Non-observance of Christmas

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Being There
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by Being There »

mtmom wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:09 am
Robin Hood wrote: December 15th, 2021, 5:12 am Are there others on the forum who don't observe Christmas, or am I the only one?

We quit the whole thing 3 years ago and have never regretted it. No Nimrod tree, no lights or decorations of any kind, no cards, no presents, no carol services, no FP Christmas devotional.... nothing.
It's great.

All we do is have a meal with the family, which is something we do regularly anyway.

I would be interested to hear from others who feel the same way.
We have given our Christmas decorations away to one of our adult children. We are celebrating Hanukkah this year. We will see how it goes.

Jeremiah 10:3-4
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
sorry but the scripture you quoted has nothing to do with a Christmas tree - but of idols and worshiping them.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Christmas-tree.html

"There is nothing in the Bible that either commands or prohibits Christmas trees.
It has been falsely claimed by some that Jeremiah 10:1-16 prohibits the cutting down and decorating of trees
in the same manner as we do at Christmas."



Should we have a Christmas tree?
https://www.gotquestions.org/Christmas-tree.html

The modern custom of a Christmas tree does not come from any form of paganism.
There is no evidence of any pagan religion decorating a special holiday tree for their mid-winter festivals, although the Romans celebrated the winter solstice with a festival called Saturnalia in honor of Saturnus, the god of agriculture. They decorated their houses with greens and lights and exchanged gifts. Late in the Middle Ages, Germans and Scandinavians placed evergreen trees inside their homes or just outside their doors to show their hope in the forthcoming spring. The first Christmas tree was decorated by Protestant Christians in 16th-century Germany. Our modern Christmas tree evolved from these early German traditions, and the custom most likely came to the United States with Hessian troops during the American Revolution, or with German immigrants to Pennsylvania and Ohio.


There is nothing in the Bible that either commands or prohibits Christmas trees.
It has been falsely claimed by some that Jeremiah 10:1-16 prohibits the cutting down and decorating of trees in the same manner as we do at Christmas.

However, even a cursory reading of the text makes it clear that the passage is one in which Jeremiah sets forth the prohibition against idols made of wood, plated with silver and gold, and worshiped.
A similar idea appears in Isaiah 44, where Isaiah speaks of the silliness of the idol-worshipers who cut down a tree, burn part of it in the fire to warm themselves, and use the other part to fashion an idol, which they then bow down to. So unless we bow down before our Christmas tree, carve it into an idol, and pray to it, these passages cannot be applied to Christmas trees.

There is no spiritual significance to having or not having a Christmas tree.
Whatever choice we make, the motive behind a believer’s decision about this, as in all matters of conscience, must be to please the Lord. Romans 14:5-6a sets out the principle in a passage about liberty: “One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.”

The Lord is grieved when Christians look down upon one another for either celebrating or not celebrating Christmas in a particular way. This is spiritual pride. When we feel that somehow we have achieved a higher plane of spirituality by doing or not doing something about which the Bible is silent, we misuse our freedom in Christ, create divisions within His body, and thereby dishonor the Lord. “So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God
” (1 Corinthians 10:31).
Last edited by Being There on November 27th, 2022, 3:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Being There
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Posts: 2868

Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by Being There »

Being There wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:39 pm
mtmom wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:09 am
Robin Hood wrote: December 15th, 2021, 5:12 am Are there others on the forum who don't observe Christmas, or am I the only one?

We quit the whole thing 3 years ago and have never regretted it. No Nimrod tree, no lights or decorations of any kind, no cards, no presents, no carol services, no FP Christmas devotional.... nothing.
It's great.

All we do is have a meal with the family, which is something we do regularly anyway.

I would be interested to hear from others who feel the same way.
We have given our Christmas decorations away to one of our adult children. We are celebrating Hanukkah this year. We will see how it goes.

Jeremiah 10:3-4
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
sorry but the scripture you quoted has nothing to do with a Christmas tree - but of idols and worshiping them.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Christmas-tree.html

"There is nothing in the Bible that either commands or prohibits Christmas trees.
It has been falsely claimed by some that Jeremiah 10:1-16 prohibits the cutting down and decorating of trees
in the same manner as we do at Christmas."



Should we have a Christmas tree?
https://www.gotquestions.org/Christmas-tree.html

The modern custom of a Christmas tree does not come from any form of paganism.
There is no evidence of any pagan religion decorating a special holiday tree for their mid-winter festivals, although the Romans celebrated the winter solstice with a festival called Saturnalia in honor of Saturnus, the god of agriculture. They decorated their houses with greens and lights and exchanged gifts. Late in the Middle Ages, Germans and Scandinavians placed evergreen trees inside their homes or just outside their doors to show their hope in the forthcoming spring. The first Christmas tree was decorated by Protestant Christians in 16th-century Germany. Our modern Christmas tree evolved from these early German traditions, and the custom most likely came to the United States with Hessian troops during the American Revolution, or with German immigrants to Pennsylvania and Ohio.


There is nothing in the Bible that either commands or prohibits Christmas trees.
It has been falsely claimed by some that Jeremiah 10:1-16 prohibits the cutting down and decorating of trees in the same manner as we do at Christmas.

However, even a cursory reading of the text makes it clear that the passage is one in which Jeremiah sets forth the prohibition against idols made of wood, plated with silver and gold, and worshiped.
A similar idea appears in Isaiah 44, where Isaiah speaks of the silliness of the idol-worshipers who cut down a tree, burn part of it in the fire to warm themselves, and use the other part to fashion an idol, which they then bow down to. So unless we bow down before our Christmas tree, carve it into an idol, and pray to it, these passages cannot be applied to Christmas trees.

There is no spiritual significance to having or not having a Christmas tree.
Whatever choice we make, the motive behind a believer’s decision about this, as in all matters of conscience, must be to please the Lord. Romans 14:5-6a sets out the principle in a passage about liberty: “One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.” The Lord is grieved when Christians look down upon one another for either celebrating or not celebrating Christmas in a particular way. This is spiritual pride. When we feel that somehow we have achieved a higher plane of spirituality by doing or not doing something about which the Bible is silent, we misuse our freedom in Christ, create divisions within His body, and thereby dishonor the Lord. “So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God” (1 Corinthians 10:31).
besides -
ANYTHING - (like CHRISTMAS), that at least helps some people once a year - to think a little less about themselves,
and a little more about our Savior, and about other people - with a spirit of LOVE, HOPE, and GIVING -
couldn't be all that bad.

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Fred
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Location: Zion

Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by Fred »

Niemand wrote: December 15th, 2021, 5:29 am I do very little at Christmas. I do send cards, but I notice how few of the cards on sale are Christian. Our ward was out buying some and I made a point of asking for Christian ones and what did they do? They only went and got some with a wreath drawn on the front and "Season's Greetings" written inside. 🤦‍♂️

So whenever I get some I get ones with nativity scenes, the three wise men etc. Even paintings of Jesus and Mary although I know that is heading in the RC direction. Otherwise I'd be buying ones with penguins on (apparently the latest thing, from what I saw in the shops), Santa, and other Winterval rubbish.

I don't agree with you about carols. That's one thing I do enjoy at this time of year. You occasionally hear actual Christian or quasi-Christian music on mainstream radio programmes too, like Mary's Boy Child by Boney M or something like Johnny Mathis' When a Child is Born which at least points to the nativity.

Christmas is partly pagan (actually as much commercial these days), but it is one of the few times mainstream society lets the memory of Jesus in, for which I'm grateful. I also know Jesus was probably born in April.
Season's Greetings Christmas cards are like no prayer on Thanksgiving. I know plenty of people that have no prayer on Thanksgiving.

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harakim
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by harakim »

I like Christmas. Also, the Israelites were the only group commanded to celebrate the holy days. So you're not supposed to celebrate it if you're not an Israelite. You would get the same credit you would get for celebrating Divali and Ramadan. Actually, you would get less than Ramadan probably. If you want to do it to learn history or get context, go right ahead. Just know it's not a righteous act.

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Robin Hood
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Location: England

Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by Robin Hood »

[youtube][/youtube]
Being There wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:39 pm
mtmom wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:09 am
Robin Hood wrote: December 15th, 2021, 5:12 am Are there others on the forum who don't observe Christmas, or am I the only one?

We quit the whole thing 3 years ago and have never regretted it. No Nimrod tree, no lights or decorations of any kind, no cards, no presents, no carol services, no FP Christmas devotional.... nothing.
It's great.

All we do is have a meal with the family, which is something we do regularly anyway.

I would be interested to hear from others who feel the same way.
We have given our Christmas decorations away to one of our adult children. We are celebrating Hanukkah this year. We will see how it goes.

Jeremiah 10:3-4
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
sorry but the scripture you quoted has nothing to do with a Christmas tree - but of idols and worshiping them.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Christmas-tree.html

"There is nothing in the Bible that either commands or prohibits Christmas trees.
It has been falsely claimed by some that Jeremiah 10:1-16 prohibits the cutting down and decorating of trees
in the same manner as we do at Christmas."



Should we have a Christmas tree?
https://www.gotquestions.org/Christmas-tree.html

The modern custom of a Christmas tree does not come from any form of paganism.
There is no evidence of any pagan religion decorating a special holiday tree for their mid-winter festivals, although the Romans celebrated the winter solstice with a festival called Saturnalia in honor of Saturnus, the god of agriculture. They decorated their houses with greens and lights and exchanged gifts. Late in the Middle Ages, Germans and Scandinavians placed evergreen trees inside their homes or just outside their doors to show their hope in the forthcoming spring. The first Christmas tree was decorated by Protestant Christians in 16th-century Germany. Our modern Christmas tree evolved from these early German traditions, and the custom most likely came to the United States with Hessian troops during the American Revolution, or with German immigrants to Pennsylvania and Ohio.


