Are East Asians a Japhetic people?

For non-mainstream, heterodoxical, esoteric discussions. Request access to the Heretic Group here.
Neophyte
captain of 10
Posts: 17

Are East Asians a Japhetic people?

Post by Neophyte »

This is taking the story of Noah literally, of course. Assuming modern Europeans descend from the lost tribes of Israel, that would imply the Israelites, and Shemitic nations at large, were White.

The darker skinned people of Africa, and presumably Arabia, Australian Aborigines, and Dravidians and such are Hamitic, descending from Ham's wife who was a descendant of Cain, and cursed with dark skin. I say this looking at maps that show a migration history from Africa, through Arabia, India, to Oceania in prehistoric times.

Are East Asians a development of the descendants of Japheth? A possibility I've considered is the Japhetic peoples split and developed separately. The "Old European" type of European in prehistoric times who was generally short, dark haired, and round-headed (I know Madison Grant theorized the so-called "Alpine" race originated in Anatolia or somewhere else in Asia, perhaps even Central Asia), and over time another branch of the Japhetic family in Northeast Asia developed their unique phenotype. Some Northeast Asians have "Armenoid" facial features, like long, prominent, beaklike noses (see the portrait of Oda Nobunaga), I wonder if it doesn't perhaps denote some cousinship with the populations of the Caucuses, another (imo) Japhetic population.

Have any Church writers addressed the origin of the Oriental race? I know there is speculation that the Pacific Islanders, or the Japanese might be descended from Hagoth's adventurers. But if Europeans are Israelites and blacks are descendants of Cain/Ham, and Native Americans were made red skinned through their Lamanite ancestors (and Asian infusion from Siberia,) what, if we take the Bible literally, is the origin of the East Asian race?

User avatar
Robin Hood
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13337
Location: England

Re: Are East Asians a Japhetic people?

Post by Robin Hood »

Neophyte wrote: December 12th, 2021, 12:12 am This is taking the story of Noah literally, of course. Assuming modern Europeans descend from the lost tribes of Israel, that would imply the Israelites, and Shemitic nations at large, were White.

The darker skinned people of Africa, and presumably Arabia, Australian Aborigines, and Dravidians and such are Hamitic, descending from Ham's wife who was a descendant of Cain, and cursed with dark skin. I say this looking at maps that show a migration history from Africa, through Arabia, India, to Oceania in prehistoric times.

Are East Asians a development of the descendants of Japheth? A possibility I've considered is the Japhetic peoples split and developed separately. The "Old European" type of European in prehistoric times who was generally short, dark haired, and round-headed (I know Madison Grant theorized the so-called "Alpine" race originated in Anatolia or somewhere else in Asia, perhaps even Central Asia), and over time another branch of the Japhetic family in Northeast Asia developed their unique phenotype. Some Northeast Asians have "Armenoid" facial features, like long, prominent, beaklike noses (see the portrait of Oda Nobunaga), I wonder if it doesn't perhaps denote some cousinship with the populations of the Caucuses, another (imo) Japhetic population.

Have any Church writers addressed the origin of the Oriental race? I know there is speculation that the Pacific Islanders, or the Japanese might be descended from Hagoth's adventurers. But if Europeans are Israelites and blacks are descendants of Cain/Ham, and Native Americans were made red skinned through their Lamanite ancestors (and Asian infusion from Siberia,) what, if we take the Bible literally, is the origin of the East Asian race?
Australian Aborigines may or may not be decended from Ham, but they were never denied priesthood in the LDS church. It seems to me the priesthood restriction was specifically for those of African descent. Maybe something really bad happened in Africa in the distant past.
The Europeans are basically Gentiles, with Israelite blood mixed in. That is one reason why we can be and are referred to as both. It seems likely that Israelite descent is dominant in the north Europeans, mainly the British Isles and Scandinavia, as well as the north European fringe such as the Netherlands etc.
Asians are dominated with Gentile blood and descended from Japhath. But even here there is at least a sprinking of the blood of Israel, sometimes more.
In fact, it would be hard to find a people anywhere on the earth that do not have some intermixture with Israelite blood and therefore can traced themselves back to Jacob in one way or another.
I believe this is the reason why the priesthood restriction was lifted.

User avatar
ParticleMan
captain of 100
Posts: 756

Re: Are East Asians a Japhetic people?

Post by ParticleMan »

Neophyte wrote: December 12th, 2021, 12:12 am Are East Asians a development of the descendants of Japheth?
....
Have any Church writers addressed the origin of the Oriental race?
....
There's an account concerning a small group of men who were conversing and Joseph Smith observed that each son of Noah was represented, the Chinese man beinig of Japheth.

Neophyte
captain of 10
Posts: 17

Re: Are East Asians a Japhetic people?

