Non-observance of Christmas

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Niemand
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by Niemand »

Thinker wrote: December 15th, 2021, 6:00 pm Even the Spirit of Santa Clause is beautiful & may help build a belief foundation and faith for a loving Heavenly Father who knows & loves each of His children, wants each child to be good & is happy to bless them with gifts.
I don't agree. Santa Claus may have begun life as St. Nicholas, but he is now a pagan god who represents greed and mammon, and is a personification of winter. (How did a Turkish bishop end up relocated to Lapland/Greenland/North Pole and acquiring flying reindeer and pagan imps, i.e. elves, as helpers?)

Santa's idea of love is utterly materialistic. It involves giving things. While that is great for the children, it's not so great for the parents, especially if they are poor. When I was little I liked the fancier presents of course, but now looking back, my fondest memories are of presents my father made me himself.

By the by, some people notice a link between Satan and Santa, including their names being anagrams and the fact Satan is known as Old Nick in some quarters.

The flying reindeer are derived from northern European heathens. It is known as the wild hunt, and has an equivalent in Germanic folklore with their deities leading it. In Lappish/Sami and Siberian cultures, flying reindeer are associated with the consumption of certain mushrooms. The greenery (evergreen pine trees, wreaths, holly etc, are fertility symbols, representing the undying aspects of nature before spring.)

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MikeMaillet
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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Christmas was a wonderful time when I was younger and I still have many good memories of family meals and get-togethers... I was with almost all of my family this past weekend (Mom, kids, grandkids) and it was absolutely wonderful. It was Christmas that brought us together.

Having said that, spending gobs of money on Babylonian junk to celebrate the birth of our Saviour is very wrong. At the end of the season, do we feel closer to Christ or are we hung over from overspending, overeating and overindulging? The holiday is so steeped into our North American culture that it would be difficult for me to say to the family that we will no longer "celebrate" Christmas. I go along and try to remain as low-key as I can during this period and take advantage of the time we spend together.

Merry Christmas,

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario

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Niemand
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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MikeMaillet wrote: December 16th, 2021, 3:58 am Having said that, spending gobs of money on Babylonian junk to celebrate the birth of our Saviour is very wrong. At the end of the season, do we feel closer to Christ or are we hung over from overspending, overeating and overindulging? The holiday is so steeped into our North American culture that it would be difficult for me to say to the family that we will no longer "celebrate" Christmas. I go along and try to remain as low-key as I can during this period and take advantage of the time we spend together.

Merry Christmas,
Babylonian junk is about right, and seeing how some of these companies are direct sponsors of the loathsome World Economic Forum and dubious advertising which encourages promiscuity and overindulgence, we should not encourage them.

Funnily enough, Christmas' roots are not as deep as one might think. There are some very old pagan elements (flying reindeer, Father Frost, greenery etc) which turn up in it, but the modern form of Christmas is less than a century or two old. The Christmas Tree was found in German speaking lands, but was only introduced into the British Commonwealth by Queen Victoria's German husband, Prince Albert. (And presumably mostly spread to the USA from there.) The design of Santa has only solidified in the last 100-150 years (not due to Coca Cola as some claim.)

I know the USA got some of its Christmas traditions off the Dutch and German settlers, but even they were not crystallised during early period. Canada presumably has inherited some French Catholic Christmas traditions as well.

In Scotland, it didn't become an official public holiday until the 1960s, for example. That is partly down to our Presbyterian heritage. It happened within the lifetime of my parents. Roman Catholics and some Episcopalians may have taken the day off, but it was not official and even their celebrations were quite different. (RCs were mostly at the lower end of the economic spectrum back then so didn't have huge amounts to spend.) Our big winter festival traditionally was the New Year (Hogmanay) - like Christmas today, that was usually celebrated by drinking even more than usual, and people have always been heavy drinkers here so you can imagine what that was like.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by Robin Hood »