There is nothing in the Bible that either commands or prohibits Christmas trees.
It has been falsely claimed by some that Jeremiah 10:1-16 prohibits the cutting down and decorating of trees in the same manner as we do at Christmas.

However, even a cursory reading of the text makes it clear that the passage is one in which Jeremiah sets forth the prohibition against idols made of wood, plated with silver and gold, and worshiped.
A similar idea appears in Isaiah 44, where Isaiah speaks of the silliness of the idol-worshipers who cut down a tree, burn part of it in the fire to warm themselves, and use the other part to fashion an idol, which they then bow down to. So unless we bow down before our Christmas tree, carve it into an idol, and pray to it, these passages cannot be applied to Christmas trees.

There is no spiritual significance to having or not having a Christmas tree.
Whatever choice we make, the motive behind a believer’s decision about this, as in all matters of conscience, must be to please the Lord. Romans 14:5-6a sets out the principle in a passage about liberty: “One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.” The Lord is grieved when Christians look down upon one another for either celebrating or not celebrating Christmas in a particular way. This is spiritual pride. When we feel that somehow we have achieved a higher plane of spirituality by doing or not doing something about which the Bible is silent, we misuse our freedom in Christ, create divisions within His body, and thereby dishonor the Lord. “So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God” (1 Corinthians 10:31).
I am really surprised to read this post. The claim that there is no evidence a tree was decorated and used in pagan observance is simply false. The evidence, in fact, is copious. You must know this surely. It's not a secret and is a well known fact.
The passage from Jeremiah is clearly describing the practice of tree decoration. I mean, it actually says it in plain language. To deny that is a clear example of wresting the scriptures.
If you want to observe Christmas with all of its pagan trimmings, that's fine. But I would suggest it is unwise to make these ridiculous claims in order to justify yourself.

mtmom
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Posts: 228

Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by mtmom »

harakim wrote: November 26th, 2022, 10:32 pm I like Christmas. Also, the Israelites were the only group commanded to celebrate the holy days. So you're not supposed to celebrate it if you're not an Israelite. You would get the same credit you would get for celebrating Divali and Ramadan. Actually, you would get less than Ramadan probably. If you want to do it to learn history or get context, go right ahead. Just know it's not a righteous act.
I consider myself as of the tribe of Ephraim.

mtpop
captain of 10
Posts: 40

Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by mtpop »

Sounds like false traditions of our fathers. I think it's time to quit worrying about what we want and learn what God wants us to do.
Last edited by mtpop on November 27th, 2022, 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

mtmom
captain of 100
Posts: 228

Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by mtmom »

Robin Hood wrote: December 15th, 2021, 5:12 am Are there others on the forum who don't observe Christmas, or am I the only one?

We quit the whole thing 3 years ago and have never regretted it. No Nimrod tree, no lights or decorations of any kind, no cards, no presents, no carol services, no FP Christmas devotional.... nothing.
It's great.

All we do is have a meal with the family, which is something we do regularly anyway.

I would be interested to hear from others who feel the same way.
Going through all the comments makes me think you have touched a nerve! Who would have known? 🤔

mtmom
captain of 100
Posts: 228

Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by mtmom »

By the way, even though we ditched the tree this year doesn't mean we didn't give our adult children any gifts ..... We made 16 doz homemade donuts just before Thanksgiving (since all but 2 adult children/families came to our place to celebrate with us). We bagged them up and gave them to our kids & their families as an early Christmas gift. They will last a long time in the fridge or freezer. Just pop one in the microwave for a few minutes, and voilà (wala!)-- fresh homemade donut!

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Niemand
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Posts: 13997

Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by Niemand »

I do see some validity to both sides in this debate. I respect those who do not celebrate Christmas and their reasons for not doing so. I also respect those who try and celebrate a Christian version of it.

But as an aside I do have to laugh at the stupidity of church bureaucracy over this issue. I've discussed the depersonalising of our chapels elsewhere,* but I think I winced visibly during a discussion of Christmas trees today. One of the neighbouring wards was apparently denied permission for a tree recently, whereas we've been given permission. This kind of micromanagement is ridiculous whichever side of the Christmas debate you fall on. It's apparently to do with insurance... not what we've been talking about.

I didn't even dare to ask if we're allowed to get a nativity scene. Presumably if I did, I'd find out we'd have to have a standardised version of it.

* viewtopic.php?p=1246245

mtpop
captain of 10
Posts: 40

Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by mtpop »

harakim wrote: November 26th, 2022, 10:32 pm I like Christmas. Also, the Israelites were the only group commanded to celebrate the holy days. So you're not supposed to celebrate it if you're not an Israelite. You would get the same credit you would get for celebrating Divali and Ramadan. Actually, you would get less than Ramadan probably. If you want to do it to learn history or get context, go right ahead. Just know it's not a righteous act.
There is 12 tribes of Israel. The Jews are one of those tribes. If you are a decent of Abraham or adopted into the house of Abraham these holy days are for you!

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Being There
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Posts: 2868

Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by Being There »

Robin Hood wrote: November 27th, 2022, 1:48 am [youtube][/youtube]
Being There wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:39 pm
mtmom wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:09 am
Robin Hood wrote: December 15th, 2021, 5:12 am Are there others on the forum who don't observe Christmas, or am I the only one?

We quit the whole thing 3 years ago and have never regretted it. No Nimrod tree, no lights or decorations of any kind, no cards, no presents, no carol services, no FP Christmas devotional.... nothing.
It's great.

All we do is have a meal with the family, which is something we do regularly anyway.

I would be interested to hear from others who feel the same way.
We have given our Christmas decorations away to one of our adult children. We are celebrating Hanukkah this year. We will see how it goes.

Jeremiah 10:3-4
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
sorry but the scripture you quoted has nothing to do with a Christmas tree - but of idols and worshiping them.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Christmas-tree.html

"There is nothing in the Bible that either commands or prohibits Christmas trees.
It has been falsely claimed by some that Jeremiah 10:1-16 prohibits the cutting down and decorating of trees
in the same manner as we do at Christmas."



Should we have a Christmas tree?
https://www.gotquestions.org/Christmas-tree.html

The modern custom of a Christmas tree does not come from any form of paganism.
There is no evidence of any pagan religion decorating a special holiday tree for their mid-winter festivals, although the Romans celebrated the winter solstice with a festival called Saturnalia in honor of Saturnus, the god of agriculture. They decorated their houses with greens and lights and exchanged gifts. Late in the Middle Ages, Germans and Scandinavians placed evergreen trees inside their homes or just outside their doors to show their hope in the forthcoming spring. The first Christmas tree was decorated by Protestant Christians in 16th-century Germany. Our modern Christmas tree evolved from these early German traditions, and the custom most likely came to the United States with Hessian troops during the American Revolution, or with German immigrants to Pennsylvania and Ohio.


There is nothing in the Bible that either commands or prohibits Christmas trees.
It has been falsely claimed by some that Jeremiah 10:1-16 prohibits the cutting down and decorating of trees in the same manner as we do at Christmas.

However, even a cursory reading of the text makes it clear that the passage is one in which Jeremiah sets forth the prohibition against idols made of wood, plated with silver and gold, and worshiped.
A similar idea appears in Isaiah 44, where Isaiah speaks of the silliness of the idol-worshipers who cut down a tree, burn part of it in the fire to warm themselves, and use the other part to fashion an idol, which they then bow down to. So unless we bow down before our Christmas tree, carve it into an idol, and pray to it, these passages cannot be applied to Christmas trees.

There is no spiritual significance to having or not having a Christmas tree.
Whatever choice we make, the motive behind a believer’s decision about this, as in all matters of conscience, must be to please the Lord. Romans 14:5-6a sets out the principle in a passage about liberty: “One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.” The Lord is grieved when Christians look down upon one another for either celebrating or not celebrating Christmas in a particular way. This is spiritual pride. When we feel that somehow we have achieved a higher plane of spirituality by doing or not doing something about which the Bible is silent, we misuse our freedom in Christ, create divisions within His body, and thereby dishonor the Lord. “So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God” (1 Corinthians 10:31).
I am really surprised to read this post. The claim that there is no evidence a tree was decorated and used in pagan observance is simply false. The evidence, in fact, is copious. You must know this surely. It's not a secret and is a well known fact.
The passage from Jeremiah is clearly describing the practice of tree decoration. I mean, it actually says it in plain language. To deny that is a clear example of wresting the scriptures.
If you want to observe Christmas with all of its pagan trimmings, that's fine. But I would suggest it is unwise to make these ridiculous claims in order to justify yourself.
The passage from Jeremiah is clearly describing the practice of tree decoration.
I mean, it actually says it in plain language. To deny that is a clear example of wresting the scriptures.
Plain language huh. SMH
and I'm really never surprised - at the (simple-minded) Mormon Mentality - especially when it comes to scriptures.
Talk about wresting the scriptures - and taking scriptures out of context - like this is - to try to prove something -
the way they want to see it - something that's just not there. SMH

Jeremiah 10:3-4
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman,
with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

so of course - immediately - you want to think they are talking about a Christmas tree - lol.
simply because that is what you want to see.
(by the ones that agreed with you - by liking your comment - just shows you how many members are completely off)

Instead of just taking 2 verses out of context - and misinterpret what they are saying -
why don't you actually try to see what he is talking about -
enough to at lest read the next verse - 5 ********
These verses are talking about the making of IDOLS ! - and NOTHING TO DO WITH A CHRISTMAS TREE ! lol.



and NO - I'm not going to debate this endlessly - just because people like you can not stand to be wrong.


