed to make the light more noticeable.

However as I have shown these hilltops and treetops are not automatically the best places for us young people to set down and make our homes. I suggest that we all get together as many young people as we can on this forum and see what comes out of it. There is a much higher probability of finding the kind of person that is best for you when you are given a large number of people to choose from.

Welcome to the forum, White. I guess I'm the "old guy" at age 72, happily married. Unvaxed. I have served two times as Bishop - once in Provo, once here in NW Missouri.
Teaching in our Elders Quorum tomorrow... I read in the Book of Mormon every day now.
It will be interesting, seeking the Lord's guidance.

[NeveR]

I am a young adult in a rural area of the United States. My experience is similar to other young men here. In prayer I have searched for answers, the Lord told me to go look at this website. I was surprised to find this thread! I believe that those of us saints who know younger people should start pulling our resources, and making connections with like-minded people.

We have some of the things to look for:

Recent issues have given us quite a few filters to take into consideration while trying to find a partner

- no mask
- unvaxxed
- takes responsibility for their health
- doesn’t trust government
- loves Jesus more than ever
- trusts God above men

Lucky me, I’m 20 still got plenty of time, I’m not worrying about the dating world atm. Keep your eyes open and you’ll find the right person when the Lord needs you to. That’s how I’ve felt promoted to approach this.

I have been busy trying this over the past year, because unlike Gadianton Slayer I do not believe in "plenty of time" I fear the future will get crazier sooner. After seeing this thread I will attempt to make a point to you all. Right now we are at a hell of a time to be alive, the line between people who are holding onto the iron rod is becoming ever-more clear. I did meet many different women from each one of these types. I met young local saints in my corner of the United States. I gauged their feelings on the things going on in society. It was amazing, most of them were exactly as I feared, enthralled in social media, and doing exactly as they are told. However I did find a woman who met all of my requirements "no mask, unvaxxed, takes responsibility for their health" We got along very well at first. However someone meeting your bare minimum requirements does not make them the best candidate for you to spend eternity with. We disagreed on small things and we found out that our personalities just were not compatible. We were both scared about ever meeting anyone else out there who would even be remotely close to the right thing in this wild world so we stayed together for a lot longer. Eventually the differences between the two of us became unavoidable, we started arguing and being unable to even talk about similar things with each other. We separated and she moved out west to meet more saints, sadly I doubt she will find anyone there.

Now we will talk about my experiences meeting non-saints who believed similar things about the world. I put my name out there online and basically said "Hey, i'm not getting vaccinated." I did find a woman who met all of my requirements "no mask, unvaxxed, takes responsibility for their health." Eventually I found out that spiritually she was able to listen and learn about Christ. She did live a couple hundred miles away from me, but she and I had a lot in common emotionally. I came to find out in her younger years she had committed some serious sexual sins. I came to find out she was involved with drugs, and often she went to parties and went out drinking with friends. Though we were both very similar, my beliefs made us incompatible. She and I stopped talking after I told her how she would have to change and repent if we could ever be in a romantic relationship.

Now we will talk about my experiences meeting saints who believed similar things about the world over-seas. I met a girl who lived in a third-world country. She was raised a muslim, but she had been converted to the Church. She met all of my requirements "no mask, unvaxxed, takes responsibility for their health." However as we got closer I began to see just how much her relationship with her large family affected her. She often went to ceremonies and gatherings with her muslim family, even though she was Christian. Her family was somewhat dangerous and violent, but she still wanted to be with them. We could not be together because of her relationship with her family.

We stand at the edge of a great change this "virus" and "vaccine" and all of the accompanying societal dangers are all just precursors to the upcoming dangers. Many people can see this, and food storage is becoming a bit more popular. However the time that we are currently in is also like the sky between night and day. At twilight the shadows grow longer and darkness engulfs the land reminding us that night is soon at hand, yet at the hilltops and highest points you can see the sunlight gracing the treetops. Even though the darkness is becoming so prevalent, it has only managed to make the light more noticeable.