Niemand wrote: December 15th, 2021, 4:43 pm
markharr wrote: December 15th, 2021, 4:40 pm
Niemand wrote: December 15th, 2021, 4:08 pm
TheDuke wrote: December 15th, 2021, 4:05 pm Wow, I'm sorry. Christmas has always been the greatest time of the year for my family, and will always be. I do see commercialization, but it is everywhere, so. I've gone so far as to fight for Christmas. As my company and community tried to make it just a holiday.
You're lucky you don't live here. There is a playlist of maybe a dozen (or two dozen) 70s and 80s pop songs which get played ad nauseam here. Every shop, every radio station, and every cafe. It's barely changed in my lifetime. I'm sure Robin Hood will back me up on that.

I feel Christmas is for children. I'm not a child anymore, and my god daughter is seventeen or so now, so I don't really get anything for her.
Image
We get that one here occasionally.

Mostly we get British glam rock bands no one ever remembers much otherwise (apart from Slade). It's one hit wonder heaven. George Michael's Wham song is also on endlessly.
Niemand.... Wizzard????

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MikeMaillet
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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My parents are Acadians, descendants from the French that were exiled from their land, Acadia (now part of Nova Scotia), in 1755 by the English. They grew up on the east coast of New Brunswick but I was born and raised in northern Ontario in a small village that was about 70% French speaking. Being French Canadian means you're Catholic and I grew up with those traditions; midnight mass followed by "reveillon", a massive feast where "tourtiere" (meat pie), "poutine rape" (east coast potato dish) and other delicacies were served. My Mom was also a great baker and we had a large selection of baked goods on which to snack. Those were the days :-)

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario

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Niemand
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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Robin Hood wrote: December 16th, 2021, 5:08 am Niemand.... Wizzard????
Yes, that's one of them! Who the heck listens to that band otherwise?* I'm sure you know most of these songs, they're pretty unavoidable. I know every lyric of them and not by choice. For some reason the very short British Christmas playlist seems to be mostly frozen in the glam era with one or two 80s add ons, and Lennon & McCartney's efforts.

Apart from Bowie and T Rex, most British glam doesn't get much of an airing these days. Maybe something to do with the likes of Jimmy Savile and Gary Glitter having to be edited out of the clips. Yeuch. (For anyone outside these islands - those two men are the two most notorious paedos of recent times.)

* To be fair, Roy Wood's other bands ELO and the Move do still get a lot of airplay.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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I have noticed a few people have said something along the lines of not getting caught up in all the commercialism and fancy stuff around Christmas, they just focus on Christ.
While it is important to focus on Christ everyday, I don't believe it should be particularly highlighted because it's Christmas.
Deuteronomy 12:29-32 covers this. This is basically saying that God's people have been given their feasts and holy days and they should not observe those of the pagan, and certainly should not use those pagan holidays to reverence Jehovah.
And for info, Jeremiah 10:1-5 covers Christmas trees.

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Niemand
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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MikeMaillet wrote: December 16th, 2021, 5:17 am My parents are Acadians, descendants from the French that were exiled from their land, Acadia (now part of Nova Scotia), in 1755 by the English. They grew up on the east coast of New Brunswick but I was born and raised in northern Ontario in a small village that was about 70% French speaking. Being French Canadian means you're Catholic and I grew up with those traditions; midnight mass followed by "reveillon", a massive feast where "tourtiere" (meat pie), "poutine rape" (east coast potato dish) and other delicacies were served. My Mom was also a great baker and we had a large selection of baked goods on which to snack. Those were the days :-)
Sounds nice, if a bit heavy. I don't think I could eat in the early morning like that! A good alternative to the creepy mainstream Christmas of today.

Yes, I'm aware of the Acadians and their horrible experience... partly through reading up on the Cajuns in Louisiana and Nova Scotian history. I don't think many people on this side of the Atlantic know what happened. I suppose it is essentially the foundation of Anglo-Canada.