Jeremiah 10:5
New International Version

********
5
Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good.”



Jeremiah 10
New International Version
God and Idols

10 Hear what the Lord says to you, people of Israel. 2 This is what the Lord says:

“Do not learn the ways of the nations
or be terrified by signs in the heavens,
though the nations are terrified by them.
3
For the practices of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4
They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.
5
Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good.”


6
No one is like you, Lord;
you are great,
and your name is mighty in power.
7
Who should not fear you,
King of the nations?
This is your due.
Among all the wise leaders of the nations
and in all their kingdoms,
there is no one like you.

8
They are all senseless and foolish;
they are taught by worthless wooden idols.

9
Hammered silver is brought from Tarshish
and gold from Uphaz.
What the craftsman and goldsmith have made
is then dressed in blue and purple—
all made by skilled workers.

10
But the Lord is the true God;
he is the living God, the eternal King.
When he is angry, the earth trembles;
the nations cannot endure his wrath.

11 “Tell them this: ‘These gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth,
will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.’”[a]


12
But God made the earth by his power;
he founded the world by his wisdom
and stretched out the heavens by his understanding.
13
When he thunders, the waters in the heavens roar;
he makes clouds rise from the ends of the earth.
He sends lightning with the rain
and brings out the wind from his storehouses.

14
Everyone is senseless and without knowledge;
every goldsmith is shamed by his idols.
The images he makes are a fraud;
they have no breath in them.

15
They are worthless, the objects of mockery;
when their judgment comes, they will perish.
16
He who is the Portion of Jacob is not like these,
for he is the Maker of all things,
including Israel, the people of his inheritance—
the Lord Almighty is his name.
Last edited by Being There on November 27th, 2022, 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Being There
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Posts: 2868

Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by Being There »

And to quote what this person said -
I think there are some in this thread - that this applies to. (the parts underlined)

There is no spiritual significance to having or not having a Christmas tree.
Whatever choice we make, the motive behind a believer’s decision about this, as in all matters of conscience, must be to please the Lord. Romans 14:5-6a sets out the principle in a passage about liberty: “One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.”

The Lord is grieved when Christians look down upon one another for either celebrating or not celebrating Christmas in a particular way. This is spiritual pride. When we feel that somehow we have achieved a higher plane of spirituality by doing or not doing something about which the Bible is silent, we misuse our freedom in Christ, create divisions within His body, and thereby dishonor the Lord. “So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God
” (1 Corinthians 10:31).

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Being There
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2868

Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by Being There »

Being There wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:59 pm
Being There wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:39 pm
mtmom wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:09 am
Robin Hood wrote: December 15th, 2021, 5:12 am Are there others on the forum who don't observe Christmas, or am I the only one?

We quit the whole thing 3 years ago and have never regretted it. No Nimrod tree, no lights or decorations of any kind, no cards, no presents, no carol services, no FP Christmas devotional.... nothing.
It's great.

All we do is have a meal with the family, which is something we do regularly anyway.

I would be interested to hear from others who feel the same way.
We have given our Christmas decorations away to one of our adult children. We are celebrating Hanukkah this year. We will see how it goes.

Jeremiah 10:3-4
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
sorry but the scripture you quoted has nothing to do with a Christmas tree - but of idols and worshiping them.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Christmas-tree.html

"There is nothing in the Bible that either commands or prohibits Christmas trees.
It has been falsely claimed by some that Jeremiah 10:1-16 prohibits the cutting down and decorating of trees
in the same manner as we do at Christmas."



Should we have a Christmas tree?
https://www.gotquestions.org/Christmas-tree.html

The modern custom of a Christmas tree does not come from any form of paganism.
There is no evidence of any pagan religion decorating a special holiday tree for their mid-winter festivals, although the Romans celebrated the winter solstice with a festival called Saturnalia in honor of Saturnus, the god of agriculture. They decorated their houses with greens and lights and exchanged gifts. Late in the Middle Ages, Germans and Scandinavians placed evergreen trees inside their homes or just outside their doors to show their hope in the forthcoming spring. The first Christmas tree was decorated by Protestant Christians in 16th-century Germany. Our modern Christmas tree evolved from these early German traditions, and the custom most likely came to the United States with Hessian troops during the American Revolution, or with German immigrants to Pennsylvania and Ohio.


There is nothing in the Bible that either commands or prohibits Christmas trees.
It has been falsely claimed by some that Jeremiah 10:1-16 prohibits the cutting down and decorating of trees in the same manner as we do at Christmas.

However, even a cursory reading of the text makes it clear that the passage is one in which Jeremiah sets forth the prohibition against idols made of wood, plated with silver and gold, and worshiped.
A similar idea appears in Isaiah 44, where Isaiah speaks of the silliness of the idol-worshipers who cut down a tree, burn part of it in the fire to warm themselves, and use the other part to fashion an idol, which they then bow down to. So unless we bow down before our Christmas tree, carve it into an idol, and pray to it, these passages cannot be applied to Christmas trees.

There is no spiritual significance to having or not having a Christmas tree.
Whatever choice we make, the motive behind a believer’s decision about this, as in all matters of conscience, must be to please the Lord. Romans 14:5-6a sets out the principle in a passage about liberty: “One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.” The Lord is grieved when Christians look down upon one another for either celebrating or not celebrating Christmas in a particular way. This is spiritual pride. When we feel that somehow we have achieved a higher plane of spirituality by doing or not doing something about which the Bible is silent, we misuse our freedom in Christ, create divisions within His body, and thereby dishonor the Lord. “So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God” (1 Corinthians 10:31).
besides -
ANYTHING - (like CHRISTMAS), that at least helps some people once a year - to think a little less about themselves,
and a little more about our Savior, and about other people - with a spirit of LOVE, HOPE, and GIVING -
couldn't be all that bad.
And to repeat - what I just said -
ANYTHING - (like CHRISTMAS), that at least helps some people once a year - to think a little less about themselves,
and a little more about our Savior, and about other people - with a spirit of LOVE, HOPE, and GIVING -
couldn't be all that bad.
and to say what I've said before.

Christmas is simply how you wish to see it.
You can see it and celebrate it the way the World has made it and commercialized it -
everyone hurrying running around like chickens with their heads cut off -
worried about buying more and more THINGS -
Or it can be very special - having a spirit of love for everyone, and giving to those who are really in need.

Either way -
Whether you believe in Christmas or not - or celebrate it,
during this time (when many are in the cold and are in need - maybe even homeless; or just even lonely)
it can be an opportunity to be more like our Savior - as everyday should be - and not just Christmas.


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User avatar
Robin Hood
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13111
Location: England

Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by Robin Hood »

Being There wrote: November 27th, 2022, 4:26 pm
Robin Hood wrote: November 27th, 2022, 1:48 am [youtube][/youtube]
Being There wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:39 pm
mtmom wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:09 am

We have given our Christmas decorations away to one of our adult children. We are celebrating Hanukkah this year. We will see how it goes.

Jeremiah 10:3-4
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
sorry but the scripture you quoted has nothing to do with a Christmas tree - but of idols and worshiping them.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Christmas-tree.html

"There is nothing in the Bible that either commands or prohibits Christmas trees.
It has been falsely claimed by some that Jeremiah 10:1-16 prohibits the cutting down and decorating of trees
in the same manner as we do at Christmas."



Should we have a Christmas tree?
https://www.gotquestions.org/Christmas-tree.html

The modern custom of a Christmas tree does not come from any form of paganism.
There is no evidence of any pagan religion decorating a special holiday tree for their mid-winter festivals, although the Romans celebrated the winter solstice with a festival called Saturnalia in honor of Saturnus, the god of agriculture. They decorated their houses with greens and lights and exchanged gifts. Late in the Middle Ages, Germans and Scandinavians placed evergreen trees inside their homes or just outside their doors to show their hope in the forthcoming spring. The first Christmas tree was decorated by Protestant Christians in 16th-century Germany. Our modern Christmas tree evolved from these early German traditions, and the custom most likely came to the United States with Hessian troops during the American Revolution, or with German immigrants to Pennsylvania and Ohio.


There is nothing in the Bible that either commands or prohibits Christmas trees.
It has been falsely claimed by some that Jeremiah 10:1-16 prohibits the cutting down and decorating of trees in the same manner as we do at Christmas.

However, even a cursory reading of the text makes it clear that the passage is one in which Jeremiah sets forth the prohibition against idols made of wood, plated with silver and gold, and worshiped.
A similar idea appears in Isaiah 44, where Isaiah speaks of the silliness of the idol-worshipers who cut down a tree, burn part of it in the fire to warm themselves, and use the other part to fashion an idol, which they then bow down to. So unless we bow down before our Christmas tree, carve it into an idol, and pray to it, these passages cannot be applied to Christmas trees.