However as I have shown these hilltops and treetops are not automatically the best places for us young people to set down and make our homes. I suggest that we all get together as many young people as we can on this forum and see what comes out of it. There is a much higher probability of finding the kind of person that is best for you when you are given a large number of people to choose from.

Welcome to the forum, White. I guess I'm the "old guy" at age 72, happily married. Unvaxed. I have served two times as Bishop - once in Provo, once here in NW Missouri.
Teaching in our Elders Quorum tomorrow... I read in the Book of Mormon every day now.
It will be interesting, seeking the Lord's guidance.

you are almost the age of my FiL. I'm not sure if you read my thread on his appalling marriage, but he for sure is not happy. They pretend to be sometimes for the outside world and even for each other, he is constantly buying relationship guidance books and praying for a miracle, but after forty years of marriage his life with her is torture more or less

If you, or any other happily married people here, could talk to him or any other person facing similar struggles what would you say from the POV of someone happily married?

What makes for happiness in marriage?

Can it exist without friendship? Mutual attraction? Shared passions and goals?

TRUST?

When would you advise calling it quits?

[tmac]

Echo BroJones, welcome White. Because it seems so rare, it's always refreshing to see well-grounded young blood.

And I agree with the sentiment about "plenty of time." My honest opinion is that if we really knew what was around the corner, and when it will hit us, we would all be scurrying around like a bunch of ants preparing for winter. In my own preparations, I would much rather get some stuff, including relationships, in place in advance, than be scrambling around in a panic trying to making something happen from scratch once we're overwhelmed by it. And, I genuinely believe that relationships is one of the most important component of that whole equation. I would want to be mated up to a good, like-minded spouse who was on the same page, from a good, like-minded family, who become an important part of that network (which fortunately, I am).

On that score, I'm going to share an excerpt from a book series I am working on for a Plain Folk (Amish/Mennonite) audience, that includes discussion of this subject matter.

As you can imagine, when it came time for me to find a mate and get married, one of my highest priorities – and this was a matter of very proactive consideration and planning – was to find and marry a farm girl who would be comfortable, and share my own desire to live on the land, and to stay home, be a mother, and raise our children.

Even 40 years ago, that was a much bigger challenge for me in modern English society than it should be in Plain Folk culture where many girls still grow up on a farm, with very nurturing mothers, and typically want the same for their own children. But, in terms of beginning with the end in mind, long-term business and perpetuation planning begins even before you have any children. It really begins in earnest when you get married.

To help further illustrate this point, I am going to relate the story of Tobias, one of my youngish Amish acquaintances in Colorado. He grew up in the thick of Amish culture in Holmes County, Ohio. Because of his birth order and how things were going, there was no real chance that he was going to end up with the family farm, so he ultimately went to work for a neighbor who had a successful furniture shop. Although it was a good job, and he enjoyed it well enough on a temporary basis, he couldn’t really see himself doing that the rest of his life. But he had no idea what he really wanted to do. In the meantime, he enjoyed life as a young, single Amish man. Tobias had a steady girlfriend. And because he loved to hunt and fish, he saved up his money, and went to Colorado for an elk hunt. “That was a game changer for me,” he said. When he got back home, he promptly asked his girlfriend “how would you feel about moving to Colorado?” Her reaction turned out to be a deal-breaker, so they broke up. But at that point, he had better criteria for finding a new girlfriend and potential life mate. “By then, it was much more calculated on my part,” he said. “I didn’t want to waste any time with girls who weren’t going to be interested in moving to Colorado.” It took a little doing, but he eventually became aware of a girl who already had two sisters living in Colorado. Along with everything else that factors into such equations, that factor alone provided enough potential to ask her out, start dating, and getting to know each other. It didn’t take them long to get married, and seemingly even less time to move to Colorado, where they seem to be very happy. Although they were certainly not in a position to acquire some large, sprawling farm or ranch, right out of the chute, they now have a young family, and are building a nice place on rural acreage that fits the bill for them. He is a partner in a thriving business. They love the mountains and the big, wide open spaces. And they love living in the West.