During lockdown I watched a lot of videos about Maritime Canada. A lot of it looks very pretty, and i regret to say with all the terrible things which have been happening recently, I suspect I may never get to see these places, let alone Ontario and the rest of the country.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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MikeMaillet wrote: December 16th, 2021, 5:17 am My parents are Acadians, descendants from the French that were exiled from their land, Acadia (now part of Nova Scotia), in 1755 by the English. They grew up on the east coast of New Brunswick but I was born and raised in northern Ontario in a small village that was about 70% French speaking. Being French Canadian means you're Catholic and I grew up with those traditions; midnight mass followed by "reveillon", a massive feast where "tourtiere" (meat pie), "poutine rape" (east coast potato dish) and other delicacies were served. My Mom was also a great baker and we had a large selection of baked goods on which to snack. Those were the days :-)

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario
Don't just blame the English, it was the British (including Scots, Welsh and Irish).
It isn't named Nova Scotia after a London borough!

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Momma J
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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December 1st we put up a tree with beautiful white lights. There are no gifts under the tree. On a small table beside the tree is a basket of small white cards and envelopes. When we complete an act of kindness; we write it down place it in an envelope and fasten it to the tree. These are our gifts to our Savior.

I do love Christmas carols and will either play "The Three Tenors Christmas" or the "Tabernacle Choir"

I also make baskets of homemade goodies for each of my neighbors. They are from many ethnic backgrounds and denominations. A simple way to let them know that we care and to open the door to spread the love of Christ. Even my Buddhist and Muslim neighbors respond with Merry Christmas.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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Momma J wrote: December 16th, 2021, 5:51 am December 1st we put up a tree with beautiful white lights. There are no gifts under the tree. On a small table beside the tree is a basket of small white cards and envelopes. When we complete an act of kindness; we write it down place it in an envelope and fasten it to the tree. These are our gifts to our Savior.

I do love Christmas carols and will either play "The Three Tenors Christmas" or the "Tabernacle Choir"

I also make baskets of homemade goodies for each of my neighbors. They are from many ethnic backgrounds and denominations. A simple way to let them know that we care and to open the door to spread the love of Christ. Even my Buddhist and Muslim neighbors respond with Merry Christmas.
So that is an example of Christmas observance rather than non-observance.

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ajax
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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Heaven forbid giving gifts to loved ones, and celebrating in food and song. At one point the Puritans wanted to cancel Christmas. HL Mencken quipped: “Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.” Mormons aren’t too far behind. Perhaps adding a little alcohol to the Christmas cider will loosen y’all up a bit.
Last edited by ajax on December 16th, 2021, 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Thinker
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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Niemand wrote: December 16th, 2021, 3:43 am
Thinker wrote: December 15th, 2021, 6:00 pm Even the Spirit of Santa Clause is beautiful & may help build a belief foundation and faith for a loving Heavenly Father who knows & loves each of His children, wants each child to be good & is happy to bless them with gifts.
I don't agree. Santa Claus may have begun life as St. Nicholas, but he is now a pagan god who represents greed and mammon, and is a personification of winter…
To each his own. :)

Image

I admit I don’t like the idea of lying about Santa to my kids, yet I wanted them to enjoy imagining, so I often explained or read about how Santa & many Christmas decorations are symbolic….

Embrace symbolism:

🎁 Bow - bond of love for one another:
*“Galatians 6:2 - Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.”
⭐️ Star/lights: light of Christ - divine guidance
*”God is light.” -1John1:5
🎵 Music: Divine testimony
*”let us sing unto the LORD.” -Psalm 95:1
🌲 Evergreen: eternal life/God's constant GOoDness.
*”God is our refuge and strength.” - Psalm 46:1

Wise Men of East: wisdom, including from other places.
*”Be willing to receive all truth, from whatever source it may come.” (Lds)
🎁 Gifts: opening & enjoying our own spiritual gifts and giving God's love we feel to others.
*1 Corinthians 12:4-11 - Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
👶🏼 Baby - being physically & spiritually born again.
*”Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” -John 3:3
🌲 ⭕️ evergreen Wreath: encircled about in the arms of his love.
*”I am encircled about eternally in the arms of his love.” 2Nephi 1:15