There is no spiritual significance to having or not having a Christmas tree.
Whatever choice we make, the motive behind a believer’s decision about this, as in all matters of conscience, must be to please the Lord. Romans 14:5-6a sets out the principle in a passage about liberty: “One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.” The Lord is grieved when Christians look down upon one another for either celebrating or not celebrating Christmas in a particular way. This is spiritual pride. When we feel that somehow we have achieved a higher plane of spirituality by doing or not doing something about which the Bible is silent, we misuse our freedom in Christ, create divisions within His body, and thereby dishonor the Lord. “So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God” (1 Corinthians 10:31).
I am really surprised to read this post. The claim that there is no evidence a tree was decorated and used in pagan observance is simply false. The evidence, in fact, is copious. You must know this surely. It's not a secret and is a well known fact.
The passage from Jeremiah is clearly describing the practice of tree decoration. I mean, it actually says it in plain language. To deny that is a clear example of wresting the scriptures.
If you want to observe Christmas with all of its pagan trimmings, that's fine. But I would suggest it is unwise to make these ridiculous claims in order to justify yourself.
The passage from Jeremiah is clearly describing the practice of tree decoration.
I mean, it actually says it in plain language. To deny that is a clear example of wresting the scriptures.
Plain language huh. SMH
and I'm really never surprised - at the (simple-minded) Mormon Mentality - especially when it comes to scriptures.
Talk about wresting the scriptures - and taking scriptures out of context - like this is - to try to prove something -
the way they want to see it - something that's just not there. SMH

Jeremiah 10:3-4
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman,
with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

so of course - immediately - you want to think they are talking about a Christmas tree - lol.
simply because that is what you want to see.
(by the ones that agreed with you - by liking your comment - just shows you how many members are completely off)

Instead of just taking 2 verses out of context - and misinterpret what they are saying -
why don't you actually try to see what he is talking about -
enough to at lest read the next verse - 5 ********
These verses are talking about the making of IDOLS ! - and NOTHING TO DO WITH A CHRISTMAS TREE ! lol.



and NO - I'm not going to debate this endlessly - just because people like you can not stand to be wrong.


Jeremiah 10:5
New International Version

********
5
Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good.”



Jeremiah 10
New International Version
God and Idols

10 Hear what the Lord says to you, people of Israel. 2 This is what the Lord says:

“Do not learn the ways of the nations
or be terrified by signs in the heavens,
though the nations are terrified by them.
3
For the practices of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4
They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.
5
Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good.”


6
No one is like you, Lord;
you are great,
and your name is mighty in power.
7
Who should not fear you,
King of the nations?
This is your due.
Among all the wise leaders of the nations
and in all their kingdoms,
there is no one like you.

8
They are all senseless and foolish;
they are taught by worthless wooden idols.

9
Hammered silver is brought from Tarshish
and gold from Uphaz.
What the craftsman and goldsmith have made
is then dressed in blue and purple—
all made by skilled workers.

10
But the Lord is the true God;
he is the living God, the eternal King.
When he is angry, the earth trembles;
the nations cannot endure his wrath.

11 “Tell them this: ‘These gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth,
will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.’”[a]


12
But God made the earth by his power;
he founded the world by his wisdom
and stretched out the heavens by his understanding.
13
When he thunders, the waters in the heavens roar;
he makes clouds rise from the ends of the earth.
He sends lightning with the rain
and brings out the wind from his storehouses.

14
Everyone is senseless and without knowledge;
every goldsmith is shamed by his idols.
The images he makes are a fraud;
they have no breath in them.

15
They are worthless, the objects of mockery;
when their judgment comes, they will perish.
16
He who is the Portion of Jacob is not like these,
for he is the Maker of all things,
including Israel, the people of his inheritance—
the Lord Almighty is his name.
Scriptural waffle.

I never said "they" were talking about a Christmas tree. I said the scripture was referring to the historical practice of decorating a tree, which it clearly is. I mean, it is. That is clearly what it says. The words are the clue. You know, the ones where it says about cutting a tree and fastening so it doesn't move and decorating it.
This, according to Jeremiah, is a vain practice.
So my point is quite straightforward. If it was vain in Jeremiah's day, could such a practice be vain today?
If not, how so?

You want to link it to the general heading of idolatry. That's fine, no problem with that. Where we differ is that you don't appear to believe reverencing a decorated tree is a form of modern idolatry, whereas I do.
But then I believe the Christus statue, among other things in the modern church, is an idol and you probably don't.
Gentiles love their idols.

User avatar
Being There
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2868

Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by Being There »

Robin Hood wrote: November 27th, 2022, 5:08 pm
Being There wrote: November 27th, 2022, 4:26 pm
Robin Hood wrote: November 27th, 2022, 1:48 am [youtube][/youtube]
Being There wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:39 pm

sorry but the scripture you quoted has nothing to do with a Christmas tree - but of idols and worshiping them.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Christmas-tree.html

"There is nothing in the Bible that either commands or prohibits Christmas trees.
It has been falsely claimed by some that Jeremiah 10:1-16 prohibits the cutting down and decorating of trees
in the same manner as we do at Christmas."



Should we have a Christmas tree?
https://www.gotquestions.org/Christmas-tree.html

The modern custom of a Christmas tree does not come from any form of paganism.
There is no evidence of any pagan religion decorating a special holiday tree for their mid-winter festivals, although the Romans celebrated the winter solstice with a festival called Saturnalia in honor of Saturnus, the god of agriculture. They decorated their houses with greens and lights and exchanged gifts. Late in the Middle Ages, Germans and Scandinavians placed evergreen trees inside their homes or just outside their doors to show their hope in the forthcoming spring. The first Christmas tree was decorated by Protestant Christians in 16th-century Germany. Our modern Christmas tree evolved from these early German traditions, and the custom most likely came to the United States with Hessian troops during the American Revolution, or with German immigrants to Pennsylvania and Ohio.


There is nothing in the Bible that either commands or prohibits Christmas trees.
It has been falsely claimed by some that Jeremiah 10:1-16 prohibits the cutting down and decorating of trees in the same manner as we do at Christmas.

However, even a cursory reading of the text makes it clear that the passage is one in which Jeremiah sets forth the prohibition against idols made of wood, plated with silver and gold, and worshiped.
A similar idea appears in Isaiah 44, where Isaiah speaks of the silliness of the idol-worshipers who cut down a tree, burn part of it in the fire to warm themselves, and use the other part to fashion an idol, which they then bow down to. So unless we bow down before our Christmas tree, carve it into an idol, and pray to it, these passages cannot be applied to Christmas trees.

There is no spiritual significance to having or not having a Christmas tree.
Whatever choice we make, the motive behind a believer’s decision about this, as in all matters of conscience, must be to please the Lord. Romans 14:5-6a sets out the principle in a passage about liberty: “One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.” The Lord is grieved when Christians look down upon one another for either celebrating or not celebrating Christmas in a particular way. This is spiritual pride. When we feel that somehow we have achieved a higher plane of spirituality by doing or not doing something about which the Bible is silent, we misuse our freedom in Christ, create divisions within His body, and thereby dishonor the Lord. “So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God” (1 Corinthians 10:31).
I am really surprised to read this post. The claim that there is no evidence a tree was decorated and used in pagan observance is simply false. The evidence, in fact, is copious. You must know this surely. It's not a secret and is a well known fact.
The passage from Jeremiah is clearly describing the practice of tree decoration. I mean, it actually says it in plain language. To deny that is a clear example of wresting the scriptures.
If you want to observe Christmas with all of its pagan trimmings, that's fine. But I would suggest it is unwise to make these ridiculous claims in order to justify yourself.
The passage from Jeremiah is clearly describing the practice of tree decoration.
I mean, it actually says it in plain language. To deny that is a clear example of wresting the scriptures.
Plain language huh. SMH
and I'm really never surprised - at the (simple-minded) Mormon Mentality - especially when it comes to scriptures.
Talk about wresting the scriptures - and taking scriptures out of context - like this is - to try to prove something -
the way they want to see it - something that's just not there. SMH

Jeremiah 10:3-4
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman,
with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

so of course - immediately - you want to think they are talking about a Christmas tree - lol.
simply because that is what you want to see.
(by the ones that agreed with you - by liking your comment - just shows you how many members are completely off)

Instead of just taking 2 verses out of context - and misinterpret what they are saying -
why don't you actually try to see what he is talking about -
enough to at lest read the next verse - 5 ********
These verses are talking about the making of IDOLS ! - and NOTHING TO DO WITH A CHRISTMAS TREE ! lol.



and NO - I'm not going to debate this endlessly - just because people like you can not stand to be wrong.


Jeremiah 10:5
New International Version

********
5
Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good.”



Jeremiah 10
New International Version
God and Idols

10 Hear what the Lord says to you, people of Israel. 2 This is what the Lord says:

“Do not learn the ways of the nations
or be terrified by signs in the heavens,
though the nations are terrified by them.
3
For the practices of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4
They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.
5
Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good.”


6
No one is like you, Lord;
you are great,
and your name is mighty in power.
7
Who should not fear you,
King of the nations?
This is your due.
Among all the wise leaders of the nations
and in all their kingdoms,
there is no one like you.

8
They are all senseless and foolish;
they are taught by worthless wooden idols.

9
Hammered silver is brought from Tarshish
and gold from Uphaz.
What the craftsman and goldsmith have made
is then dressed in blue and purple—
all made by skilled workers.

10
But the Lord is the true God;
he is the living God, the eternal King.
When he is angry, the earth trembles;
the nations cannot endure his wrath.

11 “Tell them this: ‘These gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth,
will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.’”[a]


12
But God made the earth by his power;
he founded the world by his wisdom
and stretched out the heavens by his understanding.
13
When he thunders, the waters in the heavens roar;
he makes clouds rise from the ends of the earth.
He sends lightning with the rain
and brings out the wind from his storehouses.

14
Everyone is senseless and without knowledge;
every goldsmith is shamed by his idols.
The images he makes are a fraud;
they have no breath in them.

15
They are worthless, the objects of mockery;
when their judgment comes, they will perish.
16
He who is the Portion of Jacob is not like these,
for he is the Maker of all things,
including Israel, the people of his inheritance—
the Lord Almighty is his name.
Scriptural waffle.

I never said "they" were talking about a Christmas tree. I said the scripture was referring to the historical practice of decorating a tree, which it clearly is. I mean, it is. That is clearly what it says. The words are the clue. You know, the ones where it says about cutting a tree and fastening so it doesn't move and decorating it.
This, according to Jeremiah, is a vain practice.
So my point is quite straightforward. If it was vain in Jeremiah's day, could such a practice be vain today?
If not, how so?