Post by Neophyte »

ParticleMan wrote: December 12th, 2021, 2:05 pm
Neophyte wrote: December 12th, 2021, 12:12 am Are East Asians a development of the descendants of Japheth?
....
Have any Church writers addressed the origin of the Oriental race?
....
There's an account concerning a small group of men who were conversing and Joseph Smith observed that each son of Noah was represented, the Chinese man beinig of Japheth.
Oh, very interesting. Please let me know if you recall the source. I'm taking a lot of notes right now.

User avatar
ransomme
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4323

Re: Are East Asians a Japhetic people?

Post by ransomme »

Isn't that why it's called JAPan?

j/k :P

User avatar
Silver Pie
seeker after Christ
Posts: 9514
Location: In the state that doesn't exist

Re: Are East Asians a Japhetic people?

Post by Silver Pie »

Are East Asians a Japhetic people?
I always thought they were.

User avatar
Luke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10920
Location: England

Re: Are East Asians a Japhetic people?

Post by Luke »

Lorin Woolley said that the Chinese were of Shem.

logonbump
captain of 100
Posts: 962

Re: Are East Asians a Japhetic people?

Post by logonbump »

Is China in the Bible?
https://www.thetrumpet.com/7583-is-china-in-the-bible

As Herbert W. Armstrong taught throughout his ministry, Noah’s son Japheth married a woman of the yellow race, and went on to father the Mongoloid people. The Hebrew word Japheth means enlargement, according to The Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary, and a glance at the modern world shows that the Oriental populations have been enlarged and multiplied to an unparalleled degree. Japheth’s descendants have long been the most populous people on Earth, with the bulk living in China, Southeast Asia and Japan.

logonbump
captain of 100
Posts: 962

Re: Are East Asians a Japhetic people?

Post by logonbump »

Is China in the Bible?
https://www.thetrumpet.com/7583-is-china-in-the-bible
Genesis 10:2-5 show that the enlargement of Japheth began with the patriarch himself siring seven sons and an untold number of daughters. Obviously, these sons and daughters were a mix between the Caucasoid and Mongoloid races, the latter of which grew more definitive in subsequent generations. Soon after the dispersion at the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11:8), Japheth’s descendants migrated through Central Asia to the lands they occupy now.
Last edited by logonbump on December 5th, 2022, 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

logonbump
captain of 100
Posts: 962

Re: Are East Asians a Japhetic people?

Post by logonbump »

https://www.thetrumpet.com/7583-is-china-in-the-bible
One of the seven sons of Japheth bears special importance to the prophetic identity of the Chinese and even their nomadic neighbors. That is Magog, the second son of Japheth mentioned in Genesis 10:2.

User avatar
Robin Hood
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13337
Location: England

Re: Are East Asians a Japhetic people?

Post by Robin Hood »

Luke wrote: December 5th, 2022, 6:59 pm Lorin Woolley said that the Chinese were of Shem.
Lorin Woolley clearly didn't know what he was talking about. But then again, why would he?
In prophetic terms he was a nobody.

User avatar
Luke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10920
Location: England

Re: Are East Asians a Japhetic people?

Post by Luke »

Robin Hood wrote: December 6th, 2022, 8:10 am
Luke wrote: December 5th, 2022, 6:59 pm Lorin Woolley said that the Chinese were of Shem.
Lorin Woolley clearly didn't know what he was talking about. But then again, why would he?
In prophetic terms he was a nobody.
In prophetic terms he was more of a prophet than most, if not all, of the people who were living on earth at the time of his ministry.

User avatar
ransomme
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4323

Re: Are East Asians a Japhetic people?

Post by ransomme »

Neophyte wrote: December 12th, 2021, 12:12 am This is taking the story of Noah literally, of course. Assuming modern Europeans descend from the lost tribes of Israel, that would imply the Israelites, and Shemitic nations at large, were White.

The darker skinned people of Africa, and presumably Arabia, Australian Aborigines, and Dravidians and such are Hamitic, descending from Ham's wife who was a descendant of Cain, and cursed with dark skin. I say this looking at maps that show a migration history from Africa, through Arabia, India, to Oceania in prehistoric times.

Are East Asians a development of the descendants of Japheth? A possibility I've considered is the Japhetic peoples split and developed separately. The "Old European" type of European in prehistoric times who was generally short, dark haired, and round-headed (I know Madison Grant theorized the so-called "Alpine" race originated in Anatolia or somewhere else in Asia, perhaps even Central Asia), and over time another branch of the Japhetic family in Northeast Asia developed their unique phenotype. Some Northeast Asians have "Armenoid" facial features, like long, prominent, beaklike noses (see the portrait of Oda Nobunaga), I wonder if it doesn't perhaps denote some cousinship with the populations of the Caucuses, another (imo) Japhetic population.