I know, you could probably burst my bubble by explaining other possible historical evil meanings of those symbols… but why? Would it help? For a long time I often bit my lip (was quiet) about what I discovered about Christian origins because warped traditional beliefs, though incorrect, seemed harmless (now I see threats since religion is being used as a weapon so I’m less quiet). If most adults were going around still believing in Santa, I’d see it problematic, & again, I don’t like the consumerism push - but otherwise it’s a good, “functional illusion.” Children- especially before 8 years old - are incapable of thinking in abstract terms - they only think literally/concretely. So, again, I see Santa like a building block of faith.

Of course parents are left to interpret this. I love Momma’s idea of acts of kindness… & parents could say that the Spirit of Santa is in kind acts - doesn’t even have to be gifts. It’s understandable & wise to avoid the commercial materialistic aspects, but in my opinion, it’s unwise to avoid the Spirit of Christmas.

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gradles21
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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Niemand wrote: December 16th, 2021, 3:43 am
Thinker wrote: December 15th, 2021, 6:00 pm Even the Spirit of Santa Clause is beautiful & may help build a belief foundation and faith for a loving Heavenly Father who knows & loves each of His children, wants each child to be good & is happy to bless them with gifts.
I don't agree. Santa Claus may have begun life as St. Nicholas, but he is now a pagan god who represents greed and mammon, and is a personification of winter. (How did a Turkish bishop end up relocated to Lapland/Greenland/North Pole and acquiring flying reindeer and pagan imps, i.e. elves, as helpers?)

Santa's idea of love is utterly materialistic. It involves giving things. While that is great for the children, it's not so great for the parents, especially if they are poor. When I was little I liked the fancier presents of course, but now looking back, my fondest memories are of presents my father made me himself.

By the by, some people notice a link between Satan and Santa, including their names being anagrams and the fact Satan is known as Old Nick in some quarters.

The flying reindeer are derived from northern European heathens. It is known as the wild hunt, and has an equivalent in Germanic folklore with their deities leading it. In Lappish/Sami and Siberian cultures, flying reindeer are associated with the consumption of certain mushrooms. The greenery (evergreen pine trees, wreaths, holly etc, are fertility symbols, representing the undying aspects of nature before spring.)
I don't mind the pagan aspect of Christmas, as my ancestors on both sides were northern European Pagans before converting to Mormonism.

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Thinker
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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I want to reemphasize “to each his own.”
It may be for some, Christmas brings back bad memories & they’d rather not remember. Maybe for a time, it would be good for their spirit to avoid it. Yet, I believe bad memories can be transformed by God - by doing what Jacob did - wrestling it out with God… transforming chaotic abstract humongous overwhelming feelings… into words. “The word was God.”

When I have done this, I have often been amazed at how healing it is!

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MikeMaillet
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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Robin Hood wrote: December 16th, 2021, 5:47 am
MikeMaillet wrote: December 16th, 2021, 5:17 am My parents are Acadians, descendants from the French that were exiled from their land, Acadia (now part of Nova Scotia), in 1755 by the English. They grew up on the east coast of New Brunswick but I was born and raised in northern Ontario in a small village that was about 70% French speaking. Being French Canadian means you're Catholic and I grew up with those traditions; midnight mass followed by "reveillon", a massive feast where "tourtiere" (meat pie), "poutine rape" (east coast potato dish) and other delicacies were served. My Mom was also a great baker and we had a large selection of baked goods on which to snack. Those were the days :-)

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario
Don't just blame the English, it was the British (including Scots, Welsh and Irish).
It isn't named Nova Scotia after a London borough!
:D

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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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I grew up in a family that observed Christmas with little fanfare. My best memories of being a very young child at Christmas are of following my grandfather out to the barn to help milk the cow - cats & dogs lined up waiting for their share - and of laying my head against Rosie's flank to hear her comfortable internal workings. Before grandpa separated the cream, I was given a thick mug of warm milk, better than any espresso steamed milk with Italian syrup to flavor. Being with grandparents, aunts, uncles, & cousins was what made the day!