You want to link it to the general heading of idolatry. That's fine, no problem with that. Where we differ is that you don't appear to believe reverencing a decorated tree is a form of modern idolatry, whereas I do.
But then I believe the Christus statue, among other things in the modern church, is an idol and you probably don't.
Gentiles love their idols.
why am I not surprised -
that you are still trying to defend yourself when you're obviously wrong.
But I'm through wasting my time on what is the truth - when people like you aren't looking for it -
and can't accept when they are wrong.
So I know you will reply to this - and I'll leave you with your trying to justify why you're right when you're obviously wrong.


The words are the clue huh.
"You know, the ones where it says about cutting a tree and fastening so it doesn't move and decorating it."
It doesn't say that.
I think you overlooked this part (in bold)
It says -
"3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest,
the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

or this is a more accurate translation.

3 For the practices of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.

4
They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.
5
Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good.”


Jeremiah - 3-5, is talking about making idols - OUT OF A TREE ! -
"and fastening so it doesn't move and decorating it.",
and is NOT about the practice of decorating a damn tree. lol.


here is another persons explanation of Jeremiah 10

"Those nations, of course, did not worship the true God of Israel.
And so, I think that’s the reason why now in Jeremiah 10:1-16 the Lord warns his people
to not adopt the idolatry of the surrounding nations.


The sad fact was that they had already done just this – Judah was overrun with idolatry.

So, in these verses the Lord compares and contrasts himself – the true God – with the false gods
of the pagan nations around Judah.


Jeremiah 10 Commentary
Idols of Nations vs. YAHWEH of Israel

10:1 ¶ Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

2 Thus saith the LORD,

Learn not the way of the [heathen/nations/goyim],

and be not [dismayed/terrified/awed] at the signs [of heaven/that occur in the sky];

[for/although] the heathen are [dismayed/awed] at them.

Jeremiah 10 Commentary
Heavenly Events

So, here is where God begins his comparing himself to the idols of the nations.
And as we’ll see, the comparison is not objective. It’s not as if he’s leading us in comparing two vehicles which we could purchase and one has certain strengths and weaknesses and the other is similar.
No, the idols hold nothing for the people who worship them. The Lord alone is the true God.

And because the Lord is alone the living and true God, he said what we just read. Israel would not progress beyond him, as if that were possible. Here the Lord is having to tell his rebellious people that the religion of the nations wouldn’t do a thing for them.

The particular religious practice of the surrounding pagan nations that the Lord singled out in Jeremiah 10:1-2 is the attention that they would pay to signs in the heavens. Whether that be comets and eclipses and meteors – things that were more unusual and conspicuous. Or whether that be the changes of the positions of the sun and moon and stars. The pagans would put great significance on these events and even worship those heavenly bodies.

The Lord here tells Israel that this is not a practice which they should be observing. “Don’t be awed by the things going on in the sky in the way that the pagans are. Don’t follow their idolatrous practices in any way – but certainly not in their worshiping heavenly bodies and giving them the same fear that is due to the Lord alone.”
Jeremiah 10 Commentary
Against Idols

But beyond the pagan religious observation of heavenly events,
the Lord warns his people to not pay attention to their hand-crafted idols either in Jeremiah 10:3-5.

3 For the [customs/religion] of the people [i.e., the nations] are [vain/delusion/worthless]:

for one cutteth a tree out of the forest,

the work of the hands of [the workman/a craftsman], with the axe.

4 They [deck/decorate] it with silver and with gold;

they fasten it with nails and with hammers,

[that/so that] it [move/totter/fall over] not.

5 They [i.e., the idols] are upright as the palm tree, but speak not:

they must needs be [borne/carried], because they cannot [go/walk].

Be not afraid of them;

for they cannot do [evil/harm],

neither also is it in them to [do good/help].


What a ridiculous picture of these supposedly-powerful idols. God brings it down to such an earthly mundane level.

He walks the people through how these worthless idols are made.
The guy goes into a forest and cuts down a tree. It’s a tree, man! This is no god!
The guy takes an axe to it. His lowly, earthly, man-made axe. This is how he makes his god, his idol.
The guy has to decorate his silly idol with gold and silver.
The idol can’t do that himself of course, because he really is just a lump of wood.
Then the guy who cut down the lump of wood with his man-made axe needs to hammer nails into the thing
so that it doesn’t tip over.
How powerful can this block of wood be if he needs human help to not tip over??

The idol can’t speak – so if it really is a God how do you know what it’s thinking or desiring from you as its worshiper?

It can’t move around on its own. It actually needs its worshipers to carry it.

So are you really going to fear something like this?
A piece of wood chopped down by a man who then carves it and puts metal on it
and has to make sure it doesn’t fall over?
It can’t talk and it can’t walk. Are you really going to fear this thing, Israel? You shouldn’t!

The thing can’t do any good or any evil. It can’t harm and it can’t help. Don’t fear it.

And don’t learn these ways of the nations that are so worthless!


Jeremiah 10 Commentary
Idols Again

And in fact, the wise-men of the nations – that we’ve just been talking about – are wise in name only. Jeremiah makes and then justifies that assertion in Jeremiah 10:8-9.

8 But they are altogether [brutish/stupid] and foolish:

the [stock/wood] is a doctrine of vanities [the instruction of vanities is wood – instruction from a wooden idol is worthless!].

9 [Silver spread into plates/beaten silver/hammered-out silver] is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz [i.e., to cover the idols],

the work of [the workman/a craftsman/carpenters], and of the hands of [the founder/a goldsmith]:

[blue/violet] and purple is their clothing:

they are all the work of [cunning/skilled] men.

So, what wisdom can professing wise men have when they worship dumb idols?
Jeremiah 10 Commentary
YAHWEH Again

Now, contrast the folly and worthlessness of those idols to the only-true, all-powerful, ever-living, and – most sobering of all – really angry Lord of Israel in Jeremiah 10:10.

10 But the LORD is the [ie, only] true God,

he is the living God, and an everlasting king:

at his wrath the earth [shall tremble/quakes/shakes],

and the nations [shall not be able to abide/cannot endure] his [indignation/fury].

Jeremiah 10 Commentary
Idols Once More

And as a result of the wrath of this only-real Deity – the Lord of Israel – all the worthless fake idols that are competing with him for the hearts of his people will perish according to Jeremiah 10:11.

11 ¶ Thus shall ye [i.e., Israel] say unto them [i.e., the nations],

The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth,

even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens. [Only verse in Jer in Aramaic; chiasm; poetic]

This statement then apparently was intended to be uttered by Israel to the pagan nations – “ye” would be Israel. This was God’s desire for his people Israel – that they utter these words to their heathen neighbors.

The false gods of the pagans will be destroyed from the very places they had no business in creating. But how sad that Israel never seemed to fulfill this intention of the Lord. From the very get-go they’re worshiping these very idols that can do nothing for them. They get the Law from God and a few hours later they’re engaged in idolatry. They enter the Promised Land and maybe just a few short years later they’re adopting these false gods of the surrounding pagan nations.

And now here in Jeremiah’s day, about 1000 years after the giving of the Law and the entering into Canaan, God is still expressing this desire for them to be to him a nation of priests – of mediators between him and the world. But Israel failed then and it’s still failing. And God is using the Church now in this capacity. How are we doing? He’ll use Israel again in the future. But for now, if we don’t do this, no one will.


Jeremiah 10 Commentary
Idols

And yet the pagan nations and the Israelites who were thinking and behaving no differently than them thought that worthless false gods like Baal were sending that rain. And because of that, God in Jeremiah 10:14-15 comes right out and calls people like this “stupid” – well, “brutish” in the KJV, which is basically the same thing.

14 Every man [i.e., who is an idolater] is [brutish/stupid] in his knowledge:

every [founder/goldsmith] is [confounded/put to shame/disgraced] by the graven image:

for his molten image is [falsehood/deceitful/a mere sham],

and there is no breath in them.

15 They are [vanity/worthless], and the work of [errors/mockery]:

in the time of their [visitation/punishment] they shall perish.

So, this is the parting word regarding idols in this section. They will perish and the ones involved in making them will be disgraced.

Light Seeker
captain of 100
Posts: 422

Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by Light Seeker »

My family and I studied out the topic and chose to stop following the pagan traditions of our fathers. Our children 10 and 13, don’t want to be associated with it any longer, and see the overall distraction and propaganda of it. Every day is an opportunity to remember the Savior; his life and mission. We covenant weekly to always remember Him.

It is sad to see the focus on Temple Square adorned with multiple pagan trees and the Rameumptum “Light the world” boxes for all to see.

From what we’ve read, the Bible is pretty clear.

Light Seeker
captain of 100
Posts: 422

Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by Light Seeker »

This is a fascinating read and take on what seems to be a lie perpetrated upon decent “Christian folk”.


The Surprising Truth: Christians Once Banned Christmas
By Remy Melina published December 14, 2010



It may seem like Christmas has always been celebrated in the United States, but that's not the case. In fact, the joyous religious holiday was actually banned in America for several decades by Christians themselves.


The original war on Christmas was waged during the sixteenth and seventeenth century by Puritans, or Protestant Christians who believed that people needed strict rules to be religious and that any kind of merrymaking was sinful.

"Shocking as it sounds, followers of Jesus Christ in both America and England helped pass laws making it illegal to observe Christmas, believing it was an insult to God to honor a day associated with ancient paganism," according to "Shocked by the Bible" (Thomas Nelson Inc, 2008). "Most Americans today are unaware that Christmas was banned in Boston from 1659 to 1681.

All Christmas activities, including dancing, seasonal plays, games, singing carols, cheerful celebration and especially drinking were banned by the Puritan-dominated Parliament of England in 1644, with the Puritans of New England following suit. Christmas was outlawed in Boston, and the Plymouth colony made celebrating Christmas a criminal offense, according to "Once Upon a Gospel" (Twenty-Third Publications, 2008).