The important point is that having compatible visions and sharing a fundamental long-term vision is a critical part of a happy, compatible marriage. Over the course of the past year I have met multiple young Amish wives who definitely fit the bill as help mate to their husbands, and they have been an inspiration to me, including Kathy Beiler, the daughter-in-law of Eli Beiler.

I was thrilled to finally have the opportunity to make the acquaintance of Eli Beiler. In addition to being a Western sheep farmer in Colorado, Eli and his sons are also commercial sheep shearers, who work for a western sheep shearing contractor. We had a real good visit. Among other things, Eli showed me the new goat dairy that his oldest son, Ray, and his wife, Kathy, had built, and explained their operation to me. I asked Eli how his son could possibly go shearing sheep in the Spring and run a goat dairy at the same time. Eli said there was a very simple answer to that question: “He’s got a very good wife,” who I had the opportunity to meet, and she confirmed that she quite enjoys the work and challenge of running and holding down the dairy when her husband is off shearing sheep. I asked Kathy what she thought of that, and was a little surprised at her response: “I love it. I love taking care of the dairy when Ray’s gone,” she said. “I do it so much better than he does,” she said with a twinkle in her eye, “because I am not as pressed for time, and I really enjoy doing it, so I wouldn’t have it any other way.” “But what about your young kids,” I asked. “It’s perfect,” she said, “just the way it’s meant to be; I’m training them right.”

It did my heart good to once again meet Amish women with such a willing, can-do attitude. I have been so happy to meet more and more Amish families in the West, and see the extent to which most of their communities are growing and thriving.

And, now I'm just going to throw something else out there. From what I understand, some younger women, including young, urban women, are waking up -- apparently much more so than most younger men. I have been paying attention to some of the fastest growing prepper sites, consultants, and services in the country, and they all say that whereas in the past their customers/clients were dominated by 50+ year-old men, now their single biggest customer/client demographics are younger women, including a lot of younger urban women, who are starting to wake up and read the writing on the wall, and figuring out that they better start thinking about how best to get buckled-up for what it inevitably around the corner.

I find this interesting, and worthwhile food for thought and hope on this topic.

[BroJones]

Recent issues have given us quite a few filters to take into consideration while trying to find a partner

- no mask
- unvaxxed
- takes responsibility for their health
- doesn’t trust government
- loves Jesus more than ever
- trusts God above men

Lucky me, I’m 20 still got plenty of time, I’m not worrying about the dating world atm. Keep your eyes open and you’ll find the right person when the Lord needs you to. That’s how I’ve felt promoted to approach this.

Good points, I think it's much harder for the younger generation to date now than it was when I was younger. The world has changed a lot over the last 20+ years.

Another huge issue that needs to be addressed is the world's ideology of embracing the natural man, including many in the Church. I am constantly surprised at how many Church members are not only supportive of Same-Sex marriage (even though it can never be a marriage), but they for some reason think that there is nothing wrong with it. So yet another can of worms to open up on a date.

There are also misconceptions of what marriage is or ought to be, especially if you have never been married before. I can say that I definitely had no idea what I was getting into the first time around. Here is some advice for those of you that are in the dating world right now though.

1- Take your time, don't rush it. Study a little psychology and know what red flags to look out for. The last thing you want to do is shoot yourself in the foot and marry someone with some serious psychological issues. I'd recommend a year or two of consistent dating to really get to know the other person. If they have psychological issues you'll start recognizing red flags. To get you started here's a fun article to read:

https://shrink4men.com/2012/03/27/the-t ... rincesses/

2- Realize what marriage is, and what you plan to bring to the table. A good marriage is about a lot of things that are working well together. This includes at the top of the list good, effective communication. Both of you need to be able to effectively communicate with each other, listen to each other, and respect one another's opinions. That doesn't mean you necessarily agree constantly, but you ought to, at the very least, respect and allow your partner to have their own opinions.