Favorite carol is Joy to the World! It's actually a hymn about Christ's Millennial reign

Joy to the world, the Lord is come!
Let earth receive her King;
Let every heart prepare Him room,
And heav’n and nature sing,
And heav’n and nature sing,
And heav’n, and heav’n, and nature sing.

Joy to the earth, the Savior reigns!
Let men their songs employ;
While fields and floods, rocks, hills, and plains
Repeat the sounding joy,
Repeat the sounding joy,
Repeat, repeat, the sounding joy.

No more let sins and sorrows grow,
Nor thorns infest the ground;
He comes to make His blessings flow
Far as the curse is found,
Far as the curse is found,
Far as, far as, the curse is found.

He rules the world with truth and grace,
And makes the nations prove
The glories of His righteousness,
And wonders of His love,
And wonders of His love,
And wonders, wonders, of His love.
Isaac Watts

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MikeMaillet
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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Niemand wrote: December 16th, 2021, 5:29 am
MikeMaillet wrote: December 16th, 2021, 5:17 am My parents are Acadians, descendants from the French that were exiled from their land, Acadia (now part of Nova Scotia), in 1755 by the English. They grew up on the east coast of New Brunswick but I was born and raised in northern Ontario in a small village that was about 70% French speaking. Being French Canadian means you're Catholic and I grew up with those traditions; midnight mass followed by "reveillon", a massive feast where "tourtiere" (meat pie), "poutine rape" (east coast potato dish) and other delicacies were served. My Mom was also a great baker and we had a large selection of baked goods on which to snack. Those were the days :-)
Sounds nice, if a bit heavy. I don't think I could eat in the early morning like that! A good alternative to the creepy mainstream Christmas of today.

Yes, I'm aware of the Acadians and their horrible experience... partly through reading up on the Cajuns in Louisiana and Nova Scotian history. I don't think many people on this side of the Atlantic know what happened. I suppose it is essentially the foundation of Anglo-Canada.

During lockdown I watched a lot of videos about Maritime Canada. A lot of it looks very pretty, and i regret to say with all the terrible things which have been happening recently, I suspect I may never get to see these places, let alone Ontario and the rest of the country.
When you're a kid you have a stomach of steel.

Acadian history is interesting. I grew up away from my extended family but we would visit every few years when we were kids. I always enjoyed visiting my cousins, aunts and uncles; they were the nicest people. French Canadians from Quebec are not the same as easterners. The people from the coast are much more laid back and much less political. The scenery is something else and the hospitality is next to none. I hope you can make it there someday.

I grew up in a dingy mining town and thought I was in heaven :-)

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario

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Niemand
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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ajax wrote: December 16th, 2021, 8:25 am Heaven forbid giving gifts to loved ones, and celebrating in food and song. At one point the Puritans wanted to cancel Christmas. HL Mencken quipped: “Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.” Mormons are too far behind. Perhaps adding a little alcohol to the Christmas cider will loosen y’all up a bit.
The motto of Christmas should be moderation in all things. Instead we get people spending hundreds on their children, finding embarassing pictures of themselves kissing the secretary at the office party and barely being able to move for several days.

It's not about puritanism, it's about breaking the bank. Parents have to look after their children all year round. Blowing your cash all in one month means they'll suffer later on.

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Niemand
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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Thinker wrote: December 16th, 2021, 8:35 am I know, you could probably burst my bubble by explaining other possible historical evil meanings of those symbols… but why? Would it help?
Yes, as someone said, Jesus is the reason for the season. We should get back to Christ.

People make themselves bitterly unhappy over Christmas. A pal who's a retired lawyer says his firm specially opened up every Boxing Day for divorce proceedings. I have a different problem, my family is all either dead or living far away from here. I feel like I'm imposing on anyone I visit. So I keep it as simple as possible. But many people get very depressed because of the constant hammering of Christmas everywhere.