Christmas trees and decorations were considered to be unholy pagan rituals, and the Puritans also banned traditional Christmas foods such as mince pies and pudding. Puritan laws required that stores and businesses remain open all day on Christmas, and town criers walked through the streets on Christmas Eve calling out "No Christmas, no Christmas!"

In England, the ban on the holiday was lifted in 1660, when Charles II took over the throne. However, the Puritan presence remained in New England and Christmas did not become a legal holiday there until 1856. Even then, some schools continued to hold classes on December 25 until 1870.

Although the change was gradual, people began to once again embrace the holiday until Christmas as we know it today complete with mistletoe, eggnog and candy canes was celebrated throughout the American colonies
Last edited by Light Seeker on November 27th, 2022, 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Light Seeker
captain of 100
Posts: 422

Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by Light Seeker »

Read up a little about Krampus .

Doesn’t seem Christian to me .

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krampus

Below is part of the Wikipedia on Krampus but click on the link above to read much more .

Krampus
Article Talk

Krampus is a horned, anthropomorphic figure in Central and Eastern Alpine folklore who, during the Christmas season, scares children who have misbehaved. Assisting Saint Nicholas, or Santa Claus, the pair visit children on the night of December 5th, with Saint Nicholas rewarding the well-behaved children with modest gifts such as oranges, dried fruit, walnuts and chocolate, while the badly behaved ones only receive punishment from Krampus with birch rods.[1]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mi ... _1900s.jpg
1900s illustration of Saint Nicholas and Krampus visiting a child
The origin of the figure is unclear; some folklorists and anthropologists have postulated it as having pre-Christian origins.[2] In traditional parades and in such events as the Krampuslauf (English: Krampus run), young men participate dressed as Krampus and attempt to scare the audience with their antics.[3] Such events occur annually in most Alpine towns.[4] Krampus is featured on holiday greeting cards called Krampuskarten.

Light Seeker
captain of 100
Posts: 422

Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by Light Seeker »

Most people within the Church find solace that no one seems to have made an official statement against the observance of the pagan holiday and receive tacit approval everywhere we turn as Mormons . It’s justified by statements like “ I prefer to focus on the birth of Jesus” in a month when we know Christ wasn’t born ….

Light Seeker
captain of 100
Posts: 422

Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by Light Seeker »

For those that are interested do a Google search on Krampus and pull up images . What type of spirit do these pictures evoke ?

I always wondered most of my life about the lyrics of the Christmas song “ It’s the most wonderful time of year” where they mention the scary ghost stories of Christmases long , long ago.

These images start to make more sense .


https://www.google.com/search?q=krampus ... 14&bih=715

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Robin Hood
Level 34 Illuminated
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Location: England

Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by Robin Hood »

Being There wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:06 pm
Robin Hood wrote: November 27th, 2022, 5:08 pm
Being There wrote: November 27th, 2022, 4:26 pm
Robin Hood wrote: November 27th, 2022, 1:48 am [youtube][/youtube]

I am really surprised to read this post. The claim that there is no evidence a tree was decorated and used in pagan observance is simply false. The evidence, in fact, is copious. You must know this surely. It's not a secret and is a well known fact.
The passage from Jeremiah is clearly describing the practice of tree decoration. I mean, it actually says it in plain language. To deny that is a clear example of wresting the scriptures.
If you want to observe Christmas with all of its pagan trimmings, that's fine. But I would suggest it is unwise to make these ridiculous claims in order to justify yourself.
The passage from Jeremiah is clearly describing the practice of tree decoration.
I mean, it actually says it in plain language. To deny that is a clear example of wresting the scriptures.
Plain language huh. SMH
and I'm really never surprised - at the (simple-minded) Mormon Mentality - especially when it comes to scriptures.
Talk about wresting the scriptures - and taking scriptures out of context - like this is - to try to prove something -
the way they want to see it - something that's just not there. SMH

Jeremiah 10:3-4
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman,
with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

so of course - immediately - you want to think they are talking about a Christmas tree - lol.
simply because that is what you want to see.
(by the ones that agreed with you - by liking your comment - just shows you how many members are completely off)

Instead of just taking 2 verses out of context - and misinterpret what they are saying -
why don't you actually try to see what he is talking about -
enough to at lest read the next verse - 5 ********
These verses are talking about the making of IDOLS ! - and NOTHING TO DO WITH A CHRISTMAS TREE ! lol.



and NO - I'm not going to debate this endlessly - just because people like you can not stand to be wrong.


Jeremiah 10:5
New International Version

********
5
Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good.”



Jeremiah 10
New International Version
God and Idols

10 Hear what the Lord says to you, people of Israel. 2 This is what the Lord says:

“Do not learn the ways of the nations
or be terrified by signs in the heavens,
though the nations are terrified by them.
3
For the practices of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4
They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.
5
Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good.”


6
No one is like you, Lord;
you are great,
and your name is mighty in power.
7
Who should not fear you,
King of the nations?
This is your due.
Among all the wise leaders of the nations
and in all their kingdoms,
there is no one like you.

8
They are all senseless and foolish;
they are taught by worthless wooden idols.

9
Hammered silver is brought from Tarshish
and gold from Uphaz.
What the craftsman and goldsmith have made
is then dressed in blue and purple—
all made by skilled workers.

10
But the Lord is the true God;
he is the living God, the eternal King.
When he is angry, the earth trembles;
the nations cannot endure his wrath.

11 “Tell them this: ‘These gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth,
will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.’”[a]


12
But God made the earth by his power;
he founded the world by his wisdom
and stretched out the heavens by his understanding.
13
When he thunders, the waters in the heavens roar;
he makes clouds rise from the ends of the earth.
He sends lightning with the rain
and brings out the wind from his storehouses.

14
Everyone is senseless and without knowledge;
every goldsmith is shamed by his idols.
The images he makes are a fraud;
they have no breath in them.

15
They are worthless, the objects of mockery;
when their judgment comes, they will perish.
16
He who is the Portion of Jacob is not like these,
for he is the Maker of all things,
including Israel, the people of his inheritance—
the Lord Almighty is his name.
Scriptural waffle.

I never said "they" were talking about a Christmas tree. I said the scripture was referring to the historical practice of decorating a tree, which it clearly is. I mean, it is. That is clearly what it says. The words are the clue. You know, the ones where it says about cutting a tree and fastening so it doesn't move and decorating it.
This, according to Jeremiah, is a vain practice.
So my point is quite straightforward. If it was vain in Jeremiah's day, could such a practice be vain today?
If not, how so?

You want to link it to the general heading of idolatry. That's fine, no problem with that. Where we differ is that you don't appear to believe reverencing a decorated tree is a form of modern idolatry, whereas I do.
But then I believe the Christus statue, among other things in the modern church, is an idol and you probably don't.
Gentiles love their idols.
why am I not surprised -
that you are still trying to defend yourself when you're obviously wrong.
But I'm through wasting my time on what is the truth - when people like you aren't looking for it -
and can't accept when they are wrong.
So I know you will reply to this - and I'll leave you with your trying to justify why you're right when you're obviously wrong.


The words are the clue huh.
"You know, the ones where it says about cutting a tree and fastening so it doesn't move and decorating it."
It doesn't say that.
I think you overlooked this part (in bold)
It says -
"3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest,
the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

or this is a more accurate translation.

3 For the practices of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.

4
They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.
5
Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good.”


Jeremiah - 3-5, is talking about making idols - OUT OF A TREE ! -
"and fastening so it doesn't move and decorating it.",
and is NOT about the practice of decorating a damn tree. lol.


here is another persons explanation of Jeremiah 10

"Those nations, of course, did not worship the true God of Israel.
And so, I think that’s the reason why now in Jeremiah 10:1-16 the Lord warns his people
to not adopt the idolatry of the surrounding nations.


The sad fact was that they had already done just this – Judah was overrun with idolatry.

So, in these verses the Lord compares and contrasts himself – the true God – with the false gods
of the pagan nations around Judah.


Jeremiah 10 Commentary
Idols of Nations vs. YAHWEH of Israel

10:1 ¶ Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

2 Thus saith the LORD,

Learn not the way of the [heathen/nations/goyim],

and be not [dismayed/terrified/awed] at the signs [of heaven/that occur in the sky];

[for/although] the heathen are [dismayed/awed] at them.

Jeremiah 10 Commentary
Heavenly Events

So, here is where God begins his comparing himself to the idols of the nations.
And as we’ll see, the comparison is not objective. It’s not as if he’s leading us in comparing two vehicles which we could purchase and one has certain strengths and weaknesses and the other is similar.
No, the idols hold nothing for the people who worship them. The Lord alone is the true God.

And because the Lord is alone the living and true God, he said what we just read. Israel would not progress beyond him, as if that were possible. Here the Lord is having to tell his rebellious people that the religion of the nations wouldn’t do a thing for them.

The particular religious practice of the surrounding pagan nations that the Lord singled out in Jeremiah 10:1-2 is the attention that they would pay to signs in the heavens. Whether that be comets and eclipses and meteors – things that were more unusual and conspicuous. Or whether that be the changes of the positions of the sun and moon and stars. The pagans would put great significance on these events and even worship those heavenly bodies.

The Lord here tells Israel that this is not a practice which they should be observing. “Don’t be awed by the things going on in the sky in the way that the pagans are. Don’t follow their idolatrous practices in any way – but certainly not in their worshiping heavenly bodies and giving them the same fear that is due to the Lord alone.”
Jeremiah 10 Commentary
Against Idols

But beyond the pagan religious observation of heavenly events,
the Lord warns his people to not pay attention to their hand-crafted idols either in Jeremiah 10:3-5.