Have any Church writers addressed the origin of the Oriental race? I know there is speculation that the Pacific Islanders, or the Japanese might be descended from Hagoth's adventurers. But if Europeans are Israelites and blacks are descendants of Cain/Ham, and Native Americans were made red skinned through their Lamanite ancestors (and Asian infusion from Siberia,) what, if we take the Bible literally, is the origin of the East Asian race?
Also, we should be clear neither Cain's curse nor his mark was black skin.

Read the Text:

The curse of Cain, Lamech and the people of Canaan for Shedding Innocent Blood (SIB) + Secret Combinations (SC)/"works of darkness" (yielded) > a Curse on the earth/land:
Cain + SIB & SC --> "be cursed from the earth...When thou tillest the ground it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength." (Moses 5:36-37)
Lamech + SIB & SC --> "God cursed the earth with a sore curse" (Moses 5:56)
People of Canaan + SIB & SC --> "the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever" (Moses 7:8)

IDK why everyone gets so confused on this issue.

Now the pre-flood people of Canaan let's see what happened to them after the curse, which was upon the land:

Moses 7:8 For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.

It reads that "a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan"...on the children, not even upon the doers of the deed which brought the curse. And not even their skin became black per se. Although if the land was barren and hot so conceivably their skin would become darker, but it doesn't change their race to negroid. And the "blackness" was not even specifically their skin. Their "blackness" could be in their countenances, in their culture, etc.

And the pre-flood people have nothing to do with Ham's post-flood son Canaan who was cursed for being an illegitimate son of Ham and Noah's wife.

Also, it should be pointed out that Ham's son Canaan had nothing to do with Egypt. Canaan settled in the Levant and Egypt was a different line from Ham. Remember that Pharaoh was from the posterity of the "woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt, which signifies that which is forbidden;" (Abr. 1:23)

So the question is what curse was in Egypt?
Abr. 1:24 When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land.

But these are different questions to answer from the OP.

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15056

Re: Are East Asians a Japhetic people?

Post by Niemand »

I always understood that Ham was Africa (or North Africa), Japheth Europe and Shem (West) Asia.

However there seems to be evidence that the very black people found in Australia and certain other places have even less to do with African blacks than Europeans have to do with Europeans.

From my limited personal studies of Maori and Polynesian languages, I was intrigued to find that there were a similarities to European languages which I was surprised about. If they have some kind of relation to India that might make sense.

China is more of a mystery. It seems clear that a lot of the Chinese language is highly simplified both phonetically and grammatically. Many words have become similar resulting in their tonal system. Verbal tenses and plurals are non-existent. Very odd, but it means that a lot of words, names and roots have been lost by them.

Yes, I do believe China is in the Bible if only because like America, Russia and Great Britain the nation was, and is, internationally important. (GB much less so these days.) There are possible Old Testament references and some say the dragon in Revelation may be related to them, given it is their national animal.

Other places perhaps mentioned in the Bible include Spain, France, Russia, India (in Apocrypha), Ethiopia, possibly even Sri Lanka.

I discuss some more unexpected Biblical references here, including India.
viewtopic.php?t=65769

User avatar
ParticleMan
captain of 100
Posts: 756

Re: Are East Asians a Japhetic people?

Post by ParticleMan »

Chinese characters are shown to relate to Genesis.

"God in Ancient China":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA-AkJzpKmg

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15056

Re: Are East Asians a Japhetic people?

Post by Niemand »

ParticleMan wrote: December 6th, 2022, 6:42 pm Chinese characters are shown to relate to Genesis.

"God in Ancient China":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA-AkJzpKmg
An hour long if anybody's wondering.

User avatar
Thinker
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13399
Location: The Universe - wherever that is.

Re: Are East Asians a Japhetic people?

Post by Thinker »

Neophyte wrote: December 12th, 2021, 12:12 am This is taking the story of Noah literally, of course….

Are East Asians a development of the descendants of Japheth?
Maybe it’s the other way around considering Chinese outdated Judaism…

Image

User avatar
Luke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10920
Location: England

Re: Are East Asians a Japhetic people?

Post by Luke »

Thinker wrote: December 26th, 2022, 10:17 pm
Neophyte wrote: December 12th, 2021, 12:12 am This is taking the story of Noah literally, of course….

Are East Asians a development of the descendants of Japheth?
Maybe it’s the other way around considering Chinese outdated Judaism…

Image
This is clearly proof of Noah’s ark, and not proof that whoever wrote Noah’s ark ripped off Chinese.

It’s highly unlikely that some Hebrews decided to write the story of Noah’s ark using details from a language they didn’t know.

The Chinese obviously knew of Noah’s ark, seeing that they came after the flood, and based their language off it accordingly.