My neighbours go in for the lights. Same problem. Turns into a competition and probably an expensive one. The simpler ones actually look more tasteful to my eye. But again, in the fancier ones Jesus isn't there, it's all snowmen and various other non-Christian kitsch. The star and the foliage are there, but no one round here makes those associations you just mentioned.

That isn't right. The gift giving has become a competition in which people buy what they cannot afford. They get stressed producing fancy meals and all the rest.

Santa is very much a usurper, gate crasher, imposter, whatever you want to call him. I think he represents what has gone wrong with it. The displacement of Jesus, and so on. He is no longer St. Nicholas at this point.

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Niemand
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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gradles21 wrote: December 16th, 2021, 8:49 am I don't mind the pagan aspect of Christmas, as my ancestors on both sides were northern European Pagans before converting to Mormonism.
Even its relationship to those traditions is warped. Most of modern Christmas has emerged since the USA got its independence. Within my parents' lifetimes over here. It's not very authentic paganism most of the time, beyond the tree and greenery. But since none of my ancestors were Germans, they wouldn't have had Christmas trees until long after Queen Victoria's husband introduced them. None of them were Dutch, so they wouldn't have had the Santa Claus stuff until recently either.

I suppose my nearest link to this would be my Norse ancestry who would have celebrated Yule/Jol, but this whole thing would be unrecognisable to them. Especially since they would have come from marginal lands, where famine was often around the corner.

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Momma J
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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Robin Hood wrote: December 16th, 2021, 6:52 am
Momma J wrote: December 16th, 2021, 5:51 am December 1st we put up a tree with beautiful white lights. There are no gifts under the tree. On a small table beside the tree is a basket of small white cards and envelopes. When we complete an act of kindness; we write it down place it in an envelope and fasten it to the tree. These are our gifts to our Savior.

I do love Christmas carols and will either play "The Three Tenors Christmas" or the "Tabernacle Choir"

I also make baskets of homemade goodies for each of my neighbors. They are from many ethnic backgrounds and denominations. A simple way to let them know that we care and to open the door to spread the love of Christ. Even my Buddhist and Muslim neighbors respond with Merry Christmas.
So that is an example of Christmas observance rather than non-observance.
Yes it is. But then again we try to observe all through the year. I see nothing wrong with Christ having his own day. However, most people have erased the very meaning of "Christ"mas and replaced it with *I want more stuff*

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TheChristian
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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Christmas is a goodly event, regardless of date it enshrines the memory of Jesus being born of a virgin into this world.........
Hence the Christian will celebrate it in the true spirit of worship and the Godless will celebrate it with drunkeness and wordly excesses, neverthe less even the Godless are reminded once a year thru Christmas of a babe being born in Bethlehem, of who He is and what He has done for all mankind.........
The Gospel light still shines brightly in the darkness and has done for nigh on 2000 years.......

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Robin Hood
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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ajax wrote: December 16th, 2021, 8:25 am Heaven forbid giving gifts to loved ones, and celebrating in food and song.
Apparently so.

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ajax
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by ajax »

Niemand wrote: December 16th, 2021, 9:28 am
ajax wrote: December 16th, 2021, 8:25 am Heaven forbid giving gifts to loved ones, and celebrating in food and song. At one point the Puritans wanted to cancel Christmas. HL Mencken quipped: “Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.” Mormons are too far behind. Perhaps adding a little alcohol to the Christmas cider will loosen y’all up a bit.
The motto of Christmas should be moderation in all things. Instead we get people spending hundreds on their children, finding embarassing pictures of themselves kissing the secretary at the office party and barely being able to move for several days.

It's not about puritanism, it's about breaking the bank. Parents have to look after their children all year round. Blowing your cash all in one month means they'll suffer later on.
Nobody said anything about breaking the bank. And I could care less what others do, nor do seek after such rumors.

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