3 For the [customs/religion] of the people [i.e., the nations] are [vain/delusion/worthless]:

for one cutteth a tree out of the forest,

the work of the hands of [the workman/a craftsman], with the axe.

4 They [deck/decorate] it with silver and with gold;

they fasten it with nails and with hammers,

[that/so that] it [move/totter/fall over] not.

5 They [i.e., the idols] are upright as the palm tree, but speak not:

they must needs be [borne/carried], because they cannot [go/walk].

Be not afraid of them;

for they cannot do [evil/harm],

neither also is it in them to [do good/help].


What a ridiculous picture of these supposedly-powerful idols. God brings it down to such an earthly mundane level.

He walks the people through how these worthless idols are made.
The guy goes into a forest and cuts down a tree. It’s a tree, man! This is no god!
The guy takes an axe to it. His lowly, earthly, man-made axe. This is how he makes his god, his idol.
The guy has to decorate his silly idol with gold and silver.
The idol can’t do that himself of course, because he really is just a lump of wood.
Then the guy who cut down the lump of wood with his man-made axe needs to hammer nails into the thing
so that it doesn’t tip over.
How powerful can this block of wood be if he needs human help to not tip over??

The idol can’t speak – so if it really is a God how do you know what it’s thinking or desiring from you as its worshiper?

It can’t move around on its own. It actually needs its worshipers to carry it.

So are you really going to fear something like this?
A piece of wood chopped down by a man who then carves it and puts metal on it
and has to make sure it doesn’t fall over?
It can’t talk and it can’t walk. Are you really going to fear this thing, Israel? You shouldn’t!

The thing can’t do any good or any evil. It can’t harm and it can’t help. Don’t fear it.

And don’t learn these ways of the nations that are so worthless!


Jeremiah 10 Commentary
Idols Again

And in fact, the wise-men of the nations – that we’ve just been talking about – are wise in name only. Jeremiah makes and then justifies that assertion in Jeremiah 10:8-9.

8 But they are altogether [brutish/stupid] and foolish:

the [stock/wood] is a doctrine of vanities [the instruction of vanities is wood – instruction from a wooden idol is worthless!].

9 [Silver spread into plates/beaten silver/hammered-out silver] is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz [i.e., to cover the idols],

the work of [the workman/a craftsman/carpenters], and of the hands of [the founder/a goldsmith]:

[blue/violet] and purple is their clothing:

they are all the work of [cunning/skilled] men.

So, what wisdom can professing wise men have when they worship dumb idols?
Jeremiah 10 Commentary
YAHWEH Again

Now, contrast the folly and worthlessness of those idols to the only-true, all-powerful, ever-living, and – most sobering of all – really angry Lord of Israel in Jeremiah 10:10.

10 But the LORD is the [ie, only] true God,

he is the living God, and an everlasting king:

at his wrath the earth [shall tremble/quakes/shakes],

and the nations [shall not be able to abide/cannot endure] his [indignation/fury].

Jeremiah 10 Commentary
Idols Once More

And as a result of the wrath of this only-real Deity – the Lord of Israel – all the worthless fake idols that are competing with him for the hearts of his people will perish according to Jeremiah 10:11.

11 ¶ Thus shall ye [i.e., Israel] say unto them [i.e., the nations],

The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth,

even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens. [Only verse in Jer in Aramaic; chiasm; poetic]

This statement then apparently was intended to be uttered by Israel to the pagan nations – “ye” would be Israel. This was God’s desire for his people Israel – that they utter these words to their heathen neighbors.

The false gods of the pagans will be destroyed from the very places they had no business in creating. But how sad that Israel never seemed to fulfill this intention of the Lord. From the very get-go they’re worshiping these very idols that can do nothing for them. They get the Law from God and a few hours later they’re engaged in idolatry. They enter the Promised Land and maybe just a few short years later they’re adopting these false gods of the surrounding pagan nations.

And now here in Jeremiah’s day, about 1000 years after the giving of the Law and the entering into Canaan, God is still expressing this desire for them to be to him a nation of priests – of mediators between him and the world. But Israel failed then and it’s still failing. And God is using the Church now in this capacity. How are we doing? He’ll use Israel again in the future. But for now, if we don’t do this, no one will.


Jeremiah 10 Commentary
Idols

And yet the pagan nations and the Israelites who were thinking and behaving no differently than them thought that worthless false gods like Baal were sending that rain. And because of that, God in Jeremiah 10:14-15 comes right out and calls people like this “stupid” – well, “brutish” in the KJV, which is basically the same thing.

14 Every man [i.e., who is an idolater] is [brutish/stupid] in his knowledge:

every [founder/goldsmith] is [confounded/put to shame/disgraced] by the graven image:

for his molten image is [falsehood/deceitful/a mere sham],

and there is no breath in them.

15 They are [vanity/worthless], and the work of [errors/mockery]:

in the time of their [visitation/punishment] they shall perish.

So, this is the parting word regarding idols in this section. They will perish and the ones involved in making them will be disgraced.
You can huff and puff all you like, but you're not being scripturally honest and I think you know it.
But that's fine. Go ahead and celebrate your pagan festivities to your hearts content. I care not one jot.
But why do you care what I do?

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13997

Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by Niemand »

Light Seeker wrote: November 27th, 2022, 7:26 pm In England, the ban on the holiday was lifted in 1660, when Charles II took over the throne. However, the Puritan presence remained in New England and Christmas did not become a legal holiday there until 1856. Even then, some schools continued to hold classes on December 25 until 1870.

Although the change was gradual, people began to once again embrace the holiday until Christmas as we know it today complete with mistletoe, eggnog and candy canes was celebrated throughout the American colonies
That's nothing. Christmas was a working day in Scotland into the 1960s!

I would argue that the way Puritans attacked Christmas was for entirely different motives from those who try to dechristianise Christmas today. The Puritans had Christian motivations for what they did, whereas those who attack it today have anti-Christian motivations. Ironic, isn't it?
Light Seeker wrote: November 27th, 2022, 7:36 pm Read up a little about Krampus .

Doesn’t seem Christian to me .
No one's really interested in Krampus in English speaking countries other than Metalheads and edgier Hipsters. I think there was a horror film about Krampus a few years ago which vanished without much trace. (The one about flesh eating snowmen was far more fun.)

It's safe to say that Krampus isn't part of the Christmas tradition of anyone round here.

If you want tasteless Christmas, as only the Japanese can do it... they had a crucified Santa up as a display in a Japanese shopping centre some years ago. Most Japanese are a bit confused when it comes to Christianity.

User avatar
Being There
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2868

Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by Being There »

Robin Hood wrote: November 28th, 2022, 12:53 am
Being There wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:06 pm
Robin Hood wrote: November 27th, 2022, 5:08 pm
Being There wrote: November 27th, 2022, 4:26 pm



Plain language huh. SMH
and I'm really never surprised - at the (simple-minded) Mormon Mentality - especially when it comes to scriptures.
Talk about wresting the scriptures - and taking scriptures out of context - like this is - to try to prove something -
the way they want to see it - something that's just not there. SMH

Jeremiah 10:3-4
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman,
with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

so of course - immediately - you want to think they are talking about a Christmas tree - lol.
simply because that is what you want to see.
(by the ones that agreed with you - by liking your comment - just shows you how many members are completely off)

Instead of just taking 2 verses out of context - and misinterpret what they are saying -
why don't you actually try to see what he is talking about -
enough to at lest read the next verse - 5 ********
These verses are talking about the making of IDOLS ! - and NOTHING TO DO WITH A CHRISTMAS TREE ! lol.



and NO - I'm not going to debate this endlessly - just because people like you can not stand to be wrong.


Jeremiah 10:5
New International Version

********
5
Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good.”



Jeremiah 10
New International Version
God and Idols

10 Hear what the Lord says to you, people of Israel. 2 This is what the Lord says:

“Do not learn the ways of the nations
or be terrified by signs in the heavens,
though the nations are terrified by them.
3
For the practices of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4
They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.
5
Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good.”


6
No one is like you, Lord;
you are great,
and your name is mighty in power.
7
Who should not fear you,
King of the nations?
This is your due.
Among all the wise leaders of the nations
and in all their kingdoms,
there is no one like you.

8
They are all senseless and foolish;
they are taught by worthless wooden idols.

9
Hammered silver is brought from Tarshish
and gold from Uphaz.
What the craftsman and goldsmith have made
is then dressed in blue and purple—
all made by skilled workers.

10
But the Lord is the true God;
he is the living God, the eternal King.
When he is angry, the earth trembles;
the nations cannot endure his wrath.

11 “Tell them this: ‘These gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth,
will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.’”[a]


12
But God made the earth by his power;
he founded the world by his wisdom
and stretched out the heavens by his understanding.
13
When he thunders, the waters in the heavens roar;
he makes clouds rise from the ends of the earth.
He sends lightning with the rain
and brings out the wind from his storehouses.

14
Everyone is senseless and without knowledge;
every goldsmith is shamed by his idols.
The images he makes are a fraud;
they have no breath in them.

15
They are worthless, the objects of mockery;
when their judgment comes, they will perish.
16
He who is the Portion of Jacob is not like these,
for he is the Maker of all things,
including Israel, the people of his inheritance—
the Lord Almighty is his name.
Scriptural waffle.

I never said "they" were talking about a Christmas tree. I said the scripture was referring to the historical practice of decorating a tree, which it clearly is. I mean, it is. That is clearly what it says. The words are the clue. You know, the ones where it says about cutting a tree and fastening so it doesn't move and decorating it.
This, according to Jeremiah, is a vain practice.
So my point is quite straightforward. If it was vain in Jeremiah's day, could such a practice be vain today?
If not, how so?