Go into the marriage with the attitude that you are going to put her needs first. Of course, if you are marrying the right person she ought to be doing the same thing. If not, the song "Highway to Hell" is going to take on a whole other meaning for you. In a healthy marriage, both partners ought to do their best to put their partner's needs first, and things will naturally work out as you are both selflessly serving each other. The problem comes when one party is taking advantage of the other, and it becomes a very abusive one-sided relationship.

3- During counseling I learned a different acronym for CTR that is very appropriate. CTR stands for - Commitment, Trust, and Respect. All 3 of these ought to be part of a healthy relationship. Both of you should be fully committed for the long haul, and go in with the mentality that sometimes things are going to get really hard. There are going to be good days, and there are going to be really bad days. Trust is extremely important in a relationship and very easy to break. Sometimes that trust can be permanently broken in a marriage, and that marriage is doomed. Respect is very important as it is what will hold you together through the rough patches.

4- Know what your deal breakers are, and stick with them while looking for a spouse. Believe it or not, but at the end of the day, a good marriage is worth its weight in gold. I would much rather that my sons marry someone that is semi-attractive and have an amazing great marriage than to have them marry an extremely attractive woman that treats them like garbage. The problem with a lot of us men (I'm speaking from experience), is that we tend to let a womans' beauty have more power than it ought to. In other words, there have been many men that have married the wrong woman because she was beautiful, even though the relationship was horrible. It either ends up in divorce or a lot of pain and misery.

Do yourself a favor, and avoid the trap. Focus on the qualities that she has, and brings to the relationship. It's better to marry a woman with a heart of gold than it is to marry a beautiful woman just for the sake of beauty. At the end of the day, beauty fades and all that remains is how you treat each other.

5 - Some people don't want to leave the town they grew up in, or want to live close to their parents. This can have ramifications on what jobs you can take, where you live, and your quality of life. All things to consider prior to getting into a serious relationship.

6- Be on the same page with Finances. This is a huge issue in today's society. Both of you ought to decide beforehand how finances will be handled. If she expects to stay home and raise the kids, have a game plan in place that will accommodate this. If you both plan on working, plan on how you will raise your kids. Many a marriage has been ruined over two people having very different plans when it comes to money. I would advise being educated on some basic principles when it comes to money. A good place to start with is listening to Dave Ramsey and Robert Kiyosaki. Gives you a place to start with that gives you a couple of different perspectives of how to make wise moves when it comes to finances.

7- Decide how you will raise your kids, and what values are important to you. This will include your deal breakers. For example, some people think that you should not spank a child regardless of the situation or age, others strongly disagree with that. Something as simple as this can cause a lot of problems when you are in the midst of a marriage, and both of you have two very different ideas on how to raise your kids. What values do you want to instill with your children will have an impact on their lives and will help to mold and shape who they are, and how they interact with others. This ought to be part of the conversation when things start getting serious. Who is going to be there taking care of the kids, how is this going to look? What type of values do you want to instill in your children?

8- Do not try to be a White Knight, do not try to save someone from themselves. Do not expect to fix someone else. You have to be willing to accept the other person just as they are flaws, warts, and all. This should be a two-way street though. Of course, it's best if both of you are willing to continually work on supporting each other in being the best versions of yourself that you can be. There is a huge difference between being supportive of your Spouse's goals to be the best version of themselves vs. trying to fix what annoys you about your spouse. Understanding the difference is key. You should be willing to continue working on making positive changes in your life that you feel are important to you, and hopefully, your spouse will want to do the same. You ought to let each other decide what is important, rather than to try to point out each other's flaws.

9 - Set expectations of what each of you expects out of the marriage? Find out how each of you was raised, and what you agree/disagree with. Talk about what you expect a typical day/week/month to look like. Have something that triggers you, better let her know before you get too serious. Ask each other how you handle difficult situations, so you know what to expect. Not be blindsided like me, and find yourself on the receiving end of a Butcher Knife (true story).

These are just a few things to consider when looking into getting into a serious relationship with the end goal of getting married. This is a good place to start having those difficult conversations before you get married. This is why it is important to really get to know each other before committing to each other. Good relationships can work, they just take a lot of work and patience. Good Luck!

Good advice! Thank you for taking the time to compose this.