User avatar
Durzan
The Lord's Trusty Maverick
Posts: 3770
Location: Standing between the Light and the Darkness.

Re: Are East Asians a Japhetic people?

Post by Durzan »

Luke wrote: December 27th, 2022, 1:42 pm
Thinker wrote: December 26th, 2022, 10:17 pm
Neophyte wrote: December 12th, 2021, 12:12 am This is taking the story of Noah literally, of course….

Are East Asians a development of the descendants of Japheth?
Maybe it’s the other way around considering Chinese outdated Judaism…

Image
This is clearly proof of Noah’s ark, and not proof that whoever wrote Noah’s ark ripped off Chinese.

It’s highly unlikely that some Hebrews decided to write the story of Noah’s ark using details from a language they didn’t know.

The Chinese obviously knew of Noah’s ark, seeing that they came after the flood, and based their language off it accordingly.
It's an interesting parallel though that's for sure, but I wouldn't say it's obvious. The makeup of the "large ship" Kanji is coincidental at best without other clear data points to clarify and narrow down the possibilities.

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15056

Re: Are East Asians a Japhetic people?

Post by Niemand »

According to the Japanese dictionary (whose characters are slightly different to Chinese), it is made up of three components:

* 舟 which is a boat. You can see this is developed from a canoe with two people in it.
* 八 meaning 8.
* 口 meaning a mouth. This is also used in the sense of exits and entrances (which I remember seeing on signs in Japan.)

User avatar
ParticleMan
captain of 100
Posts: 756

Re: Are East Asians a Japhetic people?

Post by ParticleMan »

On connections between ancient Israel and ancient Japan:
https://web.archive.org/web/20190516235 ... ljapan.htm

I also have several papers, which may or may not be on this site, referenced by the author (Mark Riddle) in his "A-UN" presentation at the 2010 BYU Studies Symposium.

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15056

Re: Are East Asians a Japhetic people?

Post by Niemand »

I've always had a soft spot for north east Asian art. Here's Jesus in several Japanese paintings.
Attachments
e642ac04-26c7-4f08-b872-43c83cd1d3c1.jpg
e642ac04-26c7-4f08-b872-43c83cd1d3c1.jpg (93.29 KiB) Viewed 1005 times
il_570xN.388405661_3a9p.jpg
il_570xN.388405661_3a9p.jpg (148.3 KiB) Viewed 1005 times
2aebfb9744fd78eca628613096e471be.jpg
2aebfb9744fd78eca628613096e471be.jpg (65.74 KiB) Viewed 1005 times

User avatar
Thinker
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13399
Location: The Universe - wherever that is.

Re: Are East Asians a Japhetic people?

Post by Thinker »

Luke wrote: December 27th, 2022, 1:42 pm
Thinker wrote: December 26th, 2022, 10:17 pm
Neophyte wrote: December 12th, 2021, 12:12 am This is taking the story of Noah literally, of course….

Are East Asians a development of the descendants of Japheth?
Maybe it’s the other way around considering Chinese outdated Judaism…

Image
This is clearly proof of Noah’s ark, and not proof that whoever wrote Noah’s ark ripped off Chinese.

It’s highly unlikely that some Hebrews decided to write the story of Noah’s ark using details from a language they didn’t know.

The Chinese obviously knew of Noah’s ark, seeing that they came after the flood, and based their language off it accordingly.
Religion as we know it today, borrowed from various cultures and languages. So it’s not too far of a stretch to consider the possibility of “the wise men of the East” (symbolically at least) being from China & some bilingual sharing.

Chinese is older than Hebrew:

“Some samples of "oracle bone" writing with Chinese characters date back to at least 1500 BCE, with symbols etched onto turtle shells and animals bones. However, recent archaeological discoveries indicate the Chinese writing system to have originated over five thousand years ago.

Archaeologists working in the ancient Near East say that the Hebrew language began as a dialect of the Canaanite language and developed as a distinct language a little before 900 BCE.
Based on this evidence, Chinese writing easily predates Hebrew writing…”


I read that Judaism borrowed from Hinduism, so maybe Judaism borrowed from others like Chinese stories, &/or Hinduism maybe borrowed from Chinese too.

Here’s another:

Image

User avatar
Cruiserdude
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5680
Location: SEKS

Re: Are East Asians a Japhetic people?

Post by Cruiserdude »

Niemand wrote: December 29th, 2022, 3:00 pm I've always had a soft spot for north east Asian art. Here's Jesus in several Japanese paintings.
Hadn't ever seen that style before (or hadn't noticed the distinction if I had seen it) and I agree, very well done👍

User avatar
ransomme
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4323

Re: Are East Asians a Japhetic people?

Post by ransomme »

This may be of interest here.

Post Reply