You want to link it to the general heading of idolatry. That's fine, no problem with that. Where we differ is that you don't appear to believe reverencing a decorated tree is a form of modern idolatry, whereas I do.
But then I believe the Christus statue, among other things in the modern church, is an idol and you probably don't.
Gentiles love their idols.
why am I not surprised -
that you are still trying to defend yourself when you're obviously wrong.
But I'm through wasting my time on what is the truth - when people like you aren't looking for it -
and can't accept when they are wrong.
So I know you will reply to this - and I'll leave you with your trying to justify why you're right when you're obviously wrong.


The words are the clue huh.
"You know, the ones where it says about cutting a tree and fastening so it doesn't move and decorating it."
It doesn't say that.
I think you overlooked this part (in bold)
It says -
"3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest,
the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

or this is a more accurate translation.

3 For the practices of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.

4
They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.
5
Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good.”


Jeremiah - 3-5, is talking about making idols - OUT OF A TREE ! -
"and fastening so it doesn't move and decorating it.",
and is NOT about the practice of decorating a damn tree. lol.


here is another persons explanation of Jeremiah 10

"Those nations, of course, did not worship the true God of Israel.
And so, I think that’s the reason why now in Jeremiah 10:1-16 the Lord warns his people
to not adopt the idolatry of the surrounding nations.


The sad fact was that they had already done just this – Judah was overrun with idolatry.

So, in these verses the Lord compares and contrasts himself – the true God – with the false gods
of the pagan nations around Judah.


Jeremiah 10 Commentary
Idols of Nations vs. YAHWEH of Israel

10:1 ¶ Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

2 Thus saith the LORD,

Learn not the way of the [heathen/nations/goyim],

and be not [dismayed/terrified/awed] at the signs [of heaven/that occur in the sky];

[for/although] the heathen are [dismayed/awed] at them.

Jeremiah 10 Commentary
Heavenly Events

So, here is where God begins his comparing himself to the idols of the nations.
And as we’ll see, the comparison is not objective. It’s not as if he’s leading us in comparing two vehicles which we could purchase and one has certain strengths and weaknesses and the other is similar.
No, the idols hold nothing for the people who worship them. The Lord alone is the true God.

And because the Lord is alone the living and true God, he said what we just read. Israel would not progress beyond him, as if that were possible. Here the Lord is having to tell his rebellious people that the religion of the nations wouldn’t do a thing for them.

The particular religious practice of the surrounding pagan nations that the Lord singled out in Jeremiah 10:1-2 is the attention that they would pay to signs in the heavens. Whether that be comets and eclipses and meteors – things that were more unusual and conspicuous. Or whether that be the changes of the positions of the sun and moon and stars. The pagans would put great significance on these events and even worship those heavenly bodies.

The Lord here tells Israel that this is not a practice which they should be observing. “Don’t be awed by the things going on in the sky in the way that the pagans are. Don’t follow their idolatrous practices in any way – but certainly not in their worshiping heavenly bodies and giving them the same fear that is due to the Lord alone.”
Jeremiah 10 Commentary
Against Idols

But beyond the pagan religious observation of heavenly events,
the Lord warns his people to not pay attention to their hand-crafted idols either in Jeremiah 10:3-5.

3 For the [customs/religion] of the people [i.e., the nations] are [vain/delusion/worthless]:

for one cutteth a tree out of the forest,

the work of the hands of [the workman/a craftsman], with the axe.

4 They [deck/decorate] it with silver and with gold;

they fasten it with nails and with hammers,

[that/so that] it [move/totter/fall over] not.

5 They [i.e., the idols] are upright as the palm tree, but speak not:

they must needs be [borne/carried], because they cannot [go/walk].

Be not afraid of them;

for they cannot do [evil/harm],

neither also is it in them to [do good/help].


What a ridiculous picture of these supposedly-powerful idols. God brings it down to such an earthly mundane level.

He walks the people through how these worthless idols are made.
The guy goes into a forest and cuts down a tree. It’s a tree, man! This is no god!
The guy takes an axe to it. His lowly, earthly, man-made axe. This is how he makes his god, his idol.
The guy has to decorate his silly idol with gold and silver.
The idol can’t do that himself of course, because he really is just a lump of wood.
Then the guy who cut down the lump of wood with his man-made axe needs to hammer nails into the thing
so that it doesn’t tip over.
How powerful can this block of wood be if he needs human help to not tip over??

The idol can’t speak – so if it really is a God how do you know what it’s thinking or desiring from you as its worshiper?

It can’t move around on its own. It actually needs its worshipers to carry it.

So are you really going to fear something like this?
A piece of wood chopped down by a man who then carves it and puts metal on it
and has to make sure it doesn’t fall over?
It can’t talk and it can’t walk. Are you really going to fear this thing, Israel? You shouldn’t!

The thing can’t do any good or any evil. It can’t harm and it can’t help. Don’t fear it.

And don’t learn these ways of the nations that are so worthless!


Jeremiah 10 Commentary
Idols Again

And in fact, the wise-men of the nations – that we’ve just been talking about – are wise in name only. Jeremiah makes and then justifies that assertion in Jeremiah 10:8-9.

8 But they are altogether [brutish/stupid] and foolish:

the [stock/wood] is a doctrine of vanities [the instruction of vanities is wood – instruction from a wooden idol is worthless!].

9 [Silver spread into plates/beaten silver/hammered-out silver] is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz [i.e., to cover the idols],

the work of [the workman/a craftsman/carpenters], and of the hands of [the founder/a goldsmith]:

[blue/violet] and purple is their clothing:

they are all the work of [cunning/skilled] men.

So, what wisdom can professing wise men have when they worship dumb idols?
Jeremiah 10 Commentary
YAHWEH Again

Now, contrast the folly and worthlessness of those idols to the only-true, all-powerful, ever-living, and – most sobering of all – really angry Lord of Israel in Jeremiah 10:10.

10 But the LORD is the [ie, only] true God,

he is the living God, and an everlasting king:

at his wrath the earth [shall tremble/quakes/shakes],

and the nations [shall not be able to abide/cannot endure] his [indignation/fury].

Jeremiah 10 Commentary
Idols Once More

And as a result of the wrath of this only-real Deity – the Lord of Israel – all the worthless fake idols that are competing with him for the hearts of his people will perish according to Jeremiah 10:11.

11 ¶ Thus shall ye [i.e., Israel] say unto them [i.e., the nations],

The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth,

even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens. [Only verse in Jer in Aramaic; chiasm; poetic]

This statement then apparently was intended to be uttered by Israel to the pagan nations – “ye” would be Israel. This was God’s desire for his people Israel – that they utter these words to their heathen neighbors.

The false gods of the pagans will be destroyed from the very places they had no business in creating. But how sad that Israel never seemed to fulfill this intention of the Lord. From the very get-go they’re worshiping these very idols that can do nothing for them. They get the Law from God and a few hours later they’re engaged in idolatry. They enter the Promised Land and maybe just a few short years later they’re adopting these false gods of the surrounding pagan nations.

And now here in Jeremiah’s day, about 1000 years after the giving of the Law and the entering into Canaan, God is still expressing this desire for them to be to him a nation of priests – of mediators between him and the world. But Israel failed then and it’s still failing. And God is using the Church now in this capacity. How are we doing? He’ll use Israel again in the future. But for now, if we don’t do this, no one will.


Jeremiah 10 Commentary
Idols

And yet the pagan nations and the Israelites who were thinking and behaving no differently than them thought that worthless false gods like Baal were sending that rain. And because of that, God in Jeremiah 10:14-15 comes right out and calls people like this “stupid” – well, “brutish” in the KJV, which is basically the same thing.

14 Every man [i.e., who is an idolater] is [brutish/stupid] in his knowledge:

every [founder/goldsmith] is [confounded/put to shame/disgraced] by the graven image:

for his molten image is [falsehood/deceitful/a mere sham],

and there is no breath in them.

15 They are [vanity/worthless], and the work of [errors/mockery]:

in the time of their [visitation/punishment] they shall perish.

So, this is the parting word regarding idols in this section. They will perish and the ones involved in making them will be disgraced.
You can huff and puff all you like, but you're not being scripturally honest and I think you know it.
But that's fine. Go ahead and celebrate your pagan festivities to your hearts content. I care not one jot.
But why do you care what I do?
more like YOU can huff and puff all you like, but it's not going to change the truth about these scriptures
and you being wrong.

So go ahead and join the others that think they are spiritually above the rest of us -
for not celebrating Christmas
simply because they think they found some (false) scripture that they got from someone somewhere -
(that they misinterpret), that they think is talking about decorating a tree (when it's clearly NOT),
and that Christmas shouldn't be celebrated. lol.

Go ahead and be Scrooge - and sit alone on Christmas to your hearts content -
(instead of sharing the Christmas spirit of joy, and love with others)
but you'll be happy, because after all, you know you're doing the right thing lol.
"The Lord is grieved when Christians look down upon one another
for either celebrating or not celebrating Christmas in a particular way.
This is spiritual pride. "

User avatar
JLHPROF
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1087

Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by JLHPROF »

I Nephi 8:10 And it came to pass that I beheld a tree, whose fruit was desirable to make one happy.
11 And it came to pass that I did go forth and partake of the fruit thereof; and I beheld that it was most sweet, above all that I ever before tasted. Yea, and I beheld that the fruit thereof was white, to exceed all the whiteness that I had ever seen.

We read this every year after setting up our tree.
Symbols are whatever you want them to be.
Evergreen for eternal life, the star that led to Christ, the Shepherds crook, the light of Christ.
Everyone can choose what they feel is best, but my Christmas tree is no pagan symbol.

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